Rank in order - Cochet, Nusslein, Karel Koželuh

[timnz]

Cochet - seemed to do much better as an amateur than when he turned Pro in the early 30's. All up he had 11 majors (World Hard Court Championship, World Covered Court Championship, French Championships, Wimbledon, US Championships, French Pro).

Nusslein - seemed to be amazingly good from his early 20's in the pro's (in the early 1930's). He won the World Professional Championships in Berlin as well as many other top Pro tournaments.

Karel Koželuh - older than Nusslein by quite a bit - but won very many of the Bristol Cup championship in the 1920's which was the top Professional tournament in those days. In the 1930's he won 4 Pro. Grand Slam events as well.

So what order would you place them?

 

[pc1]

Cochet - seemed to do much better as an amateur than when he turned Pro in the early 30's. All up he had 11 majors (World Hard Court Championship, World Covered Court Championship, French Championships, Wimbledon, US Championships, French Pro).

Nusslein - seemed to be amazingly good from his early 20's in the pro's (in the early 1930's). He won the World Professional Championships in Berlin as well as many other top Pro tournaments.

Karel Koželuh - older than Nusslein by quite a bit - but won very many of the Bristol Cup championship in the 1920's which was the top Professional tournament in those days. In the 1930's he won 4 Pro. Grand Slam events as well.

So what order would you place them?

I think it's pretty clear to me at least that Kozeluh is third on the list. It's hard to pick between Cochet and Nusslein. Cochet has been called the best ever by him, the most natural talent but Nusslein has been called the best player 365 days a year by Tilden although I wonder if Tilden took in account leap years. Nusslein also defeated Cochet every set they played but Cochet was older than by eight years and a few months.

My best guess would be 1. Nusslein 2. Cochet and 3. Kozeluh. This is based on average level of play at their peak. I just think Nusslein was a more solid stroke player than Cochet overall with a little more power. Tomorrow I may change my mind and reverse number 1 and number 2.

 

[timnz]

Kozeluh - why third?

I think it's pretty clear to me at least that Kozeluh is third on the list. It's hard to pick between Cochet and Nusslein. Cochet has been called the best ever by him, the most natural talent but Nusslein has been called the best player 365 days a year by Tilden although I wonder if Tilden took in account leap years. Nusslein also defeated Cochet every set they played but Cochet was older than by eight years and a few months.

My best guess would be 1. Nusslein 2. Cochet and 3. Kozeluh. This is based on average level of play at their peak. I just think Nusslein was a more solid stroke player than Cochet overall with a little more power. Tomorrow I may change my mind and reverse number 1 and number 2.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...cle/kozeluh-routs-nusslein-wins-pro-net-crown

Even though Kozeluh was 15 years older than Nusslein he could still from time to time beat Hans at big tournaments (see above link) - so why clearly third?

 

[70sHollywood]

I think it's pretty clear to me at least that Kozeluh is third on the list. It's hard to pick between Cochet and Nusslein. Cochet has been called the best ever by him, the most natural talent but Nusslein has been called the best player 365 days a year by Tilden although I wonder if Tilden took in account leap years. Nusslein also defeated Cochet every set they played but Cochet was older than by eight years and a few months.

My best guess would be 1. Nusslein 2. Cochet and 3. Kozeluh. This is based on average level of play at their peak. I just think Nusslein was a more solid stroke player than Cochet overall with a little more power. Tomorrow I may change my mind and reverse number 1 and number 2.

Interesting. I recently listed my top 10 inter-war players (in no order) and did not include Nusslein. Would you say he is top 10 for that era? I wasn't sure between him and Von Cramm.

I think the Pro's were clearly not as strong as the amateurs until at least the mid-30s when Vines joined. Also, those Pro Slams won by Nusslein in 37, 38 did not feature either Vines or Perry. I don't think Nusslein was ever considered among the top 2 in the world.

By the time Cochet turned Pro he was into his 30's, which is post-prime in that era, though he was routinely thrashed by the very top players, so it's hard to judge just how good he was. I also wonder if he perhaps benefited in the late 20's from the early retirement of Lacoste, who was a few years younger yet reached number 1 earlier. For what it's worth I would definitely put Lacoste above all three of the guys in the original question.

 

[pc1]

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...cle/kozeluh-routs-nusslein-wins-pro-net-crown

Even though Kozeluh was 15 years older than Nusslein he could still from time to time beat Hans at big tournaments (see above link) - so why clearly third?

Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my choices but here's my reasoning, I think Tilden beat Kozeluh so easily in their head to head tour despite being a few years older left me with with feeling that Kozeluh was relatively easy for even an older Tilden to beat. The Collins Encyclopedia has Tilden winning 63 to 13 while other sources have Tilden winning 50 to 17. As you well know Tilden was defeated by Vines a few years later by 47 to 26. Nusslein, while he lost to Vines most of the time did defeat Vines a decent percentage generally during his (Nusslein's) prime and winning an extremely high percentage on tour. Nusslein was ranked by some as number one as early as 1933 when he was only 23. And Tilden called Nusslein the finest player for level of play for 365 days a year which was very influential on my decision to rank him over Kozeluh.

All of this coupled with the fact Nusslein was battling Vines toe to toe for the best player in the Pro Ranks in the early 1930's before losing out to Vines.

Cochet was great no doubt about it and I could never see Cochet getting crushed at his peak to even a younger Tilden by such a decisive margin that Kozeluh lost.

Even though a player may be a lot older than another it doesn't mean that at times the former player greatest level doesn't come through on occasion. Don Budge in his late thirties defeated Gonzalez in one match on tour. But who would you bet on to win a head to head series with Budge at age 38 and Gonzalez at the same age? I would bet on Pancho Gonzalez.

Yes Kozeluh was a great player and of course I can be wrong in my opinion but I felt from the information I know about him that he was a clear third. But you have some excellent points so perhaps it's far more unclear than I thought.

 

[kiki]

Cochet was the man Tilden feared the most, when at his own peak
Speaks volume about him.Lacoste never ever made such an impression on Tilden.

 

[70sHollywood]

Cochet was 4-1 v Tilden in slams and 3-1 in Davis Cup, which is quite comprehensive. It would suggest a pretty big decline by the time he was getting beaten by Tilden in the Pro's. I think Cochet is definitely number 1 here.

I actually think the 20's are underrated. The depth may not have been there but the top end seemed every bit as strong as the 30's and 40's. Cochet and Lacoste have a more than reasonable claim to be ranked above the Vines/Perry/Budge trio.

 

[pc1]

Cochet was 4-1 v Tilden in slams and 3-1 in Davis Cup, which is quite comprehensive. It would suggest a pretty big decline by the time he was getting beaten by Tilden in the Pro's. I think Cochet is definitely number 1 here.

I actually think the 20's are underrated. The depth may not have been there but the top end seemed every bit as strong as the 30's and 40's. Cochet and Lacoste have a more than reasonable claim to be ranked above the Vines/Perry/Budge trio.

Tilden was not "The Tilden" when he was losing to Cochet in majors. I believe Tilden hurt his knee badly in a Davis Cup match in I think 1926 that hampered him the rest of his life. It was so bad you could hear the loud clicking in his knee as he ran.

I do agree with you that the 1920's were underrated. Borotra was also pretty terrific also as was Bill Johnston, Dick Williams among others.