sonicare
Hall of Fame
Hey haters
I would rather trust larry stefanki who doesn't have a race in the horse and has forgotten more about tennis than you will ever know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQ92DTWEbc&feature=player_detailpage#t=30s
Rank the greatest strokes of all time:
- Thread starter The Dark Knight
- Start date
Hey haters
I would rather trust larry stefanki who doesn't have a race in the horse and has forgotten more about tennis than you will ever know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQ92DTWEbc&feature=player_detailpage#t=30s
(Just analyzing the men's game)
1- Forehand - Federer, Nadal, Lendl
2- Backhand-Agassi, Djokovic
3- 1st serve - Ivanisevic
4- 2nd serve - Sampras
5- Volley - Edberg, McEnroe
6- Speed - Nadal
7- Mental - Borg
8- Overhead - Sampras
9- Serve and Volley - Edberg
10- Footwork - Federer
11- Return of Serve - Agassi, Djokovic
12- Disguise - McEnroe
13- Touch - McEnroe, Federer
14- Consistency - Borg
1- Forehand - Federer, Nadal, Lendl
2- Backhand-Agassi, Djokovic
3- 1st serve - Ivanisevic
4- 2nd serve - Sampras
5- Volley - Edberg, McEnroe
6- Speed - Nadal
7- Mental - Borg
8- Overhead - Sampras
9- Serve and Volley - Edberg
10- Footwork - Federer
11- Return of Serve - Agassi, Djokovic
12- Disguise - McEnroe
13- Touch - McEnroe, Federer
14- Consistency - Borg
VetoRight
Rookie
Forehand : Nadal
Backhand: Djokovic
First serve: Raonic
2nd serve: Karlovic
Volley: Edberg
Speed: in baseline: Nadal, in service box/net: Becker
Mental: 2011 Djokovic but overall Nadal has best mental stroke
Overhead: Edberg
Serve n volley: Edberg
Slice: Nadal
Topspin: Nadal the king of spin
Flat: Del Potro
Return of serve: Federer
Backhand: Djokovic
First serve: Raonic
2nd serve: Karlovic
Volley: Edberg
Speed: in baseline: Nadal, in service box/net: Becker
Mental: 2011 Djokovic but overall Nadal has best mental stroke
Overhead: Edberg
Serve n volley: Edberg
Slice: Nadal
Topspin: Nadal the king of spin
Flat: Del Potro
Return of serve: Federer
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paulorenzo
Hall of Fame
aren't rafa's return of serve stats skewed by his superior baseline play?
are we talking about the return of serve as a stroke or service return games?
if were talking ROS as a stroke, i think nadal would barely miss that list.
The-Champ
Legend
nobody approaches the net faster than Edberg. His vertical movement speed has not been replicated, not by sampras, rafter etc. I don't believe Mac was faster than Edberg to the net.
Anyway, Rafa has a brutal fh but Fed wins this, there is no contest really.
The-Champ
Legend
It's the best fh I've seen since 1989. Prior to that, it's hard to imagine someone better but who knows. We have historians in forum though who could answer that.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
That's a good point. Stats don't tell the whole story. Perhaps it's a combination of both.
If we look at ROS merely as a stroke, we would probably need to divide this into 2 categories -- Fh ROS and Bh ROS. After all, the ROS is a special case of the larger category, groundstrokes.
But the ROS may be considered more than just a stroke. Those who excel at returning serve are able to read and react to serves better than most. They are able to handle challenging serves and, in many cases, neutralize them.
It could be argued that Novak has a more aggressive/offensive ROS, in general, than Rafa. However, they are nearly equally effective. Perhaps, Rafa a bit more so than Novak. They are both able to hit returns, a good percentage of the time, that are not weak replies that the server can easily put away. By hitting effective returns, they can often offset the advantage of the serve and stay in the point.
The bottom line is that both Rafa and Novak are very effective returners of serve.
paulorenzo
Hall of Fame
yes good points. i basically agree with everything you've said, but i guess i'd like to elaborate on my comment i made about the ROS as a stroke vs return games won stat and why the stats regarding return games won doesn't really reflect effectiveness of the return as a stroke. also elaborate on why i feel djokovic is a better returner than rafa. i'm not saying you disagree, but in any case, i think i've arrived at some solid conclusions i want to share.
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i guess i view the return of serve as a stroke that can be used to get free points, set up free points (a 1,2 punch), or force an error without making an error of your own. much like how the server utilizes his serve to win a point or set himself up for a forehand winner/volley, the returner utilizes the return to do the same thing.
rafa is very good at neutralizing serves. it's very good at helping him set up his ground game, but after his return is returned by the server, unless he can put his opponent's reply to his return away for a winner, his return is no longer affecting the out come of the rally since it's now all up to his groundgame. this is especially true if rafa hit's a neutralizing return since the return is neither aggressive nor poor, just a stroke to make the rally become immediately neutral. as far as neutralizing the serve using the return of serve(as a single stroke), i would say he and djokovic are just about on par right now. both are able to get to just about any serve and immediately neutralize the rally fairly well. it's hard not to mention federer, since for most of his career he's been slicing back big serves with great placement as well, but he was scarcely aggressive, even with his forehand in his prime. but of those three, djokovic is the better returner since he's able to be so good defensively but can often hit winners or force errors with his return.
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i found a list showcasing the 10 players in the last 20 years with the greatest service return games won percentages. although it was published on bleacher report, the stats seemed solid since they were actual, objective stats.
# player name /%of ROS games won/ matches
1. Guillermo Coria /35/ 332
2. Rafael Nadal /33/ 652
3. Alberto Berasategui /32/ 477
4. Filippo Volandri /32/ 333
5. David Ferrer /32/ 631
6. Andy Murray /32/ 426
7. Jordi Arrese /32/ 246
8. Andre Agassi /32/ 899
9. Thomas Muster /32/ 625
10. Michael Chang /32/ 810
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/911819-the-best-returners-of-the-last-twenty-years
it lists coria as number 1 winning 35 % return games, nadal at no.2 winning 33% and 8 others at 32.xx% including murray and aggassi who are both good returners. all of the players on that list are great if not world class defensive baseline players. perhaps agassi is more of an aggressive baseliner than the rest and aside from murray, is the only one to find most of his success on hardcourts. however, of that list, i've only heard of agassi and murray being heralded as having great returns, the rest are just decent/good returners with stellar defensive games. some other interesting numbers i've found on the atp site:
djokovic with 31% career return games won
connors 17% (granted connors played with wood+gut)
federer 27%
hewitt 21%
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it's always hard to compare players who didn't play in the same era since there is no constant control to relate to. that said, if we are talking about making something happen just by purely returning the opponent's serve, not returning groundstrokes in a rally that's already 4+ shots long, i'd have to second your notion of agassi as having the one of the greatest returns(in my eyes the greatest), since he is able to hang with the defensive guys who have great return games won percentages, but can also anticipate serves and crack returns like no other.
unlike a number of others on the bleacher report list, he doesn't wait for serves 10 feet behind the baseline, he is able to react while practically on the baseline. with that in mind, that's where i think nadal falls short to his great-returner-contempories djokovic and murray. when recieving, nadal returns from a much farther distance away from the baseline compared to djokovic and murray(murray starts from behind the baseline but moves up to make contact close to the baseline). as you said those who excel at returning serve are able to read and react to serves better than most. again, i agree with most everything you've said, this is essentially just some conclusions i came to upon digging up some more info.
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Your opinion was immediately void the moment you said Nadal has a greater overhead than Sampras. That implies Nadal is at the net often enough to be lobbed, which further implies you clearly have never watched tennis.
Flash O'Groove
Hall of Fame
Very interesting reflexion. Thank you.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You have made some very good points as well. I had forgotten about Murray. Not quite a s good as Nole and Rafa, but higher stats that Federer, who is also a pretty decent returner. However, there are a couple of errors in the stats that you provided. Also, the Bleacher Report covered only 20 years so it missed most of Connors playing days.
The stats that you provided for Hewitt and Connors are only for their last year of play. Note that Hewitt is past his prime and is currently ranked outside of the top 200. His career stats for ROS games won is 31%. If you look at the years from 2001 to 2006, he was at 33-34% (except for 2005). Have also got to consider that he has had foot surgery and hip surgery (twice?) during his career.
Unfortunately, the ATP stats only go back to 1991; so it has missed the prime Connors years. The 17% stat that you posted is only for his last year, 1996. At 43, going on 44, he was well past his prime at that time. The career stats that they show for him probably only cover from 91 thru 96. In 1991, Connors was up at 32%.
I suspect that his percentage was even higher than this during his prime. Consider that Jimmy had one of the weakest serves on the men's tour yet managed to be on the top of the heap for quite a long time. His amazing ROS game compensated for his less-than-stellar serve.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ Also consider that Agassi's career spans 20 years. He played quite a bit longer than his peers (Sampras, Chang, Courier, etc). His stats in his latter years reflects some ups and downs. His ROS games won stat for '99 and '03 were up to 34%. If you look at the 4 years from '92 thru '95, he was at a phenomenal 34-37%. This is undoubtedly how he got his rep as one of the best returners of serve of all time. Even during the years from '96 thru '02 , he was often at 31-32%.
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The Dark Knight
Legend
Ooops
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i get it -- nadal never gets lobbed because he does not play S & V tennis. i must've been imagining all the times when Nadal hit an approach shot that put his opponent out of position, that the only reply his opponent could muster was a lob... must've been my dream.
get your head out of pete's rear and watch tennis today, you might learn a thing or two.
you mean the ones who insist that 80mph bh slices were hit in the yore? good luck with that
10is
Professional
you mean the ones who insist that 80mph bh slices were hit in the yore? good luck with that
Exactly! Historians? LOL! More like story-ians and obsessive idol worshipping fanfic scribes from what I have observed.
The-Champ
Legend
you mean the ones who insist that 80mph bh slices were hit in the yore? good luck with that
lol! well, they might have exaggerated a little bit on that one, but it doesn't necessarily mean they would do it all the time
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Don't scoff. If you look at the stats, Nadal's ROS game is more effective than Djoker's this year and slightly better for their respective careers. Did you bother to read what I wrote previously? You may have a different criteria for judging the quality of ROS, but it would probably have to be subjective rather than based on cold hard facts.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Here are the ROS percentages for Nadal vs Djokovic for 2012:
RN .. ND
39 .. 36 ... 1st serve return pts won
55 .. 57 ... 2nd serve return pts won
45 .. 44 ... serve return points won
49 .. 45 ... break points converted
39 .. 35 ... return games won
Djoko is a bit better against 2nd serves but all other stats indicate that Nadal is more effective on returns.
RN .. ND
39 .. 36 ... 1st serve return pts won
55 .. 57 ... 2nd serve return pts won
45 .. 44 ... serve return points won
49 .. 45 ... break points converted
39 .. 35 ... return games won
Djoko is a bit better against 2nd serves but all other stats indicate that Nadal is more effective on returns.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
paulorenzo
Hall of Fame
i can't believe i messed up on hewitt, i knew it seemed a bit odd his career return games won percentages was low. his last years on tour have been poor.
and i should have considered the atp not collecting stats before 1991. it's a shame we don't know connor's true return games won stat, and other stats for that matter. thanks for pointing that out.
you state that agassi's stats have been somewhat skewed by his inconsistent career which i agree with. in terms of return games won percentages, coria is ranked 1st. the reason i provided the bleacher report stat was to dispel the return of games won percentages as an indicator for good returns. it isn't. agassi and perhaps murray are the only ones on that list with world class returns. everyone else is just phenomenal defensively. coria has never had a phenomenal return, even in his prime in 2003 where his return game percentages were astounding:
40% 1st Serve Return Points Won
53% 2nd Serve Return Points Won
683 Break Points Opportunities
49% Break Points Converted
855 Return Games Played
39% Return Games Won
46% Return Points Won
55% Total Points Won
through the stats you've provided, nadal definitely has the best return game percentages(something many have already known, having been near the top of that list every year), but does that mean he has the best return?
to play devil's advocate, when looking at return of serve as a single stroke (i defined what i consider a return stroke is in post #60), who do you think has the better return, djokovic, rafa, or murray?
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ I reject your reality and substitute my own. :twisted:
All kidding aside, by your criteria I would agree that Novak, particularly in 2011, had the best return. This year, thus far, his return effectiveness has dropped off a little. His ability to hit return winners or elicit weak replies when he returns a 2nd serve is probably still the best.
Against 1st serves, I'd still say that Nadal is more effective. But then my criteria is different than yours. I am looking more at Rafa's ability to neutralize serves. Your criteria (and the criteria of others) are equally valid. Perhaps one might look at placement, speed and spin when rating a player's ROS. If I were to use these parameters, I'd put more emphasis on placement. But when you have a player like Rafa, who can put a truckload of spin on the ball, it can produce a very heavy ball which can offset the server's advantage.
All kidding aside, by your criteria I would agree that Novak, particularly in 2011, had the best return. This year, thus far, his return effectiveness has dropped off a little. His ability to hit return winners or elicit weak replies when he returns a 2nd serve is probably still the best.
Against 1st serves, I'd still say that Nadal is more effective. But then my criteria is different than yours. I am looking more at Rafa's ability to neutralize serves. Your criteria (and the criteria of others) are equally valid. Perhaps one might look at placement, speed and spin when rating a player's ROS. If I were to use these parameters, I'd put more emphasis on placement. But when you have a player like Rafa, who can put a truckload of spin on the ball, it can produce a very heavy ball which can offset the server's advantage.
start the lawnmower
New User
Forehand nadal
backhand murray/djoker
serve isner/sampras
volley edberg
slice nadal
overhead sampras/nadal
return nadal/dkoker/agassi
footwork borg/nadal
fitness borg/lendl/nadal
backhand murray/djoker
serve isner/sampras
volley edberg
slice nadal
overhead sampras/nadal
return nadal/dkoker/agassi
footwork borg/nadal
fitness borg/lendl/nadal
paulorenzo
Hall of Fame
absolutely, that's why he's so good on first serve return points, he immediately forces neutrality upon the opponent, which is a bad place to be against rafa.
sonicare
Hall of Fame
I don't particularly give a rats ass what you wrote.
The return of serve is a standalone shot and in that category, Djokovic is on a different planet to nadal.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ Bury you head in the sand much? Way to keep an open mind. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. That doesn't make other perspectives or POV invalid. Perhaps as you get older/wiser, you'll realize that all is not black and white.
I made my case for why I consider Rafa's return game to be noteworthy. However, you appear to be very dismissive about the evidence that I provided. Sure, Novak's return can be quite a weapon. In the larger picture, however, it is not more effective than Rafa's return. What qualities about Nole's return do you believe make his return so superior? Speed, placement, spin, etc? Can you articulate please = details?
Note: The ROS is not a really single stroke. It is at least 2 different strokes -- Fh ROS and Bh ROS. But, as I see it, it is even more than just another 2 strokes. Why give it a separate category if it's just FHs and BHs? There is more to consider.
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I made my case for why I consider Rafa's return game to be noteworthy. However, you appear to be very dismissive about the evidence that I provided. Sure, Novak's return can be quite a weapon. In the larger picture, however, it is not more effective than Rafa's return. What qualities about Nole's return do you believe make his return so superior? Speed, placement, spin, etc? Can you articulate please = details?
Note: The ROS is not a really single stroke. It is at least 2 different strokes -- Fh ROS and Bh ROS. But, as I see it, it is even more than just another 2 strokes. Why give it a separate category if it's just FHs and BHs? There is more to consider.
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billnepill
Hall of Fame
Moonball: Nadal
10is
Professional
I was too young to follow tennis in the early 90s but having watched videos of that era I'm surprised more people aren't citing Michael Stich as having a great 1st serve. He probably had the smoothest service action I have ever seen of any player, almost languid, yet his serves were extremely powerful (almost Goran territory I would venture). I "think" I also remember hearing that Becker considered Stich the best server he had ever faced.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
That, my friend, is comedy gold.
Whoever even considers Nadal to be within a cooee of Sampras or Federer of that matter in the overhead or volleying department is showing their lack of critical analysis ability. It's one thing looking purely at stats but, as Nadal demonstrates, if you only even come to the net for putaways, of course your volleying numbers will look good.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Which is why it's dubious to compare the stats of people like Djokovic with Agassi or even Federer for that matter - he hasn't had the twilight years of his career yet to soften his numbers.
The career win-loss ratio is the big one which is super misleading. As Nadal is starting to see now (the last year) once you've got some better competition or go on an average run like he did - not winning a title for 8-9 months - your career numbers get affected really quickly.
i start watching tennis just a couple years ago.. so, thats my greatest in each category.. oh, theres one more, athleticism -monfils
Tennis_Bum
Professional
No, McEnroe's serve and volley is definitely not on par with Sampras, simply because Sampras's serve dominates his opponents unlike Mac's serve is actually taking advantage of the lefty slice. I would say Mac is a better volleyer than Sampras, but because of Sampras's serve, he gets more easy volleys than Mac.
I agree with Djoko's return and backhand better than Connors by a big margin. I don't think Connors flat backhand would hold up well against today's game because he would make too many errors.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Well said. Perhaps it would be a bit more meaningful if we looked at the best 5 years or so of a players career for some of these stats. These stats don't tell the whole story, but they do have us some sense of a player's strengths/weaknesses during their prime years.
