its about match ups , all the threats lost earlier or faced each other. They may not win but can put up some more resistance against the injured warrior than clowns like rublev or paul
Rank the level of Novak Djokovic's SF/F opponents in slam wins since 2020
- Thread starter weakera
- Start date
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Fair enough they may have taken a set or did a bit better. You have point but still feel Djokovic would win quite comfortably
hope zverev can reach his pre injury level, he has the game there if he can cut out the double faults
Julius Caesar
Professional
They range from poor to fair or injured. Mostly mug level tbh.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I hope so too. As a Zverev at his best is great for the sport.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
So what are all the ones you disagree with champ? Feel free to chip in with your own slam-by-slam assessment! Instead of throwing hen pecks from the sidelines.
Nadal was clearly the better outdoor HC player on the year and beat Djoko a few weeks prior. Yes, it would have been a tough match to call in real time...but what about RG 21? No doubt you'd have pencilled it in as a loss to Nadal there for Djoko considering he was riding a five-match losing streak to Nadal on clay. Same goes for W 11...Rafa had a 20-match Wimby win streak going into the final, so that's another one that would be tough to call in real time. I'm sure you'd have given the hypo-match to Nadal if Djoko lost before the final lol. I'd say it evens out in that regard.
Nadal was at prime-peak form for that entire six year period (I'd include '07, but as Fed won three majors that year I could see why Rafans want to be stingy), so how exactly is that surprising? Djokovic was in Martinville from 2009-10 and not quite at his peak in 08 either. Of course if you take a GOAT contender at his peak you'd expect him to trample over the other contenders unless there's a perfect overlap in prime, which there wasn't.
Even so, Djokovic was a respectable 15-16 against him in that time.
No? Not that I'd advocate doing so, but take out 2010 and Djokovic has the narrow H2H advantage, they're tied in Masters, YE #1's, Djoko leads 3-0 in YEC's and Nadal has a one-slam edge. Again I see no reason why we'd exclude it, but try to be a bit more precise with your statements mmkay?
Again you can feel free to opine on which ones you disagree with:
AO -
2008 - Djokovic
2009 - Nadal
2010 - Djokovic
2011 - Djokovic
2012 - Djokovic
2013 - N/A
RG -
2008 - Nadal
2009 - Nadal
2010 - Nadal
2011 - Inconclusive
2012 - Nadal
2013 - Nadal
W -
2008 - Nadal
2009 - N/A
2010 - Nadal
2011 - Djokovic
2012 - Djokovic
2013 - Djokovic
USO -
2008 - Djokovic
2009 - Djokovic
2010 - Nadal
2011 - Djokovic
2012 - N/A
2013 - Nadal
Anyway, I rushed and miscounted the first time, it's 10-10-1. Not too bad given that it's Nadal's literal best six year period...and that's just in slams they both competed in.
Nadal's best 6 years as an argument against him...
Ridiculous! The fact his best six years were during the strong era speaks volumes to the fact he was the most successful when you consider who his rivals were...
What's Djok's best 6 year period? 2015-2021 if we exclude 2017? Lol who were his rivals during that time?
Yes you take out 2010 they're equal with masters and YE#1... but you're wrong about h2h, Nadal still leads 4-3 ... regardless, Nadal still has this very significant edge... it's called more slams! Even it is only by 1, the fact we're taking out 3 that Nadal won during that time.. it's quite clear Rafa was the better player. So he's still ahead on the success counter mmmmmkay Mr Garrison?
I wonder what Nadal's success rate from 08-13 would have been if Twitter gen were his main rivals... lol it'd be an absolute blood bath...
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Thiem at AO is a higher level than Nadal at RG????
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
i wanna see djokovic earn his slams battling the best younger players. 23 ao draw completely sucked an fell apart. hoping rg and wimbledon will be better with nadal coming back into form
Agree. We want to see these players being challenged and having to produce their best tennis.
TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
it’s not “against” him. It’s “against” the idea of taking any H2H at face value without inspecting the circumstances that led to it. If you have any issue with my slam-by-slam assessment of form, come up with your own instead of impotently chirping.
In terms of form, clearly 2011-16.
Glad you admitted your error. Friendly reminder about Djoko’s 3 extra YEC’s. Regardless, I don’t care if you keep ‘10 in. Just don’t speak so loosely next time.
I was referring to their overall H2H.
I’ve said many times before that Nadal’s best run of form was from 08-13 (again, it’s actually 07-13, but papa’s being nice). Point is it makes sense that he’d be the most successful player from a period that directly overlaps with what’s basically the entirety of his peak. Or do you deny that Nadal spent more time in his prime from those years than Djokovic?
It’s equally odd that you treat that six year period as a monolith. 2010 was weak and Murray/Federer were almost completely absent from the equation in ‘13 in the period of the year that Nadal had success in. The strongest individual campaign was ‘11 from Djokovic, which was better than Nadal’s best year despite the competition being just as strong/stronger. You arbitrarily choose to start and finish from those years because they directly align with Nadal’s peak. The walls are closing in lol. Sad because I’m not even a Nadal fan yet I can acknowledge that he has a case as the better player (and I could make a better one than you, in my sleep) but this ain’t it lol.
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The_Order
G.O.A.T.
it’s not “against” him. It’s “against” the idea of taking any H2H at face value without inspecting the circumstances that led to it. If you have any issue with my slam-by-slam assessment of form, come up with your own instead of impotently chirping.
In terms of form, clearly 2011-16.
Glad you admitted your error. Friendly reminder about Djoko’s 3 extra YEC’s. Regardless, I don’t care if you keep ‘10 in. Just don’t speak so loosely next time.
I was referring to their overall H2H.
I’ve said many times before that Nadal’s best run of form was from 08-13 (again, it’s actually 07-13, but papa’s being nice). Point is it makes sense that he’d be the most successful player from a period that directly overlaps with what’s basically the entirety of his peak. Or do you deny that Nadal spent more time in his prime from those years than Djokovic?
It’s equally odd that you treat that six year period as a monolith. 2010 was weak and Murray/Federer were almost completely absent from the equation in ‘13 in the period of the year that Nadal had success in. The strongest individual campaign was ‘11 from Djokovic, which was better than Nadal’s best year despite the competition being just as strong/stronger. You arbitrarily choose to start and finish from those years because they directly align with Nadal’s peak. The walls are closing in lol. Sad because I’m not even a Nadal fan yet I can acknowledge that he has a case as the better player (and I could make a better one than you, in my sleep) but this ain’t it lol.
It's not an error to say Nadal was the most successful given he has the extra slam. Djok's 3 YEC then we should count Nadal's OSG - especially given he beat Djok on the way to that gold, so yeah he's not clipping Nadal anyway. Case closed.
2013 had Nadal and Djok both dominating the tour, both had over 20 top 10 wins, when is the last time that happened?
Not to mention a resurgent Del Potro and the almost "completely absent" Murray you speak of got to the AO final and won Wimbledon and LOL
It's not arbitrary... by 2008 Djok won his first major and Murray started to emerge. 07 was pretty decent, Nadal's RG07 run was pretty tough had to beat a bunch of former/future slam champs, then Nadal at Wimbledon was a great win for Fed but Djok in his first slam final was a nervous mess choking so many set points and the AO had Fed in great form but Gonzo was a pretty meh final opponent.
You can dream up all you want in your sleep, the fact remains 08-13 was the strong era and Nadal was the most successful with the most epic slam wins to boot against his fellow big 3 rivals:
AO09: def Federer #2
RG12: def Djok #1
WIM08: def Federer #1
US13: def Djok #1
Djok must be said has a good case too
AO12: def Nadal #2
RG: N/A
WIM11: def Nadal #1
US11: def Nadal #1
But then again, the fact remains Nadal almost won the double career slam during that time frame as well... came up short v Djok in AO12.
Had the guy not been hampered with injuries he'd have had a very good chance at WIM09, US12 and US14... even AO13 he'd have been an outside shot as well.
He missed 4 slams during that era and still won more than Fed or Djok even if you take his most successful year out...
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal was the most successful in the 2008-2013 “strong era” (which is itself misleading because it excludes a strong year like 2007 and includes a clearly worse one like 2010) not necessarily because he was the best at stamping out strong competition (he could be but not for this reason) but because that period overlaps almost perfectly with his prime. We all accept that Nadal’s prime years were 2008-2013, excluding parts of 2009 and 2012 of course. He was at his best for nearly the whole period, then. Fed’s, however, stopped after 2009 and Djokovic’s only started in 2011, so they did not have their entire prime periods covered by the “strong era.”
For an actual one-to-one comparison between these players’ primes, you would probably need to put both 2004-2009 Fed and 2011-2016 Djokovic in that 2008-2013 era.
For an actual one-to-one comparison between these players’ primes, you would probably need to put both 2004-2009 Fed and 2011-2016 Djokovic in that 2008-2013 era.
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TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
The errors were the specific things that I bothered to correct. I’ve now probably told you 5-6 times spanning several threads that Nadal was the most successful player from 2008-2013, so of course that’s not an error. Do try keeping up lol.
So basically a weaker version of ‘07 then?
Here is the thing I actually said:
“Murray/Federer were almost completely absent from the equation in ‘13 in the period of the year that Nadal had success in”
Highlighted, bolded and italicized for your benefit. Now let’s see how you misread that one.
It is though. Djokovic and Murray took a step up in ‘08, but Federer took a huge step down, and the indoor season as a whole sucked compared to the previous year. No qualms with anyone calling ‘08 stronger, but the difference is marginal at best. The winner levels were higher in at least 2 of the 4 majors and comparable in another one. Hence it’s arbitrary as all hell considering ‘07 was stronger than ‘10 and ‘13 (incidentally the two years Nadal had his best results in).
Yes he’s a great player whose peak occurred almost entirely within those years, which was a factor in him being the most successful. If you don’t think it was a factor then you might as well just take their overall careers as-is, because nothing ever influences anything else.
(Until The_Order decides it does lol.)
Yes Nadal was the most accomplished player from 08-13. Djokovic will have to settle for being the most accomplished player of the 2000’s, and more accomplished than Nadal. You can keep your slice of the pie.
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DSH
Bionic Poster
Nadal's level was quite low for his very high standards there.
His global level did not exceed 5 points on that occasion.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
@TheFifthSet, I like how 2007 doesn't count when we had all the Big 3 in good to great form, but 2013 does when Fed was clearly MIA.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
Timmy over Nads? I think Rafa was easily the best.
RS
Bionic Poster
I assume you would rate Nadal as a 8?
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
Worst era in tennis history?
InsideOut900
Legend
Something like this. Accouting for both level of play as well as level of threat to Djoko in particular.
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jl809
Legend
Now that time has passed I am baffled at some of my old scores. Redoing below
2023 RG SF - Carlos Alcaraz - 3
2023 RG F - Casper Ruud - 4.5
2023 USO SF - Ben Shelton - 4.75
2023 USO F - Daniil Medvedev - 5.5
now we have
2023 RG SF - Carlos Alcaraz - 3
2023 RG F - Casper Ruud - 4.5
2023 USO SF - Ben Shelton - 4.75
2023 USO F - Daniil Medvedev - 5.5
RS
Bionic Poster
If only Alcaraz didn't cramp he would have probably been fairly high
Phenomenal
Hall of Fame
All i know is that Med is below 5 in both finals. Specially AO 21F is a horrible match from him. Tsitsipas was better in 23 F.
Edit: Maybe not in USO F which he was mostly stubborn but he was terrible in AO 2021F.
Edit: Maybe not in USO F which he was mostly stubborn but he was terrible in AO 2021F.
RS
Bionic Poster
Possible. I mean during the match thread people were saying that.
The Sinner
Semi-Pro
If Nadal RG 08 is 10/10, then:
2020 AO SF - Federer = 5/10, F - Thiem = 6/10
2021 AO SF - Karatsev = 2.5/10, F - Medvedev = 4/10
2021 RG SF - Nadal = 7/10, F - Tsitsipas = 5.5/10
2021 Wb SF - Shapo = 5/10, F - Berrettini = 4/10
2022 Wb SF - Norrie = 2/10, F - Kyrgios = 5.5/10
2023 AO SF - Paul = 3/10, F - Tsitsipas = 5/10.
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Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
And lost against Kyrgios in 2014.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Haters getting so desperate 
2020 AO SF - Roger Federer - 4/10
2020 AO F - Dominic Thiem - 7.5/10
2021 AO SF - Aslan Karatsev - 3/10
2021 AO F - Daniil Medvedev - 4/10
2021 RG SF - Rafael Nadal - 6/10
2021 RG F - Stefanos Tsitsipas - 6.5/10
2021 W SF - Denis Shapovalov - 0
2021 W F - Matteo Berrettini - 5/10
2022 W SF - Cam Norrie - 2/10
2022 W F - Nick Kyrgios - 5.5/10
2023 AO SF - Tommy Paul - 0
2023 AO F - Stefanos Tsitsipas - 2/10
2023 RG - Carlos Alcaraz - 3/10
2023 RG - Casper Ruud - 2/10
2023 USO - Ben Shelton - 3/10
2023 USO - Medvedev - 4/10
2020 AO F - Dominic Thiem - 7.5/10
2021 AO SF - Aslan Karatsev - 3/10
2021 AO F - Daniil Medvedev - 4/10
2021 RG SF - Rafael Nadal - 6/10
2021 RG F - Stefanos Tsitsipas - 6.5/10
2021 W SF - Denis Shapovalov - 0
2021 W F - Matteo Berrettini - 5/10
2022 W SF - Cam Norrie - 2/10
2022 W F - Nick Kyrgios - 5.5/10
2023 AO SF - Tommy Paul - 0
2023 AO F - Stefanos Tsitsipas - 2/10
2023 RG - Carlos Alcaraz - 3/10
2023 RG - Casper Ruud - 2/10
2023 USO - Ben Shelton - 3/10
2023 USO - Medvedev - 4/10
GoatNo1
Legend
On the other hand peak rafa lost to much worse version of kyrgios
GoatNo1
Legend
Rafa beat only one top20 player for his 2 latest USO.
GoatNo1
Legend
He is peer with rafa and muzza he was alpha in the strongest era ever. And he was alpha way from his peak in the weak era that still was stronger than feds era. And rafa never was alpha or had own era, either strong or weak.lol wtf are you on about he beat Nadal twice at RG and Federer 3 times at Wimbledon... that's from 2014+ one of the darkest ages in the open era and both Federer and Nadal heavily declined
During the strong era he had one chance against Nadal at RG in 2013 but ultimately failed... just like Nadal failed to beat him at AO12...
He also got dealt with rather comfortably by Federer at WIM12...
But the fact is in the strong era, Djok only able to have 12 months of dominance... without that... it was one slam per season and he was lucky to win those too... Nadal sitter bh away from stopping him in AO12, Stan bs line call away from stopping him in AO13... heck, even 33 year old Roger almost beat him in WIM14 ..
So apart from that 2011 season, he was reduced to winning one slam per year... I guarantee you that wouldn't have been the case if his sf + f opponents were the calibre of Norrie + Kyrgios or Shapovalov + Berrettini or Paul + Tsitsipas
Lol you'd have to be on some pretty hard drugs to think otherwise...
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Much worse version? If you mean the 2014 match, Kyrgios hit 37 aces there (which is more than 9 full service games), not to mention all the other unreturned serves. That was probably the best serving performance of his career. Nadal should have done better in the tiebreaks though.
GoatNo1
Legend
he was 19 YO, no 144 and played with WC, it was his first wimbledon too.
it is many threads here that are mocking noles 2022 final there he was much better version of himself. he self said that he was maximal prepared and that taking a way he was serving that day he would win vs any other player beside the GOAT!
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal was also 19 when he played his first RG. So he played bad in it? The arguments of Djokovic fans become more and more weird.
GoatNo1
Legend
you are weird. all players is not rafa. and all tournaments are not RG. how did rafa at other slams first time? W for example that we are talking about here? how many players won slams from or wimbledon on their first try? how many won W when they was 19? how many won W being ranked less than 140? how many won W being WC (i know for ivanisevic who played 4 finals before). so how normal is it that some player played better in his 1st atempion on some slam, first time on center court, being 19 and WC ond 144 ranked than when he is ranked more than 100 places higher and 24 years old in his 8th attempt? he played the final 2022 while he won vs rafa back in the 2014 and lost very next match vs raonic.
rafa lost W 2012 to 100 ranker rosol in 2nd round. rosol lost next match to kohlschreiber in 3
rafa lost W 2013 to 135 ranked darcis in 1st round. darcis gave WO in next round to kubot
rafa lost W 2014 to 144 ranked kyrgios in 4R round. kyrgios lost next match to raonic in 4
rafa lost W 2015 to 102 ranked brown in 2nd round. brown lost next match to troicki in 4
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StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
At age 20 he already reached Wimbledon final. Sadly, he had to face peak Federer.
GoatNo1
Legend
yes, he was second best the vast majority of his career, just to be 3rd greatest of his generation at the end!
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
The semi finals v Nadal and Federer were when both Nadal and Federer were injured. In both matches Interestingly to start with Federer and Nadal were schooling him before the pain of the injuries got too much
The rest on that list is embarrassing. There is a reason Djokovic cuts such a frustrated figure. He is acutely aware he won too many of his slams without facing the very best.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Why would Nadal or Federer fans be in ruins? Literally every current pro player considers either the greatest ever. RG 2022 QF however definitely has had an effect on a number of djokovic fansYour last line -
"Thats what these matches have done to fed fans and Nadal fans ".
They are in ruins.
abmk
Bionic Poster
sounds about right.
only tpas I'd put at 5.5 or 6 since he did actually play well in the first 2 sets and was up 2 sets to love
berr definitely above norrie and tommy paul, heh
DSH
Bionic Poster
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Bit harsh that as Djokovic did win an ATG number of slams during peak Fedal and Murray and Delpo and Wawrinka. But the fact it took Fedal out the way (and Murray and Wawrinka essentially) and got the luxury of facing those other players before overtaking Fedal really illustrates why players like Sinner and Alcaraz and Fils and Draper do not see Djokovic as GOAT. I struggle to understand why there is such a debate tbh. Genuinely confuses me.
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