Ranking Fed's 11 Wimbledon Final opponents

[Nadalgaenger]

I am going to make a bold and potentially outlandish declaration: Marin Cilic is the most dangerous opponent Fed will have faced in a Wimbledon final.

Here's why:
1) Cilic is basically Safin 2.0, capable of frighteningly high level in big matches.
2) Basically Roddick 2.0. As effective on serve, better on return and off the ground, and much more confident against Federer in particular.
3) Nadal 2008 and Djokovic 2015 were extraordinarily dangerous but neither plays pure grass court tennis. Cilic does.

As a Fed fan, I'm very scared, Cilic is the only person on the list below with the firepower to take the match out of Fed's hands and win in straight sets.

So here's my ranking:
1. 2017 Cilic
2. 2015 Djokovic
3. 2008 Nadal
4. 2014 Djokovic
5. 2007 Nadal
6. 2004 Roddick
7. 2009 Roddick
8. 2012 Murray
9. 2006 Nadal
10. 2005 Roddick
11. 2003 Philippoussis

How would you rank them?

BTW I really hope I'm wrong here! I just fear a Cilic victory in 4.

 

[guitarra]

Putting Cilic on top of list ahead of three finals he lost what is it anti-jinxing?

My TOP6 list would be:

1) Djokovic 2015 (I think Joker was sort of unplayable on this day)
2) Nadal 2007 (even though he lost, but broke down only at the tail end of the final set)
3) Nadal 2008 ( a bit over rated, Fed affected by mono)
4) Roddick 2009 (played so well, almost deserved to win, broken for the first time at 14-15 in the fifth)
5) Roddick 2004 (if not for the rain delay had a great chance to win)
6) Murray 2012 (really good in the first two sets)

Cilic - I'll judge come Sunday, but hopefully will land on the bottom of the list

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Putting Cilic on top of list ahead of three finals he lost what is it anti-jinxing?

My TOP6 list would be:

1) Djokovic 2015 (I think Joker was sort of unplayable on this day)
2) Nadal 2007 (even though he lost, but broke down only at the tail end of the final set)
3) Nadal 2008 ( a bit over rated, Fed affected by mono)
4) Roddick 2009 (played so well, almost deserved to win, broken for the first time at 14-15 in the fifth)
5) Roddick 2004 (if not for the rain delay had a great chance to win)
6) Murray 2012 (really good in the first two sets)

Cilic - I'll judge come Sunday, but hopefully will land on the bottom of the list

Where is Djokovic 2014?

 

[rambl]

Murray 2012 gets underrated, if they hadn't closed the roof it would have been a much tougher match for Fed. But he is unstoppable indoors.

 

[guitarra]

Where is Djokovic 2014?

I think Djokovic 2014 was not that great. Roger without much of a baseline game pushed him to 5, Djoker choked a bit and should have finished it in 4.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I think Djokovic 2014 was not that great. Roger without much of a baseline game pushed him to 5, Djoker choked a bit and should have finished it in 4.

Where would you put Cilic as a potential opponent? Top 5? Top 10?

 

[World Beater]

Huh?

djokovic in 2015 was the toughest challenge fed ever faced in a W final.

unless cilic destroys fed tomorrow, i dont think cilic will reach that level even if he wins.

 

[abmk]

so, these days pure grass court tennis is sitting and bashing from the baseline, not using the slice that much , not net rushing much

and Cilic's serve isn't close to Roddick's.


2008 nadal
2007 nadal
2015 djokovic
2009 roddick
2004 roddick

are the top 5 IMO.

 

[World Beater]

so, these days pure grass court tennis is sitting and bashing from the baseline, not using the slice that much , not net rushing much

and Cilic's serve isn't close to Roddick's.


2008 nadal
2007 nadal
2015 djokovic
2009 roddick
2004 roddick

are the top 5 IMO.

not sure i would be nadal as the top two..i think 2015 djok was better than nadal in 2008.

djok can actually return fed's serve..something nadal just cant really do.

djok in 2014 is below nadal in 2008 and 2007 though.

 

[abmk]

not sure i would be nadal as the top two..i think 2015 djok was better than nadal in 2008.

djok can actually return fed's serve..something nadal just cant really do.

djok in 2014 is below nadal in 2008 and 2007 though.

actually nadal reads and returns federer's serve well, better than most and better than his average returning.
He broke federer 4 times in wimby 07 final and 4 times in wimby 08 final.
Djokovic broke federer 4 times in wimby 15 final (though a shorter match, but a clearly worse federer and only once in the 1st two sets when federer actually played some good tennis)

its somewhat debatable b/w djok 15 and nadal 07/08. Don't forget that nadal was playing a clearly superior federer.

 

[Kyrgiosfan2017]

Interesting thread @Nadalgaenger . I am not sure I can rate Cilic 2017 without seeing how he does in the final. However, these are my ratings as follows for the other 10:

1. 2008 Nadal - no explanation needed.
2. 2004 Roddick - Roddick was playing lights out before the interruption. Remember this was probably Roger's best version on grass along with 2006.
3. 2015 Novak - this was Novak's best ever Wimbledon and while he would have handily lost to any version of Roger from 2003-2009 and 2012, it was still a magnificent performance against a decent Federer who was a couple of notches below the Murray SF.
4. 2007 Nadal - Nadal had scares throughout that Wimbledon as is the norm for him on fresh grass, but once he got to the final you knew it was going to be tough. He had beaten Federer in his best year on HC at one of his best events the previous year and coming fresh off a win in the RG F, there was every chance he could take it to Roger and win...and he almost did.
5. 2012 Murray - I still feel this was Murray's highest ever level at Wimbledon. The match would have gone 5 if the roof hadn't been closed.
6. 2009 Roddick - he was serving absolute bombs and while this was probably Federer's worst performance in a Wimbledon triumph, Roddick was untouchable on serve for most of the match.
7. 2014 Djokovic - despite the 5 sets I don't know what to make of this. Federer was dreadful from the baseline throughout the match and took it to 5 sets through sheer grit and willpower.
8. 2003 Philippoussis - While he might seem like a no name in this elite list, Mark was a good player on grass in his own right and gave Sampras a few headaches. Federer's only true exclusively S and V performance in this final.
9. 2005 Roddick - Federer had built up a huge mental advantage over Roddick by this point but Roddick had the weapons to do well on grass. The big FH and serve combo coupled with his 2004 performance vs Federer meant that this didn't seem like it would be the walk in the park it turned out to be.
10. 2006 Nadal - feels odd to put Nadal this low but there was no real chance that he would beat Federer at his absolute peak on grass that year.

I am basing this list not on Federer's level but on the level shown by opponents in the final. If I had to hazard a guess, I think Cilic 2017 would be somewhere close to 7th or so on the list, which 2017 Federer should handle comfortably...but you never know.

If I had to rate Federer's final performances it would be:

1)2006
2)2004
3)2003
4)2005
5)2007
6)2012
7)2008
8)2009 (although I feel he would have definitely won 2008 if he had served like he did in 2009)
9)2015
10)2014

If Federer plays his best level possible right now, it'd be somewhere up there with 2009.

 

[Newcomer]

Djokovic in 2015 is overrated. If anyone forgot, he choked the second set from 7 setpoints, some of which were on serve. That doesn't tell about great form, clearly the opposite. I think a better version of Federer would have won then, but Federer was too nervous, and physically tired after the second set.

 

[Kyrgiosfan2017]

Djokovic in 2015 is overrated. If anyone forgot, he choked the second set from 7 setpoints, some of which were on serve. That doesn't tell about great form, clearly the opposite. I think a better version of Federer would have won then, but Federer was too nervous, and physically tired after the second set.

There is no doubt that a better Federer would have won. 2003,04,05,07,08,09 and 12 would have all beaten Djokovic 2015. I think 2011 Federer would have beaten 2015 DJokovic too, Tsonga was playing lights out then. Djokovic had a fortunate draw where he not only played the first SF but also played Gasquet instead of Murray. Fed was also definitely down from his level in the SF but you expect that at 34. Of course that is to take nothing away from what was Djokovic's best ever Wimbledon performance.

 

[Gazelle]

Djokovic in 2015 is overrated. If anyone forgot, he choked the second set from 7 setpoints, some of which were on serve. That doesn't tell about great form, clearly the opposite. I think a better version of Federer would have won then, but Federer was too nervous, and physically tired after the second set.

Ye, Djokovic 2015 was too much of a pusher to rank high. And now he pays the price for his pushing, having an injured elbow.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

so, these days pure grass court tennis is sitting and bashing from the baseline, not using the slice that much , not net rushing much

and Cilic's serve isn't close to Roddick's.


2008 nadal
2007 nadal
2015 djokovic
2009 roddick
2004 roddick

are the top 5 IMO.

Watch the way the Cilic FH slides through the grass. He plays first strike aggressive baseline tennis. Serves lights out. Goes big on return.

 

[abmk]

Watch the way the Cilic FH slides through the grass. He plays first strike aggressive baseline tennis. Serves lights out. Goes big on return.

pure grass court tennis also involves net play and the use of slice, being able to deal with slice, net play ...neither of which cilic is doing much of or doing particularly well.

aggressive play ? yeah . pure grass court tennis ? nope.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

pure grass court tennis also involves net play and the use of slice, being able to deal with slice, net play ...neither of which cilic is doing much of or doing particularly well.

aggressive play ? yeah . pure grass court tennis ? nope.

Fair point. Roger needs to slice the crap out of the ball Sunday. Don't like the idea of going toe to toe from the baseline with this guy.

He's basically Safin with much better movement and defense.

 

[Kyrgiosfan2017]

Fair point. Roger needs to slice the crap out of the ball Sunday. Don't like the idea of going toe to toe from the baseline with this guy.

He's basically Safin with much better movement and defense.

What? Safin is much better at pretty much everything than Cilic.

 

[abmk]

Fair point. Roger needs to slice the crap out of the ball Sunday. Don't like the idea of going toe to toe from the baseline with this guy.

He's basically Safin with much better movement and defense.

what ? no way.
Safin moved better and defended better than Cilic.

Much better net play as well.
Much better BH obviously.
Better FH, better return, better passing shots.

the only thing Cilic does better is serve (& it isn't by much)

 

[MatsPhilander]

 

[Smasher08]

I am going to make a bold and potentially outlandish declaration: Marin Cilic is the most dangerous opponent Fed will have faced in a Wimbledon final.

Here's why:
1) Cilic is basically Safin 2.0, capable of frighteningly high level in big matches.
2) Basically Roddick 2.0. As effective on serve, better on return and off the ground, and much more confident against Federer in particular.
3) Nadal 2008 and Djokovic 2015 were extraordinarily dangerous but neither plays pure grass court tennis. Cilic does.

As a Fed fan, I'm very scared, Cilic is the only person on the list below with the firepower to take the match out of Fed's hands and win in straight sets.

So here's my ranking:
1. 2017 Cilic
2. 2015 Djokovic
3. 2008 Nadal
4. 2014 Djokovic
5. 2007 Nadal
6. 2004 Roddick
7. 2009 Roddick
8. 2012 Murray
9. 2006 Nadal
10. 2005 Roddick
11. 2003 Philippoussis

How would you rank them?

BTW I really hope I'm wrong here! I just fear a Cilic victory in 4.

Without any disrespect to your guy, I actually view Djoker's 2015 and 2014 levels as higher than Ralph in 2008 -- as the scorelines in terms of games played will bear out.

2008 was razor close, whereas 2014 and especially 2015 Djoker just seemed to have another gear compared to Rogi. In fact, I thought that in 2014 Rogi stole the first set and should have been beaten in 4.

As matches go, 2008 is far more epic, but imo that's more of a testament to just how closely matched they were.

As for Chilli, I really don't think he's top 4, any maybe even not top 7.

That said, picking #s 5-11 is a bit like spinning a bottle. Both Scud and A-Rod rarely seem to get their due around these parts: but that's because Peak Rogi's unprecedented talent and level made them seem ordinary.

 

[Smasher08]

what ? no way.
Safin moved better and defended better than Cilic.

Much better net play as well.
Much better BH obviously.
Better FH, better return, better passing shots.

the only thing Cilic does better is serve (& it isn't by much)

Safin had more talent, but both are capable of blasting serves and groundies past anyone when they're on.

. . . Which, fortunately for all the Big 4 and their fanbases, isn't that regularly!

 

[-NN-]

Based on form leading up to the final Cilic is right up there near the top. We'll just have to see what the final brings. In terms of performances in finals, Murray's 2012 might be underrated.

 

[Kyrgiosfan2017]

Without any disrespect to your guy, I actually view Djoker's 2015 and 2014 levels as higher than Ralph in 2008 -- as the scorelines in terms of games played will bear out.

2008 was razor close, whereas 2014 and especially 2015 Djoker just seemed to have another gear compared to Rogi. In fact, I thought that in 2014 Rogi stole the first set and should have been beaten in 4.

As matches go, 2008 is far more epic, but imo that's more of a testament to just how closely matched they were.

As for Chilli, I really don't think he's top 4, any maybe even not top 7.

That said, picking #s 5-11 is a bit like spinning a bottle. Both Scud and A-Rod rarely seem to get their due around these parts: but that's because Peak Rogi's unprecedented talent and level made them seem ordinary.

That is because Federer of 2008 was comfortably better than 2015 Wimbledon Federer and miles ahead of 2014 Wimbledon Federer.

 

[Smasher08]

That is because Federer of 2008 was comfortably better than 2015 Wimbledon Federer and miles ahead of 2014 Wimbledon Federer.

Not even close, my trolling friend!

2014 Fed was playing decidedly better than in 2015, and 2008 Fed was still recovering from mono.

 

[Sysyphus]

Cilic is the most fearsome task yet.

But as Cilic seemed to indicate after his own semifinal, Fed has never been as good at Wimbledon as now, so if there's anyone who can stop the seemingly immutable Marin train...

 

[Kyrgiosfan2017]

Not even close, my trolling friend!

2014 Fed was playing decidedly better than in 2015, and 2008 Fed was still recovering from mono.

Federer was fully recovered in the second half of 2008. What did affect him was the fact that he was short on both training and confidence as a result of mono affecting him in the first part of the year. Federer at 2015 Wimbledon was better than 2014 Wimbledon and it is not even close and 2008 Wimbledon >> either.

 

[Charlie]

Let's wait and see how Cilic plays in the final. But I highly doubt he will perform at the level 2007/08 Nadal did. Not to mention 2015 Djokovic, the one I rate the highest of all 10 final opponents.

 

[Smasher08]

Federer was fully recovered in the second half of 2008. What did affect him was the fact that he was short on both training and confidence as a result of mono affecting him in the first part of the year. Federer at 2015 Wimbledon was better than 2014 Wimbledon and it is not even close and 2008 Wimbledon >> either.

ROTFLMAO. Btw, what's your other account name(s)?

 

[underground]

That is because Federer of 2008 was comfortably better than 2015 Wimbledon Federer and miles ahead of 2014 Wimbledon Federer.

Before the final, 2015 Federer was much better than 2014. However in the final, 2014 was miles ahead of 2015. In 2014 Fed was actually employing the right tactics (coming to the net, aggressive, disrupting Novak's rhythm) for a good portion of the match. In 2015, he could lulled into "let's out rally Novak" mode and hit an incredible amount of UEs off the baseline (specifically a crap ton into the net).

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Before the final, 2015 Federer was much better than 2014. However in the final, 2014 was miles ahead of 2015. In 2014 Fed was actually employing the right tactics (coming to the net, aggressive, disrupting Novak's rhythm) for a good portion of the match. In 2015, he could lulled into "let's out rally Novak" mode and hit an incredible amount of UEs off the baseline (specifically a crap ton into the net).

I agree completely. Fed's 2015 SF against Murray was sheer brilliance--among the most impressive match performances I've ever seen.

 

[duaneeo]

1) Cilic is basically Safin 2.0, capable of frighteningly high level in big matches.
2) Basically Roddick 2.0. As effective on serve, better on return and off the ground, and much more confident against Federer in particular.

In his dreams.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

In his dreams.

Like I said. I'd be very pleased to be proven wrong Sunday but this guy seems like a grass juggernaut

 

[duaneeo]

Like I said. I'd be very pleased to be proven wrong Sunday but this guy seems like a grass juggernaut

I'm not saying Cilic won't win Wimbledon. I'm disagreeing with your comparisons to Safin and Roddick.

 

[World Beater]

actually nadal reads and returns federer's serve well, better than most and better than his average returning.
He broke federer 4 times in wimby 07 final and 4 times in wimby 08 final.
Djokovic broke federer 4 times in wimby 15 final (though a shorter match, but a clearly worse federer and only once in the 1st two sets when federer actually played some good tennis)

its somewhat debatable b/w djok 15 and nadal 07/08. Don't forget that nadal was playing a clearly superior federer.

my comment regarding nadal's returning in reference to federer was relative to djokovic.

the gulf in returning quality between the two when it comes to federer is large. djokovic can lock in on federer's serve like nobody else in the world. of course there are times where even djokovic cannot return federer's serve effectively like in 2014 wimbledon when fed served like a demon.

2015 federer's level was higher than 2008. federer also had lower confidence against nadal at that time - possibly his lowest point esp after getting annhilated by rafa at RG. 2008 fed in the first two sets was listless...

2015 federer also put in a phenomenal performance against a very good murray in the sf. he was going into that final in good form. first two sets were narrow with nothing to choose against djok...djok raised his game immensely in the 4th set.

if you look at the stats, federer's level in 2015 was higher than in 2008. his opponents with the exception of nadal were also weaker in 2008.

federer in 2015 would have beaten 2008 nadal.

 

[World Beater]

I

As a Fed fan, I'm very scared, Cilic is the only person on the list below with the firepower to take the match out of Fed's hands and win in straight sets.

So here's my ranking:
1. 2017 Cilic
2. 2015 Djokovic
3. 2008 Nadal
4. 2014 Djokovic
5. 2007 Nadal
6. 2004 Roddick
7. 2009 Roddick
8. 2012 Murray
9. 2006 Nadal
10. 2005 Roddick
11. 2003 Philippoussis

How would you rank them?

BTW I really hope I'm wrong here! I just fear a Cilic victory in 4.

1. 2015 Djokovic
2a. 2008 Nadal
2b. 2014 Djokovic
3. 2007 Nadal
4. 2004 Roddick
5. 2009 Roddick
6. 2012 Murray
7. 2006 Nadal
8. 2005 Roddick
9. 2003 Philippoussis

difficult to choose between 2008 nadal and 2014 djoko though i give edge to 2008 nadal.

but djokovic is better on grass than nadal.

2007 nadal / 2004 roddick were both very tough...people forget how big roddick played in 2004.

also even though 2007 nadal went 5 sets with federer, federer was ahead for most of the match - THAT IS KEY.

its way different when you are behind and much tougher because your back is against the wall.

2004 roddick was blowing fed away until the rain delay with his power.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

1. 2015 Djokovic
2a. 2008 Nadal
2b. 2014 Djokovic
3. 2007 Nadal
4. 2004 Roddick
5. 2009 Roddick
6. 2012 Murray
7. 2006 Nadal
8. 2005 Roddick
9. 2003 Philippoussis

difficult to choose between 2008 nadal and 2014 djoko though i give edge to 2008 nadal.

but djokovic is better on grass than nadal.

2007 nadal / 2004 roddick were both very tough...people forget how big roddick played in 2004.

also even though 2007 nadal went 5 sets with federer, federer was always ahead in the match - THAT IS KEY.

its way different when you are behind and much tougher because your back is against the wall.

2004 roddick was blowing fed away until the rain delay with his power.

Where's Cilic?

 

[World Beater]

1. 2015 Djokovic
2a. 2008 Nadal
2b. 2014 Djokovic
3. 2007 Nadal
4. 2004 Roddick
5. 2009 Roddick
6. 2012 Murray
7. 2006 Nadal
8. 2005 Roddick
9. 2003 Philippoussis

difficult to choose between 2008 nadal and 2014 djoko though i give edge to 2008 nadal.

but djokovic is better on grass than nadal.

2007 nadal / 2004 roddick were both very tough...people forget how big roddick played in 2004.

also even though 2007 nadal went 5 sets with federer, federer was ahead for most of the match - THAT IS KEY with the exception of 2-2 in the 5th set when fed saved bps..but he was ahead for most of the match.

its way different when you are behind and much tougher because your back is against the wall.

2004 roddick was blowing fed away until the rain delay with his power.

Where's Cilic?

will tell you after the final.

no point ranking before...if cilic plays a clunker..then he wasn't so tough after all...was he?

 

[abmk]

my comment regarding nadal's returning in reference to federer was relative to djokovic.

the gulf in returning quality between the two when it comes to federer is large. djokovic can lock in on federer's serve like nobody else in the world. of course there are times where even djokovic cannot return federer's serve effectively like in 2014 wimbledon when fed served like a demon.

2015 federer's level was higher than 2008. federer also had lower confidence against nadal at that time - possibly his lowest point esp after getting annhilated by rafa at RG. 2008 fed in the first two sets was listless...

2015 federer also put in a phenomenal performance against a very good murray in the sf. he was going into that final in good form. first two sets were narrow with nothing to choose against djok...djok raised his game immensely in the 4th set.

if you look at the stats, federer's level in 2015 was higher than in 2008. his opponents with the exception of nadal were also weaker in 2008.

federer in 2015 would have beaten 2008 nadal.

what on earth are you on about ?

federer's stamina went down after 2 sets and a bit in that wimby 15 final. he put up zero fight after that. he fought like a lion in the wimby 08 final.

nadal of 2008 final would've squashed federer of wim 15 final in 4 sets - same as djoko ( split the first 2 sets and then nadal would've won the next 2). he just didn't have the baseline game or stamina to keep up with nadal of 2008 final.


last 3 sets of wim 08 final from federer >> first 2 sets vs djokovic in wim 15 final

first 2 sets of wim 08 final from federer >> last 2 sets vs djokovic in wim 15 final

semi-final in 2015 vs Murray was a different case, his level dipped considerably in the final. Remember the semi-final was only for 3 sets, close to 2 hours. Federer in 2015 really couldn't sustain a good enough level for more than 2 hours in any match.

it wasn't even remotely close b/w fed of 08 wimby final and 15 wimby final

----

and yes, my stats were talking about nadal and djokovic's returning with respect to federer only. which is why I mentioned the stats of the wimbledon finals : 07,08,15. and this is with federer serving better in 07/08 finals than he did in 15 final.

 

[World Beater]

what on earth are you on about ?

federer's stamina went down after 2 sets and a bit in that wimby 15 final. he put up zero fight after that

nadal of 2008 final would've squashed federer of wim 15 final in 4 sets - same as djoko ( split the first 2 sets and then nadal would've won the next 2)


last 3 sets of wim 08 final from federer > first 2 sets vs djokovic in wim 15 final by some distance.

first 2 sets of wim 08 final from federer > last 2 sets vs djokovic in wim 15 final by some distance.

semi-final in 2015 vs Murray was a different case, his level dipped considerably in the final. Remember the semi-final was only for 3 sets, close to 2 hours. Federer in 2015 really couldn't sustain a good enough level for more than 2 hours in any match.


----

and yes, my stats were talking about nadal and djokovic's returning with respect to federer only. which is why I mentioned the stats of the wimbledon finals : 07,08,15. and this is with federer serving better in 07/08 finals than he did in 15 final.

what stats? you didnt post anything other than breaks of serve, which you admitted doesnt make sense since the match duration is longer. federer was a higher quality player in 2015 wimbledon - you are not accounting for that.

zero fight? federer would not agree with you nor would most tennis analysts.

we clearly saw different matches.

2008 was when federer was suffering from mono. his stamina was clearly lower that year and he has admitted as such many times - not to mentioned his play and confidence was low.

federer did not have a grueling run in 2015 to the final - the tired excuse doesnt really hold.

last 3 sets of wim 08 final from federer > first 2 sets vs djokovic in wim 15 final by some distance.

first 2 sets of wim 08 final from federer > last 2 sets vs djokovic in wim 15 final by some distance.

disagree with the first statement.

the second one is half true. 4th set was not a high level from federer but this is due to djokovic.. he was decent in the third.

it depends ultimately on how you want to assign credit/blame (i.e. to the opponent or to fed sucking). having seen the matches - federer wasnt playing badly but djokovic was returning extremely well and forcing errors. whereas with nadal, federer was missing many many easy shots like the forehand volley miss in the second set against nadal when he was up 4-1 and handed the break back.

 

[icedevil0289]

hmm correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't fed still considered in his prime in 2008, his fh not completely declined, better from the baseline etc. idk its really hard to compare i suppose

 

[Nadalgaenger]

will tell you after the final.

no point ranking before...if cilic plays a clunker..then he wasn't so tough after all...was he?

That's the fun challenge. Trying to assess this unknown commodity that we call Cilic.

 

[World Beater]

hmm correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't fed still considered in his prime in 2008, his fh not completely declined, better from the baseline etc. idk its really hard to compare i suppose

2008 was a down year for federer.

he contracted mono and him winning the usopen was fantastic given what happened to some other players who had contracted mono..e.g. soderling/ancic (i believe).

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I'm not saying Cilic won't win Wimbledon. I'm disagreeing with your comparisons to Safin and Roddick.

What makes Roddick so much better?

 

[Deleted member 716271]

1. 2015 Djokovic
2. 2008 Nadal (Like Nadal the year before plus a tiny edge)
3. 2007 Nadal
4. Roddick 2004 (a bit better than 2009, despite nowhere near as close imo. Rain delay +better Fed than in 2009)
5. Roddick 2009
6. Djokovic 2014 (great mental strength but average level)
7. Murray 2012
8. Nadal 2006
9. Roddick 2005
10. Philipoussis 2003

How can we rank Cilic before seeing how he plays in the final?

 

[World Beater]

What makes Roddick so much better?

on paper cilic should trouble federer more..but not everything is Xs and Os..there are many intangibles.

roddick in 2004 and 2009 gave federer extremely tough fights and played to his limits.

cilic could play his b game for all we know...

 

[icedevil0289]

2008 was a down year for federer.

he contracted mono and him winning the usopen was fantastic given what happened to some other players who had contracted mono..e.g. soderling/ancic (i believe).

except fed's mono and what happened to soderling and cilic are two completely different things. its not even comparable. it effective some of his performances but certainly not during the 2nd half of the year.

 

[World Beater]

except fed's mono and what happened to soderling and cilic are two completely different things. its not even comparable. it effective some of his performances but certainly not during the 2nd half of the year.

i did not mean to imply that the severity was the same.

but clearly federer's preparation was affected by it. his entire year and performances, confidence went down.

 

[tennisaddict]

Not unless USO 2014 SF Cilic shows up would he be the best opponent at Wimbledon.

Novak 2015 , Rafa 2008 , Roddick 2009 were monsters.

 

[abmk]

what stats? you didnt post anything other than breaks of serve, which you admitted doesnt make sense since the match duration is longer. federer was a higher quality player in 2015 wimbledon - you are not accounting for that.

I didn't say it doesn't make sense. Just that its not the same.

Nadal won 27% of 1st serve points from federer and 43% of 2nd serve points in wim 08 final.

Djokovic won 26% of 1st serve points from federer and 51% of 2nd serve points in wim 15 final.

nadal won about the same(1% higher) 1st serve return points which actually is more indicative of returning than the 2nd ( which depends more on the baseline prowess)

djokovic returned better overall, no doubt. But difference wasn't big.
djokovic's returning was more flashy, nadal's less so.

federer was higher quality player in 2008 wimbledon final than in 2015 wimbeldon final, so I'm not going to account for the opposite.

zero fight? federer would not agree with you nor would most tennis analysts.

I said zero fight after the 2nd set. the only fight in the 15 final was the 2nd set breaker.

we clearly saw different matches.

clearly

2008 was when federer was suffering from mono. his stamina was clearly lower that year and he has admitted as such many times - not to mentioned his play and confidence was low.

federer's stamina did not take a hit that year. He played 5-setter with Tipsarevic, 10-8 in the 5th; 5-setter vs Nadal at wimby - 9-7 in the 5th; 5-setter vs Andreev at USO : 6-3 in the 5th set.

secondly, federer had won Halle in 08 without losing a set. He had come into the final at Wimbledon in 08 without losing a set. His confidence against the field was top notch on grass. Just not so much against Nadal. But he still fought like hell to come down from 2 sets to love down.

federer did not have a grueling run in 2015 to the final - the tired excuse doesnt really hold.

no, he didn't have a tiring run. But he did look down and out in the final after the rain break in the 3rd set.

disagree with the first statement.

yeah, everyone must be really stupid to regard that wimby 08 final as a high quality match with 2 sets of listless federer and 3 sets of just good federer.

the second one is half true. 4th set was not a high level from federer but this is due to djokovic.. he was decent in the third.

no, federer just went away after the rain break. djokovic breaking again in the 4th set was a just a bonus for him.

tit depends ultimately on how you want to assign credit/blame (i.e. to the opponent or to fed sucking). having seen the matches - federer wasnt playing badly but djokovic was returning extremely well and forcing errors. whereas with nadal, federer was missing many many easy shots like the forehand volley miss in the second set against nadal when he was up 4-1 and handed the break back.

eh, federer just didn't have the ground game to overcome djokovic in wim 15, all those shots that forced errors in wim 15 would've been returned with interest by federer in 08. He was able to handle pace and depth far better in 08 than in 15.

also didn't federer miss an easy forehand to hand djokovic the break in the 3rd set ?

Edit :

at 10:28

federer's rate of UEs in both the finals was about the same :
52/413 in wim 08 final ( 12.59%)
35/276 in wim 15 final ( 12.65%)