Rankings of Greats by tennis experts

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
We have entered a new age of barbarism....people have lost faith in their own societies, and in using established democratic institutions to bring about change.

Why did we fight WWII? Why did we fight in Korea?

It was to protect democratic principles against arbitrary autocracy. Now the beneficiaries of that commitment are turning against the very institutions which hold them up.
A mayor of a Swedish city suggests that the monument of the famous Swedish king Karl XII (Karolus Rex) should be replaced with a monument of the climate activist girl Greta Tunberg !!! Monuments of Columbus, Jefferson and Churchill were also defiled or destroyed. I just don't have words. I can't believe where the world is going to.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
We have entered a new age of barbarism....people have lost faith in their own societies, and in using established democratic institutions to bring about change.

Why did we fight WWII? Why did we fight in Korea?

It was to protect democratic principles against arbitrary autocracy. Now the beneficiaries of that commitment are turning against the very institutions which hold them up.
Going further to the theme I just read that lefty activists from Austria want the removal of the monuments of Mozart. They say that while Mozart had been in Paris in the 90s of the 18th century he called "ape" to Chevalier de Saint George - the private musician of the Queen. The musician had an Afro-Caribbean origin. Can you imagine Austria without Mozart???
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
A mayor of a Swedish city suggests that the monument of the famous Swedish king Karl XII (Karolus Rex) should be replaced with a monument of the climate activist girl Greta Tunberg !!! Monuments of Columbus, Jefferson and Churchill were also defiled or destroyed. I just don't have words. I can't believe where the world is going to.
Greta and her gang have identified with the "Antifa" movement, left-wing saboteurs and violent protesters, whose spirit is behind this current rebellion. She must be delighted with the results of her work.

Mozart was not necessarily a role model in his private life, but his musical composition skills are the most outstanding of anyone in history. Mozart did not become famous because of political activity, so it is irrelevant to judge him by political standards.

Beethoven was a dedicated monarchist, and an opponent of republicanism. Should Beethoven's music be banned in America because he was a monarchist?

King Henry VIII of Britain composed "Greensleeves", also known as the Christmas carol tune "What Child is This?", one of the standard melodies of human expression. Should we ban the tune because of Henry's political authoritarianism?

Where would it end, by destroying all of our culture because we disagree with the political views of those who created it?
Pure nonsense.
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
A mayor of a Swedish city suggests that the monument of the famous Swedish king Karl XII (Karolus Rex) should be replaced with a monument of the climate activist girl Greta Tunberg !!! Monuments of Columbus, Jefferson and Churchill were also defiled or destroyed. I just don't have words. I can't believe where the world is going to.
I recall seeing a photo of Greta munching on snacks from a plastic bag and drinking from a tin can of pop, while sitting in the back seat of a gas-guzzling SUV....ah, the ironies of life, promoting one thing while doing another. I think that many weather worriers are dependent upon gas-guzzling SUV's for their life styles.
 

1stVolley

Professional
Thanks Juan. Great info again.

What do you guys think of the lists by these experts? Any comments.

It's clear Bill Johnston was very well respected as were two of the Muskateers in Cochet and Lacoste. Johnston is hardly ever spoken of now.
I think it is a big mistake to rank players in a pool covering multiple eras. How can you compare Tilden and Laver, for example when their competition, equipment and tennis technique was so vastly different--usually to the detriment of the older player. Tilden would be crushed if he played with the equipment and strokes he used if he played against a more modern player like Laver. And Laver would be crushed if he played against a Sampras or a Medvedev. If you updated the older player's equipment to more modern standards then there would not be any reason for them to use a lot of their old technique, e.g. domination of Continental grip strokes, straight back groundstroke backswings.

Also, the rules of tennis changed somewhat, esp. regarding the "at least one foot on the ground" rule in serving. Think what a change in Gonzales' game would occur if he were allowed to go airborne while serving. So, I think it's fair to compare, say, Kramer and Budge or Sedgwick, Hoad, Newcombe, Laver and Rosewall, but certainly not Tilden and Federer or Nadal and Elsworth Vines.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
I recall seeing a photo of Greta munching on snacks from a plastic bag and drinking from a tin can of pop, while sitting in the back seat of a gas-guzzling SUV....ah, the ironies of life, promoting one thing while doing another. I think that many weather worriers are dependent upon gas-guzzling SUV's for their life styles.
Oh, demagogy is modern and well used.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
I think it is a big mistake to rank players in a pool covering multiple eras. How can you compare Tilden and Laver, for example when their competition, equipment and tennis technique was so vastly different--usually to the detriment of the older player. Tilden would be crushed if he played with the equipment and strokes he used if he played against a more modern player like Laver. And Laver would be crushed if he played against a Sampras or a Medvedev. If you updated the older player's equipment to more modern standards then there would not be any reason for them to use a lot of their old technique, e.g. domination of Continental grip strokes, straight back groundstroke backswings.

Also, the rules of tennis changed somewhat, esp. regarding the "at least one foot on the ground" rule in serving. Think what a change in Gonzales' game would occur if he were allowed to go airborne while serving. So, I think it's fair to compare, say, Kramer and Budge or Sedgwick, Hoad, Newcombe, Laver and Rosewall, but certainly not Tilden and Federer or Nadal and Elsworth Vines.
Sedgwick? Or Sedgman
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
I think it is a big mistake to rank players in a pool covering multiple eras. How can you compare Tilden and Laver, for example when their competition, equipment and tennis technique was so vastly different--usually to the detriment of the older player. Tilden would be crushed if he played with the equipment and strokes he used if he played against a more modern player like Laver. And Laver would be crushed if he played against a Sampras or a Medvedev. If you updated the older player's equipment to more modern standards then there would not be any reason for them to use a lot of their old technique, e.g. domination of Continental grip strokes, straight back groundstroke backswings.

Also, the rules of tennis changed somewhat, esp. regarding the "at least one foot on the ground" rule in serving. Think what a change in Gonzales' game would occur if he were allowed to go airborne while serving. So, I think it's fair to compare, say, Kramer and Budge or Sedgwick, Hoad, Newcombe, Laver and Rosewall, but certainly not Tilden and Federer or Nadal and Elsworth Vines.
It works in reverse also, how would Federer do with the old heavy wooden racquets with smaller heads? Or Nadal? Not too well.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
In 1969 an international panel of tennis writers picked the player of the year for the Martini and Rossi Gold Racquet ranked the player of the World for all time. There were 1. Tilden 2. Budge 3. Laver 4. Gonzalez 5. Kramer 6. Perry 7. Cochet 8. Lacoste 9. Hoad 10. Vines 11. Rosewall 12 R L Doherty 13. Brookes 14. Sedgman and Johnston (tied) 15. Renshaw 16. Jack Crawford 17. Baron Gottfried von Cramm, Pancho Segura, Tony Wilding and Roy Emerson (tied)

Allison Danzig-1. Tilden 2. Cochet 3.Budge 4. Lacoste 5. Kramer 6. Perry 7. Johnston 8. Laver 9. Vines 10. Gonzalez and Emerson

Harry Hopman-1. Tilden 2. Budge 3. Perry 4. Laver 5. Cochet 6. Lacoste 7. Johnston 8. HL Doherty 9. Vines 10. Gonzalez and Emerson

Lance Tingay 1. Tilden 2. Budge 3. Laver 4. Gonzalez 5. Hoad 6. Perry 7. Cochet 8. Wilding 9. HL Doherty 10. W. Renshaw.
Here are PC1's discoveries of rankings by Danzig and others.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
they’d play great. if a hacker like myself can pick up a woodie and play reasonably good tennis, pretty sure roger’d be ok.
Has Roger experimented with wood racquets? It would be nice to see the current crop of greats play a tournament using older racquets and strings. The smaller racquet head could make the new stroke styles inoperable.
 

mental midget

Hall of Fame
Has Roger experimented with wood racquets? It would be nice to see the current crop of greats play a tournament using older racquets and strings. The smaller racquet head could make the new stroke styles inoperable.
i agree, i'd love to see it. i saw a few pros doing it at newport a few years back. honestly i think their games would look more similar than you think...maybe less slapping return winners from 6 ft behind the baseline but in general, it's gonna look pretty similar. I wish larry ellison or somebody would put up some huge cash for a woodie tournament, i think it would get ratings for sure.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
i agree, i'd love to see it. i saw a few pros doing it at newport a few years back. honestly i think their games would look more similar than you think...maybe less slapping return winners from 6 ft behind the baseline but in general, it's gonna look pretty similar. I wish larry ellison or somebody would put up some huge cash for a woodie tournament, i think it would get ratings for sure.
You would see a revival of serve-and-volley tennis, more net rushing. Not the endless rallies from the baseline.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
You would see a revival of serve-and-volley tennis, more net rushing. Not the endless rallies from the baseline.
The baseline rallies are the most beautiful thing of tennis. To watch 20-30 rallies is a great satisfaction. Nole shows that beauty in the game.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
i agree, i'd love to see it. i saw a few pros doing it at newport a few years back. honestly i think their games would look more similar than you think...maybe less slapping return winners from 6 ft behind the baseline but in general, it's gonna look pretty similar. I wish larry ellison or somebody would put up some huge cash for a woodie tournament, i think it would get ratings for sure.
Apparently, Djokovic and others did play one tournament with the old wood racquets, smaller heads, and he had great trouble with it. I think that racquets would make a great difference in evaluating new versus old pro player greats.
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
The baseline rallies are the most beautiful thing of tennis. To watch 20-30 rallies is a great satisfaction. Nole shows that beauty in the game.
Variety, so they say, IS the spice of Life! One thing that is weird with me is that I love and prefer Roger's game, but root for Djokovic, whose game I do enjoy and admire.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Going further to the theme I just read that lefty activists from Austria want the removal of the monuments of Mozart. They say that while Mozart had been in Paris in the 90s of the 18th century he called "ape" to Chevalier de Saint George - the private musician of the Queen. The musician had an Afro-Caribbean origin. Can you imagine Austria without Mozart???
Why not, Mozart was born in Salzburg which never was a part of Austria during his lifetime (1756-91).
Salzburg was part of the "Holy Roman Empire" which was dissolved in 1806, long after Mozart's death.
He was more German than Austrian.
In contrast to Adolf H. who was Austrian of course.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Why not, Mozart was born in Salzburg which never was a part of Austria during his lifetime (1756-91).
Salzburg was part of the "Holy Roman Empire" which was dissolved in 1806, long after Mozart's death.
He was more German than Austrian.
In contrast to Adolf H. who was Austrian of course.
Although Mozart's mature career was based in Vienna. Mozart's father was German, and, as you point out, Mozart probably regarded himself as German, certainly in terms of culture. Mozart composed two German-language operas to indicate his cultural leanings.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Although Mozart's mature career was based in Vienna. Mozart's father was German, and, as you point out, Mozart probably regarded himself as German, certainly in terms of culture. Mozart composed two German-language operas to indicate his cultural leanings.
Actually there never was a "Germany" in the modern sense until 1871.
The Austrians were one of several German peoples, Austria a part of the "Holy Roman Empire" which in the 18th century consisted only of territories of (mainly) today's Germany, Austria, Belgium and Czechia and was dissolved 1806 when Napoleon conquered it.
But Germans love to tell Austrians today that Mozart was German and Hitler Austrian! :p
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
Why not, Mozart was born in Salzburg which never was a part of Austria during his lifetime (1756-91).
Salzburg was part of the "Holy Roman Empire" which was dissolved in 1806, long after Mozart's death.
He was more German than Austrian.
In contrast to Adolf H. who was Austrian of course.
Everything is correct what you say. But the activists do their actions not because of the nationality of Mozart. I mentioned what they said.
Re the nationality issue of Mozart the simple facts are that the whole world considered, considers and will consider Mozart an Austrian. At first place the Austrian people. What happened 300+ years ago doesn't matter today. As well as many other historical facts.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
Although Mozart's mature career was based in Vienna. Mozart's father was German, and, as you point out, Mozart probably regarded himself as German, certainly in terms of culture. Mozart composed two German-language operas to indicate his cultural leanings.
Dan, Dan, Dan, there was NO Germany and even NO Austria in Mozart times. Salzburg was back then an independent city within the Roman Empire, ruled by an archbishop. Vienna was the capital city of the Empire.
The Austrian Empire has been founded in the early 19th century during the Napoleon times.
The German Empire (Germany) has been founded in 1871 mainly organised by Bismarck by uniting of several small states (Saxony, Bavaria, Baden and others) with the colossus Prussia. Of course, Prussia was the dominant in the Empire.
Re Mozart's language. No, it was not German. Even more there was no unified German language simply because there was no Germany. Mozart's language was typical for Salzburg and some Southern Austria areas. It was different to the near Bavaria language. Interesting is that even today the German speaking people can't comprehend the south Austrians.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Dan, Dan, Dan, there was NO Germany and even NO Austria in Mozart times. Salzburg was back then an independent city within the Roman Empire, ruled by an archbishop. Vienna was the capital city of the Empire.
The Austrian Empire has been founded in the early 19th century during the Napoleon times.
The German Empire (Germany) has been founded in 1871 mainly organised by Bismarck by uniting of several small states (Saxony, Bavaria, Baden and others) with the colossus Prussia. Of course, Prussia was the dominant in the Empire.
Re Mozart's language. No, it was not German. Even more there was no unified German language simply because there was no Germany. Mozart's language was typical for Salzburg and some Southern Austria areas. It was different to the near Bavaria language. Interesting is that even today the German speaking people can't comprehend the south Austrians.
A few corrections:
1) Mozart's language was of course German.
2) Even though there was no "German state" pre-1871 the sense of belonging to the same people was there at least from the 30-Years' War in the 17th century on.
3) Austria had been a monarchy since the 13th century, the Habsburg monarchy whose monarchs were at the same time Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire until 1806.
4) German speaking people can very well understand the people living in "South Austria" (Carinthia, Styria).
 

urban

Legend
In his letters, especially his youth letters to his sister, Mozart very often writes in Italian. He lived several years in Italy, and he toured through many courts in Europe where the nobilty mainly spoke French. His librettos are mainly Italian and in religious context Latin. He wrote of course letters in German, which as written common language existed since Luther, and before since Carolus Magnus as old high resp. middle high German. Maybe he spoke sometimes a dialect. In his early letters to his sister he often uses kids language, vocal play language and some vulgar phrases: Bona nox, bist a rechter ochs, bonna notte liebe lotte etc..
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
A few corrections:
1) Mozart's language was of course German.
2) Even though there was no "German state" pre-1871 the sense of belonging to the same people was there at least from the 30-Years' War in the 17th century on.
3) Austria had been a monarchy since the 13th century, the Habsburg monarchy whose monarchs were at the same time Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire until 1806.
4) German speaking people can very well understand the people living in "South Austria" (Carinthia, Styria).
Nope. This time you are wrong. This is the easier contemporary presentation of his life.
Already available and confirmed are historical facts that Mozart preferred to speak the native language of his mother, a native Salzburger. He refused to speak "the language" of his father, a native Augsburger, 230 km far from Salzburg.

Re the understanding of South Austrians this is the opinion of the native Germans not only by me. As well as many native Germans today don't fully understand the Bavarians. It's not a coincidence that the Germans call Upper German, Central German and Low German languages.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Nope. This time you are wrong. This is the easier contemporary presentation of his life.
Already available and confirmed are historical facts that Mozart preferred to speak the native language of his mother, a native Salzburger. He refused to speak "the language" of his father, a native Augsburger, 230 km far from Salzburg.

Re the understanding of South Austrians this is the opinion of the native Germans not only by me. As well as many native Germans today don't fully understand the Bavarians. It's not a coincidence that the Germans call Upper German, Central German and Low German languages.
People in Augsburg and Salzburg have been speaking German for centuries.
All Germans understand 99 % of Bavarians.
I should know.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
People in Augsburg and Salzburg have been speaking German for centuries.
All Germans understand 99 % of Bavarians.
I should know.
Ha-ha. You are representing "All Germans"!!! Wow!

Maybe you didn't read. The historical facts say about "the language" of his mother and "the language" of his father. OBVIOUSLY they were not the same.
Yes, you should know but you don't. The history speaks about the "famous" Prussian language. The Prussian language belonged to the Baltic group of Indoeuropean languages (but not to the Germanic) and is cognate with living Lithuanian and Latvian languages. The Baltic group of languages in its turn is closest to the Slavic group of languages (Czech, Serbian, Polish, Russian etc.).

The History speaks also about the Saxon language called Sächsisch. Even more the historians are talking about Upper Saxon and Low Saxon languages which were ... in different language groups. Upper Saxon had been spoken mainly in today's Thuringia. Low Saxon had been spoken in Northern Germany (Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Lower Saxony and the two city-states Hamburg and Bremen).

I can continue with Hessisch and other interesting languages. But let me tell you something funny. Do you know how is it called "daddy" in Hessisch? It is called Baba (Papa). Now do you know what does it mean Baba in Turkish? Ha, it's again "daddy". Once I told a sentence in Hessisch to my native German colleagues using also the word Baba. Nobody found what is Baba and 2 another words. Of course, nobody found the meaning of the sentence. :-D

So, forget about a "German" language in those ages.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Ha-ha. You are representing "All Germans"!!! Wow!

Maybe you didn't read. The historical facts say about "the language" of his mother and "the language" of his father. OBVIOUSLY they were not the same.
Yes, you should know but you don't. The history speaks about the "famous" Prussian language. The Prussian language belonged to the Baltic group of Indoeuropean languages (but not to the Germanic) and is cognate with living Lithuanian and Latvian languages. The Baltic group of languages in its turn is closest to the Slavic group of languages (Czech, Serbian, Polish, Russian etc.).

The History speaks also about the Saxon language called Sächsisch. Even more the historians are talking about Upper Saxon and Low Saxon languages which were ... in different language groups. Upper Saxon had been spoken mainly in today's Thuringia. Low Saxon had been spoken in Northern Germany (Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Lower Saxony and the two city-states Hamburg and Bremen).

I can continue with Hessisch and other interesting languages. But let me tell you something funny. Do you know how is it called "daddy" in Hessisch? It is called Baba (Papa). Now do you know what does it mean Baba in Turkish? Ha, it's again "daddy". Once I told a sentence in Hessisch to my native German colleagues using also the word Baba. Nobody found what is Baba and 2 another words. Of course, nobody found the meaning of the sentence. :-D

So, forget about a "German" language in those ages.
Some joker trying to tell a German who himself is half Bavarian and half Northern Germany and has relatives in both parts of the country what German is.
Hey, it's the internet... :laughing:

95 % of the people in old Prussia spoke German back in the late 19th century, maybe 5 % the "Prussian language" you obviously talking of.
100 % of all Hessians and Bavarians and Saxonians.
You are confusing languages with dialects.

And of course Mozart spoke German, what else?
Same as Austrians today.
Go to any Austria website and have a look at the language selector. English, maybe French, maybe Spanish - and of course German.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
Some joker trying to tell a German who himself is half Bavarian and half Northern Germany and has relatives in both parts of the country what German is.
Hey, it's the internet... :laughing:

95 % of the people in old Prussia spoke German back in the late 19th century, maybe 5 % the "Prussian language" you obviously talking of.
100 % of all Hessians and Bavarians and Saxonians.
You are confusing languages with dialects.

And of course Mozart spoke German, what else?
Same as Austrians today.
Go to any Austria website and have a look at the language selector. English, maybe French, maybe Spanish - and of course German.
Hmmm. You are driven by hard patriotic feelings. I understand that. Unfortunately you don't know the history of the multiple languages spoken on the territories of today's Germany and Austria. But don't worry. You are not alone. And internet can't help you. Many many Germans, Frenchmen, Italians, Americans don't know their own history.

Again you are not reading. Prussian language was FAR FAR FAR away from the German language. It was NOT a part of the Germanic languages. It was a part of the Baltic languages. This is determined by the historians and linguists, not by me.
You are mentioning "late 19th century". Are you sleeping already? We talked about Mozart times !!! Nevermind. From the Teutonic knights times (13th century) to late 19th century the Prussian language in Prussia was the ONLY practicing language. Slight beginnings of the language change started after the incorporation of the German Empire. The REAL changes in Prussian language came with a big project of the Nazis in late 20s called Germanisation. During this project they changed thousands of Prussian words and thousands of ... Prussian names.

To not know about Mozart is understandable. To not know the history of your own language is very bad.

One easy task for you. Tell me what is the Prussian word for shoes (Schuhe) and the old Germanic word for Schuhe. :oops:
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Hmmm. You are driven by hard patriotic feelings. I understand that. Unfortunately you don't know the history of the multiple languages spoken on the territories of today's Germany and Austria. But don't worry. You are not alone. And internet can't help you. Many many Germans, Frenchmen, Italians, Americans don't know their own history.

Again you are not reading. Prussian language was FAR FAR FAR away from the German language. It was NOT a part of the Germanic languages. It was a part of the Baltic languages. ....
What have "patriotic feelings" to do with the question whether a German language existed in Mozart's time?
Of course it did.
It was spoken by 95 % of the people in the territory of today's Germany and Austria. Including Salzburg and Vienna.

Prussia of the late 18th century was located mostly in today's Poland. But even there most people spoke - German.
Sorry, that's a fact.
You have to be able to read Wikipedia articles with a clear mind, son:

"Old Prussian ceased to be spoken probably around the beginning of the 18th century, due to many of its remaining speakers dying in the famines and the bubonic plague outbreakwhich harrowed the East Prussian countryside and towns from 1709 until 1711. The Germanic regional dialect of Low German spoken in Prussia (or East Prussia), called Low Prussian (cf. High Prussian, also a Germanic language), preserved a number of Baltic Prussian words, such as kurp, from the Old Prussian kurpi, for shoe in contrast to common Low German Schoh (standard German Schuh)."
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Hmmm. You are driven by hard patriotic feelings. I understand that. Unfortunately you don't know the history of the multiple languages spoken on the territories of today's Germany and Austria. But don't worry. You are not alone. And internet can't help you. Many many Germans, Frenchmen, Italians, Americans don't know their own history.

Again you are not reading. Prussian language was FAR FAR FAR away from the German language. It was NOT a part of the Germanic languages. It was a part of the Baltic languages. This is determined by the historians and linguists, not by me.
You are mentioning "late 19th century". Are you sleeping already? We talked about Mozart times !!! Nevermind. From the Teutonic knights times (13th century) to late 19th century the Prussian language in Prussia was the ONLY practicing language. Slight beginnings of the language change started after the incorporation of the German Empire. The REAL changes in Prussian language came with a big project of the Nazis in late 20s called Germanisation. During this project they changed thousands of Prussian words and thousands of ... Prussian names.

To not know about Mozart is understandable. To not know the history of your own language is very bad.

One easy task for you. Tell me what is the Prussian word for shoes (Schuhe) and the old Germanic word for Schuhe. :oops:
As usual, Ivan, you have wandered FAR FAR FAR away from the subject I mentioned, Mozart's language which he used in the Seraglio and Zauberflote, both operas were Singspiele, a combination of spoken words and music. Read the libretti of those two operas, and you will see the German language being used.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
What have "patriotic feelings" to do with the question whether a German language existed in Mozart's time?
Of course it did.
It was spoken by 95 % of the people in the territory of today's Germany and Austria. Including Salzburg and Vienna.

Prussia of the late 18th century was located mostly in today's Poland. But even there most people spoke - German.
Sorry, that's a fact.
You have to be able to read Wikipedia articles with a clear mind, son:

"Old Prussian ceased to be spoken probably around the beginning of the 18th century, due to many of its remaining speakers dying in the famines and the bubonic plague outbreakwhich harrowed the East Prussian countryside and towns from 1709 until 1711. The Germanic regional dialect of Low German spoken in Prussia (or East Prussia), called Low Prussian (cf. High Prussian, also a Germanic language), preserved a number of Baltic Prussian words, such as kurp, from the Old Prussian kurpi, for shoe in contrast to common Low German Schoh (standard German Schuh)."
Good that you put some efforts to find it. I told it's easy. Even though you repeat the same wrong words. The Prussian word "kurpi" which means shoes is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to the old Germanic word "Schoh". This is what you need to see. They were very very different languages. And maybe you don't know the origin of the word "kurpi" (it's not in Wiki). It's a Latvian word and still exists in the Latvian language and means ... shoes.
Finally you need to understand that there were many many languages in those times - 16th, 17th, 18th century. As well as in Germany (10+ languages), but also in Austria (at least 3 languages), Italy (at least 5), Belgium, Netherlands, England.

About Prussia - again wrong. The territories of the Kingdom of Prussia were spread from the so called back then Westphalia through the whole Northern Germany to Poland and.Czechia.

Instead of calling me son better start reading the real history. I know exactly what was the Mozart's language. Obviously you don't. And it's NOT GERMAN! ;)You can find it yourselves from Mozart's archives. If you don't want I will tell you. But before that you have to admit that you don't know it.

I don't intend to discuss this theme anymore as you stubbornly ignore the historical facts. As the wise people have said it's not bad if a person doesn't know something. The bad thing is when the person doesn't want to know it.

Be safe!
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Good that you put some efforts to find it. I told it's easy. Even though you repeat the same wrong words. The Prussian word "kurpi" which means shoes is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to the old Germanic word "Schoh". ...
About Prussia - again wrong. The territories of the Kingdom of Prussia were spread from the so called back then Westphalia through the whole Northern Germany to Poland and.Czechia.
...
Dude, your "(Old) Prussian language" went extinct in Prussia in the early 18th century. From then on the Prussians spoke German, only a few Polish.

And here is Prussia in 1800, nine years after Mozart's death:
Almost 90 % of the Prussian territory was where today Poland and Lithuania are located. Only about 10 % on the soil of today's Germany.
You are confusing Prussia of the 18th century with Prussia after 1815; from then on Prussia spread over to the Rhine river and beyond.

Now stop it before you embarrass yourself even more.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
Dude, your "(Old) Prussian language" went extinct in Prussia in the early 18th century. From then on the Prussians spoke German, only a few Polish.

And here is Prussia in 1800, nine years after Mozart's death:
Almost 90 % of the Prussian territory was where today Poland and Lithuania are located. Only about 10 % on the soil of today's Germany.
You are confusing Prussia of the 18th century with Prussia after 1815; from then on Prussia spread over to the Rhine river and beyond.

Now stop it before you embarrass yourself even more.
You can continue with your doubtful sources.
Instead of that you may see that BERLIN was the capital city of Prussia (and then Germany) from 1701 to 1947 !!!!! Changed from Königsberg (today in Russia). "90% was Poland and Lithuania" but they chose Berlin for capital city !!!!!! Think, dude, think! Copy/paste from internet is not enough.

Here is something from Britannica, world-class source:
"Prussia, German Preussen, Polish Prusy, in European history, any of certain areas of eastern and central Europe, respectively the land of the Prussians on the southeastern coast of the Baltic Sea, which came under Polish and German rule in the Middle Ages, the kingdom ruled from 1701 by the German Hohenzollern dynasty, including Prussia and Brandenburg, with Berlin as its capital, seized much of northern Germany and western Poland in the 18th and 19th centuries and united Germany under its leadership in 1871."

"The Prussians spoke German" ??? A lot of fantasy. Now let's begin with the history again, not with your simple statements.
Frederick the Great (Friedrich der Große), King of Prussia in the 18th century, hated the German language. Proven 100%. The official languages in Prussia were Latin (first language), Polish and .... French. NO GERMAN, dear Mr./Ms Schweikart !!! And the same Friedrich loved Latin and French.
Somewhere around 1770 Frederick agreed that the Prussian laws will be translated also into "plattdüts" (the experts translate it as a plain, understandable German), one of the many existing "German" languages, spoken only in North Germany. But plattdüts has been used only for the laws, nothing else.
As I said already (based on the historians) the real germanisation (unification) of the language started in late 20s of the 20th century.

Somehow you ignored the BIG difference b/w the words "curpi" and "Schoh". Well, the whole languages had different words, not only some words.
Another task for you, more complex. What is the meaning of the word "reddan"?
And please check how many German-Prussian dictionaries (vocabularies) have been published in the 19th century. Why did they need dictionaries by the way ??? :rolleyes:
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.

I would like to listen to that interview.
Who knows, maybe Trabert meant his 1954 Davis Cup match against Hoad, the one he won and when he won the Davis Cup.
You should post a link and share....

Maybe he didn’t feel the pro level. Fact is in 1955 he dominated the field and in 1956 he was dominated and beaten by three players.

Maybe there were no official ranks, but Gonzales was the best player in the world for many years, official rankings or not.
Trabert actually once made a comment that he played his best tennis in that 1953 match in Davis Cup and felt that he was outplaying Hoad, but still lost, whereas in the 1954 Davis Cup match against Hoad, Trabert felt that Hoad was outplaying him, but Trabert still won the match. It just shows how a player feels about how they are playing does not tell the whole story.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
You can continue with your doubtful sources.
...
What about this is not true:

1) Dude, your "(Old) Prussian language" went extinct in Prussia in the early 18th century. From then on the Prussians spoke German, only a few Polish.

2) And here is Prussia in 1800, nine years after Mozart's death:
http://cliomaps.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/1800-EU-FGL.png


I have rarely met someone on the internet who is as dense as you.
What do you want to prove?
Some sinister Slavic revisionist history, considering your name "Ivan"?

Again:
Mozart was a native German speaker.
During Mozart's life time 95 % of Prussians spoke German.
What the hell is so difficult to accept there?
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
I do, he spoke of course German.
To say otherwise just shows utter ignorance.

Again, what language did he speak in your opinion, his native language?
I want to have a good laugh.
Admit that you don't know it and I'll tell you. When you don't know something just try to find it or ask. It's so simple. ;)
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
What about this is not true:

1) Dude, your "(Old) Prussian language" went extinct in Prussia in the early 18th century. From then on the Prussians spoke German, only a few Polish.

2) And here is Prussia in 1800, nine years after Mozart's death:
http://cliomaps.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/1800-EU-FGL.png


I have rarely met someone on the internet who is as dense as you.
What do you want to prove?
Some sinister Slavic revisionist history, considering your name "Ivan"?

Again:
Mozart was a native German speaker.
During Mozart's life time 95 % of Prussians spoke German.
What the hell is so difficult to accept there?
No revision, Mr/Ms Schweikart! Personally I don't want to prove anything. I don't change the history. The history is just in the papers. The only thing is that this history has to be read. In details and analytically, from the proper sources.

I told you before. If you don't want to read properly without your own prejudices that's only your problem. If you want the real truth you can find it. Not so easy but it's possible. Or you can ask for facts. If you do believe in what you want to believe that's a different stuff.

We discussed several days this issue and you haven't responded to ANY of the facts I presented. And these facts, dear Mr/Ms Schweikart, are not mine. Neither they are Slavic, ha-ha!:-D Your fantasies are endless. All these facts were researched by Austrian and German experts.

Repeat 1,000 times what you want. The truth is different. No matter you like it or not.

And again:
What is the meaning of the word "reddan"?
How many German-Prussian dictionaries (vocabularies) have been published in the 19th century?
If the Prussians spoke "German" why did they need dictionaries????????????????????? :oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::rolleyes:

You don't need to answer me. Bye-bye.
 

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
As usual, Ivan, you have wandered FAR FAR FAR away from the subject I mentioned, Mozart's language which he used in the Seraglio and Zauberflote, both operas were Singspiele, a combination of spoken words and music. Read the libretti of those two operas, and you will see the German language being used.
Danny, Danny, Danny! Again interfering without at least reading what were the facts. More embarrassing is the like of urban who at least can check your words.
So, Danny, to the facts and to see how many errors you have.

First of all the opera is called "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" ("The Abduction from the Seraglio") not just Seraglio. Il Seraglio has been called shortly in Italian.

Libretist of "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" is NOT Mozart, dear Danny. The original libretist is named Christoph Friedrich Bretzner. After Mozart wrote the music another man named Johann Gottlieb Stephanie adapted the Bretzner's libretto to the music. Mozart disliked some parts of the libretto, changed some phrases but had no time for more. As a whole the libretto remained mostly unchanged. Per order of the Austrian Emperor Joseph II the libretto has been written in German language to oppose to the wide-spread back then Italian-language operas.

Libretist of "Die Zauberflöte" is NOT Mozart, dear Danny. The original (and the only) libretist is named Emanuel Schikaneder - libretist, singer and composer. Schikaneder also played the role of Papageno. No need to say that the opera should have been written in German which became a tradition.

So, Danny, don't speak about Mozart's language in his operas and not his librettos. The story is very very different.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Danny, Danny, Danny! Again interfering without at least reading what were the facts. More embarrassing is the like of urban who at least can check your words.
So, Danny, to the facts and to see how many errors you have.

First of all the opera is called "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" ("The Abduction from the Seraglio") not just Seraglio. Il Seraglio has been called shortly in Italian.

Libretist of "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" is NOT Mozart, dear Danny. The original libretist is named Christoph Friedrich Bretzner. After Mozart wrote the music another man named Johann Gottlieb Stephanie adapted the Bretzner's libretto to the music. Mozart disliked some parts of the libretto, changed some phrases but had no time for more. As a whole the libretto remained mostly unchanged. Per order of the Austrian Emperor Joseph II the libretto has been written in German language to oppose to the wide-spread back then Italian-language operas.

Libretist of "Die Zauberflöte" is NOT Mozart, dear Danny. The original (and the only) libretist is named Emanuel Schikaneder - libretist, singer and composer. Schikaneder also played the role of Papageno. No need to say that the opera should have been written in German which became a tradition.

So, Danny, don't speak about Mozart's language in his operas and not his librettos. The story is very very different.
Ivan, Ivan, Ivan again you manage to miss the point....the language used in both Serail and Zauberflote is German, in a Singspiel, a specifically German form of opera. Mozart and Schikaneder used this language in daily speech, it was the language of their Viennese audiences.
 
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