Ready to serve? Hope Nadal isn't across the net........

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Nadal and Schwartzman leading return points won :)

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Infosys ATP Beyond The Numbers examines the potent returns of Spanish and Argentine players


The two best returners on the planet in 2019 and the first two months of 2020 were Rafael Nadal and Diego Schwartzman.
An Infosys ATP Beyond The Numbers analysis of their prowess winning points that begin by absorbing and redirecting the power of a serve identifies two key areas that help elevate them above all others:
• Technique - developing their return of serve skill set to the highest possible level.
• Location - growing up in a culture in Spain and Argentina that perennially produces the best returners in our sport.
Nadal and Schwartzman were the only two players to win north of 42 per cent of their return points during the 14-month period, which was significantly higher than the ATP Tour average of 36 per cent.
Return Points Won (Jan 2019 - Feb 2020)
1. Nadal = 42.39% (2499/5895)
2. Schwartzman = 42.07% (2689/6391)
Both Nadal and Schwartzman like to stand well behind the baseline to return, providing the opportunity for the serve to slow down marginally more, which helps them avoid being rushed by the raw power of the biggest shot in our sport.
Did Nadal and Schwartzman have an advantage developing their return of serve by growing up in Spain and Argentina? They absolutely did, as both countries are a perennial hotbed producing the best returners in our game.
Career Return Metrics (1991-2020)
Spain and Argentina account for seven of the leading 10 players in the Career Return Points Won category and 44 per cent of the Top 50. The data set includes players that competed in at least 100 ATP Tour and Grand Slam matches from 1991-2020, excluding Davis Cup ties.
The top four spots are a trade-off between the two countries with Argentina’s Guillermo Coria leading the way, followed by Spain’s Nadal, then Argentina’s Franco Davin, and Spain’s Alberto Berasategui. The three other players ranked in the leading 10 spots from the two countries are seventh-ranked David Ferrer (ESP), eighth-ranked Francisco Roig (ESP), and ninth-ranked Guillermo Perez-Roldan (ARG).
Coria led all players with a career-leading 43.7 per cent (11,139/25,492) of return points won against first and second serves. His metrics at Roland Garros, where he went 17-7, were some of his career best, winning a dominant 48.06 per cent (1217/2530) of return points. Coria reached the final of Roland Garros in 2004, winning very close to half of all return points played for the tournament at 49.85 per cent (333/668).
The 10 Argentine players ranked in the leading 50 players with return points won are listed below.
Argentines - Leading 50 Players Return Points Won

Return RatingPlayerReturn Win Percentage
1Guillermo Coria43.70%
3Franco Davin42.37%
9Guillermo Perez-Roldan41.89%
16Diego Schwartzman41.71%
23David Nalbandian41.32%
26Gaston Gaudio41.27%
27Horacio De La Pena41.22%
33Juan Monaco40.77%
39Juan Ignacio Chela40.55%
44Guillermo Canas40.36%
Nadal was the elite Spaniard, and it is in Monte Carlo where he has posted the best return metrics of his illustrious career. He has won a staggering 49.93 per cent (2369/4745) of return points in the principality. At Roland Garros, Nadal has also been well above his career average, winning an impressive 47.82 per cent (4245/8877) of return points.
The 12 Spaniards in the leading 50 players with return points won are in the table below.
Spaniards - Leading 50 Players Return Points Won

Return RatingPlayerReturn Win Percentage
2Rafael Nadal42.42%
4Alberto Berasategui42.25%
7David Ferrer41.98%
8Francisco Roig41.92%
12Jordi Arrese41.82%
17Carlos Costa41.63%
18Sergi Bruguera41.61%
22Tomas Carbonell41.33%
32Francisco Clavet40.86%
35Alex Corretja40.67%
The fifth-placed player, Michael Chang, was one of just three Americans in the leading 50 players, along with Andre Agassi (15th) and Aaron Krickstein (50th). Chang’s best tournaments with return points won (min. 1000 return points) were on hard courts at Atlanta (46.13%), Washington, D.C. (44.69%), and Los Angeles (44.49%). The third-placed country overall was Sweden, with four players placed in the leading 50 returners. They were:
•No. 21 Magnus Gustafsson = 41.44%
•No. 25 Stefan Edberg = 41.28%
•No. 40 Christian Bergstrom = 40.48%
•No. 45 Jonas Svensson = 40.32%
When Spaniards compete against Argentines, you know a crucial sub-plot is to be the best returner on the court.


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ChrisRF

Legend
Didnt see who the op was, was expecting a different thread.

Ready to serve? Hope it isnt Nadal at the other side of the net...

or you might be left standing waiting for an awful long time.
Seriously, I wanted to post exactly the same. You beat me by a minute. ;)

However, I saw the name of the OP just before I opened the topic and then wondered how the thread would look instead of Rafa bashing.
 

40L0VE

Professional
'Useless' stats until we see data that isolates the actual return it self and broken down by surface.

I note Coria for example has played just over 60% of all career matches on clay. Taking into account the bigger servers in history have generally and historically played more on faster surfaces surely Coria's numbers can't be inflated by surface can it? Surely not?
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
In a way this clip also illustrates Ivos prowess when he gets Nadal and Toni to react this way in a masters. Nobody wanted to play against him, especially top players who could draw him in first rounds of slams.

Clip also illustrates that Nadal 2015 wasn't as bad as he gets made out to be.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal and Schwartzman leading return points won :)

17615f5095dc.jpg


Infosys ATP Beyond The Numbers examines the potent returns of Spanish and Argentine players


The two best returners on the planet in 2019 and the first two months of 2020 were Rafael Nadal and Diego Schwartzman.
An Infosys ATP Beyond The Numbers analysis of their prowess winning points that begin by absorbing and redirecting the power of a serve identifies two key areas that help elevate them above all others:
• Technique - developing their return of serve skill set to the highest possible level.
• Location - growing up in a culture in Spain and Argentina that perennially produces the best returners in our sport.
Nadal and Schwartzman were the only two players to win north of 42 per cent of their return points during the 14-month period, which was significantly higher than the ATP Tour average of 36 per cent.
Return Points Won (Jan 2019 - Feb 2020)
1. Nadal = 42.39% (2499/5895)
2. Schwartzman = 42.07% (2689/6391)
Both Nadal and Schwartzman like to stand well behind the baseline to return, providing the opportunity for the serve to slow down marginally more, which helps them avoid being rushed by the raw power of the biggest shot in our sport.
Did Nadal and Schwartzman have an advantage developing their return of serve by growing up in Spain and Argentina? They absolutely did, as both countries are a perennial hotbed producing the best returners in our game.
Career Return Metrics (1991-2020)
Spain and Argentina account for seven of the leading 10 players in the Career Return Points Won category and 44 per cent of the Top 50. The data set includes players that competed in at least 100 ATP Tour and Grand Slam matches from 1991-2020, excluding Davis Cup ties.
The top four spots are a trade-off between the two countries with Argentina’s Guillermo Coria leading the way, followed by Spain’s Nadal, then Argentina’s Franco Davin, and Spain’s Alberto Berasategui. The three other players ranked in the leading 10 spots from the two countries are seventh-ranked David Ferrer (ESP), eighth-ranked Francisco Roig (ESP), and ninth-ranked Guillermo Perez-Roldan (ARG).
Coria led all players with a career-leading 43.7 per cent (11,139/25,492) of return points won against first and second serves. His metrics at Roland Garros, where he went 17-7, were some of his career best, winning a dominant 48.06 per cent (1217/2530) of return points. Coria reached the final of Roland Garros in 2004, winning very close to half of all return points played for the tournament at 49.85 per cent (333/668).
The 10 Argentine players ranked in the leading 50 players with return points won are listed below.
Argentines - Leading 50 Players Return Points Won

Return RatingPlayerReturn Win Percentage
1Guillermo Coria43.70%
3Franco Davin42.37%
9Guillermo Perez-Roldan41.89%
16Diego Schwartzman41.71%
23David Nalbandian41.32%
26Gaston Gaudio41.27%
27Horacio De La Pena41.22%
33Juan Monaco40.77%
39Juan Ignacio Chela40.55%
44Guillermo Canas40.36%
Nadal was the elite Spaniard, and it is in Monte Carlo where he has posted the best return metrics of his illustrious career. He has won a staggering 49.93 per cent (2369/4745) of return points in the principality. At Roland Garros, Nadal has also been well above his career average, winning an impressive 47.82 per cent (4245/8877) of return points.
The 12 Spaniards in the leading 50 players with return points won are in the table below.
Spaniards - Leading 50 Players Return Points Won

Return RatingPlayerReturn Win Percentage
2Rafael Nadal42.42%
4Alberto Berasategui42.25%
7David Ferrer41.98%
8Francisco Roig41.92%
12Jordi Arrese41.82%
17Carlos Costa41.63%
18Sergi Bruguera41.61%
22Tomas Carbonell41.33%
32Francisco Clavet40.86%
35Alex Corretja40.67%
The fifth-placed player, Michael Chang, was one of just three Americans in the leading 50 players, along with Andre Agassi (15th) and Aaron Krickstein (50th). Chang’s best tournaments with return points won (min. 1000 return points) were on hard courts at Atlanta (46.13%), Washington, D.C. (44.69%), and Los Angeles (44.49%). The third-placed country overall was Sweden, with four players placed in the leading 50 returners. They were:
•No. 21 Magnus Gustafsson = 41.44%
•No. 25 Stefan Edberg = 41.28%
•No. 40 Christian Bergstrom = 40.48%
•No. 45 Jonas Svensson = 40.32%
When Spaniards compete against Argentines, you know a crucial sub-plot is to be the best returner on the court.


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All these return stats have a massive clay bias for obvious reasons

David Ferrer would consistently be at the top or near the top in returning, statistically
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Nadal started playing a bit better in the fall season. During most of the year he was absolutely pathetic.

Good to see you ack that Djokovic got some wins over a Nadal that wasn't the absolute pits that year, as that clip illustrates, Nadal couldn't have been THAT bad during that fall if he did that to Karlovic. (y)
 
D

Deleted member 770948

Guest
Nadal isn’t even in the discussion for best ROS. It’s Agassi, Djokovic and Jimbo, in whatever order you want to put them. Murray also had a phenomenal ROS.
They have great reputations, but that doesn't mean they are as great as Rafa.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Nadal isn’t even in the discussion for best ROS. It’s Agassi, Djokovic and Jimbo, in whatever order you want to put them. Murray also had a phenomenal ROS.
Sure Nadal isn't in the GOAT discussion for ROS, but it's still a world-class return. Sure he stands back and doesn't hit aggressive returns, but he gets his racquet on more serves than anyone else and gets himself into the point. His return is ATG not as a standalone shot, but for its ability to get him in the rally and deny cheap points.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Sure Nadal isn't in the GOAT discussion for ROS, but it's still a world-class return. Sure he stands back and doesn't hit aggressive returns, but he gets his racquet on more serves than anyone else and gets himself into the point. His return is ATG not as a standalone shot, but for its ability to get him in the rally and deny cheap points.

Obviously his return game itself is better than the single shot, but I don't agree with this. Nadal is a great returner, at least better than he gets credit for on TTW. If he sucked so bad at the return he wouldn't even have the chance to play the second shot. Standing where he does makes it very hard to hit effective serves against him most of the time, though to be fair he certainly has matches where it hurts too.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Obviously his return game itself is better than the single shot, but I don't agree with this. Nadal is a great returner, at least better than he gets credit for on TTW. If he sucked so bad at the return he wouldn't even have the chance to play the second shot. Standing where he does makes it very hard to hit effective serves against him most of the time, though to be fair he certainly has matches where it hurts too.
I agree that Nadal's return is one of the best in the game, but I don't think he has a case for GOAT in this department. He doesn't have a great aggressive return and his habit of standing somewhere in Timbuktu to return serve has caused him problems on fast surfaces.
 

Subway Tennis

G.O.A.T.

Literally watched this match again yesterday. One of the craziest, out of control matches of the last few years imo.

A lot of fun to watch, just wish Nadal had landed that BH up the line on one of the match points! :mad:

I think this is the most frustrated I have ever seen Nadal in a match and the handshake at the end wasn't just a "drive-by", it was a "hit and run"! Nadal very angry with how things played out and the very pro-Rafa crowd was booing Kyrgios wildly.

GOATY af. Remember watching live. It's weird bc he clearly CAN do that, so he should more.

Agree with this. We have seen so many examples of Rafa being able to do pretty much anything with a racquet. But he is often obsessed with playing the percentages. And I think part of that for him is almost never dumping a return of serve. It's part of what has made him great, and so reliable, but it is also quite frustrating sometimes. 2012 AO was a nice example of how sick his aggressive R.O.S could be on even his worst surface. He was going insanely big and making everything.
 
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King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Literally watched this match again yesterday. One of the craziest, out of control matches of the last few years imo.

A lot of fun to watch, just wish Nadal had landed that BH up the line on one of the match points! :mad:

I think this is most frustrated I have ever seen Nadal in a match and the handshake at the end wasn't just a "drive-by", it was a "hit and run"! Nadal very angry with how things played out and the very pro-Rata crowd was booing Kyrgios wildly.
That rivalry gives me the McEnroe-Lendl vibe. Neither player likes the other, one is a talented brat who thinks their no-nonsense hardworking opponent isn't worth sh*t, resulting in some entertaining grudge matches.
Box-office stuff!
 

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
That rivalry gives me the McEnroe-Lendl vibe. Neither player likes the other, one is a talented brat who thinks their no-nonsense hardworking opponent isn't worth sh*t, resulting in some entertaining grudge matches.
Box-office stuff!

The identical 6-3, 3-6, 7-6, 7-6 last two meetings were both very high level matches.
 

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
Clip also illustrates that Nadal 2015 wasn't as bad as he gets made out to be.
Nadal and Novak depend on defense. Their defensive stats never fall much except when they are injured or coming back from injury. Fed it the opposite. His serving stats have been pretty rock solid except in 2013. He's weaker years have been when his defensive stats fell. In 2015 Nadal's serving games on all surfaces fell to 83.32%. That's why he was awful that year. That stat was 90.09%. So in terms of overall game, Rafa's level was just as awful in 2015 as it was made out to be, and not only because of the serve. But we have to remember that a bad year for rafa is an excellent year for most other players. ;)
 

Subway Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Why is he having so much trouble returning to Djokovic these days? Non-clay surfaces ofcourse

Djokovic is in the top four or five servers in tennis. Additionally, Nadal neutralizes big servers by making sure he gets the ball back in play and essentially "resets" the point, heaping the pressure on the server to make the play. That very clever percentage tactic is not as effective against a baseline monster like Djokovic, one of the few guys who can stand and bang with Nadal.

Djokovic also has a second serve that might be the best in the game and he is incredibly "clutch" in the way he can save big points with it.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Nadal and Novak depend on defense. Their defensive stats never fall much except when they are injured or coming back from injury. Fed it the opposite. His serving stats have been pretty rock solid except in 2013. He's weaker years have been when his defensive stats fell. In 2015 Nadal's serving games on all surfaces fell to 83.32%. That's why he was awful that year. That stat was 90.09%. So in terms of overall game, Rafa's level was just as awful in 2015 as it was made out to be, and not only because of the serve. But we have to remember that a bad year for rafa is an excellent year for most other players. ;)
Rafa reached more Slam QF's in 2015 than Zverev had in his entire career (until 2020).
 
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