Real People Can't Serve

[Steady Eddy]

I don't know anything about tanner,

He was a big name in the 70's. He was especially known for his powerful serve.

but I would imagine someone who can hit 140 mph would absolutely never have trouble hitting 100mph even under pressure. I can see him struggling to hit 120-140 in that environment but not 100.

That's what I assumed before watching him on the Carson show. I sure didn't think he'd start out in the 80's. Struggle to get into the 90's. And after quite awhile, (it seemed like, anyway), he finally breaks 100 mph. Made me wonder if the 140 reading was a technical error. Some argued that he wasn't warmed up and couldn't get a foot grip without tennis shoes, but it showed me that if he struggled to break 90, no way do the hackers I play open up @ 100 mph.

IMO, lots of league players do one or both of two things:

#1 - overestimate the mphs of their serve

#2 - have never actually clocked their serve with a radar gun, and have no basis to even speculate

Right, a golfer can go to the driving range and see how far he hits hit. But in pro tennis an 80 mph serve is slow, so it's hard to believe that it would seem fast to other players, but it is. At tennis mixers and social get togethers, I think the wicked, fast, serves probably don't go faster than 85 mph.

 

[magmasilk]

Johnny Carson invited Roscoe Tanner to come on The Tonight Show and demonstrate his serve. Everyone had heard about Tanner's 140 mph serves. I was surprised when his first attempts were only in the 80's. Later, he hit a few in the 90's. Eventually, he broke 100, but it took awhile. This makes me skeptical about all the people who believe they serve over 100 mph.

IMO, lots of league players do one or both of two things:

#1 - overestimate the mphs of their serve

#2 - have never actually clocked their serve with a radar gun, and have no basis to even speculate

i prolly would have thought most people don't serve fast, but that is why i thought it was so interesting to see the legg mason display because we have the same radar gun and court just like the ones used by the pro's ... not your friend holding a $50 gun aimed kinda at your racket.

7.0 hewitt/querry slices and kickers in the 90's
3.5 overweight taller guy pancaked the ball and got 88
3.5 smaller/shorter with a puredrive hit 99
4.0+ lanky taller with pretty good form hit 115 (almost in / it looked in from my seat)

This doesn't include the +100 numbers that the one guy said they put up in the legg mason practice courts.

also, i looked up the one guy (3.5 who hit 99mph) on tennislink and he is a high 3.5/low 4.0; but by no means a ringer. I didn't play him but have played peeps he played.

So again based on this and my experience in 3.5 i'd say ~2 peeps on every team can top 100mph. Of course placment and spin is worlds of different from pros to ams.

 

[heycal]

He was a big name in the 70's. He was especially known for his powerful serve.

That's what I assumed before watching him on the Carson show. I sure didn't think he'd start out in the 80's. Struggle to get into the 90's. And after quite awhile, (it seemed like, anyway), he finally breaks 100 mph. Made me wonder if the 140 reading was a technical error. Some argued that he wasn't warmed up and couldn't get a foot grip without tennis shoes, but it showed me that if he struggled to break 90, no way do the hackers I play open up @ 100 mph.

I imagine trying not to hit Ed or Doc with the serves inhibited his speed somewhat.

How is that you have such detailed knowledge of what happened on a TV show over 30 years ago? You have this on DVD or something?

 

[Cindysphinx]

I remember that Carson show also. Can't say for sure that it wasn't a re-run or highlights show. But I was 18 thirty years ago, so maybe SteadyEddy is my generation, the poor guy.

 

[newtk]

I saw that too. Tanner was known for his compact fast serve, a lefty I believe. His toss was low, almost looked like he hit it on the way up. His serve motion was quick and difficult to time. I was a little surprised, expecting a higher speed as well. Johnny Carson was an avid player and enjoyed singles and was trying to inject some new stuff into TV. Who knows how accurate the measurment was.

He was probably more concerned about an injury than showing the world a 140 mph serve. Just like Roddick, 155 doesn't happen every day especially cold in street clothes. Besides, it doesn't matter how fast you serve once or how fast you can work up to but how well you serve during the entire match and how your body feels afterward. If that shoulder or elbow hurts then that fast serve won't last. It is easy to get caught up in the testostrone...hahaha.

BTW...I started hitting again (after being away from the game for 12 years) about 6 months ago and ended up with a left calve tear and golfer's elbow. I'm 53 and hopeful that my techique improves so that I can enjoy the game in my old age....

 

[pmerk34]

Then they must not be "very good"

Right, because no one has ever see a pro fall to pieces in a match either.

 

[newtk]

Wow, just looked him up on google....a guess a big serve doesn't guarantee a good life

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060119/ai_n16026046/

Oh, by the way. The older I get the more I appreciate "Real" people.

 

[pmerk34]

Wow, just looked him up on google....a guess a big serve doesn't guarantee a good life

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060119/ai_n16026046/

Oh, by the way. The older I get the more I appreciate "Real" people.

I'm sure everyone on these boards would like Sam Querrey does if their serve was on camera.

 

[Steady Eddy]

How is that you have such detailed knowledge of what happened on a TV show over 30 years ago?

I remember that Carson show also. Can't say for sure that it wasn't a re-run or highlights show. But I was 18 thirty years ago, so maybe SteadyEddy is my generation, the poor guy.

I was 2 years old!

I saw that too.

At least it DID happen and it's not my imagination. I remember it because I watched the show just to see Tanner. I also figured that anybody who can serve 140 mph can literally, break 100 mph with his 3/4 speed serve. I was surprised to see how hard it was to do that.

BTW, then Johnny Carson proudly hit some serves in the 80's. Then, as now, I didn't think that was a big deal. Esp the way they had it on the show, no court, you just hit into a net, so no reason to believe that those serves would have been in.

 

[Rhinosaur]

1) No warm up? That seems unfair. I have a pretty good serve (not bragging...it's the ONLY thing I do well), and going out cold and trying to rifle a 100+ mph serve is tough.

2) Pure Drive GT+ -- my new racket. I served with it for the first time last night. About 50 serves to adjust, then I was knocking holes in the court with my serve. Love it.

3) This was the equivalent of a long drive contest. Is the longest drive mean the best player? No. I've seen 3.5 and under players with great serves and 4.0 players with average serves. Those coming on this board and saying a some player isn't good because they can't serve fast is a bit nearsighted.

 

[heycal]

I was 2 years old!

At least it DID happen and it's not my imagination. I remember it because I watched the show just to see Tanner. .

So you're telling the ladies and gentlemen of this jury that, as a 2 year old, you watched an episode of Carson just to see Tanner serving?

Better get yourself a lawyer before you say anything further.

 

[Steady Eddy]

1) No warm up? That seems unfair. I have a pretty good serve (not bragging...it's the ONLY thing I do well), and going out cold and trying to rifle a 100+ mph serve is tough.

2) Pure Drive GT+ -- my new racket. I served with it for the first time last night. About 50 serves to adjust, then I was knocking holes in the court with my serve. Love it.

3) This was the equivalent of a long drive contest. Is the longest drive mean the best player? No. I've seen 3.5 and under players with great serves and 4.0 players with average serves. Those coming on this board and saying a some player isn't good because they can't serve fast is a bit nearsighted.

No warmup? Yeah, Johnny Carson as a tennis player should have known better. Wasn't fair to build up Tanner's serves as 140 mph and then have him serve, w/ no warmup in his street clothes.

Good point. Many of those guys who make good money playing in long drive contests aren't even very good golfers. Works about the same way with fast serve contests. The guy who will win it will be #900 on the tour or not even on the tour. There's alot more to tennis than a big serve that occasionally goes in.

 

[pmerk34]

No warmup? Yeah, Johnny Carson as a tennis player should have known better. Wasn't fair to build up Tanner's serves as 140 mph and then have him serve, w/ no warmup in his street clothes.

Good point. Many of those guys who make good money playing in long drive contests aren't even very good golfers. Works about the same way with fast serve contests. The guy who will win it will be #900 on the tour or not even on the tour. There's alot more to tennis than a big serve that occasionally goes in.

So what? Huge serves is something that wows us because we can't do it. There is more to basketball than dunks and more to baseball than hr's but the contests are still enjoyable.

 

[Steady Eddy]

So you're telling the ladies and gentlemen of this jury that, as a 2 year old, you watched an episode of Carson just to see Tanner serving?

Better get yourself a lawyer before you say anything further.

I was quite the prodigy back then. I think I peaked at age three.

So what? Huge serves is something that wows us because we can't do it. There is more to basketball than dunks and more to baseball than hr's but the contests are still enjoyable.

I'm not saying that they aren't fun to watch, just that for people trying to get better in both tennis and golf, they should do more than just work on power. The golfers are even more guilty of this IMO, everyone at the driving range is working on driving farther instead of aiming for targets.

 

[Bud]

I was one of the guys serving at the contest and I can speak for everyone that we were all extremely nervous. Prior to the finals in the stadium, we had playoffs to narrow it down to two from each category on the clay courts. I consistently served in the 100s with 110 as my fastest (and in) while the guy competing in the finals with me couldn't break 95. By the way, the two categories were 3.5 and under and 4.0 and above. Both guys in the 4.0 and above category hit 118 in the playoffs to advance to the finals. The tall lengthy guy was at least a 5.0 who played at Radford. The other guy was a 4.5.

Walking out on the court I was cool and calm but also excited. Walking up to the baseline to serve, I was nervous as hell with my heart beating out of my chest. The first guy hit his first two serves way out past the baseline and making his last serve of 88 MPH. Going up next, I figured I could just spin it in and win it. First serve, missed. Next serve, I said to myself "Okay, I have to get this one in." Dumped it into the net. Third serve, I felt the pressure. It was completely silent. I hit it right in the corner at 99 MPH. Honestly I had no idea how I got it in. Being out there, all my technique was thrown out the window.

So yes, maybe we all didn't look too good serving out there, but it's a far different story going out on stadium court in front of thousands of people serving than it is playing a USTA match. Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.

Here's a picture of me on the court serving. You can see Wayne Bryan and Andy Roddick in the background. That is not the actual racquet I use. I currently use the Babolat Pure Storm Ltd GT. Just figured I would get more pop from my serve with the Pure Drive GT+.

We all know it had nothing to do with a 'frothy testosterone bath' :mrgreen:

 

[skiracer55]

I agree...

Is this really how 4.0s serve these days? If so, wow---just wow. Tennis really is in trouble

...and it's not just limited to 4.0s. There's a ton of faulty technique and tactics out there. I was watching some 3.5 mixed doubles league play yesterday, and I saw it all: serves with forehand grips, swinging at volleys, poor court positioning, four players playing like singles players on a doubles court. Yet in each match, one team won, and that was all that apparently mattered.

This isn't limited to NTRP league play, either. I'm appalled at the level of play I see on the courts these days, but I don't think there's an easy fix, or a fix at all. Tennis is a difficult game, after all, and requires a lot of work...maybe even a lifetime to get right...and these days, in the era of Instant America, very few people are willing to go the distance to play well...

 

[pmerk34]

.and it's not just limited to 4.0s. There's a ton of faulty technique and tactics out there

.

We all can't afford professional instruction like you. IF you haven't had it had it your technique wouldn't look very good on camera either.

This isn't limited to NTRP league play, either. I'm appalled at the level of play I see on the courts these days, but I don't think there's an easy fix, or a fix at all. Tennis is a difficult game, after all, and requires a lot of work...maybe even a lifetime to get right...and these days, in the era of Instant America, very few people are willing to go the distance to play well...

It requires a lot of money and professional instruction to get to the highest levels. Which is why so few can or do.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Let's face it: We all stink, and we will always stink.

Case closed.

 

[pmerk34]

Let's face it: We all stink, and we will always stink.

Case closed.

You;d stink a lot less if you went to Tennis academies in Florida for 8 years of your youth. In fact you;d be pretty darn good

 

[Cindysphinx]

^And since we're placing orders at the drive-through window at Fantasy Mart, can I have an extra-large size of six feet tall and razor thin, with a side order of pouty lips?

 

[r2473]

Wow this is completely different from the way the OP portrayed the event.

I have read a few of Cindy's "cute" threads. This pretty much confirms my suspicions as to their general accuracy.

But, I think she is trying to be entertaining rather than accurate. That is my read anyway.

 

[skiracer55]

It helps to have a good coach...

.

We all can't afford professional instruction like you. IF you haven't had it had it your technique wouldn't look very good on camera either.



It requires a lot of money and professional instruction to get to the highest levels. Which is why so few can or do.

...and I've been fortunate enough to have some great ones. But you can learn tennis from a book, which is what I did as a kid, or from a DVD. The knowledge of how to be a good player is out there, if you want to make the effort to use it...

 

[Cindysphinx]

I have read a few of Cindy's "cute" threads. This pretty much confirms my suspicions as to their general accuracy.

But, I think she is trying to be entertaining rather than accurate. That is my read anyway.

I think I was pretty clear in the OP that I likely had details wrong, and I invited corrections.

All things considered, I think my initial account was pretty good -- closer to the mark than I expected. I nailed the first guy's speed, and I was very close on the one woman with the slow serve. I totally missed the mark on Andrew and it took considerable prompting from him for me to remember him, but I was right about the two 4.0 guys missing all six of their serves. I don't think I should lose points for not understanding the rules well, as the master of ceremonies was being very unclear about that.

Score it 4 out of 5 stars, shall we?

 

[sureshs]

I nailed the first guy

Selective quotes are not good

 

[pmerk34]

...and I've been fortunate enough to have some great ones. But you can learn tennis from a book, which is what I did as a kid, or from a DVD. The knowledge of how to be a good player is out there, if you want to make the effort to use it...

I learned from World Tennis magazine as much as I could. That's all well and good. A player from my high school team went to Macci's academy for 4 months. When he came back he had a kick serve ( no one else had one) proper footwork etc etc it was unbelievable. And that was only four months.

I'm basically a self taught 4.0. We practiced a ton in high school in a cold weather state (NY). All the "awesome" high school players I ever saw at the time had instruction all of them. Not one did not.

I still do not have a kick serve with any reliability. Every player in Macci's camp had a kick serve it's one of the first things they taught him.

 

[skiracer55]

Okay, I hear you...

I learned from World Tennis magazine as much as I could. That's all well and good. A player from my high school team went to Macci's academy for 4 months. When he came back he had a kick serve ( no one else had one) proper footwork etc etc it was unbelievable. And that was only four months.

I'm basically a self taught 4.0. We practiced a ton in high school in a cold weather state (NY). All the "awesome" high school players I ever saw at the time had instruction all of them. Not one did not.

I still do not have a kick serve with any reliability. Every player in Macci's camp had a kick serve it's one of the first things they taught him.

...I agree that for most people, self taught will only take you so far. You want help with a kick serve? No problem, I'll tell you what I know. Just FYI, my background is that I'm 61, have been playing tournament tennis since I was 10, stopping playing for a while and got into bike racing, got back into tennis seriously about 5 years ago when I was fortunate enough to have the Head and Assistant Men's coaches at Colorado University, Boulder, and subsequently, the #2 player, as my coaches.

They didn't do it for free, but they put everything they had into working to help me improve my game, which is what happened. I taught skiing for 6 years, and am an Alpine L3 certified PSIA instructor. 20 years ago, I got into Masters Alpine racing, and have had a ton of good coaches in that arena. I am now USSA Coaches Level 1 certified and coach in my Masters training program. I don't yet have any official tennis coaching certification, but I've done a bunch of it, and the players I've coached really like my approach. I'm probably going to get certified and coach, because...well, I like coaching and I really want to help people play better tennis.

Hard to do any wholistic coaching over the net, but I'll give you some concepts on a kick serve that my coach last summer used to jack up my kick serve:

- The ball toss has to end up coming down about on the top of your head. That's because initially you have to hit up at the ball, then snap and bring it down into the court. Think of it as you're trying to throw your hand up above a shower curtain rod, then snap your wrist and hang your wrist on the curtain rod. Most people try to snap out and down. The first move has to be up through the bottom of the ball, then out and down.

- A kick serve isn't a casual, easy stroke. It's a different motion than a flat or slice serve, but you have to really put a lot of oomph into it...legs, torso drive, wrist snap at the end, the whole package. Otherwise, you may not get enough top to keep the ball in the service box (it needs to go deep) or it may kick up softly...and become a helium ball that the opponent can whale on. As Pancho Gonzalez once said, put some heft into the serve, every time. True of kick serves, particularly.

- Until you get the motion and the results you want, don't worry about placing it. Just blast the ball right down the middle of the service box...which, if you aim right at your opponent's right hip, isn't a bad shot, either...

 

[pmerk34]

...I agree that for most people, self taught will only take you so far. You want help with a kick serve? No problem, I'll tell you what I know. Just FYI, my background is that I'm 61, have been playing tournament tennis since I was 10, stopping playing for a while and got into bike racing, got back into tennis seriously about 5 years ago when I was fortunate enough to have the Head and Assistant Men's coaches at Colorado University, Boulder, and subsequently, the #2 player, as my coaches.

They didn't do it for free, but they put everything they had into working to help me improve my game, which is what happened. I taught skiing for 6 years, and am an Alpine L3 certified PSIA instructor. 20 years ago, I got into Masters Alpine racing, and have had a ton of good coaches in that arena. I am now USSA Coaches Level 1 certified and coach in my Masters training program. I don't yet have any official tennis coaching certification, but I've done a bunch of it, and the players I've coached really like my approach. I'm probably going to get certified and coach, because...well, I like coaching and I really want to help people play better tennis.

Hard to do any wholistic coaching over the net, but I'll give you some concepts on a kick serve that my coach last summer used to jack up my kick serve:

- The ball toss has to end up coming down about on the top of your head. That's because initially you have to hit up at the ball, then snap and bring it down into the court. Think of it as you're trying to throw your hand up above a shower curtain rod, then snap your wrist and hang your wrist on the curtain rod. Most people try to snap out and down. The first move has to be up through the bottom of the ball, then out and down.

- A kick serve isn't a casual, easy stroke. It's a different motion than a flat or slice serve, but you have to really put a lot of oomph into it...legs, torso drive, wrist snap at the end, the whole package. Otherwise, you may not get enough top to keep the ball in the service box (it needs to go deep) or it may kick up softly...and become a helium ball that the opponent can whale on. As Pancho Gonzalez once said, put some heft into the serve, every time. True of kick serves, particularly.

- Until you get the motion and the results you want, don't worry about placing it. Just blast the ball right down the middle of the service box...which, if you aim right at your opponent's right hip, isn't a bad shot, either...

I will try this because I keep missing well long.

 

[zapvor]

i shouldve been down there showing andy how to serve

 

[r2473]

Score it 4 out of 5 stars, shall we?

Nonsense. 5 out of 5.

 

[goober]

i shouldve been down there showing andy how to serve

I think he already has someone to serve him drinks and stuff.

 

[zapvor]

I think he already has someone to serve him drinks and stuff.

no dude. show him how to serve. dont get it twisted

 

[skiracer55]

Coolness...

I will try this because I keep missing well long.

...give it a shot, let me know how it goes, and we'll take it from there...

 

[heycal]

I was very close on the one woman... and it took considerable prompting... shall we?

Yeah, no more selective quoting, Suresh!

 

[goober]

Goober,

Will you marry me?

Yeah I agree heycal, selective quotes can leave the wrong impression about people.

 

[Cindysphinx]

^There's nothing selective about that!

 

[buckfastlover]

Now I'm scared of American tennis!!!

What do you guys think on Average a 4.0+ woman would serve at?? I'd love to get mine measured!!

A young fella in our club had his measured and I think got one clocked at 120 (?) but then again most of the time he will actually hit the back wall with the serve, it doesn't bounce!!

 

[rlamb101]

With the current sticks and string on the market, decent form can get you over 105 mph pretty quickly. I hit with a guy whose serve belongs in the 4.5 bracket, but his groundstrokes belong in the 3.5 class.

He is tough to break for the 3.5 players, because he is consistently over 100mph (on both serves). When his serve is on, he is dominating most 3.5 players after only a year of playing tennis.

 

[DeShaun]

Is this really how 4.0s serve these days? If so, wow---just wow. Tennis really is in trouble

I'm a 2.5. The serve is my best stroke. I played recently a few friendly games against a 4.0. His ground strokes were absolutely beautiful. He executed many really impressive shots while we were warming up. We played six games. He struggled to hold. I would like to claim that I pressured his serve but he pressured himself. His own lack of variety and other unfortunate shortcomings did him in. I held three games. He had to dig deep in holding just one. His first serve was blistering, deep and heavy, but it landed in only slightly more than twenty percent of the time. His second serve looked like a fifty mile per hour slice, which landed in, I would say out of generosity, maybe two thirds of the time. He said that he had recently been rated 4.0. He was a nice guy with gorgeous, modern strokes, but he had no serve to speak of on that day.

 

[sureshs]

I'm a 2.5. The serve is my best stroke. I played recently a few friendly games against a 4.0. His ground strokes were absolutely beautiful. He executed many really impressive shots while we were warming up. We played six games. He struggled to hold. I would like to claim that I pressured his serve but he pressured himself. His own lack of variety and other unfortunate shortcomings did him in. I held three games. He had to dig deep in holding just one. His first serve was blistering, deep and heavy, but it landed in only slightly more than twenty percent of the time. His second serve looked like a fifty mile per hour slice, which landed in, I would say out of generosity, maybe two thirds of the time. He said that he had recently been rated 4.0. He was a nice guy with gorgeous, modern strokes, but he had no serve to speak of on that day.

Sounds like a typical club 4.0 male. "Big" serve which does not go in most of the time. Great strokes during warmup which vanish in actual play. Always an excuse (recently bumped up, too cold, back pain, etc). Level of play can vary from 2.5 to 4.0 depending on the situation - no consistency.

 

[MNPlayer]

Sounds like a typical club 4.0 male. "Big" serve which does not go in most of the time. Great strokes during warmup which vanish in actual play. Always an excuse (recently bumped up, too cold, back pain, etc). Level of play can vary from 2.5 to 4.0 depending on the situation - no consistency.

The 4.0s I play against in league and tournaments would never struggle against a 2.5. So I guess it's the difference between "club 4.0" and Usta.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

The 4.0s I play against in league and tournaments would never struggle against a 2.5. So I guess it's the difference between "club 4.0" and Usta.

Yea ... I have never seen a legitimate USTA 4.0 player that would even take off his warm ups to bagel a 2.5 player.

 

[Maui19]

The 4.0s I play against in league and tournaments would never struggle against a 2.5. So I guess it's the difference between "club 4.0" and Usta.

That certainly doesn't sound like the 4.0s at my club. Most hit a high percentage of their 1st serves in (but not necessarily their hard serve). Most also have a variety of shots and strategies to deal with game situations. They would have absolutely no trouble with a 2.5 player.

 

[MNPlayer]

That certainly doesn't sound like the 4.0s at my club. Most hit a high percentage of their 1st serves in (but not necessarily their hard serve). Most also have a variety of shots and strategies to deal with game situations. They would have absolutely no trouble with a 2.5 player.

Well, I agree the degree of "grade inflation" I see in the drills where I play is more like 0.5 - a "4.0" drill is often populated mostly by 3.5ish players. But that really depends on the club and how disciplined the pros are about regulating it.

 

[purple-n-gold]

mine has gone south for the winter as of yesterday

 

[DeShaun]

That certainly doesn't sound like the 4.0s at my club. Most hit a high percentage of their 1st serves in (but not necessarily their hard serve). Most also have a variety of shots and strategies to deal with game situations. They would have absolutely no trouble with a 2.5 player.

I suppose that 4.0 guy who played me in a handful of friendly games could have been trying, arguably more than the situation called for, to show off his best hard serve since all, or most, of his other strokes appeared to be working very well that day. I have little doubt that he would have handed me a bagel if he we had been playing a real match.

 

[michael_1265]

p.s. the difference from 115 and 130 qualitatively seems greater than 15 mph

Just as a point that I haven't seen addressed here, the force of air resistance on a moving tennis ball does not increase proportionally, but in fact approximately squares when the velocity doubles. So comparing a ball moving at 30 mph to a ball moving at 120 mph, four times the velocity, but a much greater increase in force. I understand that air resistance calculations are a bit more complicated than that (if there are some physics folks around, feel free to chime in), but that is the basic idea.

A good example of this effect is that you can reach 110 MPH in a stock Toyota Yaris sporting 115 hp:

But the next hundred take something more like this:

The point is that an increase in service velocity from 115 to 130 is a lot more difficult than it seems.

 

[gameboy]

If a 4.0 cannot bagel a 2.5, even on a very off day, either he is not a 4.0 or 2.5 is not a 2.5. Doesn't matter how good 2.5's serve is.

 

[jdubbs]

The "club 4.0's" vary widely. Now that I'm 4 months in my own comeback tour, I'm beating most of the 4.0's I play, who really should be 3.5's.

The key for me has been to consistently get my groundstrokes in and wait for an unforced error.

My serve gives me trouble. I get it in about 60% in the first set, and then, as I start to tire, it goes down to about 30%, and I double fault all the damn time.

If I fixed my serve, I could probably be a "club" 4.5.

 

[gameboy]

There is no such a thing as "club 4.0s". Either they are USTA rated 4.0's or they are just calling themselves as a 4.0, which is like me saying I am a pro.

Again, no 4.0 would ever lose a game to 2.5.

You are not "beating 4.0's I play" you are beating some random guys with inflated egos.

 

[mtommer]

I was laughing too hard at the 4.0 guys who cannot, no matter how many people are watching and how much is on the line, take something off of their serves.

I can't speak for others but "taking something off my serve" does absolutely nothing for me. The choice is either to hit the ball to the same spot I would have hit the ball if trying to hit it harder (in or not), the only difference being it takes a bit longer to get to that spot, or hitting a dink of a ball in. The problem is never how hard I hit but how I hit in the first place. Heck, sometimes I even hit dink balls long. I find that it's easier to keep a mental image of court spacing in one's mind's eye when hitting groundstrokes as opposed to serves.