Rec Players Don't want to Win (Serve and Return + 1)

FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I love the fat Bobs.
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Once small typo makes this a completely different conversation.

EDIT TO BE RELEVANT: I like 90 minute cross court rallies. I push it to 2 hours, but used to be able to go three. Of course, rallies are no more than 4 balls with lots of shanks, out, and net balls, so a lot of time is spent picking up. I wish there was a dirll that could help practice focus and relaxation for improved consistency. That would be awesome.
 
mcs1970 said:
Rec players span a variety of levels and goals. Even kids who one day might be greats are rec players but their goals and practices are different from fat Bob looking for some fun and exercise while just looking to be decent in the few hours he devotes to tennis

This forum has some very good players who post but it is mostly folks who are looking for a quick fix to their problems given that they are not devoting a lot of time playing tennis. It is another thing we do seem to have a lot of time talking tennis though ;)
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I don’t think quick fixes really exist for the most part. But even an out of shape person who devotes a month out of the year (once or twice a week) with a more focused practice will reap the benefits for the next 11 months.
 
ChaelAZ said:
Once small typo makes this a completely different conversation.

EDIT TO BE RELEVANT: I like 90 minute cross court rallies. I push it to 2 hours, but used to be able to go three. Of course, rallies are no more than 4 balls with lots of shanks, out, and net balls, so a lot of time is spent picking up. I wish there was a dirll that could help practice focus and relaxation for improved consistency. That would be awesome.
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Try this drill hit x number of balls cross court then play out the point. X can be 5 or 10 whatever, then play a point to make it less boring. Also teaches you to be patient in singles.
 
MyFearHand said:
I have a few hitting partners who love hitting crosscourts. Almost everyone else refuses to do anything besides sets. If you ever videotape a set and edit out the dead time you'll realize how few touches you really get on the ball during a set.

I don't think hitting crosscourts is that useful after a certain point. If you can hit 10 deep balls cross in a row, then you can hit 30. Better to stop a set after you hit 10 unless you're looking to get rhythm. A lot of shots in tennis are hit on the run anyways so grinding crosscourts isn't that useful.

Most rallies in tennis at every level are 4 shots or less. So if you really want to win, then you should just be practicing your serve, your return, your serve + 1 and your return + 1. If you have a willing partner then you can serve a bucket and have them either hand feed or basketfeed you the +1. Have a preset target and hit it there. You'll get way more reps than you would during a set and you're rehearsing what you want to do in a match. Then you do the same drill for them.

Sadly I can rarely, if ever, find anyone who is willing to do this.

Another big complaint for players is that they miss short balls. If you and a partner alternate hand feeding each other short balls at all sorts of different locations on the court you will get a bunch more reps in and you will stop missing as many short balls.

I wish people were willing to put this time in and enjoy the process of improvement rather than just wanting to play sets and spending half to more than half their time on court not hitting tennis balls.
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I agree with you that drilling crosscourt has limited utility. But I’m not quite sure why playing sets doesn’t make you… better at winning sets? Aren’t you drilling your serve plus one and return plus one then?
 
travlerajm said:
I agree with you that drilling crosscourt has limited utility. But I’m not quite sure why playing sets doesn’t make you… better at winning sets? Aren’t you drilling your serve plus one and return plus one then?
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You need to play sets too of course and yes sets help you become better at these things. My issue with sets is that there’s too much dead time during them. You get way less reps during the same amount of time.
 
Its great to have people that like to work on serves.

A hitting partner and myself do something similar to what you suggest. We take turns serving for a while. We dont keep score, but we play the points out. There's no set order to hitting to the ad side or deuce side, how long you stay serving to one side or how many faults or hit. We get a TON of reps this way.

The only thing we do is let the returner know if we are hitting a 1st or 2nd serve.

We find this to be a great competitive practice. Its really great to hit 1st serves over and over again, repetitively working on mechanics, while still playing the in serves for points.

It's been great for working on 2nd serves as well, being able to really work on spin and placement, without being restricted by having to have the ball land in.
 
nyta2 said:
none of us are taking action to be a billionaire, because we are wasting our time on ttw, and thinking about how to improve serve&return (rather than thinking about how to be a billionaire).
that said, wrt serve & return, i think we are trying figure out what the right action is, to improve it... :p
i'll still be broke, but maybe have a better return (but still a poor return wrt time spent studying (tennis) vs. billionairing)
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Bruh, speak for yourself

I'm practising being a billionaire by spending all my money on expensive things I don't need
 
MyFearHand said:
Most rallies in tennis at every level are 4 shots or less. So if you really want to win, then you should just be practicing your serve, your return, your serve + 1 and your return + 1. If you have a willing partner then you can serve a bucket and have them either hand feed or basketfeed you the +1. Have a preset target and hit it there. You'll get way more reps than you would during a set and you're rehearsing what you want to do in a match. Then you do the same drill for them.

Sadly I can rarely, if ever, find anyone who is willing to do this.
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Yes, you are clearly an advanced player. Most don't because most are not that advanced.
 
zill said:
Yes, you are clearly an advanced player. Most don't because most are not that advanced.
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The quality of the balls looks different, but I do think lower level players can still benefit from this same kind of practice. Also, I hit with plenty of very strong players and they also refuse to do it.
 
StringSnapper said:
I agree with the premise serve +1 and return +1 are the most important shots.

However, serving a bucket followed by a hand feed doesn't mimmck this that much

Firstly, new fast balls are used in matches
2ndly, you don't get a hand feed in a match

3rdly, where's the return being practiced here?
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1) Doesn't really matter.
2) Again, doesn't matter. Just need to train the ability to recover your balance quickly and redirect shots to the open court. You can do a LOT with hand feeds. You can also have someone at the opposing baseline drop feed balls to you.
3) You have a server stand on the service line with 2 balls, serve the first and drop feed the second. Different drill.

Doing it as serve and returns being played allows you to train your ability to read the return, but hinges on both of you consistently getting serves and returns in (which is unrealistic - 70% first serve success rate and 70% return success rate means you see a +1 less than 50% of the time). Yeah, you can change it to second serves, but then it becomes much more return favored unless you both have very good second serves. Yes. the drill can be done with average second serves, but realistically the result should be a neutral rally more often than not.

travlerajm said:
I agree with you that drilling crosscourt has limited utility. But I’m not quite sure why playing sets doesn’t make you… better at winning sets? Aren’t you drilling your serve plus one and return plus one then?
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Playing sets makes you better at handling what your opponent gives you with the toolset you have on the day. It's live problem solving and adaptation. And again, it's an issue of time efficiency. You can practice with someone trying to hit a winner on every shot and pick up balls every 10-15 seconds, or you can rally cooperatively so you guys can 30-40 balls a minute for half an hour and get a good workout. You can learn to hit overheads exclusively from matches, but if you do cooperative overhead/lob rallies with a partner, then you can hit more overheads in 5-10 minutes as you would've in the past year or more of tennis matches, and you can quickly go from being bad at overheads to making your opponents afraid of lobbing you.

I've seen players improve faster and more drastically with cooperative hitting than by doing the "same old same old" hitting and playing some sets. Match play matters, but so does goal-oriented practice.
 
ChaelAZ said:
I wish there was a dirll that could help practice focus and relaxation for improved consistency. That would be awesome.
Click to expand...
setup a cone target (like the karue & naomi vid)... i find that the focus becomes about hitting the cone (tends to be 3/4 pace, better height, etc...), vs. crushing the ball harder and harder until my partner misses (because the "quality" of my cc ball becomes judged by whether my opponent has trouble with it). my $.02
 
nyta2 said:
setup a cone target (like the karue & naomi vid)... i find that the focus becomes about hitting the cone (tends to be 3/4 pace, better height, etc...), vs. crushing the ball harder and harder until my partner misses (because the "quality" of my cc ball becomes judged by whether my opponent has trouble with it). my $.02
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Another drill in a similar vein is to set up some kind of depth target. Play all balls through the middle, if the ball lands too short you lose the point. Not much point in ripping the ball because you can only hit middle. Better to add air and keep your rhythm so you can consistently hit deep. Hit deep enough times in a row and your opponent will miss short.
 
ChaelAZ said:
I wish there was a dirll that could help practice focus and relaxation for improved consistency. That would be awesome.
Click to expand...
Honestly try a beer or however enough before you completely lose control. We often drink one or two then resume playing and our movements are funny.

I know I cannot tense up at all after a beer.
 
I don’t know if hitting fed balls is better playing sets. Yes, sometimes that’s a good use of time. But I’d rather have the pressure to win on me as I practice. Additionally, I play tennis for fun (no one pays me to wear their logos or play in their tournaments) and hitting fed balls versus competing sounds miserable.
Once a month to stay sharp? Sure no problem.
 
Curtennis said:
I don’t know if hitting fed balls is better playing sets. Yes, sometimes that’s a good use of time. But I’d rather have the pressure to win on me as I practice. Additionally, I play tennis for fun (no one pays me to wear their logos or play in their tournaments) and hitting fed balls versus competing sounds miserable.
Once a month to stay sharp? Sure no problem.
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Well you get way more reps and it’s a controlled environment so you can focus on just a few things at once. I’m not saying ditch set play altogether and even once a month feeding would probably be really beneficial.

I understand your desire to compete. I also don’t get paid to play and I also find competing more fun. But I hate losing a lot more than I hate hitting fed balls. I also really want to beat some players who are currently out of my range.

A lot of people feel the same, they have this one hitting partner they really want to beat. The key isn’t “this one simple trick” that a lot of online coaches peddle. The key is getting in a lot of reps at the thing you’re bad at. And the serve and return are the two most important shots.
 
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MyFearHand said:
I understand your desire to compete. I also don’t get paid to play and I also find competing more fun. But I hate losing a lot more than I hate hitting fed balls. I also really want to beat some players who are currently out of my range.
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You remind me of this one tall dude at my site who told me the same thing. He literally cannot handle losing so he strictly stays with rallying. He told me his lose hating far outweighs his joy of winning. So he doesn't find games worth it. Interestingly he's very patient with rallying. He comes out, rallies for 2 hours or so and leaves.

I also know a friend who strictly hates rallying and only prefers games. He would rush from his car to join a game immediately. Other people asks him to hit a few ball for warm-up or whatever but he always says he doesn't care. Makes no difference.
 
@MyFearHand ,
I practice way more than I play for points just because at 67 playing sets against guys who are 20-40 yrs younger than me gets boring for me. We don't have many seniors I can hit with. I hit with a fit 30 something guy the other day, practicing volleys, just hitting, serves and returns. Then after 2 hrs he challenges me to a 10 pt tiebreaker. He keeps telling me he is a 4.5 heading for 5.0. If you see his forehand and footwork to take short sitters with a forehand kill shot without seeing anything else you might think that. When it was obvious I was going to win the tiebreaker he starting to fume, swatting a couple of balls out of the court. I told him to knock it off as it wasn't helping him. I enjoy hitting a decent ball but don't obsess about it, but I like to practice maybe making nuanced improvements. But as an "old timer" I see big value in having a good serve and a return, and a +1. Occasionally I'll be apart of something akin to a rally, especially some wild-a...d exchanges in doubles, but most points are short - just the way I like it and need them to be.
 
Curtennis said:
I don’t know if hitting fed balls is better playing sets. Yes, sometimes that’s a good use of time. But I’d rather have the pressure to win on me as I practice. Additionally, I play tennis for fun (no one pays me to wear their logos or play in their tournaments) and hitting fed balls versus competing sounds miserable.
Once a month to stay sharp? Sure no problem.
Click to expand...

If you want to maintain the pressure and competitive aspect, put a bet on the results. Say that the first ball must be hit within a certain area, like the ad corner if serving to the deuce side (mark it out with masking tape or something) and do 10 serves/points. If the first serve goes in, the return feeder has to put some air under the ball, but is allowed to play anywhere on the court. If it's a second serve, the feeder is allowed to hit however they like, anywhere they want. If it's a double fault it's counted as +1 missed as they don't even get a +1 if they can't get the serve in. If you feed the ball outside of the court somehow, you redo the serve that's -1 to your own serve score, but you still serve 10 times. This way, everyone gets the chance to get 10 serves in, and as many chances at +1's as the number of serves they make. You can even make it more realistic by having the server call their target, then the feeder can feed from that angle. For example, if you call a wide serve, I would feed you a ball from the doubles alley, or outside of it. If you call the T, I'll feed from the T.

You can make anything competitive and put pressure on anything if you just use a bit of creativity. If you look at human history, people can and will compete over anything.
 
MyFearHand said:
I have a few hitting partners who love hitting crosscourts. Almost everyone else refuses to do anything besides sets. If you ever videotape a set and edit out the dead time you'll realize how few touches you really get on the ball during a set.

I don't think hitting crosscourts is that useful after a certain point. If you can hit 10 deep balls cross in a row, then you can hit 30. Better to stop a set after you hit 10 unless you're looking to get rhythm. A lot of shots in tennis are hit on the run anyways so grinding crosscourts isn't that useful.

Most rallies in tennis at every level are 4 shots or less. So if you really want to win, then you should just be practicing your serve, your return, your serve + 1 and your return + 1. If you have a willing partner then you can serve a bucket and have them either hand feed or basketfeed you the +1. Have a preset target and hit it there. You'll get way more reps than you would during a set and you're rehearsing what you want to do in a match. Then you do the same drill for them.

Sadly I can rarely, if ever, find anyone who is willing to do this.

Another big complaint for players is that they miss short balls. If you and a partner alternate hand feeding each other short balls at all sorts of different locations on the court you will get a bunch more reps in and you will stop missing as many short balls.

I wish people were willing to put this time in and enjoy the process of improvement rather than just wanting to play sets and spending half to more than half their time on court not hitting tennis balls.
Click to expand...
A really good compromise you can try is playing a set where the same person serves every game.

This way, it's still a set, so you might be able to get the set only guys on board, but you can really drill the stuff you want to.

My approach shots, serve, and offensive decision making has gotten so much better just playing serve set after serve set against a friend of mine. It used to be super sloppy, but 100 service games later (in a row, not breaking it up with returning, which is mostly defensive tennis), and it's now much much better.
 
travlerajm said:
Just like pickleball, this seems to be spreading with the older crowd and making it more difficult to find courts for tennis.
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I don’t see anything wrong with rallying and it is tennis just like a match. In many cases, at the rec level it might resemble tennis more than an actual match where many resort to safe dink shots to win games. Plus you don’t have all the petty ego fights associated with the weekend warrior crowd fighting for their irrelevant badges of honor.

Never complain about folks actually using those courts to rally. Pickleball leagues are like pirhanas these days. Any tennis court not properly utilized is being documented and taken to the authorities for conversion to pickleball facilities.
 
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