Reclassing and UTR for college

[Tennis2349]

Most juniors are reclassing to gain an advantage in recruiting. Obviously they will have an extra year of training, maturity, strength, and most importantly they want a certain utr. Usually needing an 11.5 atleast to get attention.

While coaches may say they look at many factors, it seems a basic utr baseline number must be met.

I feel in most cases this won’t help much, and for those who do not reclass there is more urgency so they may work harder and more intense for a short period of time.

But then I notice this about junior UTR’s.


Player a: 13. Plays 30 matches in 4 months. Training, travel, match experience, and does pretty well. He rises from a 7.5 to a 8.4. All is good.

Player b: 13. injured during that time. 0 improvement and became worse. Missed out on training, experience etc. He rises from 7.5 to 8.2. Realistically what did he do to prove that he improved? Accuracy would be he went down to a 7 utr. It really is 1.2 points off.

So for all player an achieved, he only rose an extra .2 over player B. The algorithm is basically putting them at the same spot no matter what.

How much of the UTR algorithm is just how long you are in the system? If a player just has an extra year, without even improving, are they also just rising magically within that algorithm. ? I rarely see juniors ever go down.

Even at the pro level, I don’t think Krygios competed for almost a year, yet had a top ten utr in the world.

I think UTR is great when meeting a stranger and you get a general idea of their ability. A 9 is at a higher level than a 3 and you instantly know it wouldn’t make much sense to play.

But with so much at stake, is there something wrong about having a secret algorithm that defies logic?

It is also not very accurate across sexes, and i also wonder about geographical area.

I notice a few kids at end of junior year who did not reclass having a tough time in recruiting because they are at 10.5. Would that extra year if time bump them up a point if they are still at the same level?

 

[Tennis2349]

I would also say the tough part is simply not finding enough 11.5 utr to play. So if you are a 16 yo 10.5, and you might lose to the occasional 10.1, does it get to the point where moving up is tougher because of a lack of available opponents? Is that when the “time” factor
Kicks in and the utr rises?

 

[gatorbait01]

UTR only counts your last 30 matches and prioritizes the most recent matches. If a player is injured for a while, it's true the UTR algorithm will likely continue to show him improving as his opponents have improved in the meantime. Once the player starts to record matches again only the last 30 will count with the most recent weighted more.

 

[gatorbait01]

Of course, I don't know exactly how the algorithm works. But...If you are not playing, and the opponents that you've beaten continue to improve, it makes sense on some level that the urt will continue to rise.

 

[Tennis2349]

Of course, I don't know exactly how the algorithm works. But...If you are not playing, and the opponents that you've beaten continue to improve, it makes sense on some level that the urt will continue to rise.

I can’t think of anything else comparable in other sports.

If I run the 100 yard dash, and my former competitors improve, do I get a better time? If I play chess and my former competitors read and study does MY elo go up ? Should I be penalized if they do worse?

Again, I am not talking about a .01 fluctuation. Juniors that don’t play for a few months go up close to a full point.

This is more than or the same they would improve if they actually been playing.

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

UTR is a business. Nothing more.

 

[esgee48]

UTR should freeze recalc if no new matches are played. Just show an indicator of Frozen and a date. When new results come in, start recalc as usual. This happens all the time in the real business world.

 

[Tennis2349]

UTR should freeze recalc if no new matches are played. Just show an indicator of Frozen and a date. When new results come in, start recalc as usual. This happens all the time in the real business world.

Exactly.

A. It’s demoralizing for players actually showing that they are improving. You fought hard through 6 tournaments and gained close to a point.

Other players play sparingly or not at alll and the measured improvement is the same because others improved.

B. It calls into question the entire system. If more or less everyone improves, is that the main factor for your point rise? Or the actual work you put in?

 

[gatorbait01]

I agree, making a freeze is a good idea. Maybe after 6 weeks, if no matches are played, a freeze is implemented. UTR could also do a better job of the verification process. It's too easy to be 100% verified. Some players have 30 matches in 3 months. Others, maybe 10 matches over a year and both are 100% verified.

Rereading your op, the scenario you laid out does definitely happen, but I haven't noticed it often, or be a big issue. It would be very unlikely to raise your utr that much without playing. It typically takes about a year to raise your utr a full point, so I could see an injured player continue to rise at that pace without matches.

 

[Tennis2349]

https://flic.kr/p/2qL6tq8

.

This is a kid from under 12’s. The utr’s go up much faster without playing. .9 improvement in 7 months.

 

[Tennis2349]

https://flic.kr/p/2qLbbPS

2 mediocre losses since September.

Raise .66 in 4 months of inactivity.

 

[gatorbait01]

Definitely flaws in the algorithm. The above 2 scenarios to me look like the kids were trending in that direction, especially the top graph. I wouldn't mind seeing a UTR rating at that number for those 2 kids which was maybe 10% verified indicating just a guess. The player should have to play maybe 8 matches over 3 months minimum to have a verified UTR. Otherwise a freeze is a good option.

Now that we're discussing this, I do remember one of my son's peers who was injured and out for a year. His UTR was greatly inflated after the year and came down about a full point once he began playing again.

 

[Tennis2349]

Definitely flaws in the algorithm. The above 2 scenarios to me look like the kids were trending in that direction, especially the top graph. I wouldn't mind seeing a UTR rating at that number for those 2 kids which was maybe 10% verified indicating just a guess. The player should have to play maybe 8 matches over 3 months minimum to have a verified UTR. Otherwise a freeze is a good option.

Now that we're discussing this, I do remember one of my son's peers who was injured and out for a year. His UTR was greatly inflated after the year and came down about a full point once he began playing again.

Yes.

In a way it seems actual results are not that important to your UTR!

Over 9 months a junior may play 60 matches to go up a point. Player B doesn’t have to do anything. Something wrong about this.

Without even playing it goes up… So the question is WITH playing, how much do your results matter over everything else going on in the algorithm?

 

[TennisBro]

UTR is a distraction that should be banned in tennis

UTR is a business. Nothing more.

Academies/schools pay attention to UTR for sponsorships, so the marketing is on.

Tennis players do not deserve to be victimized with biased stats that often just show up alongside players' rankings in regions or worldwide. Evaluating a player does not mean pitting him/her against a few matches of other players but a bit more than that.

 

[andfor]

UTR is a distraction that should be banned in tennis


Academies/schools pay attention to UTR for sponsorships, so the marketing is on.

Tennis players do not deserve to be victimized with biased stats that often just show up alongside players' rankings in regions or worldwide. Evaluating a player does not mean pitting him/her against a few matches of other players but a bit more than that.

Right, way too many kids focus on that versus the process needed to really improve. I heard some kids talking about their UTR's and others UTR's at a college match recently. Would have been more impressed if they were talking about the 12+ UTR's in front of them, what those players were doing well and how those kids were working to improve.

With UTR, the reliability estimation goes down for players who sit out for whatever reason. Coaches know who is playing an who is not. Results speak for themselves regardless of what number is next to a players name.

 

[Tennis2349]

Right, way too many kids focus on that versus the process needed to really improve. I heard some kids talking about their UTR's and others UTR's at a college match recently. Would have been more impressed if they were talking about the 12+ UTR's in front of them, what those players were doing well and how those kids were working to improve.

With UTR, the reliability estimation goes down for players who sit out for whatever reason. Coaches know who is playing a who is not. Results speak for themselves regardless of what number is next to a players name.

Every single player, outside of pros, is talking about UTR. Those 12’s are also. There is a lot riding on that particular number.

Is it accurate between ages? Sexes? Geographical locations? That’s debatable.

The point I noticed is that there is a component in the algorithm that makes juniors rise the longer they are in the system. As I shown above, a player need not play AT ALL and they will go up a full point within a year. Meaning if they DO play an extra year, and don’t actually improve, there is a good chance that UTR will
Improve.

I know a local 16 yo 10.5 that is having a tough time getting recruited. Kid is doing everything possible to improve.

Went to play battle of Boca , and knocked off 2 college kids over 11.5 rather easily. Locally has a tough time finding 12’s to play, and sometimes loses to other kids around a 10 UTR that also might be underrated.

If you like it or not, coaches put an extreme
Importance on that number , especially during recruiting. Would that number rise if given an extra year? Most likely yes. Is it accurate across American geographical locations? Doesn’t seem to be. Is it accurate between South America, the USA, and Europe? Most likely not.

 

[andfor]

UTR for those with many matches is pretty accurate. Like you I say that from observation. Couple suggestions. 1. Get a premium UTR membership dig up the stats and multiple examples and call UTR out to defend their platform. Stay away from anomalies and one offs and maybe you affect change. 2. The HS kid that beat 2 11.5’s that can’t break past 10.5 needs to create a resume and promote his top 5 wins. He could get creative and calculate his own UTR for example, top 5 wins past 12 months = 11.2. Not getting looks, why not get creative with your CV, be your own best promoter, show confidence.

 

[TennisBro]

I know a local 16 yo 10.5 that is having a tough time getting recruited. Kid is doing everything possible to improve.

This age group's the biggest issue for UTR rating. When there's only the UTR to pay attention to and the kid hasn't participated in, Nationals, Junior ITF or Futures yet, little in sense of rankings can be looked at. But if the junior has participated in one or more of those competitions and the UTR rating is a priority to the recruiter, this scout/agent is a jerk.

My son's also 16 and his UTR is at UTR 11 in singles now. His UTR should be higher as his competitors' and peers' UTR's between 11.5 and 12 but my son mostly plays in zones outside NA and EU which is the reason behind his undervalued rating.

Went to play battle of Boca , and knocked off 2 college kids over 11.5 rather easily. Locally has a tough time finding 12’s to play, and sometimes loses to other kids around a 10 UTR that also might be underrated.

This is precisely my point; my now 16 year old son's, when he was 15 and at 10.5 UTR, beaten ATP players in the rankings around 1,000 in the ATP as he's been participating in M15, M25 Futures and has an active ATP account. Your case of that 16-year-old boy is a living example of the flawed UTR ratings too but I suspect this boy is within the NA or EU area where he's predominatly playing. Some US college kids in D1, D2 or D3 tennis groups are way overrated; those players may have come from wealthy families that've paid for their junior development programs where tennis coaches played the UTR system.

If you like it or not, coaches put an extreme
Importance on that number , especially during recruiting. Would that number rise if given an extra year? Most likely yes. Is it accurate across American geographical locations? Doesn’t seem to be. Is it accurate between South America, the USA, and Europe? Most likely not.

Coaches, who work for academies in juniors, know how to play the system to show parents and those recuiters/sponsors their results in UTR. Some of those coaches play the UTR rating like the wealthy politicians play the stock market. The system in US colleges is broken 'cause of the UTR emphasis and money that's corrupt it all. The UTR in between US and EU is comparable atlhough I think Europeans are a wee bit higher. South Americans are seemingly behind in the UTR rating. Being stationed in Asia or Africa is probably the worst. A junior starts winning his matches at the age of, say for instance, 14 and gets placed into the group of UTR 8. By the time the kid reaches his 15th birthday, he's stuck at 9 as he hasn't played higher rated players in the region. Attempting to adjust his rating with some matches in EU or NA only helps a little then. Those kinda juniors get behind and have a higher mountain to climb even when they are great players. This is why I keep saying that the UTR is discriminatory, inaccurate and corrupt for the wealthy as it is a tool to bring in sponsorships for privileged mostly.

Since I wrote negative reviews about UTR and WTN and also criticised Roehampton HQ, I have seen my son getting some of the most difficult draws in junior ITF tournaments recently. Not that the ITF head office has much to do with the UTR but there may also be a connection normal people like us do not see. AI may be taking more of a control of tennis players' effort as well as of the junior ITF draws in tournaments which I have actually been told by the Roehampto HQ's rep before. Perhaps, the digital footprint of our online activities catches up with us too. Yes, I am suggesting conspiracies beyond belief. It's easier to cheat, lie and steal opportunities when regular people are presented with some unbelievable scenarios.

 

[TennisBro]

UTR for those with many matches is pretty accurate. Like you I say that from observation. Couple suggestions. 1. Get a premium UTR membership dig up the stats and multiple examples and call UTR out to defend their platform. Stay away from anomalies and one offs and maybe you affect change. 2. The HS kid that beat 2 11.5’s that can’t break past 10.5 needs to create a resume and promote his top 5 wins. He could get creative and calculate his own UTR for example, top 5 wins past 12 months = 11.2. Not getting looks, why not get creative with your CV, be your own best promoter, show confidence.

That accuracy depends on a few factors out of which one is where you play or who you usually play with. My suggestion would be for a 16 year old that is underrated to pick tournaments with much higher level players. Have the 16-year old underrated UTR player play as many such tournaments in a given time and even if the UTR 10.5 junior wins only 2 out of 10 matches with UTR 11.5/12 player, this young boy's rating will increase substentially (given that he doesn't play any other lowly tournaments/players elsewhere). If you want a CV of UTR substance, this is the way.

 

[LOBALOT]

UTR is a number. It works great in junior competition for comparing 2 players and I know coaches rely on it but as a junior player you can't chase the number. It is stupid to do so. They just have to work as hard as they can and the number will follow.

I saw (and still see when I look) kids who quit matches when losing to lower UTR players trying to manage their UTR.

The interesting thing is once kids get to college the number becomes less useful as a predictor.

 

[TennisBro]

You're cool but your damage control for TTW's even cooler here

 

[Tennis2349]

That accuracy depends on a few factors out of which one is where you play or who you usually play with. My suggestion would be for a 16 year old that is underrated to pick tournaments with much higher level players. Have the 16-year old underrated UTR player play as many such tournaments in a given time and even if the UTR 10.5 junior wins only 2 out of 10 matches with UTR 11.5/12 player, this young boy's rating will increase substentially (given that he doesn't play any other lowly tournaments/players elsewhere). If you want a CV of UTR substance, this is the way.

I would say this is another issue. The info on the UTR is incorrect, and you can ask the chat box or email UTR directly.

If you win a match against someone 2 utr points higher, or do well., IT DOES NOT COUNT AT ALL.

Similarly, if you beat someone 1.5 or 1 UTR point ahead, it is weighted to count far less than beating someone with your exact same UTR.

In a way it is the algorithm saying “this is 100 percent accurate. If the lower rated player beats a higher rated player, it doesn’t count . Or doesn’t count much. The higher rated player must have been sick or something “.

So even if someone travels the nation and gets some very good wins, they don’t really count much towards utr.

 

[Tennis2349]

This age group's the biggest issue for UTR rating. When there's only the UTR to pay attention to and the kid hasn't participated in, Nationals, Junior ITF or Futures yet, little in sense of rankings can be looked at. But if the junior has participated in one or more of those competitions and the UTR rating is a priority to the recruiter, this scout/agent is a jerk.

My son's also 16 and his UTR is at UTR 11 in singles now. His UTR should be higher as his competitors' and peers' UTR's between 11.5 and 12 but my son mostly plays in zones outside NA and EU which is the reason behind his undervalued rating.

This is precisely my point; my now 16 year old son's, when he was 15 and at 10.5 UTR, beaten ATP players in the rankings around 1,000 in the ATP as he's been participating in M15, M25 Futures and has an active ATP account. Your case of that 16-year-old boy is a living example of the flawed UTR ratings too but I suspect this boy is within the NA or EU area where he's predominatly playing. Some US college kids in D1, D2 or D3 tennis groups are way overrated; those players may have come from wealthy families that've paid for their junior development programs where tennis coaches played the UTR system.

Coaches, who work for academies in juniors, know how to play the system to show parents and those recuiters/sponsors their results in UTR. Some of those coaches play the UTR rating like the wealthy politicians play the stock market. The system in US colleges is broken 'cause of the UTR emphasis and money that's corrupt it all. The UTR in between US and EU is comparable atlhough I think Europeans are a wee bit higher. South Americans are seemingly behind in the UTR rating. Being stationed in Asia or Africa is probably the worst. A junior starts winning his matches at the age of, say for instance, 14 and gets placed into the group of UTR 8. By the time the kid reaches his 15th birthday, he's stuck at 9 as he hasn't played higher rated players in the region. Attempting to adjust his rating with some matches in EU or NA only helps a little then. Those kinda juniors get behind and have a higher mountain to climb even when they are great players. This is why I keep saying that the UTR is discriminatory, inaccurate and corrupt for the wealthy as it is a tool to bring in sponsorships for privileged mostly.

Since I wrote negative reviews about UTR and WTN and also criticised Roehampton HQ, I have seen my son getting some of the most difficult draws in junior ITF tournaments recently. Not that the ITF head office has much to do with the UTR but there may also be a connection normal people like us do not see. AI may be taking more of a control of tennis players' effort as well as of the junior ITF draws in tournaments which I have actually been told by the Roehampto HQ's rep before. Perhaps, the digital footprint of our online activities catches up with us too. Yes, I am suggesting conspiracies beyond belief. It's easier to cheat, lie and steal opportunities when regular people are presented with some unbelievable scenarios.

There was a junior from Tennessee that my son beat easily two years ago.

I looked up his utr and to my surprise it was 2 points higher than my sons!

So I looked at his matches…..

1 summer ago, he supposedly played 90 (yes 90) matches in 3 months.

And when you look up his opponents , they were all higher utr players with only 2 weeks of tennis history. Obviously fake generated opponents on his profile. Kids that don’t even exist. I don’t think he manually generated them because all of the kids had some matches. But nobody that is a 9 utr only started playing matches 2 weeks ago. Much less 90 of them who soon afterward quit tennis apparently.

So, this is easy to catch, but nonetheless apparently nobody has noticed.

Which makes me question what other ways the algorithm can be doctored in ways people cannot see.

 

[TennisBro]

Double post-delete

 

[TennisBro]

I would say this is another issue. The info on the UTR is incorrect, and you can ask the chat box or email UTR directly.

If you win a match against someone 2 utr points higher, or do well., IT DOES NOT COUNT AT ALL.

Similarly, if you beat someone 1.5 or 1 UTR point ahead, it is weighted to count far less than beating someone with your exact same UTR.

In a way it is the algorithm saying “this is 100 percent accurate. If the lower rated player beats a higher rated player, it doesn’t count . Or doesn’t count much. The higher rated player must have been sick or something “.

So even if someone travels the nation and gets some very good wins, they don’t really count much towards utr.

At 15 and UTR 10.5 last year my son beat a 1,100 ranked ATP player in M15. Then, he scored another big win but his UTR didn't move more than 0.01 after that. I was p**sed. I wrote about it last year somewhere on TTW too. So, you're right that one or two or three matches against 2 or even three level higher UTR players won't shake the cage but that's why I have mentioned 10 matches and so quite a few tournaments at the same level over longer period of time. Longer means like 10 weeks. Provided that you don't play your usual same level players in your usual same level tournaments and you play those unusual higher level tournaments with much higher level players where you mostly lose, the algorithm may ****f after a couple months. It's like when you are using YouTube and when you adjust your search from rave/techno/progressive house music to 80s disco music for 10 weeks. You'll see that the YouTube will automatically offer you a mix of both types of music later on and phase partially out the rave music after the p.riod of time (although it'll still be there). I mean you need to rattle the cages, even if it hurts much. Though I agree with you that 1-2 matches won't make a dent in your boat, I differ that 10 matches with 2 wins and 8 losses "DOES NOT COUNT AT ALL". So, bleeding on the court of 10 tournaments where you may get a couple of breaks through your wounds may shake the boat which you are on. I am speaking from experiences.

What I am saying is that one needs to switch "islands" where s/he is playing in order to adjust "residence" when it comes to the UTR rating. I have complained about this because junior ITF players at that very young age as mentioned (16) are often "swimming in between those very different islands" when playing the Junior ITF, their Nationals and some of them ATP/WTA tournaments already. Given that many of those tournaments are international and on different continents, the levels of players may also fluctuate greatly. The system puts those players in a situation where they may have to prioritize their rankings vs UTR/WTN ratings which in my opinion is hugely unfair (and greatly unprofessional from the tennis body) for those youngsters out of whom some contemplate applying to US colleges' tennis teams. @Tennis2349 has mentioned a 16-year-old with 10.5 UTR rating who may not play the junior ITF (I assumed), so the suggestion to have him "bleed while climbing a steeper mountain" for a couple months may shake up that hated algorithm.

 

[Tennis2349]

At 15 and UTR 10.5 last year my son beat a 1,100 ranked ATP player in M15. Then, he scored another big win but his UTR didn't move more than 0.01 after that. I was p**sed. I wrote about it last year somewhere on TTW too. So, you're right that one or two or three matches against 2 or even three level higher UTR players won't shake the cage but that's why I have mentioned 10 matches and so quite a few tournaments at the same level over longer period of time. Longer means like 10 weeks. Provided that you don't play your usual same level players in your usual same level tournaments and you play those unusual higher level tournaments with much higher level players where you mostly lose, the algorithm may ****f after a couple months. It's like when you are using YouTube and when you adjust your search from rave/techno/progressive house music to 80s disco music for 10 weeks. You'll see that the YouTube will automatically offer you a mix of both types of music later on and phase partially out the rave music after the p.riod of time (although it'll still be there). I mean you need to rattle the cages, even if it hurts much. Though I agree with you that 1-2 matches won't make a dent in your boat, I differ that 10 matches with 2 wins and 8 losses "DOES NOT COUNT AT ALL". So, bleeding on the court of 10 tournaments where you may get a couple of breaks through your wounds may shake the boat which you are on. I am speaking from experiences.

What I am saying is that one needs to switch "islands" where s/he is playing in order to adjust "residence" when it comes to the UTR rating. I have complained about this because junior ITF players at that very young age as mentioned (16) are often "swimming in between those very different islands" when playing the Junior ITF, their Nationals and some of them ATP/WTA tournaments already. Given that many of those tournaments are international and on different continents, the levels of players may also fluctuate greatly. The system puts those players in a situation where they may have to prioritize their rankings vs UTR/WTN ratings which in my opinion is hugely unfair (and greatly unprofessional from the tennis body) for those youngsters out of whom some contemplate applying to US colleges' tennis teams. @Tennis2349 has mentioned a 16-year-old with 10.5 UTR rating who may not play the junior ITF (I assumed), so the suggestion to have him "bleed while climbing a steeper mountain" for a couple months may shake up that hated algorithm.

I do agree. If you are stuck playing your same or lower utr you aren’t going to rise.

Much easier to get games off higher UTR players then bagel kids your same UTR

Which is why kids often drop out of tournaments instead of playjng certain players.

 

[TennisBro]

If you are stuck playing your same or lower utr you aren’t going to rise.

It may depend how/where you begin your registered tournaments/matches. At 14-15 years of age, juniors have a limited amount of choices. If they are in Asia or Africa most of those young group players' first ever couple registered matches/tournaments in juniors will put them in a range of 7-8 UTR but if they are in EU they'll most likely get into 9-10 UTR. Here's the catch. If the 15-year-old begins, for the first time, in some high level adult tournaments and loses 8 out of 10, he may start as 10-11 UTR rated player. Anyhow, this is what I have noticed and what I believe hurts young tennis players who may be discriminated against for where they are, who they play or for having started their registered tennis tournaments in UTR "set-rated groups". In a nutshell, young players that plan to apply to US colleges to play D1/D2 tennis depend on the UTR rating unfortunately and I believe that sponsors look at it very much too.

 

[TennisBro]

Much easier to get games off higher UTR players then bagel kids your same UTR

Absolutely! But even if the kid wins 15 out of 20 matches in a lower group, he/she will have a long way to the higher UTR group then.

 

[TennisBro]

There was a junior from Tennessee that my son beat easily two years ago.

I looked up his utr and to my surprise it was 2 points higher than my sons!

So I looked at his matches…..

1 summer ago, he supposedly played 90 (yes 90) matches in 3 months.

And when you look up his opponents , they were all higher utr players with only 2 weeks of tennis history. Obviously fake generated opponents on his profile. Kids that don’t even exist. I don’t think he manually generated them because all of the kids had some matches. But nobody that is a 9 utr only started playing matches 2 weeks ago. Much less 90 of them who soon afterward quit tennis apparently.

So, this is easy to catch, but nonetheless apparently nobody has noticed.

Which makes me question what other ways the algorithm can be doctored in ways people cannot see.

I procrastinated replying to this one. Now, I don't know what "profile" you are talking about but I know that the Junior ITF website profiles count win-loss matches from the start to the end of the calendar year. That means that once the new year, in this case 2025, begins junior ITF players accounts with win-loss record start at 0-0. But their rankings and 6 most successfull tournaments, even from the year ago (as long as within a year), are in the players' profiles. I am guessing the player that you are talking about may have had the calendar year rollover cancel the count of his "90 matches" at the start of 2025 which is why you couldn't see it. What website was the player's profile on? Wasn't there an option for "activity" of the player?

 

[Tennis2349]

I procrastinated replying to this one. Now, I don't know what "profile" you are talking about but I know that the Junior ITF website profiles count win-loss matches from the start to the end of the calendar year. That means that once the new year, in this case 2025, begins junior ITF players accounts with win-loss record start at 0-0. But their rankings and 6 most successfull tournaments, even from the year ago (as long as within a year), are in the players' profiles. I am guessing the player that you are talking about may have had the calendar year rollover cancel the count of his "90 matches" at the start of 2025 which is why you couldn't see it. What website was the player's profile on? Wasn't there an option for "activity" of the player?

The players profile was in the UTR website.

It may depend how/where you begin your registered tournaments/matches. At 14-15 years of age, juniors have a limited amount of choices. If they are in Asia or Africa most of those young group players' first ever couple registered matches/tournaments in juniors will put them in a range of 7-8 UTR but if they are in EU they'll most likely get into 9-10 UTR. Here's the catch. If the 15-year-old begins, for the first time, in some high level adult tournaments and loses 8 out of 10, he may start as 10-11 UTR rated player. Anyhow, this is what I have noticed and what I believe hurts young tennis players who may be discriminated against for where they are, who they play or for having started their registered tennis tournaments in UTR "set-rated groups". In a nutshell, young players that plan to apply to US colleges to play D1/D2 tennis depend on the UTR rating unfortunately and I believe that sponsors look at it very much too.

Not sure if I understand. We don’t really have UTR “groups” in the USA.

Kids play USTA tournaments, and around 10 years old start off as a 1 utr and work their way up. Those results are transferred to UTR

We do have utr events, ran by UTR, but those are largely non existent for juniors past a 3 utr.

 

[TennisBro]

Not sure if I understand. We don’t really have UTR “groups” in the USA.

Kids play USTA tournaments, and around 10 years old start off as a 1 utr and work their way up. Those results are transferred to UTR

We do have utr events, ran by UTR, but those are largely non existent for juniors past a 3 utr.

Kids don't have to start at "1 utr" and "work their way up". From 0 to 10, a junior may begin in no time like I have explained to you. My son trained hard with me till he was 14 when he first got his IPIN and signed into Junior ITF tournaments where his results where quickly recorded in ITF rankings, WTN and UTR rating. USTA has its system but American kids have choices just as many other junior tennis players around the world. Starting at the age of 10 with "1 utr" rating is pretty cool, though seems to have consequences then. I wonder whether that "3 utr" carries over into the junior's further career 'cause my son was parallel to UTR 7 or 8 level players at the age of 12 then. I do believe it is important to start off smartly when one's planning the UTR to be the end game. USA colleges are heavily looking for the UTR ratings of its recruits and if one is not at at least 11, sponsorship/scholarship may not be easy.

 

[andfor]

I'd think if a kids UTR is low but sectional and or national ranking is high and that ranking groups him within other UTR's rated higher than his, that coaches would know. For example kid is a 10.5 UTR but is ranked 9th in his section, and those ranked just below him are 11+ that would stand out to recruiters. If my kid was trying to get a scholarship, I'd encourage him to promote that fact.

Sorry to rain on anyone's beef with UTR, but as Bill Parcells famously said "you are what your record says you are". I'm just trying to say that if a players UTR is unfairly or unusually lower compared to his peers, there are others measures such as rankings and direct wins that can support promoting an higher level of play than UTR suggests.

 

[Tennis2349]

I'd think if a kids UTR is low but sectional and or national ranking is high and that ranking groups him within other UTR's rated higher than his, that coaches would know. For example kid is a 10.5 UTR but is ranked 9th in his section, and those ranked just below him are 11+ that would stand out to recruiters. If my kid was trying to get a scholarship, I'd encourage him to promote that fact.

Sorry to rain on anyone's beef with UTR, but as Bill Parcells famously said "you are what your record says you are". I'm just trying to say that if a players UTR is unfairly or unusually lower compared to his peers, there are others measures such as rankings and direct wins that can support promoting an higher level of play than UTR suggests.

Possible. But with lots of competition for a few spots, coaches aren’t dissecting a 10.5 when they can order 12’s overseas. They have cut off points. Again, I don’t know how the utr translates between continents. It seems to be off for ages and genders.

My main gripe was the effect of reclassing, and that advantage.

I can find dozens of cases where a player doesn’t play at all and rises over time. So I am assuming if they are active, and play the same way, they will also rise over time.

It’s not even possible for a junior to stop playing and go down or stay the same.

I think TRN should have a mark on profiles with kids ages. If you re class 1 or 2 times everyone should know.

 

[andfor]

Agree on the reclassification issue. Still not sure how kids can do that and not lose college eligibility. Regardless if I’m understanding that or not, my message is for the player to sell themselves. There’s plenty of kids who get themself on top rosters with 3 or 4 stars or suboptimal UTR’s. Many of us know who they are and are aware of their success. Seen first hand examples at Tennessee, Ohio State and Arkansas within the last 10 years. I’m sure there’s other examples.

Players need to sell themselves is my main point. Waiting on a coach to call based on a number is or star rating is a losing strategy. Get creative, be proactive. Get a scholarship from a school that’s a second or 3rd choice and leverage up. Promote top wins from the last 12 months. Get recommendations from a respected high school or academy coach, etc.

 

[Tennis2349]

Agree on the reclassification issue. Still not sure how kids can do that and not lose college eligibility. Regardless if I’m understanding that or not, my message is for the player to sell themselves. There’s plenty of kids who get themself on top rosters with 3 or 4 stars or suboptimal UTR’s. Many of us know who they are and are aware of their success. Seen first hand examples at Tennessee, Ohio State and Arkansas within the last 10 years. I’m sure there’s other examples.

Players need to sell themselves is my main point. Waiting on a coach to call based on a number is or star rating is a losing strategy. Get creative, be proactive. Get a scholarship from a school that’s a second or 3rd choice and leverage up. Promote top wins from the last 12 months. Get recommendations from a respected high school or academy coach, etc.

They can reclass before high school. So for example, most of the blue chips repeat the 7th or 8th grade once or twice. They homeschool.

So if you are a 3-4 star in the 8th grade, you repeat that grade, and then are a high 5 star or blue chip when compared against 7th graders.

So in Georgia, the number 1 7th grader is a 7 utr. The top 5 8th graders are 9-10 utr. (But 15-16 years old. Not 13-14) So it’s a big difference.

I am not an expert on the college process, just going based on what those going through it are experiencing. When you look at TRN you see where kids go , and 4 stars are almost all d3.

 

[andfor]

Okay, I get it. There was a thread on here a while back about a kid doing that, not sure he even played college. If he did it was not DI.

So if a kid reclasses, and get to his junior year but is 18 or 19 and aged out of the juniors, how can his rating still be a properly showing up as his numbers of junior USTA or ITF matches start dropping off? Does TRN calculate open, UTR and ATP/WTA results for star/blue-chip ratings?

 

[Tennis2349]

A player wouldn’t age out of USTA until his 19th birthday. My son is on track to graduate high school at 17. So he could reclass twice and be 19 when he starts college.

If most colleges pick players after their junior year, that kid still has time to play USTA even after that.

The rules state a player has 6 months after high school graduation. How do foreign players increase utr and enter at 20-23?

 

[Tennis2349]

Okay, I get it. There was a thread on here a while back about a kid doing that, not sure he even played college. If he did it was not DI.

So if a kid reclasses, and get to his junior year but is 18 or 19 and aged out of the juniors, how can his rating still be a properly showing up as his numbers of junior USTA or ITF matches start dropping off? Does TRN calculate open, UTR and ATP/WTA results for star/blue-chip ratings?

I mean TRN is one component.

The other is the player has an extra year or 2 to improve UTR.

Foreign players aren’t awarded stars. They aren’t on the site. So I am assuming even if a player aged out of juniors, they can increase their UTR playing men’s events.

The top 5 players in my state all re classed, and that pretty common in every year. Many more do also, but not following the lower ranked players

 

[Tennis2349]

Kids don't have to start at "1 utr" and "work their way up". From 0 to 10, a junior may begin in no time like I have explained to you. My son trained hard with me till he was 14 when he first got his IPIN and signed into Junior ITF tournaments where his results where quickly recorded in ITF rankings, WTN and UTR rating. USTA has its system but American kids have choices just as many other junior tennis players around the world. Starting at the age of 10 with "1 utr" rating is pretty cool, though seems to have consequences then. I wonder whether that "3 utr" carries over into the junior's further career 'cause my son was parallel to UTR 7 or 8 level players at the age of 12 then. I do believe it is important to start off smartly when one's planning the UTR to be the end game. USA colleges are heavily looking for the UTR ratings of its recruits and if one is not at at least 11, sponsorship/scholarship may not be easy.

Yes. What you describe is vastly different than how American juniors rise through UTR. Which is part of my point. I have no idea which countries are artificially high or low in those regards.

No player can play a yellow ball tournament before 12 years old unless they have green ball points. If the player somehow just starts beating 5 utr’s in their first yellow ball tournament, then they would start there. That’s not very likely to happen.

I don’t know of any top players here that never competed in USTA while young, and jumped straight to ITF and were a 10 utr at 14.

 

[andfor]

Tennis players gaming the system and reclassifying before 9th grade has to be infinitesimal year over year. Even then if it does register more than 1% how many tennis juniors reclassifying get to the 5* plus/11.5+ range?

 

[Tennis2349]

Tennis players gaming the system and reclassifying before 9th grade has to be infinitesimal year over year. Even then if it does register more than 1% how many tennis juniors reclassifying get to the 5* plus/11.5+ range?

You have zero clue as to what you are talking about.

you can go to TRN and notice that only 5 stars and up play d1.

How many 5 stars per grade? 75.

They almost all reclassed. Along with other 3 and 4 stars, although at a lower rate.

Kind of strange I see all my son’s friends doing it, yet you are saying it isn’t happening. Guess you haven’t been around junior tennis for a while.

It’s really simple. If you are a 3 star, let’s say 250 in the country, and you reclass, you will be a 5 star. A full extra year is huge.
You also have a full extra year to improve your utr

 

[andfor]

You have zero clue as to what you are talking about.

you can go to TRN and notice that only 5 stars and up play d1.

How many 5 stars per grade? 75.

They almost all reclassed. Along with other 3 and 4 stars, although at a lower rate.

Kind of strange I see all my son’s friends doing it, yet you are saying it isn’t happening. Guess you haven’t been around junior tennis for a while.

It’s really simple. If you are a 3 star, let’s say 250 in the country, and you reclass, you will be a 5 star. A full extra year is huge.
You also have a full extra year to improve your utr

I know more than you think. I will admit my kids tennis experience finished about 8 years ago, however during that time the "reclassing" thing was very, very rare. So if you say it's widespread that's new to me, thanks for educating me.

Question. Are these kid reclassing 8th grade and before? If they reclass after the 8th grade and take 5 years to graduate HS, don't they lose a year of college eligibility? Thought the rule was starting in 9th grade the student had 4 years to graduate HS or lose a year of eligibility each year thereafter it take to get the diploma.

 

[LeftyMagic]

i dont know the answer - do we need utr? was the system really flawed beforehand?
didnt the best kids just do well, get better rankings etc?

 

[Tennis2349]

I know more than you think. I will admit my kids tennis experience finished about 8 years ago, however during that time the "reclassing" thing was very, very rare. So if you say it's widespread that's new to me, thanks for educating me.

Question. Are these kid reclassing 8th grade and before? If they reclass after the 8th grade and take 5 years to graduate HS, don't they lose a year of college eligibility? Thought the rule was starting in 9th grade the student had 4 years to graduate HS or lose a year of eligibility each year thereafter it take to get the diploma.

Yes. You can reclass as much as you want before the 9th grade. After that the kids almost always homeschool So it doesn’t matter if you are a 16 yr old freshmen.

I didn’t know it existed until 2 years ago myself.

 

[Tennisparent26]

In this same situation with my family. Didn't reclass but many did. Son's a junior with a late birthday and could totally be a 5 star if we would have. We decided not to, as he is more mature and is academically strong so we didn't want him to be bored in school. Also thought if he were to get injured, or decide tennis wasn't for him, we would do an injustice to him. We have to pray that he will make it into a school that he both likes and can hopefully excel at with his tennis. It is a frustrating experience because we know he would have many more opportunities if he did reclass. We have to trust that we did the right thing, however hard it is to know that some good programs will not even look at him based on a star system.

 

[TennisBro]

Son's a junior with a late birthday and could totally be a 5 star if we would have.

That may be a disadvantage for some late bloomers. In junior ITF, where the youngsters are in between 14-18 years old, the late birthday may be pretty hard to accept within the rules. If one was born on 28th of December, he'd only get 3 days to play as 18-year-old in junior ITF. The rules that only 17 and 18 year olds in junior ITF can play an unlimited number of tournamnets only make it worse for these late birthday juniors. Sorry this is a bit off topic here but it may influence some late bloomer junior tennis players' results.

 

[Tennis2349]

In this same situation with my family. Didn't reclass but many did. Son's a junior with a late birthday and could totally be a 5 star if we would have. We decided not to, as he is more mature and is academically strong so we didn't want him to be bored in school. Also thought if he were to get injured, or decide tennis wasn't for him, we would do an injustice to him. We have to pray that he will make it into a school that he both likes and can hopefully excel at with his tennis. It is a frustrating experience because we know he would have many more opportunities if he did reclass. We have to trust that we did the right thing, however hard it is to know that some good programs will not even look at him based on a star system.

To answer Andfor, reclassing/ homeschooling has become much more prevalent after Covid.

It is a huge advantage not only for TRN stars, but players have a full extra year or 2 to practice, get stronger, improve utr, mental maturity.

I do think TRN should list the players ages as a possible deterrent, or just so others know the players are not compared on an equal playing field.

Sure, becoming a blue chip and 5 star is a great achievement, but something is also taken away from that achievement when you are simply 2 years older than the kids you are being judged against. Huge difference between 16 and 14. Atleast 10 kids in my sons class , in my state, have reclassed that I know of.

We decided against reclassing, for the same reasons, but it most likely will prevent the ability to play college tennis at D1 level. Son happens to be far ahead academically, and it would make no sense to hold him back and homeschool for the next 5 years. In which he would also miss other facets of growing up. The pressure would also be enormous to perform, as it is a big decision to lose a year with the hopes you will win more tennis matches. Reclassing would make him a blue chip/ high 5 star overnight.

It seems like the prize has become bigger (cost of college skyrocketed, advantage of being an athlete in college and ensuing job market) , but the rules have not really been adjusted to prevent such shenanigans.

Add to the fact that they are competing for spots against foreign kids who turned professional at 16-17 but just couldn’t make it , it is probably amongst the toughest sport to play in college.

And while people who have went through this 25,15,10 or even 5 years ago can offer some good advice, the process and level needed to play is rapidly changing and increasing.

And unfortunately it is for a sport in which there is no money in it, at all unless you are top 150 in the world. Many people are caught up in the momentary rankings/ UTR/ peer pressure and total changing their children’s lives for the hopes of just being on a college tennis team. Which they might be tired of by the time they are 20 anyway.

 

[andfor]

Appreciate the updates and breakdowns. Still hard to get my mind around so many D1 American tennis freshman being 19/20 yr olds, or a full year or two removed from junior tennis with 4 full years of eligibility. Not saying it's not the case, just mind boggling to me.

 

[Tennis2349]

Appreciate the updates and breakdowns. Still hard to get my mind around so many D1 American tennis freshman being 19/20 yr olds, or a full year or two removed from junior tennis with 4 full years of eligibility. Not saying it's not the case, just mind boggling to me.

Maybe not currently. I am speaking for classes of 2028,2029,2030.

Obviously ncaa doesn’t care about age, as we see with foreign recruitment. So Americans are doing their best to find a spot.

Not sure why it is hard to believe. Millions of dollars are at stake.

Tennis training for many kids for 10 years can be about 300k

Universities are about 80k a year.

Connections made with being a D1 athlete for many are worth a lot of money.

So if you can withhold your child a year or 2, for many it is well worth it.

Tennis parent 26 basically said the same thjng.

 

[andfor]

Maybe not currently. I am speaking for classes of 2028,2029,2030.

Obviously ncaa doesn’t care about age, as we see with foreign recruitment. So Americans are doing their best to find a spot.

Not sure why it is hard to believe. Millions of dollars are at stake.

Tennis training for many kids for 10 years can be about 300k

Universities are about 80k a year.

Connections made with being a D1 athlete for many are worth a lot of money.

So if you can withhold your child a year or 2, for many it is well worth it.

Tennis parent 26 basically said the same thjng.

We'll see if it works in 2028. One little rule change could tank it all.