Reclassing and UTR for college

Back in my day tennis playing kids that got scholarship offers I knew including myself were thrilled to play college tennis regardless of the level and less choosy on the school or D1. I've said it over and over, there's D1 schools that would love to have more Americans, but the coaches at mid majors, small D1's and even some P3 D1's can't hardly get Americans to give them the time of day.
 
andfor said:
Back in my day tennis playing kids that got scholarship offers I knew including myself were thrilled to play college tennis regardless of the level and less choosy on the school or D1. I've said it over and over, there's D1 schools that would love to have more Americans, but the coaches at mid majors, small D1's and even some P3 D1's can't hardly get Americans to give them the time of day.
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This makes no logical sense.

So “back in your day” when college was cheap, Americans were happy to play tennis on scholarship.

Now, they homeschool, reclass, train for 10 years, and just decide to quit tennis because they don’t want to play for a mid major.

They have no offers anywhere, mid major calls them up to offer a full ride, and they say no, they would rather quit tennis.

Not buying this story. There is a shortage of American tennis players ro fill the spots? Yeah. Sure.

A top 40 player in the entire nation Inknow, class of 2025 wasn’t even getting full ride offers.
 
andfor said:
Back in my day tennis playing kids that got scholarship offers I knew including myself were thrilled to play college tennis regardless of the level and less choosy on the school or D1. I've said it over and over, there's D1 schools that would love to have more Americans, but the coaches at mid majors, small D1's and even some P3 D1's can't hardly get Americans to give them the time of day.
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sort of the opposite of what we were saying, american kids are sacrificing more than ever to reach d1 college tennis, playing more often and specializing in tennis younger than ever….theres no shortage, check a utr or usta tournament out from 10-18 yrs old. draws are full.
 
andfor said:
Back in my day tennis playing kids that got scholarship offers I knew including myself were thrilled to play college tennis regardless of the level and less choosy on the school or D1. I've said it over and over, there's D1 schools that would love to have more Americans, but the coaches at mid majors, small D1's and even some P3 D1's can't hardly get Americans to give them the time of day.
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A mid major like Pepperdine has 10 foreigners making up the entire team.

You are saying that American tennis players are saying “no way. I wouldn’t go to Pepperdine in Malibu , California on a tennis scholarship”

That’s really hard to believe.
 
Due to scholarship limitations for men 4.5 to 8 for women, at schools like Pepperdine and other private schools that cost $90K+ men's tennis coaches have to find student that want to go there, and have the means to pay 50% of that cost. Not sure why a private school like Pepperdine is this particular target when it's been argued that public schools and my tax dollars should exclude internationals, etc.

There's a handful of D1 teams that seem to get the best Americans. Leaving the rest of the programs to scramble to keep up. Coaches do what they have to stay competitive. Do some coaches primarily target internationals because they are less picky and can afford the cost, sure, the globe is simply a bigger pool. The problem is compounded against the picky nature of American juniors that seem to have a DI or bust mentality (often to schools where they can't play). There's plenty of space for American kids to play college tennis.

I'm not arguing for or against in my post.

For the poster not buying my story. I played with and against Americans at the NAIA and DII level that chose their schools over DI offers. Had 5 guys on teams I played on that played NAIA. 3 of them transfered to DI programs and were starters. I have a friend that decommitted from a premier gulf coast DI school, went to a top DII program, had a doubles win over Stanford's Palmer/O'Brian, won a DII doubles title and played the NCAA DI doubles draw when the DII singles and doubles champs got WC's into the tournament. Had another friend win the NAIA's and go on to an SEC school and become All-American. NAIA and DII spring seasons are not run the same now as back in the 80's and 90's, I know.
 
andfor said:
Due to scholarship limitations for men 4.5 to 8 for women, at schools like Pepperdine and other private schools that cost $90K+ men's tennis coaches have to find student that want to go there, and have the means to pay 50% of that cost. Not sure why a private school like Pepperdine is this particular target when it's been argued that public schools and my tax dollars should exclude internationals, etc.

There's a handful of D1 teams that seem to get the best Americans. Leaving the rest of the programs to scramble to keep up. Coaches do what they have to stay competitive. Do some coaches primarily target internationals because they are less picky and can afford the cost, sure, the globe is simply a bigger pool. The problem is compounded against the picky nature of American juniors that seem to have a DI or bust mentality (often to schools where they can't play). There's plenty of space for American kids to play college tennis.

I'm not arguing for or against in my post.

For the poster not buying my story. I played with and against Americans at the NAIA and DII level that chose their schools over DI offers. Had 5 guys on teams I played on that played NAIA. 3 of them transfered to DI programs and were starters. I have a friend that decommitted from a premier gulf coast DI school, went to a top DII program, had a doubles win over Stanford's Palmer/O'Brian, won a DII doubles title and played the NCAA DI doubles draw when the DII singles and doubles champs got WC's into the tournament. Had another friend win the NAIA's and go on to an SEC school and become All-American. NAIA and DII spring seasons are not run the same now as back in the 80's and 90's, I kno
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What you are saying is nothing unique to tennis.

The top football recruits choose a few top schools. Same with basketball. Same with tennis.

NCAA football and basketball still thrive. So would tennis

The question is should American tennis players be given priority over foreigners. I would say yes. Other nations even do it in their professional
Leagues. They want to grow the sport, and give their athletes a pathway. Even if those athletes are not as good as all of the players in the entire world.

Again, this is college. It’s not even professional. None of these guys will win Wimbledon.

It would be like watching a South Korean professional soccer game, played by 22 South Americans. Who are a little better than the South Koreans, but not really that good or they would be playing in Europe. That’s just dumb.

And about Pepperdine, American tennis playjng families don’t have 45k to go there, but have 90 k to play d3 tennis??

Ok. Kennesaw state is also 100 percent foreign. What’s that excuse? Americans won’t go there? That school is cheaper.

Ok naia. Gcc is 100 percent foreign.

Ok. Texas tech 7-9 foreign.

Where exactly should American play?
 
@Tennis2349
Hi, replying to several posts so this one is long

1)”Yes, it was far easier when your son played than today. Not much of what you are saying is relevant today…Not sure if all 11- 12 year olds should be hitting the ball 5 hours a day and are mentally up for 25 tournaments a year.”

While the reclass issue is new, tennis parents have always had to decide whether to sacrifice a normal childhood for their athlete or buck the current trend. When my son was a junior, coaches pushed kids to homeschool, to forego playing for their HS team, etc. Son’s coaches took players overseas to play jr iTFs for 3 weeks . My son wanted to go, I said you cant-he kept his UTR above the others anyway. He was the only non home school HP kid at his academy his jr/sr year. We asked if he could train 9 hours/wk instead of 20+. He tried out and they said yes. Tennis is always tough so might as well challenge your kid as a jr to compete as an underdog vs kids who board at top academies, travel with private coaches to tourneys, are several years older, etc. There is always someone with more resources. My son as a college freshman played an intl college sr to clinch the conference and NCAA slot. Once your kid is 16+, have him play adult tourneys. Now if your 12 or 13yo has to play 14 and 15yo, yes he may lose more, but he may catch up-maybe he walks on to a team but makes the lineup 2nd year. I have seen tennis walk on’s earn scholarhips and become regulars in D1 (MM) lineups.

“Plus missing out on growing up and having a normal high school experience. It makes more sense for the truly talented who only play level 1 and 2 tournaments as school will not give you an excused absence ,but most reclassing I see are kids who are good players, but don’t even qualify for higher level tournaments....”

Agree it is ridiculous for players who aren’t 4 stars+ to consider reclassing. My son was a 3 star at 8th grade start-we didn’t even consider college tennis until he was a HS soph-he played tourneys and trained to play for his HS team which was a top team in state. To decide to hold back a 11-13yo for tennis only reason doesn’t make sense. What if your kid gets injured, decides he hates the sport, has reclassed and now is 1-2 years behind the neighbors in school? I am glad my son attended 2 proms and played in 3 HS state tennis finals. When my son 1st played tourneys at 10-12yo, he trained 2hrs 2x/wk. He never trained more than 12hr/wk during school year but he did arrange matchplay outside academy.

“Agree. I think it comes down to this.
A. Parental competitiveness with other parents.
B. Tennis is ultra time consuming. And money consuming. So wanting to see some type of reward for 10 years of hard work and 300k spent.

A is stupid-kids are individuals. You decide what is best for your kid and also your family-how will going to crazy degrees for one kid’s tennis affect the other kids, family vacations, etc? When my son put MM D1 and D2 schools on his TRN list, other parents told me he could do better and I held my tongue (why pay the high OOS tuition with low athletic $$ for a 4 star to play at P5-son jumped to 5 star and almost BC after accepting MM offer early in sr year) B You are right -tennis costs too much and reclassing 1-2 years adds to the bill. You choose what tourneys are played and how many hours of training. My son didn’t play any national out of state until 15 (from FL to GA) and no Nat 1s until 16-greatly reduced travel costs. Local adults tourneys can be cheap and son won some prize $

“To have a realistic shot at playing D1. (Just a chance and actually get playing time) you will need to reclass, homeschool , and maybe you can get a partial scholarship to a school that would never be a top choice. Ok great. Playing tennis for university of Toledo Ohio.”
This may be true now for P4 D1 (esp if House settlement limits roster) but not for MM D1 (many schools cant afford to participate). The chances of Americans making the roster for a MM D1 may have increased as athletic scholarships have been cut. A player could earn an academic scholarship and play MM D1 for a reasonable cost. When my son was a freshman, there were 8 guys on his team-7 on at least partial athletic (4US/3INT) and one walk on. This year 24/25 there is only one intl on a team of 9. Son's team went to NCAAs every year except canceled ’20 and also went in ’24. My son played for two different MMs, earned an MBA, and bought a house within 2 ½ years of last match. You don’t have to play for a P4 to get a decent job-you should work internships while fitting in some summer tourneys. Dont be a tennis P4 snob...friends who played D3 had great tennis experiences. Consider also the military academies-son has friends played for AF and Navy who now are pilots.

“In my situation my son is very bright. I would never hold him back. Can get into a Georgia tech,UGA, with the hope pay very little for tuition , and study whatever you like.”
My recommendation is for your son to play to attend GT-maybe w/o reclass he will improve enough to be recruited, maybe he can walk on, or if not, GT has had nationally ranked club teams. One year GT only had 7 guys on roster. Another recent year, the #6 guy was about a UTR 11.75. Your son could try to play for or walk on to KSU, GA State, GA Southern. You are lucky to live in a state with 2 P4 publics, 3 MM publics, and several D2 publics with tennis-all cheap with Hope. However, so many kids attend KSU and GA State, that it is hard for students to graduate in 4 years unless they have priority registration-don’t know if walk on athletes do. Knew a player who walked on GSU after try out and play some duals. Now GA Southern is the best GA MM due to new HC Andrew Goodwin ( grew up in N Atlanta suburbs)-he has quite the asst coach resume but probably will be long gone to a P4 HC job by the time your son is in college. With GA State and KSU, some years they had top 75 teams-won or shared conf titles. This is a weak year for both. Before the current coach, the bottom of KSU were Georgians who played HS tennis and now mostly internationals. However, some by choice-a GA kid who was a regular at line 4 /5, had Hope but low athletic $$. He quit team to take his classes online in am and make bank teaching at clubs in the afternoon. Later GSU had 50%+ US kids. Another friend who wanted to play at GT but his UTR was 11.5 went to GT, volunteered with the women’s team one year, then joined a frat. He works for META in the Bay now.

“Someone like jcgatennismom has some good advice, but when her son was 13 they didn’t even have UTR. Reclassing wasn’t a thing …So if she did it the same way today, her kid would have zero chance.” Not true. My son probably would play at the same MM but with less athletic $$. If he hadn’t been recruited, he probably would have played club at a GA college. Also he played and beat some P5 college guys during the summers so some MM coach or D2 coach would have given him a chance at least as a walk on. He won an Atlanta prize $ tourney played by collegians before he started college.

Bottom line: Be positive. Sounds like at a minimum your son could GT and play club. maybe being the younger underdog inspires your son to step up. Also maybe the gap year rule will be changed so tennis players can play for 12 months post HS graduation w/o losing eligibility. TRN and USTA if they don’t care about age will risk losing tennis players to pickleball. Our neighborhood now has jr tennis and pball but Atlanta doesn’t have jr p-ball leagues yet. If ALTA adds jr p-ball and HS eventually replace tennis with p-ball, junior tennis will be decimated and left to the elite. My husband and I didn’t play tennis before our son started playing ALTA rec league. If he was 9 now in 2025, we probably would just buy him a p-ball paddle and he never would have try real tennis.

We didnt even think about reclassing my son. If we had, he probably would have played P5 as he had some big wins vs blue chips and collegians his sr year which could have been his jr year. But we have no regrets. We tried to provide as normal a life as possible with him playing 80+ tourney matches a year, plus HS matches, even still doing Boy Scouts through 10th grade. He didnt get burnt out. He still loves tennis but other outdoor activities as well. He still tries to play one Future a year. Where he currently lives is not a tennis hot spot. However a guy his age former ITA top 40 moved to his city so they try to hit a couple x a week. Somehow tennis guys find each other. I am very glad my son took up tennis as a 9yo ALTA U10 C level player-never would have guessed at the time he would ever play college tennis. He has met very interesting people through tennis and some have become his best friends.
 
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https://flic.kr/p/2qTh5nk

This is what I notice for class of 2025.

4 stars (top 200 in the nation) are primarily playing d3.


A. Why are these families doing all of this hard work to become a 4 star, just to “pay to play” expensive d3 tennis? Did they really have this initial goal? Homeschool, reclass, become an 11 utr to play d3? Or the spots they have worked for are being taken by foreigners?

It seems the goals keep shifting down.

1. Well 4 star should be a full ride d1.
2. Well 4 star can play d1 and pay tuition
3. Well 4 star can find a smal out of state d1 or d2.
4. Well my 4 star still likes tennis. So I’ll pay 100k a year for him to play d3.

B. These 4 star kids are high 10 to low 11 UTR. So they are very good players.

C. So we could say that all of these families simply chose d3 for a “better education” or “more playing time” and wanted to spend more
Money on college. etc, All of these d3 schools are about 100k per year. (I think andfor hypothesized Pepperdine couldn’t find Americans to pay 45 k tuition so they needed 10 foreigners)

But it seems to me the reality is that with the ease of importing foreigners, Americans are left with D3 unless you are about top 1- 75 in the entire USA.

So with my posts I am not saying 2 and 3 stars should be playing for Ohio state.

It just seems that even 4 stars cannot make the cut to play d1 anymore.

I am wondering with rampant reclassing (after Covid) and even more foreigners, what the outlook is 5 years from now.
 
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jcgatennismom said:
@Tennis2349
Hi, replying to several posts so this one is long

1)”Yes, it was far easier when your son played than today. Not much of what you are saying is relevant today…Not sure if all 11- 12 year olds should be hitting the ball 5 hours a day and are mentally up for 25 tournaments a year.”

While the reclass issue is new, tennis parents have always had to decide whether to sacrifice a normal childhood for their athlete or buck the current trend. When my son was a junior, coaches pushed kids to homeschool, to forego playing for their HS team, etc. Son’s coaches took players overseas to play jr iTFs for 3 weeks . My son wanted to go, I said you cant-he kept his UTR above the others anyway. He was the only non home school HP kid at his academy his jr/sr year. We asked if he could train 9 hours/wk instead of 20+. He tried out and they said yes. Tennis is always tough so might as well challenge your kid as a jr to compete as an underdog vs kids who board at top academies, travel with private coaches to tourneys, are several years older, etc. There is always someone with more resources. My son as a college freshman played an intl college sr to clinch the conference and NCAA slot. Once your kid is 16+, have him play adult tourneys. Now if your 12 or 13yo has to play 14 and 15yo, yes he may lose more, but he may catch up-maybe he walks on to a team but makes the lineup 2nd year. I have seen tennis walk on’s earn scholarhips and become regulars in D1 (MM) lineups.

“Plus missing out on growing up and having a normal high school experience. It makes more sense for the truly talented who only play level 1 and 2 tournaments as school will not give you an excused absence ,but most reclassing I see are kids who are good players, but don’t even qualify for higher level tournaments....”

Agree it is ridiculous for players who aren’t 4 stars+ to consider reclassing. My son was a 3 star at 8th grade start-we didn’t even consider college tennis until he was a HS soph-he played tourneys and trained to play for his HS team which was a top team in state. To decide to hold back a 11-13yo for tennis only reason doesn’t make sense. What if your kid gets injured, decides he hates the sport, has reclassed and now is 1-2 years behind the neighbors in school? I am glad my son attended 2 proms and played in 3 HS state tennis finals. When my son 1st played tourneys at 10-12yo, he trained 2hrs 2x/wk. He never trained more than 12hr/wk during school year but he did arrange matchplay outside academy.

“Agree. I think it comes down to this.
A. Parental competitiveness with other parents.
B. Tennis is ultra time consuming. And money consuming. So wanting to see some type of reward for 10 years of hard work and 300k spent.

A is stupid-kids are individuals. You decide what is best for your kid and also your family-how will going to crazy degrees for one kid’s tennis affect the other kids, family vacations, etc? When my son put MM D1 and D2 schools on his TRN list, other parents told me he could do better and I held my tongue (why pay the high OOS tuition with low athletic $$ for a 4 star to play at P5-son jumped to 5 star and almost BC after accepting MM offer early in sr year) B You are right -tennis costs too much and reclassing 1-2 years adds to the bill. You choose what tourneys are played and how many hours of training. My son didn’t play any national out of state until 15 (from FL to GA) and no Nat 1s until 16-greatly reduced travel costs. Local adults tourneys can be cheap and son won some prize $

“To have a realistic shot at playing D1. (Just a chance and actually get playing time) you will need to reclass, homeschool , and maybe you can get a partial scholarship to a school that would never be a top choice. Ok great. Playing tennis for university of Toledo Ohio.”
This may be true now for P4 D1 (esp if House settlement limits roster) but not for MM D1 (many schools cant afford to participate). The chances of Americans making the roster for a MM D1 may have increased as athletic scholarships have been cut. A player could earn an academic scholarship and play MM D1 for a reasonable cost. When my son was a freshman, there were 8 guys on his team-7 on at least partial athletic (4US/3INT) and one walk on. This year 24/25 there is only one intl on a team of 9. Son's team went to NCAAs every year except canceled ’20 and also went in ’24. My son played for two different MMs, earned an MBA, and bought a house within 2 ½ years of last match. You don’t have to play for a P4 to get a decent job-you should work internships while fitting in some summer tourneys. Dont be a tennis P4 snob...friends who played D3 had great tennis experiences. Consider also the military academies-son has friends played for AF and Navy who now are pilots.

“In my situation my son is very bright. I would never hold him back. Can get into a Georgia tech,UGA, with the hope pay very little for tuition , and study whatever you like.”
My recommendation is for your son to play to attend GT-maybe w/o reclass he will improve enough to be recruited, maybe he can walk on, or if not, GT has had nationally ranked club teams. One year GT only had 7 guys on roster. Another recent year, the #6 guy was about a UTR 11.75. Your son could try to play for or walk on to KSU, GA State, GA Southern. You are lucky to live in a state with 2 P4 publics, 3 MM publics, and several D2 publics with tennis-all cheap with Hope. However, so many kids attend KSU and GA State, that it is hard for students to graduate in 4 years unless they have priority registration-don’t know if walk on athletes do. Knew a player who walked on GSU after try out and play some duals. Now GA Southern is the best GA MM due to new HC Andrew Goodwin ( grew up in N Atlanta suburbs)-he has quite the asst coach resume but probably will be long gone to a P4 HC job by the time your son is in college. With GA State and KSU, some years they had top 75 teams-won or shared conf titles. This is a weak year for both. Before the current coach, the bottom of KSU were Georgians who played HS tennis and now mostly internationals. However, some by choice-a GA kid who was a regular at line 4 /5, had Hope but low athletic $$. He quit team to take his classes online in am and make bank teaching at clubs in the afternoon. Later GSU had 50%+ US kids. Another friend who wanted to play at GT but his UTR was 11.5 went to GT, volunteered with the women’s team one year, then joined a frat. He works for META in the Bay now.

“Someone like jcgatennismom has some good advice, but when her son was 13 they didn’t even have UTR. Reclassing wasn’t a thing …So if she did it the same way today, her kid would have zero chance.” Not true. My son probably would play at the same MM but with less athletic $$. If he hadn’t been recruited, he probably would have played club at a GA college. Also he played and beat some P5 college guys during the summers so some MM coach or D2 coach would have given him a chance at least as a walk on. He won an Atlanta prize $ tourney played by collegians before he started college.

Bottom line: Be positive. Sounds like at a minimum your son could GT and play club. maybe being the younger underdog inspires your son to step up. Also maybe the gap year rule will be changed so tennis players can play for 12 months post HS graduation w/o losing eligibility. TRN and USTA if they don’t care about age will risk losing tennis players to pickleball. Our neighborhood now has jr tennis and pball but Atlanta doesn’t have jr p-ball leagues yet. If ALTA adds jr p-ball and HS eventually replace tennis with p-ball, junior tennis will be decimated and left to the elite. My husband and I didn’t play tennis before our son started playing ALTA rec league. If he was 9 now in 2025, we probably would just buy him a p-ball paddle and he never would have try real tennis.

We didnt even think about reclassing my son. If we had, he probably would have played P5 as he had some big wins vs blue chips and collegians his sr year which could have been his jr year. But we have no regrets. We tried to provide as normal a life as possible with him playing 80+ tourney matches a year, plus HS matches, even still doing Boy Scouts through 10th grade. He didnt get burnt out. He still loves tennis but other outdoor activities as well. He still tries to play one Future a year. Where he currently lives is not a tennis hot spot. However a guy his age former ITA top 40 moved to his city so they try to hit a couple x a week. Somehow tennis guys find each other. I am very glad my son took up tennis as a 9yo ALTA U10 C level player-never would have guessed at the time he would ever play college tennis. He has met very interesting people through tennis and some have become his best friends.
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There are always exceptions.

What I meant was if your son did not reclass today (assuming he was 13 now), what was his utr at 13? I think you said somewhere at 15 he was about a 9! So as an 8th grader maybe 6-7?

Especially if he started tennis at 9, which is a little late, I don’t see him being much higher at 13 than a 7.

8th graders in my state(top 5) are 9.9 to 10,25 utr). They reclassed 1 or 2 times)

Which would put him quite a bit behind with only a couple years to catch up.
 
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Tennis2349 said:
There are always exceptions.

What I meant was if your son did not reclass today (assuming he was 13 now), what was his utr at 13? I think you said somewhere at 15 he was about a 9! So as an 8th grader maybe 6-7?

Especially if he started tennis at 9, which is a little late, I don’t see him being much higher at 13 than a 7.

8th graders in my state(top 5) are 9.9 to 10,25 utr). They reclassed 1 or 2 times)

Which would put him quite a bit behind with only a couple years to catch up.
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No he was a 10.4 at 15 at end of freshman year. He played one of the 1st jr UTR tourneys at Harvard that summer sponsored by New Balance and selection was by UTR. Yes he was late to start tennis-he didn’t play the lowest level local tourney until he was 10 1/2. He was playing more soccer than tennis at 10 and 11 yo. He would have never started tennis except they had cheap jr leagues out of our neighborhood and he could ride his bike to the courts.
 
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LeftyMagic said:
i touched on this above but maybe its just me - are any of these international kids that much better? (yes a 22 yr freshman will likely dominate my 17 yr old if he gets that far…but age aside)
im re-educating myself on the d1’s outside of giant name state schools, and not many individuals are all that dominant on these teams.
excuse my ignorance im still learning here - do tennis programs get a benefit for recruiting internationally? it just seems to me its a whole lot sexier to say i have three guys from spain, instead of 3 guys from connecticut. but they arent much better.
meanwhile giron, mcdonald and spirrizzi are on tour. only 3 on the top of my mind we can name many more. all went to college all american. how many internationals are going us college to tour? vs americans to college to tour?
my little guy is young but as a former college athlete i want to help him pick the path he’ll have greatest chance for playing time
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There are a lot of countries in the world playing tennis. No particular country is better than the USA at producing top college tennis players, but when you combine all of them, they produce more top college tennis players.

Perhaps Romania and Bulgaria only produce one player every two years that can compare to a top 10 blue chip recruit from within the USA, but then there is Italy, Spain, Germany, Great Britain, France, Czech Republic, and on and on. Add them up.

If you are coaching at a premier contender for a national championship and you want to stay that way, very few recruits below the top 10 interest you. They won't do much for your title dreams. And the number of programs that want to sign 2 of the top 10 every year greatly exceeds 5, so the math doesn't add up to limit yourself to domestic recruits when your competition does not limit themselves.

I would insert a graphic with actual data, but this message forum software will only allow images to be inserted via an internet URL. The image is on my laptop. It shows the number of top 150 recruits (top 150 in UTR rating) from each country. For men, it starts out: USA 60, Spain 9, France 7, Great Britain 7, Germany 5, etc. For women, it starts with USA 64, Germany 7, Russia 6, etc.

In other words, no one comes close to the USA, but the combined totals are: Men: 60 USA, 90 everyone else; women, 64 USA, 86 everyone else.

EDIT: So, no, it is not because it sounds "sexier" to say you have players from overseas.
 
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I really don’t know the answer to this.

If not for the generosity of Americans,(or naivety) what would all of these foreign tennis players do?

They are 18, and clearly not good enough to go pro. Now what? Get a job? What is their driving force? If they are 18 and a 12 utr they are about as close to making a living on the tour as I am.

Is it not kind of strange that the entire tennis world relies on American institutions of higher learning to give their kids an oppurtunity to keep playing tennis?

Are their cultures selfish? No plan after 18 years old?

I know American kids that are training, and at academies, and Reclassing are doing this to play college tennis. It’s our culture. Our colleges have sports. We grow up watching college sports.

What is the goal of all the foreigners? They don’t have college sports. Apparently they don’t want college sports in their nations. So the goal is just to train to use our system in the future?
 
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ClarkC said:
There are a lot of countries in the world playing tennis. No particular country is better than the USA at producing top college tennis players, but when you combine all of them, they produce more top college tennis players.

Perhaps Romania and Bulgaria only produce one player every two years that can compare to a top 10 blue chip recruit from within the USA, but then there is Italy, Spain, Germany, Great Britain, France, Czech Republic, and on and on. Add them up.

If you are coaching at a premier contender for a national championship and you want to stay that way, very few recruits below the top 10 interest you. They won't do much for your title dreams. And the number of programs that want to sign 2 of the top 10 every year greatly exceeds 5, so the math doesn't add up to limit yourself to domestic recruits when your competition does not limit themselves.

I would insert a graphic with actual data, but this message forum software will only allow images to be inserted via an internet URL. The image is on my laptop. It show the number of top 150 recruits (top 150 in UTR rating) from each country. For men, it starts out: USA 60, Spain 9, France 7, Great Britain 7, Germany 5, etc. For women, it starts with USA 64, Germany 7, Russia 6, etc.

In other words, no one comes close to the USA, but the combined totals are: Men: 60 USA, 90 everyone else; women, 64 USA, 86 everyone else.

EDIT: So, no, it is not because it sounds "sexier" to say you have players from overseas.
Click to expand...
Yes. I have been saying this. USA is the best tennis nation on earth.

Just wanted to put this into perspective.

There are 27,000 football players on scholarship. How many 5 star recruits last year? 30.

There are 10,000 basketball players on scholarships. How many 5 stars? 22.

So while the above sports take the best of the best, it’s not only the “elite” that play, and even get scholarships. You wouldn’t have a sport if only 4 and 5 stars played. Most on scholarship are 0 stars. You could field 4 football teams with 4 and 5 stars.

Then come in the tennis snobs.

Only high 4 star Americans and up should even be able to play or you can “pay 95k a year to play d3 somewhere maybe” Foreigners will be rented so everyone is a 5 star.

Jcgatennis mom , you said as an 8th grader your son barely played tennis. Then after freshman year was a 10.4. You said his only inspiration was to make the high school tennis team. So the realistic shot at making his local tennis team is what gave him incentive. Correct? He had a goal. He wasn’t deciding to play for no reason. Right? He wasn’t “the best of the best” at 12.

I am guessing he did not win Wimbledon, but tennis is a love of his and played a huge role in his life. Correct?

What if that local high school team only had 5 star foreigners? Or the high school said “well we won’t have a team because we aren’t the best” He would never have played and nobody would ever know he could become a 13 utr. I don’t know if utr changed over the last decade, but there is only one American junior 18 and under today that achieved this.

So do you feel he is 100 percent unique and the only athlete that could have blossomed with incentive and a realistic opportunity? I am guessing he went up about 4 UTR points in one year. But no other Americans can once they hit college? Just him?

Most high school teams are not filled with elite players top to bottom. So he had a realistic shot and blossomed. I think it is common sense that people gravitate towards where there is perceived oppurtunity.

You don’t see much interest in going into professional fields that advertise “these will be the toughest and lowest paying jobs out there and you have a tiny chance to get them”

So tell me why it makes sense that Kennesaw State is right down the street, Atlanta is a huge tennis city, and every single player on the team is shipped in from Europe or South America to Kennesaw Georgia?

And we think that encourages Americans to play and become better at tennis? For most families it turns to “spend more time studying and taking AP courses”. How many great players could have blossomed but quit?

It’s just like bringing H1b’s over to fill tech jobs. Does that encourage Americans to go into those fields? Or course not. It’s viewed as jobs foreigners do for less money with an endless supply. Are those workers even “better”? Or are the pipelines in place and that just becomes the norm with different forms of corruption on various levels. Then people say “Well Americans just aren’t smart enough or into tech”

Nobody here is the best on earth at their job. Someone could always be found if you scour the earth that is cheaper. Or better. Or will work longer hours. But you probably would not be in favor of that competition when it comes to your own personal life.
 
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Tennis2349 said:
So tell me why it makes sense that Kennesaw State is right down the street, Atlanta is a huge tennis city, and every single player on the team is shipped in from Europe or South America to Kennesaw Georgia?
Click to expand...
im glad this convo keeps growing, im learning a lot so thanks to u all…..this above was what initially puzzled me, being in florida. lots of colleges, endless american kids hitting from dawn to night (i literally hear the balls at all hours echo) and either 0 or only a few making a roster nearby from d1 to d2? just doesnt sit well w me i guess.

i didnt think of playing Club level, but its an interesting point. i guess it become an option

silly question, but if scholarships are limited now: are foreigners getting combo sports/academic scholarships? or are they just paying their way also and taking on student debt? do they even repay this debt if they go back to their origin country?

i guess i need to come to the understanding that these rosters are filling up w internationals bc they are better players?
 
LeftyMagic said:
im glad this convo keeps growing, im learning a lot so thanks to u all…..this above was what initially puzzled me, being in florida. lots of colleges, endless american kids hitting from dawn to night (i literally hear the balls at all hours echo) and either 0 or only a few making a roster nearby from d1 to d2? just doesnt sit well w me i guess.

i didnt think of playing Club level, but its an interesting point. i guess it become an option

silly question, but if scholarships are limited now: are foreigners getting combo sports/academic scholarships? or are they just paying their way also and taking on student debt? do they even repay this debt if they go back to their origin country?

i guess i need to come to the understanding that these rosters are filling up w internationals bc they are better players?
Click to expand...
I think some are better players. While our kids are in high school many are on the pro tour at 16. Taking the top handful from each nation. They can come here at 20 and be freshman already playjng pro for 3-4 years.

Part of me likens it to the job market..

You can graduate a mid level college and be brilliant, but you will not get a job in that field without connections of some sort. Who will get the wall street job? Very intelligent kid from blue collar family that went to Kennesaw? Or average student who went to Columbia and dad works on Wall Street?

What I see are universities that usually have a connection to a certain country. Businesses spring up around the world taking peoples money to get them recruited to NCAA.

People work for businesses here that are also “middlemen” that help foreigners get college scholarships. They also have an “in” with universities. Extra source of income for some foreign coaches that have academies here.

I can think of a few examples just in my local area that do this.
 
For example, is the Indian head of tech at an American company who has hired 20 Indian H1- B workers going to looking for and be reaching out to hire American talent? Most likely no.

If tennis teams already have 100 percent foreigners, it’s doubtful in my opinion, that they will be putting in much effort to land an American.

Kennesaw does not have one American for men or women. Have 3 Slovakians?

Ship in an 8.7 utr woman from South Africa?

A 10.7 man from Australia? Just 2 that I checked.

I would assume they do not want Americans in the program.

I know for a fact Kennesaw has not reached out to the 10.7 junior in high school I know that lives right next to the school.

And was that the true intent of title 9? Spend more money on foreign girls and give them full rides?
 
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Tennis2349 said:
Only high 4 star Americans and up should even be able to play or you can “pay 95k a year to play d3 somewhere maybe” Foreigners will be rented so everyone is a 5 star.

Jcgatennis mom , you said as an 8th grader your son barely played tennis. Then after freshman year was a 10.4. You said his only inspiration was to make the high school tennis team. So the realistic shot at making his local tennis team is what gave him incentive. Correct? He had a goal. He wasn’t deciding to play for no reason. Right? He wasn’t “the best of the best” at 12.
I am guessing he did not win Wimbledon, but tennis is a love of his and played a huge role in his life. Correct?

What if that local high school team only had 5 star foreigners? Or the high school said “well we won’t have a team because we aren’t the best” He would never have played and nobody would ever know he could become a 13 utr. I don’t know if utr changed over the last decade, but there is only one American junior 18 and under today that achieved this.

So do you feel he is 100 percent unique and the only athlete that could have blossomed with incentive and a realistic opportunity? I am guessing he went up about 4 UTR points in one year. But no other Americans can once they hit college? Just him?

Most high school teams are not filled with elite players top to bottom. So he had a realistic shot and blossomed. I think it is common sense that people gravitate towards where there is perceived oppurtunity.

You don’t see much interest in going into professional fields that advertise “these will be the toughest and lowest paying jobs out there and you have a tiny chance to get them”

So tell me why it makes sense that Kennesaw State is right down the street, Atlanta is a huge tennis city, and every single player on the team is shipped in from Europe or South America to Kennesaw Georgia?

And we think that encourages Americans to play and become better at tennis? For most families it turns to “spend more time studying and taking AP courses”. How many great players could have blossomed but quit?
Click to expand...
I said my son at 10 and 11 which is 4th and 5th grade played more soccer than tennis. He played 4 local tennis tourneys the year he was 10-he won 2 of them and then we stopped until he turned 11. I was so clueless about tennis it didnt know he could play up 12s. I think after 6th grade, he dropped the soccer. Of course he was playing a lot more tennis by 8th grade. However, there were 8 guys at his public middle school in the 7th grade that played tennis tourneys, and he was in the bottom 3. However out of those 8, three ended up playing MM D1, two played on D3 teams that won a national title, one played D2 a year b4 transferring to GT to be a just a student, and the other two played club at SEC schools. All of those 8 played HS tennis on 2 different teams. Anyway when your son is bottom 3 of his tennis friend group of 8, you arent thinking college tennis. My son had started tennis probably 2 years later than the better guys. Later on I realized in either the U14s or U16s, that there were 20+ 4 stars in the metro area in his age group. Considering his sister was attending college OOS on somewhat of a scholarship when he turned 12, the U12s and U14s we tried to mainly have him play locally or in Georgia to save $$. It was very competitive to get in a higher southern tourney hosted in GA esp one in metro area. I remember it took him 3-5X to get his 1st Icy Hot level-to get in a Regional level 2 or 4 was impossible at 12. However, the disappointment of being an alternate so many times fueled him to be really prepared for when he did get in those Southern tourneys. Unfortunately USTA Southern would ID talented players at 10 and they would get to go to specially training, etc. Being a late bloomer meant being ignored. He also played up locally U14s at 11, played U18 highest level ALTA rec team at 12 and 13 through the neighborhood, and his team won City Finals. Because we didnt pay for private lessons, he also was ignored at the 1st academy he was sent to outside the neighborhood in 7th grade-he wasnt considered good enough to qualify for the group that got to train 3x/wk. However, in 8th grade, we found an academy with a great coach where on the days he played best, he got to hit in the fall with guys who played in the spring for one of the top HS teams in the state at the time so he often played with guys 2-4 years older. Back in those days, those guys went on to play lower lineup at KSU. My son and coach convinced me to let him homeschool the last semester of 8th grade, and he finally won his 1st mid level U14 Southern tourney and then was able to get in any Southern tourney from then on.

My son was not unique-he was blessed with good coaches from 8th grade on, many strong competitors locally with which he played practice matches outside academy, and a fierce competitive spirit. When he won his 1st tourney at 10, he was down 1-9 in the TB. He won 10 points straight. He hated to lose. I usually brought a book to read while he played matches, because at least in 5th-7th grade, he didnt play well until he was about to lose and that was miserable to watch. The other factors that boosted my son's progression was exposure to older players, foreign coaches, and foreign players from 8th or 9th grade on. I hate all this negative focus on foreign players. See the glass full rather than half empty. If the world is coming to play in US, then play those players as juniors-either pay to hit with foreign collegians, play US Jr ITF, go down to Boca in the summer where almost weekly they have $1K prize money tourneys with global players or play summer tourneys that include US Juniors, collegian and starting pro players both US and international. By the time my son was 16, he had played with collegians from Australia, Europe, South American, and Africa. One of his coaches also coached a Davis Cup team, and when guys would come into the US, they got to hit with the juniors. My son had coaches from South African, Venezuela, Columbia, and Argentina as well as US for reasonable prices. Some of the coaches brought kids from their home countries over and son hit and played tourneys with them. With US parents focused on international players, US juniors may develop an inferiority complex and think they arent good enough-instead provide opportunities for them to play internationals. It wasnt until late in my son's junior year that we switched to a local academy with two former top 50 ATP players, paid 50% more but still negotiated for 9 hours/wk. My son went from 150 USTA to top 50 USTA in less than a year and won more than half his matches vs blue chips.

You are unhappy in that you perceive that US juniors have to spend $300k to have a minimal chance to play D1. Not true. Rather than blow $300K on training/tourneys, set aside what you need for college, and only spend what you have leftover on tennis. If players have great coaches and seek out competitive matchplay and tourneys outside USTA-esp vs adults at 15/16+, the cost can be a fraction of that. We thought we trained our son cheaper than most, but when son went to college he met college players who spent much less than us-only played in region or state, never played Nats but played in states with HS state championships. Believe it or not some MM D1 coaches looked for diamonds in the rough-the top state singles kids in their or neighboring state. That player who maybe played 6 USTA tourneys a year won an ATP point in the first Future he played. He was ranked around 150-175 TRN as a HS senior. Another player from a family of 7 kids, played 1 for his HS team which usually made quarterfinals and played Future Qualis and ITA summer circuit events. He ended up playing 1 for a midmajor. He didnt play USTA tourneys at all in HS. He did arrange matchplay with high level juniors in the metro area.

Have your son play adult tourneys as he gets older! As a 17yo, my son played adult tourneys where the asst coaches from MM teams also played. I think USTA is an expensive and inefficient route to junior development. I used to talk to the head of USTA Southern at the time complaining about how hard USTA made it for kids who attended public school to compete at high level and was ignored. However, I am grateful son had opportunity to play Kalamazoo 3x and play on the USTA southern team in the national team competition they used to have before Kzoo when Southern beat Texas and Florida but came in 2nd to SoCal. I am glad there is a mix of US and internationals in college tennis. If there were only US players and players played in state for the cheapest tuition, players would be playing the same players they played as juniors. I will say many international juniors are more mature and independent than most US juniors. I can see why they are attractive to coaches. I hosted one for 3 weeks once, and he had to figure out transportation to some tourneys on his own-had a lot of initiative and was appreciative of any help received. My son also rode in a van with 2 Spanish coaches, 4 South American players to attend a jr ITF in SC-luckily there was one other American to speak English too as the trip conversation of the rest was all in Spanish. My son only played 3 jr ITFs due to school-2 were local and the one in SC but your son as he gets older should definitely try to play the ATL ITF even if he has to get in Qualis as an alternate. Son played it, had a guy from mainland China as his dubs partner and they beat a future Dookie pair-lots of fun to be exposed to players from other cultures.

One other thing, tennis players good enough to play for the top D3 are not playing full price-had 2 local friends play top D3=they probably paid 1/2 cost at most between financial aid grants and merit.
 
jcgatennismom said:
I said my son at 10 and 11 which is 4th and 5th grade played more soccer than tennis. He played 4 local tennis tourneys the year he was 10-he won 2 of them and then we stopped until he turned 11. I was so clueless about tennis it didnt know he could play up 12s. I think after 6th grade, he dropped the soccer. Of course he was playing a lot more tennis by 8th grade. However, there were 8 guys at his public middle school in the 7th grade that played tennis tourneys, and he was in the bottom 3. However out of those 8, three ended up playing MM D1, two played on D3 teams that won a national title, one played D2 a year b4 transferring to GT to be a just a student, and the other two played club at SEC schools. All of those 8 played HS tennis on 2 different teams. Anyway when your son is bottom 3 of his tennis friend group of 8, you arent thinking college tennis. My son had started tennis probably 2 years later than the better guys. Later on I realized in either the U14s or U16s, that there were 20+ 4 stars in the metro area in his age group. Considering his sister was attending college OOS on somewhat of a scholarship when he turned 12, the U12s and U14s we tried to mainly have him play locally or in Georgia to save $$. It was very competitive to get in a higher southern tourney hosted in GA esp one in metro area. I remember it took him 3-5X to get his 1st Icy Hot level-to get in a Regional level 2 or 4 was impossible at 12. However, the disappointment of being an alternate so many times fueled him to be really prepared for when he did get in those Southern tourneys. Unfortunately USTA Southern would ID talented players at 10 and they would get to go to specially training, etc. Being a late bloomer meant being ignored. He also played up locally U14s at 11, played U18 highest level ALTA rec team at 12 and 13 through the neighborhood, and his team won City Finals. Because we didnt pay for private lessons, he also was ignored at the 1st academy he was sent to outside the neighborhood in 7th grade-he wasnt considered good enough to qualify for the group that got to train 3x/wk. However, in 8th grade, we found an academy with a great coach where on the days he played best, he got to hit in the fall with guys who played in the spring for one of the top HS teams in the state at the time so he often played with guys 2-4 years older. Back in those days, those guys went on to play lower lineup at KSU. My son and coach convinced me to let him homeschool the last semester of 8th grade, and he finally won his 1st mid level U14 Southern tourney and then was able to get in any Southern tourney from then on.

My son was not unique-he was blessed with good coaches from 8th grade on, many strong competitors locally with which he played practice matches outside academy, and a fierce competitive spirit. When he won his 1st tourney at 10, he was down 1-9 in the TB. He won 10 points straight. He hated to lose. I usually brought a book to read while he played matches, because at least in 5th-7th grade, he didnt play well until he was about to lose and that was miserable to watch. The other factors that boosted my son's progression was exposure to older players, foreign coaches, and foreign players from 8th or 9th grade on. I hate all this negative focus on foreign players. See the glass full rather than half empty. If the world is coming to play in US, then play those players as juniors-either pay to hit with foreign collegians, play US Jr ITF, go down to Boca in the summer where almost weekly they have $1K prize money tourneys with global players or play summer tourneys that include US Juniors, collegian and starting pro players both US and international. By the time my son was 16, he had played with collegians from Australia, Europe, South American, and Africa. One of his coaches also coached a Davis Cup team, and when guys would come into the US, they got to hit with the juniors. My son had coaches from South African, Venezuela, Columbia, and Argentina as well as US for reasonable prices. Some of the coaches brought kids from their home countries over and son hit and played tourneys with them. With US parents focused on international players, US juniors may develop an inferiority complex and think they arent good enough-instead provide opportunities for them to play internationals. It wasnt until late in my son's junior year that we switched to a local academy with two former top 50 ATP players, paid 50% more but still negotiated for 9 hours/wk. My son went from 150 USTA to top 50 USTA in less than a year and won more than half his matches vs blue chips.

You are unhappy in that you perceive that US juniors have to spend $300k to have a minimal chance to play D1. Not true. Rather than blow $300K on training/tourneys, set aside what you need for college, and only spend what you have leftover on tennis. If players have great coaches and seek out competitive matchplay and tourneys outside USTA-esp vs adults at 15/16+, the cost can be a fraction of that. We thought we trained our son cheaper than most, but when son went to college he met college players who spent much less than us-only played in region or state, never played Nats but played in states with HS state championships. Believe it or not some MM D1 coaches looked for diamonds in the rough-the top state singles kids in their or neighboring state. That player who maybe played 6 USTA tourneys a year won an ATP point in the first Future he played. He was ranked around 150-175 TRN as a HS senior. Another player from a family of 7 kids, played 1 for his HS team which usually made quarterfinals and played Future Qualis and ITA summer circuit events. He ended up playing 1 for a midmajor. He didnt play USTA tourneys at all in HS. He did arrange matchplay with high level juniors in the metro area.

Have your son play adult tourneys as he gets older! As a 17yo, my son played adult tourneys where the asst coaches from MM teams also played. I think USTA is an expensive and inefficient route to junior development. I used to talk to the head of USTA Southern at the time complaining about how hard USTA made it for kids who attended public school to compete at high level and was ignored. However, I am grateful son had opportunity to play Kalamazoo 3x and play on the USTA southern team in the national team competition they used to have before Kzoo when Southern beat Texas and Florida but came in 2nd to SoCal. I am glad there is a mix of US and internationals in college tennis. If there were only US players and players played in state for the cheapest tuition, players would be playing the same players they played as juniors. I will say many international juniors are more mature and independent than most US juniors. I can see why they are attractive to coaches. I hosted one for 3 weeks once, and he had to figure out transportation to some tourneys on his own-had a lot of initiative and was appreciative of any help received. My son also rode in a van with 2 Spanish coaches, 4 South American players to attend a jr ITF in SC-luckily there was one other American to speak English too as the trip conversation of the rest was all in Spanish. My son only played 3 jr ITFs due to school-2 were local and the one in SC but your son as he gets older should definitely try to play the ATL ITF even if he has to get in Qualis as an alternate. Son played it, had a guy from mainland China as his dubs partner and they beat a future Dookie pair-lots of fun to be exposed to players from other cultures.

One other thing, tennis players good enough to play for the top D3 are not playing full price-had 2 local friends play top D3=they probably paid 1/2 cost at most between financial aid grants and merit.
Click to expand...
I am always skeptical of hearing stories from tennis parents, and I am sure you went through the same. Everyone says their kid barely plays, started years later than they did etc.

You said you son was a 13 utr at 18. Currently there is one kid in the entire USTA 18 and under that is a 13 utr.

So if utr was the same 12 years ago, and your son started late, played high school tennis, and didn’t train that much, didn’t take privates until the 8th/9th grade and was a 10.4 utr after 9th grade , it is truly one in a million.

As for the financial side the top players are doing this ..

A. Homeschool hybrid. 14k per year
B tennis academy. 16k per year
C. Shoes rackets balls strings etc . 2 k
D. 20 tournaments entry fees 2k
E. Hotels for most of them. Let’s say 6k conservatively
F gas travel. 2k
G. Did not even include privates. Or the kids at places like IMG etc. total about 42 k per year before G.

I don’t know how someone would get enough points to play Kalamazoo unless they travelled and played a lot of level 3’s ro get enough points.

As for foreigners, I am looking at a school like Kennesaw that doesn’t have one American? Men or women? The 10.7 sophomore must have been recruited from Australia when he was a 9.5 utr.

So the problem becomes if it turns into an H1B type situation. The people hiring just want H1B for various reasons. Depending on who you ask.

There isn’t an 8 utr girl that would play d1 tennis for Kennesaw? There isn’t a 10 utr male that would play d1 tennis for them? Or the Americans are just overlooked/turned away and not pursued at all?
 
LeftyMagic said:
im glad this convo keeps growing, im learning a lot so thanks to u all…..this above was what initially puzzled me, being in florida. lots of colleges, endless american kids hitting from dawn to night (i literally hear the balls at all hours echo) and either 0 or only a few making a roster nearby from d1 to d2? just doesnt sit well w me i guess.

i didnt think of playing Club level, but its an interesting point. i guess it become an option

silly question, but if scholarships are limited now: are foreigners getting combo sports/academic scholarships? or are they just paying their way also and taking on student debt? do they even repay this debt if they go back to their origin country?

i guess i need to come to the understanding that these rosters are filling up w internationals bc they are better players?
Click to expand...
International players may come from rich, middle class, or lower income families. Many D1 players come from Europe and are taught English starting in elementary schools. Many European countries have tough entrance exams for their in country colleges-for example A levels in UK that are comprehensive tests on subjects based on 1-2years + study vs US exams for a single subject for a semester that only count for 20% of grade. Since college is more subsidized in Europe-it used to be free but now there is usually some cost, players will expect scholarships to play in US. For some US colleges, the scholarships may be mainly athletic. Due to declining enrollment in all but the top schools and state flagships, US colleges seek to attract foreign students-often Asian or Indian-to their STEM programs at full tuition at rates higher than in-state. Because those colleges see foreign students as a profit center, they may offer fewer merit/academic scholarships to foreign athletes and have their scholarships come from athletics while US players may have more of a mix of merit/athletic at a MM school.

Some American parents visualize foreign students who can barely speak English playing on teams-probably not true at D1. That may be more common at D2 or NAIA. There are tests of English proficiency. The European athletes may be better students than Americans. Some US colleges may limit the merit/academics going to foreign students-others may have packages of mixed aid offered to both US and international students. There are many foreign students who have a very limited budget-maybe just $5K-$15K. Unless they are extremely talented, they may end up playing for US jr colleges, NAIA, or D2. The ones playing for D1, esp P4, probably have wealthy families or state sponsored support to play Futures, jr ITFs, etc. Look at Canada-outside of Shap and FAA, the next 8 ranked players over 18 and under 30 all played US college tennis. I doubt foreign students are taking on debt-again they have probably have a mix of scholarship, parent pay, or their country tennis federation is picking up the rest of the tab.
 
Tennis2349 said:
I am always skeptical of hearing stories from tennis parents, and I am sure you went through the same. Everyone says their kid barely plays, started years later than they did etc.

You said you son was a 13 utr at 18. Currently there is one kid in the entire USTA 18 and under that is a 13 utr.

So if utr was the same 12 years ago, and your son started late, played high school tennis, and didn’t train that much, didn’t take privates until the 8th/9th grade and was a 10.4 utr after 9th grade , it is truly one in a million.

As for the financial side the top players are doing this ..

A. Homeschool hybrid. 14k per year
B tennis academy. 16k per year
C. Shoes rackets balls strings etc . 2 k
D. 20 tournaments entry fees 2k
E. Hotels for most of them. Let’s say 6k conservatively
F gas travel. 2k
G. Did not even include privates. Or the kids at places like IMG etc. total about 42 k per year before G.

I don’t know how someone would get enough points to play Kalamazoo unless they travelled and played a lot of level 3’s ro get enough points.

As for foreigners, I am looking at a school like Kennesaw that doesn’t have one American? Men or women? The 10.7 sophomore must have been recruited from Australia when he was a 9.5 utr.

So the problem becomes if it turns into an H1B type situation. The people hiring just want H1B for various reasons. Depending on who you ask.

There isn’t an 8 utr girl that would play d1 tennis for Kennesaw? There isn’t a 10 utr male that would play d1 tennis for them? Or the Americans are just overlooked/turned away and not pursued at all?
Click to expand...
This is close to a decade ago, but my son paid $500-600/mo for training from 7th grade until spring of jr year and then paid $900/mo for training. May have paid more in summer for camps. No school cost. Had Babolat sponsorship in HS so 40% off racquets and 40% off Solinco for strings. He strung his own; we bought a stringer. Travel cost as much as training by 10th grade. A single trip to Kzoo or Nat Clays could cost $1500 between hotels, flights, rental car and food. For other tourneys, we would drive, stay in hotel with mini fridge and microwave, eat Chipotle for lunch, Olive Garden one night, and microwave other dinners from Walmart the other nights. 3-4 of the 20ish USTA tourneys he played a year once in HS were high level Southern tourneys that were local so no travel costs. The level 1 summer Southerns were awful-170 draw and 8 days in hot and humid Mobile if you made it to finals. Now players have more choices to play nationally though I assume some in region tourneys are still required. Until my son's junior year, there was only one Level 3 Notre Dame in summer-then USTA added a bunch of level 3s. Much more pleasant to play a long weekend Nat level 2 or 3 with a 32 draw that the huge Southerns. The last year he had enough points so he didn't have to play Summer Southerns to play Kzoo. During spring HS tennis, he would play matches Fri-Mon at tourney twice a month and then 2 matches out of Tues-Thurs for team for 3 years. He had so much matchplay he didnt need privates. Over 8 years, he had less than a dozen privates. We were lucky parents-our son probably earned $ in scholarships for 5 years in college as much or more than we paid for tennis travel and training. It may have been close to $100K total-definitely not more. That said, I know guys who played MM D1 who were trained by their dads who only spent $5-6K a year for strings, shoes, and to play a handful of USTA and/or adult tourneys in summer. If someone loves tennis, they can find a way to play for whatever budget they have-could be only adults tourneys and circuits in summer, HS tennis and arranged matchplay during year. Also players make the mistake of choosing an academy because another player who attends plays Jr Slams. Guess what-that player is seldom there, and if he is, your player wont be in his group. The best deal is to play where there are good coaches and you are one of the top kids. You may have arranged to play 3 afternoons a week, but then the coach says you can come every day you want for the same price because the other kids who pay for 5 days want to play with you. Too many parents spend too much in the 10-14yo range. You may not need the coach who can teach strategy as well as strokes until 15-16yo. Plus if you get enough matchplay, you start to figure out strategy on your own if you have some innate tennis intuition.

While my son didnt "train" much, he played a lot. Even at 10, he played rec ALTA and rec U12 T2 tennis. He played other tourney players on the ALTA challenge ladder and of course he played HS matches, but in his region, he often played 3 or 4 stars. So he had a lot of hours on court, but probably half of that was at no cost. Also he was a small kid until his jr year-he was 5'5 and 115lbs at 15. He learned to play scrappy and beat taller and bigger guys and then when he gained 50lbs and 9 inches late in HS, he became a top Southern and high level national player. Another tip for talented HS players-look at UTR for players who live nearby. Maybe there is a college grad who just wants to keep up his game. If you are an 11+, maybe even a 10.5, he may hit with you for free. My son charged $60/hr for lessons for guys who wanted to make varsity for a top local HS teams, but he also played with some juniors for free. In the summers after my son's jr/sr, he was invited to hit with a group of guys who played SEC/ACC.

The UTR algorithm changes some so a 13.15 his sr year was comparable to 12.5-12.7 in revised algorithm.
 
jcgatennismom said:
This is close to a decade ago, but my son paid $500-600/mo for training from 7th grade until spring of jr year and then paid $900/mo for training. May have paid more in summer for camps. No school cost. Had Babolat sponsorship in HS so 40% off racquets and 40% off Solinco for strings. He strung his own; we bought a stringer. Travel cost as much as training by 10th grade. A single trip to Kzoo or Nat Clays could cost $1500 between hotels, flights, rental car and food. For other tourneys, we would drive, stay in hotel with mini fridge and microwave, eat Chipotle for lunch, Olive Garden one night, and microwave other dinners from Walmart the other nights. 3-4 of the 20ish USTA tourneys he played a year once in HS were high level Southern tourneys that were local so no travel costs. The level 1 summer Southerns were awful-170 draw and 8 days in hot and humid Mobile if you made it to finals. Now players have more choices to play nationally though I assume some in region tourneys are still required. Until my son's junior year, there was only one Level 3 Notre Dame in summer-then USTA added a bunch of level 3s. Much more pleasant to play a long weekend Nat level 2 or 3 with a 32 draw that the huge Southerns. The last year he had enough points so he didn't have to play Summer Southerns to play Kzoo. During spring HS tennis, he would play matches Fri-Mon at tourney twice a month and then 2 matches out of Tues-Thurs for team for 3 years. He had so much matchplay he didnt need privates. Over 8 years, he had less than a dozen privates. We were lucky parents-our son probably earned $ in scholarships for 5 years in college as much or more than we paid for tennis travel and training. It may have been close to $100K total-definitely not more. That said, I know guys who played MM D1 who were trained by their dads who only spent $5-6K a year for strings, shoes, and to play a handful of USTA and/or adult tourneys in summer. If someone loves tennis, they can find a way to play for whatever budget they have-could be only adults tourneys and circuits in summer, HS tennis and arranged matchplay during year. Also players make the mistake of choosing an academy because another player who attends plays Jr Slams. Guess what-that player is seldom there, and if he is, your player wont be in his group. The best deal is to play where there are good coaches and you are one of the top kids. You may have arranged to play 3 afternoons a week, but then the coach says you can come every day you want for the same price because the other kids who pay for 5 days want to play with you. Too many parents spend too much in the 10-14yo range. You may not need the coach who can teach strategy as well as strokes until 15-16yo. Plus if you get enough matchplay, you start to figure out strategy on your own if you have some innate tennis intuition.

While my son didnt "train" much, he played a lot. Even at 10, he played rec ALTA and rec U12 T2 tennis. He played other tourney players on the ALTA challenge ladder and of course he played HS matches, but in his region, he often played 3 or 4 stars. So he had a lot of hours on court, but probably half of that was at no cost. Also he was a small kid until his jr year-he was 5'5 and 115lbs at 15. He learned to play scrappy and beat taller and bigger guys and then when he gained 50lbs and 9 inches late in HS, he became a top Southern and high level national player. Another tip for talented HS players-look at UTR for players who live nearby. Maybe there is a college grad who just wants to keep up his game. If you are an 11+, maybe even a 10.5, he may hit with you for free. My son charged $60/hr for lessons for guys who wanted to make varsity for a top local HS teams, but he also played with some juniors for free. In the summers after my son's jr/sr, he was invited to hit with a group of guys who played SEC/ACC.

The UTR algorithm changes some so a 13.15 his sr year was comparable to 12.5-12.7 in revised algorithm.
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I think lefty magic made a good point.

Again, I don’t know how much changed from a decade ago, but it seems like a lot.

I am in Atlanta, and there is a lot of tennis. Many academies, home schoolers etc. moratglou academy just opened.

Florida is tennis Mecca. IMG along with probably hundreds of academies.

Then you have Texas, California, and the rest of the United States.

What happens to all of these players?

I look at tennis recruiting network, and maybe 50 American kids play something other than d3

Every single university I look at is 70-100 percent foreign players.

And then might be some kids like yours who don’t even go to an academy or homeschool

Do they just quit? Disappear? It doesn’t seem like they are playing college tennis.

As I am noticing the high level teams are foreign. D2 is foreign. NAIA is foreign. And low level d1 is foreign. What’s left?
 
America has become a prestige-seeking culture. Families are much more conscious of a college's academic reputation today than 50+ years ago. The flagship state university is not necessarily good enough today. My parents both went to Oklahoma University. That's what good students in 1945-1946 from the state of Oklahoma did. It made sense. Now, good students from their Oklahoma high schools probably consult the USN&WR college rankings, and families pass up the chance for an inexpensive education in favor of paying a fortune to have their child go somewhere else.

Why are so many 4-star recruits going to D-III universities? Because a lot of those universities have high academic reputations. Many of those recruits could have spent a small fraction of the money to play tennis on scholarship at the D-II Directional State that is near home, but they decline that "opportunity" while many foreign tennis players jump at the chance because any college spot at all might be hard to come by in their home country.

The bottom line is that people have free will and and are making their own decisions, their own trade offs. Southwestern Missouri State is beneath you, and now you are spending a fortune at a D-III school? That's your choice, so don't whine about it.
 
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ClarkC said:
America has become a prestige-seeking culture. Families are much more conscious of a college's academic reputation today than 50+ years ago. The flagship state university is not necessarily good enough today. My parents both went to Oklahoma University. That's what good students in 1945-1946 from the state of Oklahoma did. It made sense. Now, good students from their Oklahoma high schools probably consult the USN&WR college rankings, and families pass up the chance for an inexpensive education in favor of paying a fortune to have their child go somewhere else.

Why are so many 4-star recruits going to D-III universities? Because a lot of those universities have high academic reputations. Many of those recruits could have spent a small fraction of the money to play tennis on scholarship at the D-II Directional State that is near home, but they decline that "opportunity" while many foreign tennis players jump at the chance because any college spot at all might be hard to come by in their home country.

The bottom line is that people have free will and and making their own decisions, their own trade offs. Southwestern Missouri State is beneath you, and now you are spending a fortune at a D-III school? That's your choice, so don't whine about it.
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RIght. There's plenty of 4 stars on the list going to DI schools, some to DII's, but let's focus on those going to DIII's and then misleadingly claim
Tennis2349 said:
It just seems that even 4 stars cannot make the cut to play d1 anymore.
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I bet most if not all of the 4-star DIII signees turned down numerous D1 offers. Likely to some good schools too.

Getting a tennis scholarship is a high achievement. Fact it only about 2% of U.S. high school athletes receive athletic scholarships to compete at the collegiate level across all sports. This percentage varies slightly by sport, but not much either direction. This includes all NCAA divisions, NAIA, and NJCAA programs. The percentage is even lower for full-ride scholarships, as most athletic scholarships are partial.

This discussion is the same old broken record on this very board for 25+ years. Thousands of posts. We've had so many dedicated and committed posters opposing international athletes here over the years, and not once have I seen a letter to an AD, athletic commissioner, college president, congressman or senator. Heck, I'd give credit to someone sending a tweet to one of the above, or the governing bodies. But nothing, only complaints, defeatist mentality, and elitists scoffs at the possibility at playing at a mid-major or small D1, DII, NAIA or NJCAA where tennis scholarships and playing opportunities abound, the very thing they say doesn't exist.
 
andfor said:
RIght. There's plenty of 4 stars on the list going to DI schools, some to DII's, but let's focus on those going to DIII's and then misleadingly claim

I bet most if not all of the 4-star DIII signees turned down numerous D1 offers. Likely to some good schools too.

Getting a tennis scholarship is a high achievement. Fact it only about 2% of U.S. high school athletes receive athletic scholarships to compete at the collegiate level across all sports. This percentage varies slightly by sport, but not much either direction. This includes all NCAA divisions, NAIA, and NJCAA programs. The percentage is even lower for full-ride scholarships, as most athletic scholarships are partial.

This discussion is the same old broken record on this very board for 25+ years. Thousands of posts. We've had so many dedicated and committed posters opposing international athletes here over the years, and not once have I seen a letter to an AD, athletic commissioner, college president, congressman or senator. Heck, I'd give credit to someone sending a tweet to one of the above, or the governing bodies. But nothing, only complaints, defeatist mentality, and elitists scoffs at the possibility at playing at a mid-major or small D1, DII, NAIA or NJCAA where tennis scholarships and playing opportunities abound, the very thing they say doesn't exist.
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First you said Americans couldn’t afford to pay for half of Pepperdine. Thus they have 10 foreigners.

Now you are agreeing they can afford expensive d3 and choose them.

It’s all speculation

Some say we need H1b because they are brilliant and better.

Others say they are hired because they can be treated like slaves and are paid less. And the Indian heads od departments have a pipeline to hire them.

Like other nations, we should have quotas protecting our own atheletes. Especially when it is merely college athletics.

The idea that American institutions of higher learning are the only place foreigners can play tennis is quite odd in itself.
 
andfor said:
RIght. There's plenty of 4 stars on the list going to DI schools, some to DII's, but let's focus on those going to DIII's and then misleadingly claim

I bet most if not all of the 4-star DIII signees turned down numerous D1 offers. Likely to some good schools too.

Getting a tennis scholarship is a high achievement. Fact it only about 2% of U.S. high school athletes receive athletic scholarships to compete at the collegiate level across all sports. This percentage varies slightly by sport, but not much either direction. This includes all NCAA divisions, NAIA, and NJCAA programs. The percentage is even lower for full-ride scholarships, as most athletic scholarships are partial.

This discussion is the same old broken record on this very board for 25+ years. Thousands of posts. We've had so many dedicated and committed posters opposing international athletes here over the years, and not once have I seen a letter to an AD, athletic commissioner, college president, congressman or senator. Heck, I'd give credit to someone sending a tweet to one of the above, or the governing bodies. But nothing, only complaints, defeatist mentality, and elitists scoffs at the possibility at playing at a mid-major or small D1, DII, NAIA or NJCAA where tennis scholarships and playing opportunities abound, the very thing they say doesn't exist.
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Do you see 4 star football or basketball players playjng d3? Swimmers? Track? Wrestlers?
 
ClarkC said:
America has become a prestige-seeking culture. Families are much more conscious of a college's academic reputation today than 50+ years ago. The flagship state university is not necessarily good enough today. My parents both went to Oklahoma University. That's what good students in 1945-1946 from the state of Oklahoma did. It made sense. Now, good students from their Oklahoma high schools probably consult the USN&WR college rankings, and families pass up the chance for an inexpensive education in favor of paying a fortune to have their child go somewhere else.

Why are so many 4-star recruits going to D-III universities? Because a lot of those universities have high academic reputations. Many of those recruits could have spent a small fraction of the money to play tennis on scholarship at the D-II Directional State that is near home, but they decline that "opportunity" while many foreign tennis players jump at the chance because any college spot at all might be hard to come by in their home country.

The bottom line is that people have free will and and making their own decisions, their own trade offs. Southwestern Missouri State is beneath you, and now you are spending a fortune at a D-III school? That's your choice, so don't whine about it.
Click to expand...
Ahhhh. Ok. So you are saying 4 star players get lots of offers BUT are seeking prestige. So I am assuming the same would be for blue chips and 5 stars? Most would choose d3 over state schools? Let’s see.

Wait a second. Not one blue chip or 5 star is seeking prestige? Hmmm. Why aren’t they playing d3?

Or it could simply be that when the entire world is invited d3 is what is left for even most 4 stars?

I mean if your theory is correct then why hasn’t even one of the top players chosen the prestige of d3??

And when you say “Americans are seeking prestige”, how many 4 star athletes in other sports choose d3 for the “prestige”.

Call it what it is. D3 is pay to play because foreigners took over ncaa tennis.



https://flic.kr/p/2qTTdtb
 
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Never said what you claimed Bob. Quote me. With your attitude there’s now way your kid or if somehow you’re a tennis coach, will get to DI tennis level.
 
ClarkC said:
America has become a prestige-seeking culture. Families are much more conscious of a college's academic reputation today than 50+ years ago. The flagship state university is not necessarily good enough today. My parents both went to Oklahoma University. That's what good students in 1945-1946 from the state of Oklahoma did. It made sense. Now, good students from their Oklahoma high schools probably consult the USN&WR college rankings, and families pass up the chance for an inexpensive education in favor of paying a fortune to have their child go somewhere else.

Why are so many 4-star recruits going to D-III universities? Because a lot of those universities have high academic reputations. Many of those recruits could have spent a small fraction of the money to play tennis on scholarship at the D-II Directional State that is near home, but they decline that "opportunity" while many foreign tennis players jump at the chance because any college spot at all might be hard to come by in their home country.

The bottom line is that people have free will and and making their own decisions, their own trade offs. Southwestern Missouri State is beneath you, and now you are spending a fortune at a D-III school? That's your choice, so don't whine about it.
Click to expand...
Well it must be different for the girls.

These girls have all the options! Atleast one should have rich parents and choose d3 prestige over some state school that anyone can go to. Oh but none of them choose d3 either???


https://flic.kr/p/2qTTtXo
 
I’ll put it this way. I know many tennis families. From very wealthy to just getting by.

NONE of them are on this journey or start this journey with the goal of playing d3 tennis. Especially the amazing kids who are top 200 in the USA. Don’t tell me they are Reclassing and homeschooling to play d3.

Once the writing is on the wall, and there is no other choice , those who didn’t make the cut, but the kid still likes tennis, will pay to play d3.

If that was not the case, you would see blue chips and 5 stars choosing d3. But you don’t.

I would also add, I disagree with all the stereotypes about “Americans”. Don’t forget , that many Americans who have kids involved in tennis are first or second generation “Americans”, and they would love for their kid to play for a Kennesaw state. Many are frugal. Chinese, Indian, South American, Eastern European. I’m not sure which stereotype we are thinking of when we talk about “Americans”

Or when people here keep saying “Americans are worse students”. “Americans are harder to train”. Exactly which type of American are you picturing? The tennis community I know is pretty diverse.

But that school does not have room for 1 American on the men’s or women’s teams. Do you think they are actively recruiting Americans? What for? Do you have proof that they are recruiting Americans?

Or are they simply choosing foreigners because they are allowed to and it is easiest for them?

Or as tennis mom said, perhaps those nations might pay the full college tuition for the players.
 
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andfor said:
RIght. There's plenty of 4 stars on the list going to DI schools, some to DII's, but let's focus on those going to DIII's and then misleadingly claim

I bet most if not all of the 4-star DIII signees turned down numerous D1 offers. Likely to some good schools too.

Getting a tennis scholarship is a high achievement. Fact it only about 2% of U.S. high school athletes receive athletic scholarships to compete at the collegiate level across all sports. This percentage varies slightly by sport, but not much either direction. This includes all NCAA divisions, NAIA, and NJCAA programs. The percentage is even lower for full-ride scholarships, as most athletic scholarships are partial.

This discussion is the same old broken record on this very board for 25+ years. Thousands of posts. We've had so many dedicated and committed posters opposing international athletes here over the years, and not once have I seen a letter to an AD, athletic commissioner, college president, congressman or senator. Heck, I'd give credit to someone sending a tweet to one of the above, or the governing bodies. But nothing, only complaints, defeatist mentality, and elitists scoffs at the possibility at playing at a mid-major or small D1, DII, NAIA or NJCAA where tennis scholarships and playing opportunities abound, the very thing they say doesn't exist.
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speak for yourself guy, ill be in whoever’s office i need to if my kid wants it and cant get a fair shake. i havent been on this message board for 25 years (thank god)…some of us are new to this and the fact is rosters havent always been this internationally dominated - thats the entire point of the discussion. we’re not just opposed to it, we’re trying to understand why its happening and also what are potential options.
things werent the same 10 yrs ago let alone 25 in college tennis, or any any college sport. i should know, i was in the 2% u mention.
pretty sure scholarships arent so readily available in the divisions you mention - again the point of the discussion.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Ahhhh. Ok. So you are saying 4 star players get lots of offers BUT are seeking prestige. So I am assuming the same would be for blue chips and 5 stars? Most would choose d3 over state schools? Let’s see.

Wait a second. Not one blue chip or 5 star is seeking prestige? Hmmm. Why aren’t they playing d3?

Or it could simply be that when the entire world is invited d3 is what is left for even most 4 stars?

I mean if your theory is correct then why hasn’t even one of the top players chosen the prestige of d3??

And when you say “Americans are seeking prestige”, how many 4 star athletes in other sports choose d3 for the “prestige”.

Call it what it is. D3 is pay to play because foreigners took over ncaa tennis.



https://flic.kr/p/2qTTdtb
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you nailed it here. d3 is whats left
 
to echo a point above but go a step further - NO hs athlete dreams of college and aspires to division3. no one. its only until reality sets in that you start to open your eyes to other options bc you simply want to keep playing. you can see it w the womens college commitments. not 1 small school. that is the dream that is the goal. in every sport.
 
LeftyMagic said:
to echo a point above but go a step further - NO hs athlete dreams of college and aspires to division3. no one. its only until reality sets in that you start to open your eyes to other options bc you simply want to keep playing. you can see it w the womens college commitments. not 1 small school. that is the dream that is the goal. in every
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Exactly. There is a lot of gaslighting , excuses, and stereotypes going on. Again, times change. If you played 30 years ago, or if your kid was recruited a decade ago, or even 5 years ago, it is different today and moving in a different direction.

Domestic players are being overlooked.

Again, the local 4 star I know has 2 parents that played college tennis. They are not dumb.

No offers. Little interest. No emails returned. Going into senior year.

You are living in the past if you think 4 stars are getting scholarship offers. They aren’t anymore.

One would think that all of these schools that are 80-100 percent foreigners (big or small schools) would be knocking down his door if they wanted an American. But they aren’t.

The info is out there. Not hard to send him an email.

And then you look at TRN and see more than half of 4 stars are playing d3. Anyone with a bit of common sense knows athletes are not training for 10 years to play d3. Show me 4 star athletes in any sport that are passing d1 to go d3. The simplest and most obvious/ accurate reason is because that’s what is left.

I think what it comes down to is guilt. American coaches know it is dirty to only recruit foreigners and pass on Americans. They know this doesn’t sit well. They are just trying to win and keep their job while also save face. So many lies are spread.

“Americans don’t want to go to smaller schools. Americans are arrogant and driven by prestige. Americans are dumber. Americans are harder to coach.”

Funny, all of these schools have many sports, and fill teams with Americans. Big schools. Small schools. D1 D2. And as usual certain schools attract the top atheletes in all
Sports. Stanford, Michigan, Ohio state. Nothing unique to tennis there either.

It’s becoming a sport in which you must be the top 50 in the best tennis nation on earth to get a spot. And that’s definitely unique to tennis, and it is due to the foreign invasion of tennis which was never meant to be, and is still being overlooked.
 
I agree with the above and I also say again the roster limits and the ruling that is to come out on April 7th is also impacting this. I do not believe these college coaches, especially from the MM and smaller D1 schools, know what the state of their program is going to be with the NIL payouts and roster limits that are being proposed. There is a whole group on instagram who are asking for parents and athletes to speak up. It is called roster_limit_objection. You will see how many other current athletes at universities are being impacted but this potential settlement.

I have also asked this before but who are the governing bodies and who can we bring this up to in order to maybe get some traction? The ITA president is foreign and as many have said, we believe it is in the USTA's best interest to support our American children but will they support this? I don't think we have to say no international players but can there be a % limit on the roster? That will give more 4 stars the opportunity to play.
 
Tennisparent26 said:
I agree with the above and I also say again the roster limits and the ruling that is to come out on April 7th is also impacting this. I do not believe these college coaches, especially from the MM and smaller D1 schools, know what the state of their program is going to be with the NIL payouts and roster limits that are being proposed. There is a whole group on instagram who are asking for parents and athletes to speak up. It is called roster_limit_objection. You will see how many other current athletes at universities are being impacted but this potential settlement.

I have also asked this before but who are the governing bodies and who can we bring this up to in order to maybe get some traction? The ITA president is foreign and as many have said, we believe it is in the USTA's best interest to support our American children but will they support this? I don't think we have to say no international players but can there be a % limit on the roster? That will give more 4 stars the opportunity to play.
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Loading…

assets.usta.com

I found this old document I am guessing written early 2000. The USTA was already answering questions about the foreign invasion. They sneakily included d3 at the time to say only 15 percent of players are foreign. But at that time it was already around 25 percent.


Now that has crept up to 70-80 percent, it’s a far different issue.

Exactly who this should be addressed to I do not know. I will try to look into it myself as well.
 
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Tennis2349 said:

Loading…

assets.usta.com

I found this old document I am guessing written early 2000. The USTA was already answering questions about the foreign invasion. They sneakily included d3 at the time to say only 15 percent of players are foreign. But at that time it was already around 25 percent.


Now that has crept up to 70-80 percent, it’s a far different issue.

Exactly who this should be addressed to I do not know. I will try to look into it myself as well.
Click to expand...
I don't wanna politicize here but I sense the foreign students numbers at D1, D2, D3 US colleges is about to reduce drastically.
 
jcgatennismom said:
This is close to a decade ago, but my son paid $500-600/mo for training from 7th grade until spring of jr year and then paid $900/mo for training. May have paid more in summer for camps. No school cost. Had Babolat sponsorship in HS so 40% off racquets and 40% off Solinco for strings. He strung his own; we bought a stringer. Travel cost as much as training by 10th grade. A single trip to Kzoo or Nat Clays could cost $1500 between hotels, flights, rental car and food. For other tourneys, we would drive, stay in hotel with mini fridge and microwave, eat Chipotle for lunch, Olive Garden one night, and microwave other dinners from Walmart the other nights. 3-4 of the 20ish USTA tourneys he played a year once in HS were high level Southern tourneys that were local so no travel costs. The level 1 summer Southerns were awful-170 draw and 8 days in hot and humid Mobile if you made it to finals. Now players have more choices to play nationally though I assume some in region tourneys are still required. Until my son's junior year, there was only one Level 3 Notre Dame in summer-then USTA added a bunch of level 3s. Much more pleasant to play a long weekend Nat level 2 or 3 with a 32 draw that the huge Southerns. The last year he had enough points so he didn't have to play Summer Southerns to play Kzoo. During spring HS tennis, he would play matches Fri-Mon at tourney twice a month and then 2 matches out of Tues-Thurs for team for 3 years. He had so much matchplay he didnt need privates. Over 8 years, he had less than a dozen privates. We were lucky parents-our son probably earned $ in scholarships for 5 years in college as much or more than we paid for tennis travel and training. It may have been close to $100K total-definitely not more. That said, I know guys who played MM D1 who were trained by their dads who only spent $5-6K a year for strings, shoes, and to play a handful of USTA and/or adult tourneys in summer. If someone loves tennis, they can find a way to play for whatever budget they have-could be only adults tourneys and circuits in summer, HS tennis and arranged matchplay during year. Also players make the mistake of choosing an academy because another player who attends plays Jr Slams. Guess what-that player is seldom there, and if he is, your player wont be in his group. The best deal is to play where there are good coaches and you are one of the top kids. You may have arranged to play 3 afternoons a week, but then the coach says you can come every day you want for the same price because the other kids who pay for 5 days want to play with you. Too many parents spend too much in the 10-14yo range. You may not need the coach who can teach strategy as well as strokes until 15-16yo. Plus if you get enough matchplay, you start to figure out strategy on your own if you have some innate tennis intuition.

While my son didnt "train" much, he played a lot. Even at 10, he played rec ALTA and rec U12 T2 tennis. He played other tourney players on the ALTA challenge ladder and of course he played HS matches, but in his region, he often played 3 or 4 stars. So he had a lot of hours on court, but probably half of that was at no cost. Also he was a small kid until his jr year-he was 5'5 and 115lbs at 15. He learned to play scrappy and beat taller and bigger guys and then when he gained 50lbs and 9 inches late in HS, he became a top Southern and high level national player. Another tip for talented HS players-look at UTR for players who live nearby. Maybe there is a college grad who just wants to keep up his game. If you are an 11+, maybe even a 10.5, he may hit with you for free. My son charged $60/hr for lessons for guys who wanted to make varsity for a top local HS teams, but he also played with some juniors for free. In the summers after my son's jr/sr, he was invited to hit with a group of guys who played SEC/ACC.

The UTR algorithm changes some so a 13.15 his sr year was comparable to 12.5-12.7 in revised algorithm.
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You said : “However, there were 8 guys at his public middle school in the 7th grade that played tennis tourneys, and he was in the bottom 3. However out of those 8, three ended up playing MM D1, two played on D3 teams that won a national title, one played D2 a year b4 transferring to GT to be a just a student, and the other two played club at SEC schools. All of those 8 played high school on 2 different teams.”

Again, this shows how much things changed in a decade. Assuming your info is accurate.

So 6-8 kids from one middle school played college tennis. 3 played d1. From one middle school. There are 588 middle schools in Georgia.

If I go through the entire list of recent commits, 2 players from ALL OF Georgia are playing d1, 1 is playing d2, and 4 are playing d3. The d1 and d2 guys homeschooled.

I asked your sons UTR at 13, and it didn’t exist. Around that age he is not even going to make the high school team.

Then no privates , after freshman year is a 10.4. Which you then somehow equate to a 9.9. It’s all just speculation. Maybe more like an 8.5 today.

Obviously it was much easier back then, and I am guessing the utr scale was much different in its first year of use.

I get it. I know parents always like to make it seem like it was “easier” for their kid than it was. They can play since 5 and dad will look right at you and say he just started at 11.

Similar to Ben Shelton who claims to have not played until 13. But the stories always leave out the fact both parents were tennis pros and dad coached university of Florida men’s tennis So I am doubting the narrative that he didn’t play until 13.

If the advice you’re giving is not the norm TODAY, or even happening once or twice , it isn’t relevant.

Each decade changes and has become more and more difficult. Sometimes a shift occurs between 2-3 years. I am sure we can find guys on here that played d1 a decade before your son that played 3 other sports throughout high school.

If you are advising parents that their kid can play d1 just by trying hard and playing high school tennis with a few privates while batting the ball around with friends a lot, it’s misleading. Yes. Maybe 10-20 years ago. Not today.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Ahhhh. Ok. So you are saying 4 star players get lots of offers BUT are seeking prestige. So I am assuming the same would be for blue chips and 5 stars? Most would choose d3 over state schools? Let’s see.

Wait a second. Not one blue chip or 5 star is seeking prestige? Hmmm. Why aren’t they playing d3?
Click to expand...
Good grief. Plenty of blue chip and 5 star recruits are seeking prestige, but they can do it by signing with Ivy League schools. The Ivies are increasingly signing blue chip recruits, although in many cases they are toward the bottom of the blue chip list. Those players understand that they are not likely to play pro tennis, so they parlay their junior tennis success into gaining admission to an Ivy League school. About 2-3 years ago, 10 of the 25 girls blue chips signed with the Ivy League, more than any other conference. They didn't have to look at good D-III academic institutions as a result. Get a clue.
 
Yes, 4 star recruits are getting offers. In my part of the country, they are getting offers from Elon and Wofford and Davidson and schools like that. I know 4-star recruits who played high school tennis with my sons who went to those schools. Pretty good academic schools, too. Maybe if internationals were limited, they could have gone to a Power-5 school like Virginia Tech or Louisville, but I doubt those would have been better educations.
 
ClarkC said:
Yes, 4 star recruits are getting offers. In my part of the country, they are getting offers from Elon and Wofford and Davidson and schools like that. I know 4-star recruits who played high school tennis with my sons who went to those schools. Pretty good academic schools, too. Maybe if internationals were limited, they could have gone to a Power-5 school like Virginia Tech or Louisville, but I doubt those would have been better educations.
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Again, it’s “when my son played high school tennis”

When was that???

Point is those with choices ARE NOT choosing d3 and passing on D1 offers. Those who are seeking a “better education” lol, are the ones that didn’t make it and are stuck at d3. So it is spun as a positive.

If they care about “education” first and foremost, they wouldn’t be homeschooling, reclassing, and spending 20 hours a week playjng tennis. Or some variation of the above.
They might be spending that time with extra studying. And wouldn’t be wasting time playjng d3 tennis if studying and internships are the most valuable.

Again, no 4 stars are rising through the ranks and training for 10 years because the goal was always D3.

I see d3 players that sign that are 6 utr. Maybe that guy had the goal of d3 when he just started playjng tennis at 16.
 
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ClarkC said:
Yes, 4 star recruits are getting offers. In my part of the country, they are getting offers from Elon and Wofford and Davidson and schools like that. I know 4-star recruits who played high school tennis with my sons who went to those schools. Pretty good academic schools, too. Maybe if internationals were limited, they could have gone to a Power-5 school like Virginia Tech or Louisville, but I doubt those would have been better educations.
Click to expand...
Again, point Is that in all other sports, 4 stars are exceptional.

College football had 27,000 players on a scholarship.

Annually,
30 are 5 star
About 380 are 4 star.

Only in tennis does it also mean you are “exceptional” but not good enough for d1. Or maybe some can make a low level d1, and the rest are d3.

That’s due to the foreign invasion.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Again, it’s “when my son played high school tennis”

When was that???

Point is those with choices ARE NOT choosing d3 and passing on D1 offers. Those who are seeking a “better education” lol, are the ones that didn’t make it and are stuck at d3. So it is spun as a positive.

If they care about “education” first and foremost, they wouldn’t be homeschooling, reclassing, and spending 20 hours a week playjng tennis. Or some variation of the above.
They might be spending that time with extra studying.

Again, no 4 stars are rising through the ranks and training for 10 years because the goal was always D3.

I see d3 players that sign that are 6 utr. Maybe that guy had the goal of d3 when he just started playjng tennis at 16.
Click to expand...
No one said any of the straw man arguments you keep coming up with. For example, the 4-stars I knew did not always plan on going to a mid-major, let alone D-III. But when the time comes, and they are not getting into the lineup of an ACC team, they have several choices. Mid-major is one. D-III is another. Different players made different choices with input from their families. They all went to private schools and cared about education.

Nor was this a relic from a previous era. Schools like Davidson are still full of American kids on their rosters. Did those 4-star players have a "right" to go to a Power-4 school like Houston or Baylor or Texas Tech or Oklahoma State where they don't get any better education than they are getting at Davidson, just so their parents can brag that they are on a Power-4 team? What's the point?

The players (and families) who choose to pay a fortune at premier academic D-III schools could have sought out alternatives like Furman or Davidson. They chose to pay a fortune to seek higher prestige diplomas (although not a whole lot higher). With their values, I don't think Houston and Oklahoma State and Texas Tech held much appeal, so who cares if those schools recruit foreigners?

People are making choices of their own free will. In our cultural landscape today, the tennis opportunities at D-II state schools, low majors and many mid-majors, etc., are not prestigious enough for American families.

Why don't you list all the schools that you would be happy to have your child play tennis at? Give a complete list, and we will see what your priorities are. We will see whether you have any real complaint, or just a sense of entitlement to a "better" school/team.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Again, point Is that in all other sports, 4 stars are exceptional.

College football had 27,000 players on a scholarship.

Annually,
30 are 5 star
About 380 are 4 star.

Only in tennis does it also mean you are “exceptional” but not good enough for d1. Or maybe some can make a low level d1, and the rest are d3.

That’s due to the foreign invasion.
Click to expand...
Well, obviously, terminology like "blue chip" and "5-star" and "4-star" does not have the same meaning across different sports. When participation numbers are huge (as in football), if there are only 30 5-star recruits, then that is a much higher level to achieve than being top 25 in tennis, which is defined as "blue chip" recruit.

As a percentage of participants in high school, top 30 national recruit in football might be equivalent to top 2 or 3 in tennis. What's the point? "4-star" is arbitrary terminology.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Again, point Is that in all other sports, 4 stars are exceptional.

College football had 27,000 players on a scholarship.

Annually,
30 are 5 star
About 380 are 4 star.

Only in tennis does it also mean you are “exceptional” but not good enough for d1. Or maybe some can make a low level d1, and the rest are d3.

That’s due to the foreign invasion.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is ridiculous. About 5,000 men's D1 tennis players. Let's round up and say the best 100 in the country get an offer for D1.

The message is simple. If you want to be a men's D1 athlete, don't even think about tennis. That's a shame for those of us who love the sport.
 
gatorbait01 said:
Yes, this is ridiculous. About 5,000 men's D1 tennis players. Let's round up and say the best 100 in the country get an offer for D1.

The message is simple. If you want to be a men's D1 athlete, don't even think about tennis. That's a shame for those of us who love the sport.
Click to expand...
Is this confined to just college though. If you want to be a successful pro athlete don’t choose tennis either considering you have to be top 200 minimum and more likely top 100 in the entire world to make a decent living. Compared to other pro sports with way more spots. Where you can be in the top couple thousand in the world to make a living and also compete against a smaller worldwide spread.

Tennis is just a brutal individual sport to try and make it in. And that’s not the fault of college tennis.
 
Clemson_tennis said:
Is this confined to just college though. If you want to be a successful pro athlete don’t choose tennis either considering you have to be top 200 minimum and more likely top 100 in the entire world to make a decent living. Compared to other pro sports with way more spots. Where you can be in the top couple thousand in the world to make a living and also compete against a smaller worldwide spread.

Tennis is just a brutal individual sport to try and make it in. And that’s not the fault of college tennis.
Click to expand...
That's for sure true but it's why I never mentioned anything about becoming professional. What is the fault of college tennis is recruiting international washed out professionals to take American kids roster spots. To become professional you should have to compete with the world. To be a D1 college athlete in the US you shouldn't have to.
 
ClarkC said:
No one said any of the straw man arguments you keep coming up with. For example, the 4-stars I knew did not always plan on going to a mid-major, let alone D-III. But when the time comes, and they are not getting into the lineup of an ACC team, they have several choices. Mid-major is one. D-III is another. Different players made different choices with input from their families. They all went to private schools and cared about education.

Nor was this a relic from a previous era. Schools like Davidson are still full of American kids on their rosters. Did those 4-star players have a "right" to go to a Power-4 school like Houston or Baylor or Texas Tech or Oklahoma State where they don't get any better education than they are getting at Davidson, just so their parents can brag that they are on a Power-4 team? What's the point?

The players (and families) who choose to pay a fortune at premier academic D-III schools could have sought out alternatives like Furman or Davidson. They chose to pay a fortune to seek higher prestige diplomas (although not a whole lot higher). With their values, I don't think Houston and Oklahoma State and Texas Tech held much appeal, so who cares if those schools recruit foreigners?

People are making choices of their own free will. In our cultural landscape today, the tennis opportunities at D-II state schools, low majors and many mid-majors, etc., are not prestigious enough for American families.

Why don't you list all the schools that you would be happy to have your child play tennis at? Give a complete list, and we will see what your priorities are. We will see whether you have any real complaint, or just a sense of entitlement to a "better" school/team.
Click to expand...
I didn’t even know all d3 are prestigious.

In the list above, those with choices (top 50 men and top 50 women) 22 got into Ivy leagues(prestigious) and the other 78 who did not get into Ivy are playjng d1. Not 1 chose d3 prestige.

I am not that much of a snob I suppose. In my opinion, becoming a 4 star is a tough accomplishment. Especially this day and age with reclassing.

You are claiming the 4 stars that chose d3 got many d1 offers and turned them down. Any proof of that? Clearly the 5 stars and blue chips didn’t turn them down. Perhaps the offers weren’t there?

once again, knowing a few local 4 stars the only ones that reached out were the military academies.
 
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ClarkC said:
Well, obviously, terminology like "blue chip" and "5-star" and "4-star" does not have the same meaning across different sports. When participation numbers are huge (as in football), if there are only 30 5-star recruits, then that is a much higher level to achieve than being top 25 in tennis, which is defined as "blue chip" recruit.

As a percentage of participants in high school, top 30 national recruit in football might be equivalent to top 2 or 3 in tennis. What's the point? "4-star" is arbitrary terminology.
Click to expand...
4 star means you are top 200 in the entire nation.

Yes , with the foreign invasion it doesn’t mean much. That’s the point.
 
ClarkC said:
Well, obviously, terminology like "blue chip" and "5-star" and "4-star" does not have the same meaning across different sports. When participation numbers are huge (as in football), if there are only 30 5-star recruits, then that is a much higher level to achieve than being top 25 in tennis, which is defined as "blue chip" recruit.

As a percentage of participants in high school, top 30 national recruit in football might be equivalent to top 2 or 3 in tennis. What's the point? "4-star" is arbitrary terminology.
Click to expand...
This is what you aren’t understanding in today’s world. Not when your kid was in high school who knows when.

Most 4 stars(I think all) are sub 11 utr. Usually 10.5 to 11.

Now look at the roster of a school you think these kids are too snobbish to go to. Let’s say Kennesaw state.

2024-25 Men's Tennis Roster - Kennesaw State University Athletics

The official 2024-25 Men's Tennis Roster for the Kennesaw State University Owls
ksuowls.com ksuowls.com

All of these foreigners that are older, ex pros, or just better when taking from the entire planet and have higher utr’s. 11.5 to 13.

That’s exactly WHY 4 stars play d3. They are pushed out at all levels except for a few.

KSU is not contacting a 4 star 10,7 when they can rent from an entire world of foreigners.
 
Clemson_tennis said:
Is this confined to just college though. If you want to be a successful pro athlete don’t choose tennis either considering you have to be top 200 minimum and more likely top 100 in the entire world to make a decent living. Compared to other pro sports with way more spots. Where you can be in the top couple thousand in the world to make a living and also compete against a smaller worldwide spread.

Tennis is just a brutal individual sport to try and make it in. And that’s not the fault of college tennis.
Click to expand...
Yes, but don't expect a reply from the troll. He answers whatever he wants to answer, ignores the rest, then concocts straw man arguments that he would rather reply to than real arguments.
 
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