Reconstructing my FH (video)

[Gyswandir]

Hi,

I am in the process of changing my FH. Main issues was lack of “penetration/extension/drive” whatever you wish to call it. Symptom was evident in the following cases:
- pace-less balls
- moon balls to the baseline
I would almost always net them with too much topspin

Coach telling me
- my contact point is too much in front to allow proper drive
- I don’t “extend” through contact (think hitting 3 balls)
- my stroke ends prematurely (need to make sure my elbow is still going through the stroke until it is in front of me - typically in front of my chin from the baseline) and I do the WW wrap too early.

In the video above (2 weeks ago) I am working on this. Right now, I have completely lost confidence in my stroke, where it has become worse than it was. I am doubting everything: backswing, pronation on take-back, contact point, and follow through. So, I am currently thinking too much, when I am trying to hit my FH, which is leading to even more errors. I am hoping this is just a phase, before things start jelling.

The purpose of this post is:
- primary, can you identify what/where in my stroke is leading to the lack of drive and over spinning?
- secondary, is the backswing an issue in that it isn’t pronated and no PTD?

I will try to video record my next lesson and post as a follow up.
@tennis_balla
@SinjinCooper (if you’re still around)
@Curiosity

 

[Bender]

Honestly, it's a nice shot. I can see some fedr influence in there.

Better more knowledgeable posters that me will probably spot all the issues, but for now the main thing I see in your video is that your forehand--despite the evident upper body coil and uncoiling, and leg drive--seems to involve a fair bit of arm?

So when you swing forward, your arm doesn't lag behind your torso--the arm seems to move forward before the torso does, which means that your core does not contribute much if at all to your forehand.

It's easy to overspin with little court penetration with an armed forehand...I've seen quite a lot of those on these boards.

It might also explain why your followthrough is so short relative to the size of your takeback.

Still, it's a very pretty forehand that will look even prettier once you sort out the arming thing.

 

[Curious]

So when you swing forward, your arm doesn't lag behind your torso-

@ByeByePoly once pointed out that arm actually never lags behind torso, but moves simultaneously with it, It's the racket that lags because of the loose wrist joint. I then looked into it and realized he was right. . Slow motion videos prove that. Watch this one that may surprise you.

 

[tennis_balla]

The problem I see on your open stance forehands is you load nicely but then only use your upper body for the shot and your legs aren’t doing anything. You should be loading on and loading off that back foot in open/semi-open stance and you’re just loading on.

If you notice the shorter balls where you’re forced to move forward you’re forced to engage your legs a lot more and the shot doesn’t look as disjointed.

 

[Curious]

you load nicely but then only use your upper body for the shot and your legs aren’t doing anything.

I'm curious to know how you can tell that he is not using his legs. The legs seem to extend and hips rotate. For example what are the signs indicating that Federer is using his legs in this video, that you don't see in OPs forehand?

 

[snvplayer]

The problem I see on your open stance forehands is you load nicely but then only use your upper body for the shot and your legs aren’t doing anything. You should be loading on and loading off that back foot in open/semi-open stance and you’re just loading on.

If you notice the shorter balls where you’re forced to move forward you’re forced to engage your legs a lot more and the shot doesn’t look as disjointed.

Would you say forehand at 0:29 is a classic example of what you said? And forehand at 0:44 is better executed?

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly once pointed out that arm actually never lags behind torso, but moves simultaneously with it, It's the racket that lags because of the loose wrist joint. I then looked into it and realized he was right. . Slow motion videos prove that. Watch this one that may surprise you.

Yeah, and his hip doesn't rotate before his shoulders, and he uses plenty of arm.

That is the "being right" trifecta.

I should never encourage me.

@Bender has been schooled on "no arm lag". He just had a brain fart relapse.

 

[Bender]

@ByeByePoly once pointed out that arm actually never lags behind torso, but moves simultaneously with it, It's the racket that lags because of the loose wrist joint. I then looked into it and realized he was right. . Slow motion videos prove that. Watch this one that may surprise you.

@ByeByePoly and I had a rather heated discussion on this very topic back when he first joined the forums and back when I still had no idea what I was getting into by quoting his post or tagging him to one.

We agreed to disagree, and I have since experimented with both to no useful results (on a bad day, the locked shoulder seemed to help with timing at the expense of a bit of shoulder pain, on a good day the locked shoulder felt less fluid compared to a loose one).

What I think now is that the pros most certainly don’t think about the shoulder at all, and because the shoulder is not that flexible in that direction, and the weight of the frame not heavy in the grand scheme of things, any arm lag starting at the shoulder is going to be negligible.

However, the reason why I will not agree with your post is because I don’t think you quite understand what I meant by my post. I’m not saying OP’s forehand looks off because there’s no arm lag, I’m saying that the arm moves first, and then the rest of the body, ie he’s arming his forehand. Regardless of whether you take @ByeByePoly’s side or mine, we both agree that the arm never moves AHEAD of the legs and torso.


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[Curious]

I’m not saying OP’s forehand looks off because there’s no arm lag

Well, this is what you said while explaining the problem with his forehand:

So when you swing forward, your arm doesn't lag behind your torso

And how do you really know his arm moves before his torso, they seem to be moving together just like Federer's in the video. Interestingly his arm moves ahead of torso once the torso is parallel to the baseline, again just like Federer's ( watch OP's video at 0.25x speed ).

 

[Bender]

Well, this is what you said while explaining the problem with his forehand:



And how do you really know his arm moves before his torso, they seem to be moving together just like Federer's in the video. Interestingly his arm moves ahead of torso once the torso is parallel to the baseline, again just like Federer's ( watch OP's video at 0.25x speed ).

That’s what I said, and my second post clarified what I meant. Not sure what the point of pointing out my original post is at this point.

The arm moves ahead of the torso as it approaches the contact point precisely because the torso is slinging the arm forward, which requires a loose shoulder. See if you can achieve that by locking your shoulder and let me know how that goes for you.




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[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly and I had a rather heated discussion on this very topic back when he first joined the forums and back when I still had no idea what I was getting into by quoting his post or tagging him to one.

We agreed to disagree, and I have since experimented with both to no useful results (on a bad day, the locked shoulder seemed to help with timing at the expense of a bit of shoulder pain, on a good day the locked shoulder felt less fluid compared to a loose one).

What I think now is that the pros most certainly don’t think about the shoulder at all, and because the shoulder is not that flexible in that direction, and the weight of the frame not heavy in the grand scheme of things, any arm lag starting at the shoulder is going to be negligible.

However, the reason why I will not agree with your post is because I don’t think you quite understand what I meant by my post. I’m not saying OP’s forehand looks off because there’s no arm lag, I’m saying that the arm moves first, and then the rest of the body, ie he’s arming his forehand. Regardless of whether you take @ByeByePoly’s side or mine, we both agree that the arm never moves AHEAD of the legs and torso.


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Jeeze ... I left thinking you had come to your senses, and you were still hanging on to your "upper arm lags at the shoulder joint" mythology.

Gyswandir's arm does not move forward ahead of his shoulder turn... it moves with it. I think we all (including Fed) use a lot of arm in our FH as/after shoulder turn starts forward. I think Fed probably kicks in the arm effort a little after the shoulder turn starts, and most WTA players fire arm immediately on shoulder turn (arm and hand behind back).

"we both agree that the arm never moves AHEAD of the legs and torso."

The shoulders and hand move inline in forward swing ... but not all the way to contact. Check Gyswandir's and Fed's arm position at contact. The arm has moved ahead of the shoulder line. Shoulder line probably past torso at contact ... although torso twists, not sure there

 

[Curious]

That’s what I said, and my second post clarified what I meant. Not sure what the point of pointing out my original post is at this point.

The point is you thought/implied that the arm is supposed to lag behind torso and I showed you video evidence that it is not correct.
Now, the OP may still be using arm more than ideal but I don't see it by just looking at his video.

 

[ByeByePoly]

That’s what I said, and my second post clarified what I meant. Not sure what the point of pointing out my original post is at this point.

The arm moves ahead of the torso as it approaches the contact point precisely because the torso is slinging the arm forward, which requires a loose shoulder. See if you can achieve that by locking your shoulder and let me know how that goes for you.




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Yes, exactly. The momentum passed from torso/shoulder to arm. This is where I refer to shoulder turn pause. The shoulder turn pauses (or comes close), the arm is flung forward, and then the shoulder turn will start again in the finish of follow through.

The main point is Fed's FH is a delivery of the arm more than a spinning arm around body.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The point is you thought/implied that the arm is supposed to lag behind torso and I showed you video evidence that it is not correct.
Now, the OP may still be using arm more than ideal but I don't see it by just looking at his video.

Nah ... Bender is basically agreeing, he just typed wrong at first. There is valid debate/detail about arm/shoulder locking mechanism at forward swing. @Curiosity used to talk about this. The idea is with proper esr/isr position, the arm has to travel with shoulder because it is locked. That is above my pay grade, and decided it wasn't something I wanted to worry about with my rec FH. If I am using arm muscles to hold it's position, I am fine with that ... still sleeping great.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The point is you thought/implied that the arm is supposed to lag behind torso and I showed you video evidence that it is not correct.
Now, the OP may still be using arm more than ideal but I don't see it by just looking at his video.

"Now, the OP may still be using arm more than ideal but I don't see it by just looking at his video."

The definition of "arming" here (ttw) is fluid. It can mean nipples to the net FHs with insufficient shoulder turn. But Gyswandir has great shoulder turn, not a nipples to the net FH. At this point, arming migrates to meaning too much shoulder (shouldering) relative to all the k-stuff below the shoulders. I think insufficient shoulder turn is a thing, but that 2nd one isn't.

 

[tennis_balla]

I'm curious to know how you can tell that he is not using his legs. The legs seem to extend and hips rotate. For example what are the signs indicating that Federer is using his legs in this video, that you don't see in OPs forehand?

Ok I’ll try and explain it a different way.

To me he looks heavy. Sure he could be on his toes more if one were to be picky, but the OP loads and is in that position in my view a tad too long and doesn’t release. To me it seems he rotates his hips and shoulders but doesn’t release his feet. Not saying they have to come off the ground but looking at his forehand, in my opinion he looks feet heavy and anchored down.

Edit:
Forgot to add, I believe the problem lies before contact and before his load. When I talked about heavy feet, watch how heavily he “hops” or bounces to the ball. He’s trying to do the right thing but if that ball doesn’t end up where he thinks it’ll be, he won’t be able to adjust. Hope this makes sense.

 

[IowaGuy]

lack of “penetration/extension/drive”

How much swingweight does your racket have?

Not sure what your goals are, but I think most rec players would be very happy with your FH. Adding some swingweight might give you more of the penetration/plowthrough that you're seeking, without trying to go through a redesign of an otherwise pretty nice stroke for rec standards.

 

[Curious]

Nah ... Bender is basically agreeing, he just typed wrong at first. There is valid debate/detail about arm/shoulder locking mechanism at forward swing. @Curiosity used to talk about this. The idea is with proper esr/isr position, the arm has to travel with shoulder because it is locked. That is above my pay grade, and decided it wasn't something I wanted to worry about with my rec FH. If I am using arm muscles to hold it's position, I am fine with that ... still sleeping great.

I don't think it's because the shoulder is locked. There is no reason for that to happen anatomically. Maybe the torso rotation is never powerful enough to force the arm to lag from the shoulder.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hi,

I am in the process of changing my FH. Main issues was lack of “penetration/extension/drive” whatever you wish to call it. Symptom was evident in the following cases:
- pace-less balls
- moon balls to the baseline
I would almost always net them with too much topspin

Coach telling me
- my contact point is too much in front to allow proper drive
- I don’t “extend” through contact (think hitting 3 balls)
- my stroke ends prematurely (need to make sure my elbow is still going through the stroke until it is in front of me - typically in front of my chin from the baseline) and I do the WW wrap too early.

In the video above (2 weeks ago) I am working on this. Right now, I have completely lost confidence in my stroke, where it has become worse than it was. I am doubting everything: backswing, pronation on take-back, contact point, and follow through. So, I am currently thinking too much, when I am trying to hit my FH, which is leading to even more errors. I am hoping this is just a phase, before things start jelling.

The purpose of this post is:
- primary, can you identify what/where in my stroke is leading to the lack of drive and over spinning?
- secondary, is the backswing an issue in that it isn’t pronated and no PTD?

I will try to video record my next lesson and post as a follow up.
@tennis_balla
@SinjinCooper (if you’re still around)
@Curiosity

fyi ... in the discussion I forgot to actually reply to your post.

Your FH looks good. Great stance, full hip+shoulder turn. Yes, perhaps you might experiment with powering up more with back leg, but stroke looks good. Pound that sucker ... enjoy.

 

[Curious]

Ok I’ll try and explain it a different way.

To me he looks heavy. Sure he could be on his toes more if one were to be picky, but the OP loads and is in that position in my view a tad too long and doesn’t release. To me it seems he rotates his hips and shoulders but doesn’t release his feet. Not saying they have to come off the ground but looking at his forehand, in my opinion he looks feet heavy and anchored down.

Fair enough. The pushing from the legs involve two major movements: quadriceps extending the leg and calf muscle plantarflexing the foot ie pushing from the ball of foot. The latter is usually quite obvious when you watch Fed's forehands.

 

[Bender]

I don't think it's because the shoulder is locked. There is no reason for that to happen anatomically. Maybe the torso rotation is never powerful enough to force the arm to lag from the shoulder.

With this post you’re essentially agreeing with me. I don’t think there’s a need to think about driving the arm with the torso as one unit—I certainly don’t think about it when I’m skipping rocks at the beach, and the motion is very similar between those two motions.

My point is that the arm in OP’s video comes forward prematurely; it almost in full motion before his torso seems to uncoil, whereas in Federer or Nadal’s forehands (and I suggest you see videos of him in high intensity rallies than in warmups) the torso turns either in sync with the upper arm and shoulder or with the arm negligibly lagging behind.

Since I don’t see why anyone should lock their shoulder (there’s no benefit, and it would appear to put unnecessary stress on the joint imo) I’m inclined to believe that there is going to be some tiny amount of lag, but as I mentioned earlier it’s not important enough or significant enough to be a topic in its own right imo.


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[Curious]

With this post you’re essentially agreeing with me. I don’t think there’s a need to think about driving the arm with the torso as one unit—I certainly don’t think about it when I’m skipping rocks at the beach, and the motion is very similar between those two motions.

My point is that the arm in OP’s video comes forward prematurely; it almost in full motion before his torso seems to uncoil, whereas in Federer or Nadal’s forehands (and I suggest you see videos of him in high intensity rallies than in warmups) the torso turns either in sync with the upper arm and shoulder or with the arm negligibly lagging behind.

Since I don’t see why anyone should lock their shoulder (there’s no benefit, and it would appear to put unnecessary stress on the joint imo) I’m inclined to believe that there is going to be some tiny amount of lag, but as I mentioned earlier it’s not important enough or significant enough to be a topic in its own right imo.


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No worries. I can throw a rock side arm pretty well, since I was a little kid actually. So I know that feeling of keeping the arm and the wrist very loose and getting power from the body but I also believe the arm does a lot of work too. TTW community is so much obsessed about this arming thing that it's almost like a sin to even think or say otherwise. Here we have a great forehand and the first reply to the thread is 'sorry mate but it's all arming'. Come ooon, man!

 

[FiReFTW]

The problem I see on your open stance forehands is you load nicely but then only use your upper body for the shot and your legs aren’t doing anything.

Ridicilous and untrue, OP don't listen to this advice, its flat out wrong, you are clearly loading and pushing with ur legs, its the driving point that starts your every swing.

OP your swing is good to be honest, I fail to see how you lack much power, theres only 1 glaring thing that is robbing yout of alot of power as I see it, its your pause at the backswing, instead of having a nice loop that never stops the racquet so the racquet is constantly moving as you drop it and swing it, you pause it at the drop and then swing, thats the only major thing that robs you of power, other than that it looks nice and fluid.

Maybe also your racquet or string tension is at fault? Whats your racquet, strings and tension?

 

[tennis_balla]

Fair enough. The pushing from the legs involve two major movements: quadriceps extending the leg and calf muscle plantarflexing the foot ie pushing from the ball of foot. The latter is usually quite obvious when you watch Fed's forehands.

Yes the latter definitely, Fed is really good at that as are a lot of good players.
One of the reasons skipping rope is so beneficial for tennis players.

I believe it was Becker who once mentioned about a player having stiff or heavy ankles. I can’t remember now exactly too vague

 

[ByeByePoly]

No worries. I can throw a rock side arm pretty well, since I was a little kid actually. So I know that feeling of keeping the arm and the wrist very loose and getting power from the body but I also believe the arm does a lot of work too. TTW community is so much obsessed about this arming thing that it's almost like a sin to even think or say otherwise. Here we have a great forehand and the first reply to the thread is 'sorry mate but it's all arming'. Come ooon, man!

"TTW community is so much obsessed about this arming thing that it's almost like a sin to even think or say otherwise."

I agree with that. But the larger context is I've learned more about strokes and strings here in under 2 years than I ever would have taking local lessons. @Bender single handedly finally got me to understand hand/wrist movements in the flip FH.

I read the great tips here, and then hold them up against pro video. The "very little arm" thing didn't pass the test. It also fails every time I watch pro tennis on TV. From there I ask ... "if that doesn't hold up, what else doesn't". My most recent "alternative view" is leg+hip+torso+shoulders is one link in the k-chain, not multiple.

Maybe following is closer to what really happens in open FH:
1) leg,hip,torso,shoulder all fire as one first event
2) arm effort
3) racquet rotation around hand

That obviously flies against the long k-chain minimum arm model.

To me, the FH is easier to understand in rotations around joints, rather than muscles:
- upper body around hip
- arm moving forward and rotating in shoulder joint
- racquet rotating around hand

 

[Deleted member 120290]

The problem I see on your open stance forehands is you load nicely but then only use your upper body for the shot and your legs aren’t doing anything. You should be loading on and loading off that back foot in open/semi-open stance and you’re just loading on.

If you notice the shorter balls where you’re forced to move forward you’re forced to engage your legs a lot more and the shot doesn’t look as disjointed.

This advice should save OP a lot of time, money and heartache.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Ridicilous and untrue, OP don't listen to this advice, its flat out wrong, you are clearly loading and pushing with ur legs, its the driving point that starts your every swing.

OP your swing is good to be honest, I fail to see how you lack much power, theres only 1 glaring thing that is robbing yout of alot of power as I see it, its your pause at the backswing, instead of having a nice loop that never stops the racquet so the racquet is constantly moving as you drop it and swing it, you pause it at the drop and then swing, thats the only major thing that robs you of power, other than that it looks nice and fluid.

Maybe also your racquet or string tension is at fault? Whats your racquet, strings and tension?

Why the "ridicilous and untrue" comments? Just disagree and debate.

I am about to "politely" disagree with one of your observations.

"instead of having a nice loop that never stops the racquet so the racquet is constantly moving as you drop it and swing it, you pause it at the drop and then swing, thats the only major thing that robs you of power,"

I think loops and drops are timing things, not power things. Check out Soderling below. His hand briefly comes to a complete stop behind his body.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This advice should save OP a lot of time, money and heartache.

Unless he plays with gut/poly.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

The one thing I'm doing different than op is after the racquet turn I start by moving off hand out toward the incoming ball after pushing off right foot which starts left shoulder turning slightly before right shoulder, while racquet head still moving back into slot. It looks like op doing good with left hand on turn but then little momentum generated with left hand to get torso moving. Hand doesn't go out kept in close to body.

 

[ptuanminh]

Your timing is so off right now. Must be overthinking about what you coach says.

 

[FiReFTW]

Why the "ridicilous and untrue" comments? Just disagree and debate.

I am about to "politely" disagree with one of your observations.

"instead of having a nice loop that never stops the racquet so the racquet is constantly moving as you drop it and swing it, you pause it at the drop and then swing, thats the only major thing that robs you of power,"

I think loops and drops are timing things, not power things. Check out Soderling below. His hand briefly comes to a complete stop behind his body.

Because I find it insulting to OP who has a good kinetic chain and overall technique of swing, that some guy claims he is not using his legs and almost arming the ball.

I politely disagree with your disagreement with me, on the video you showed Soderling has no stop in his swing, his racquet is moving all the time throughout the swing, meanwhile OP takes the racquet back then drops the racquet down and then he has a 2-3 second pause where his racquet is completely still with no movement, and then he starts his forward swing.
That stop of the momentum of the racquet makes him lose all the momentum from the racquet drop and makes him lose power.
Now of course that one little thing shouldn't make him loss that much power and OP should still swing a pretty hard shot, specialy with his good mechanics, so I assume the major reason might be the racquet, strings, tension or some combination of all, in my opinion.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

All the components are THERE !!! ... ... ... However, on some shots you have no racquet head drop at all ... on some shots you have a little, but almost half way through the forward stroke (too late to avoid giving a lot of momentum to a downward stroke path) ... on only one wide forehand did I see a low or early enough racquet head drop. Think of leading with your elbow ... and dropping the racquet head earlier, lower and farther back. Mindfully pointing your butt cap all the way to the net post before the forward stroke begins will help too.

MG

 

[NuBas]

I am in the process of changing my FH. Main issues was lack of “penetration/extension/drive” whatever you wish to call it. Symptom was evident in the following cases:
- pace-less balls
- moon balls to the baseline
I would almost always net them with too much topspin

Coach telling me
- my contact point is too much in front to allow proper drive
- I don’t “extend” through contact (think hitting 3 balls)
- my stroke ends prematurely (need to make sure my elbow is still going through the stroke until it is in front of me - typically in front of my chin from the baseline) and I do the WW wrap too early.

Too much chatter from other members and none addressing your post.

Honestly, from what I see, nothing suggests your balls are going long. Maybe give us a video from the back. Your strokes are great, can't see why you cannot figure out this on your own.
If anything contacting in front of body is best for drive and pace. Now my observations, I think you are brushing up more than you are getting lower on the ball, your racquet could start lower before contact. Instead of brushing up on the ball so much, maybe you could relax your hand and allow it to speed up rather than pulling up.

What do you focus on with your forehand? Could you perhaps focus on sweet spot more, it might give you more bite and pace.

 

[RetroSpin]

Ok I’ll try and explain it a different way.

To me he looks heavy. Sure he could be on his toes more if one were to be picky, but the OP loads and is in that position in my view a tad too long and doesn’t release. To me it seems he rotates his hips and shoulders but doesn’t release his feet. Not saying they have to come off the ground but looking at his forehand, in my opinion he looks feet heavy and anchored down.

Edit:
Forgot to add, I believe the problem lies before contact and before his load. When I talked about heavy feet, watch how heavily he “hops” or bounces to the ball. He’s trying to do the right thing but if that ball doesn’t end up where he thinks it’ll be, he won’t be able to adjust. Hope this makes sense.

You're spot on IMO. He is not quite playing flat-footed but he looks unathletic. It's not just his feet either. His entire swing is kind of wooden and forced. I think that may partly stem from some of the terrible coaching he has apparently received, ie "hit through three balls."

To the OP, forget what your coach told you and do it like this guy.

 

[mad dog1]

All the components are THERE !!! ... ... ... However, on some shots you have no racquet head drop at all ... on some shots you have a little, but almost half way through the forward stroke (too late to avoid giving a lot of momentum to a downward stroke path) ... on only one wide forehand did I see a low or early enough racquet head drop. Think of leading with your elbow ... and dropping the racquet head earlier, lower and farther back. Mindfully pointing your butt cap all the way to the net post before the forward stroke begins will help too.

MG

Lack of racquet head drop usually results in a flatter ball (less spin and lower trajectory) on the ball but OP says he hits paceless moonballs to the baseline. Honestly not quite sure how he manages to hit paceless moonballs with his current swingpath.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

Lack of racquet head drop usually results in a flatter ball (less spin and lower trajectory) on the ball but OP says he hits paceless moonballs to the baseline. Honestly not quite sure how he manages to hit paceless moonballs with his current swingpath.

Without dropping his racquet head all the way down ... or back ... he has a shorter forward stroke path to gain momentum. He is also starting the whole process late, which makes him have to rush through the stroke. Start earlier and make sure the racquet head gets all the way back and down (even "forcing" it to the SAME racquet back position) on ALL balls ... high or low. His backswing is currently all over the place, depending on the ball. In competition this may need to happen at times, but right now in workouts he needs to be more conscious of his backswing-component consistency.

MG

 

[NuBas]

@Gyswandir don't listen to people complaining about your footwork or mechanics, they are fine and you are not heavy on your feet, quite the opposite.

Lack of racquet head drop usually results in a flatter ball (less spin and lower trajectory) on the ball but OP says he hits paceless moonballs to the baseline. Honestly not quite sure how he manages to hit paceless moonballs with his current swingpath.

Exactly, if anything it looks like he has drive and pace.

Without dropping his racquet head all the way down ... or back ... he has a shorter forward stroke path to gain momentum. He is also starting the whole process late, which makes him have to rush through the stroke. Start earlier and make sure the racquet head gets all the way back and down (even "forcing" it to the SAME racquet back position) on ALL balls ... high or low. His backswing is currently all over the place, depending on the ball. In competition this may need to happen at times, but right now in workouts he needs to be more conscious of his backswing-component consistency.

MG

I see none of this...

 

[ChaelAZ]

- my contact point is too much in front to allow proper drive
- I don’t “extend” through contact (think hitting 3 balls)
- my stroke ends prematurely (need to make sure my elbow is still going through the stroke until it is in front of me - typically in front of my chin from the baseline) and I do the WW wrap too early.

I think it ticks the boxes of the stroke mechanics, but I do agree that there is an abbreviation right after contact that doesn't allow proper extension. Like you keep the wrist too ridged or it doesn't release forward and then you pull across to finish. I don't think the contact point is too far forward, but where you are making contact might be part of the stroke finish issue.

Good stuff overall. Thanks for posting.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

@GyswandirI see none of this...

Look at only the (instant of the) racquet head drop ... ... ... most of the backswing looks consistent ... but the racquet head drop happens to different heights and at different places during the forward stroke. Not a big "job" to just keep it in mind during a workout.

MG

 

[ByeByePoly]

Because I find it insulting to OP who has a good kinetic chain and overall technique of swing, that some guy claims he is not using his legs and almost arming the ball.

I politely disagree with your disagreement with me, on the video you showed Soderling has no stop in his swing, his racquet is moving all the time throughout the swing, meanwhile OP takes the racquet back then drops the racquet down and then he has a 2-3 second pause where his racquet is completely still with no movement, and then he starts his forward swing.
That stop of the momentum of the racquet makes him lose all the momentum from the racquet drop and makes him lose power.
Now of course that one little thing shouldn't make him loss that much power and OP should still swing a pretty hard shot, specialy with his good mechanics, so I assume the major reason might be the racquet, strings, tension or some combination of all, in my opinion.

IMO, the power all comes from the slot forward ... when the shoulder turn starts forward. Take Fed for example. His hand/racquet floats down like a butterfly ... hits the slot, and then the shoulders turn happens which creates the rhs. All kinds of different ways to end up at slot... all with great rhs. Lots of great 2hbh went right to slot with no drop ... Rios comes to mind.

So I find your advice to OP with a good FH that adding a loop or drop will add power wrong, but not insulting. If we all agreed on everything this place would be boring.

Here was another video of Soderling ... arm and hand go back, briefly pauses, then pulled forward with shoulder turn and arm. Anyone that watches Soderling hit the ball and thinks he barely uses his arm must be smoking something.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Honestly I think it's clear, look at the left hand on Solderling and op. When skaters take their arms outstretched to next to body they increase rotational speed immensely. In tennis this is combined with stopping the torso rotation which puts it all into the hitting arm. Op not using left arm at all n forward part of swing.
Learned this from one of the YouTube coaches, Ian or will.

 

[tennis_balla]

The problem with threads like this, is posters would rather argue about who's right and who's wrong instead of giving their opinion on the matter, possibly ask questions to clarify statements made and let the OP decide himself how he wants to approach and which advice he takes.
But nah, it turns into who here thinks they are right and the rest are wrong.

Personally, the fact that the coach told him to hit through 3 balls gave me all the information I needed to know after watching that video. I'm not going to give my opinion on that matter. I just wrote down how I would approach the player coaching wise, what I feel he needs to work on and what I'd work on with him. @Curious had different opinions on how he would approach it and thats fine. He backed it up. I believe he's a coach in real life as well.

Anyways, I said what I said because of my experience, education and knowing what works on court, and not in theory on a message forum, as a coach and competitive player. What background are you coming from?

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Comment on left hand and arm , if it's not part of the equation then say so. Interpret the idea not the messenger.
Keep knocking, nobody's home, I'm sleepwalking
I'm just relaying what the voice in my head is saying
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just friends with the...

 

[FiReFTW]

IMO, the power all comes from the slot forward ... when the shoulder turn starts forward. Take Fed for example. His hand/racquet floats down like a butterfly ... hits the slot, and then the shoulders turn happens which creates the rhs. All kinds of different ways to end up at slot... all with great rhs. Lots of great 2hbh went right to slot with no drop ... Rios comes to mind.

So I find your advice to OP with a good FH that adding a loop or drop will add power wrong, but not insulting. If we all agreed on everything this place would be boring.

Here was another video of Soderling ... arm and hand go back, briefly pauses, then pulled forward with shoulder turn and arm. Anyone that watches Soderling hit the ball and thinks he barely uses his arm must be smoking something.

You can disagree if you want, everyone has their own opinion, but I don't get why you keep posting videos that are not proving ur point, Soderling has absolutely no pause in your video again, his racquet keeps moving all the time and is building momentum, there is no stop at any point in that motion.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

We need TTPS to settle this once and for all.

 

[Gyswandir]

Tried to read all the replies with an open mind.
I think I need to clarify that the issue I face is overpsinning and hitting into the net, when I am faced with
- pace-less balls
- moonballs to the baseline
@tennis_balla will need to better understand the movement thing. The not unloading my leg, I get.
Other posters, will have to respond later to those that asked questions or made comments I am not sure about
As for the side discussions, please refrain. The thread becomes less about my issues and more about a conceptual argument.

 

[tennis_balla]

Tried to read all the replies with an open mind.
I think I need to clarify that the issue I face is overpsinning and hitting into the net, when I am faced with
- pace-less balls
- moonballs to the baseline
@tennis_balla will need to better understand the movement thing. The not unloading my leg, I get.
Other posters, will have to respond later to those that asked questions or made comments I am not sure about
As for the side discussions, please refrain. The thread becomes less about my issues and more about a conceptual argument.

If you're not generating any pace off slow balls and moon balls that to me reaffirms that you're not unloading properly and just using upper body. I might be wrong, because the video is short and shows you only from one angle. Would be good to see a video from the back to see incoming ball and the ball you hit.

Regardless of what I wrote, one of if not the best way to train what you have problems with is to have someone, preferably a coach, hand feed you balls like the pros on both tours do some of their drills. The ball has no pace and you will have to generate everything on your own. It will show you exactly where you're lacking and with the help of a coach who understands and knows how to train with hand feeds will be the most beneficial to your game.

 

[StringSnapper]

Hi,

I am in the process of changing my FH. Main issues was lack of “penetration/extension/drive” whatever you wish to call it. Symptom was evident in the following cases:
- pace-less balls
- moon balls to the baseline
I would almost always net them with too much topspin

Coach telling me
- my contact point is too much in front to allow proper drive
- I don’t “extend” through contact (think hitting 3 balls)
- my stroke ends prematurely (need to make sure my elbow is still going through the stroke until it is in front of me - typically in front of my chin from the baseline) and I do the WW wrap too early.

In the video above (2 weeks ago) I am working on this. Right now, I have completely lost confidence in my stroke, where it has become worse than it was. I am doubting everything: backswing, pronation on take-back, contact point, and follow through. So, I am currently thinking too much, when I am trying to hit my FH, which is leading to even more errors. I am hoping this is just a phase, before things start jelling.

The purpose of this post is:
- primary, can you identify what/where in my stroke is leading to the lack of drive and over spinning?
- secondary, is the backswing an issue in that it isn’t pronated and no PTD?

I will try to video record my next lesson and post as a follow up.
@tennis_balla
@SinjinCooper (if you’re still around)
@Curiosity

Looks like a lot of arm. Swing from the hip, keep the arm like a piece of loose sphagetti

 

[ByeByePoly]

Looks like a lot of arm. Swing from the hip, keep the arm like a piece of loose sphagetti

I am trying to remain in a refrained state ... this did not help.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Imho
The left arm is what causes most upper body rotation, the leg, hip drive initiates the left arm movement. Op may be shoving his left elbow over but he's not using the arm out away from his body to get proper balance and drive.