Recreational Ethics

[hisrob777]

Was playing a rec practice doubles match the other day. Was serving to the guy in the ad court. My first serve was out and hit the back fence and rolled to the next court which was empty. He walked over and picked up the ball making me wait around 20 seconds to hit my second serve. When he got back in return position I smiled and asked if I got a first serve. He angrily said "no second serve." Knowing he is not a "league guy" I tried to nicely explain that you are supposed to play to the servers pace. He shrugged it off saying he was just there to have fun, just serve.

How concerned should I be with common ethics rules when I play recreationally?

Should I not trouble trouble until trouble troubles me?

Was this just a case of a guy being a d**k and needing to understand that nobody wants to play with you for "fun" when you are rude.

 

[Mongolmike]

First time it happens, I let it go. Second time he does it, I call out "I've got two (balls), 2nd serve"... pause, then let it fly.

If he complains, tell him again, "I've got two balls, I don't need the first one after a miss." IMO that is all that is needed to be said. If he argues, I would repeat "I've got two, I don't need the first one after a miss."

 

[beernutz]

IMO he was a d*ck and I'd argue that since he caused the delay as it doesn't appear to have been necessary to retrieve a ball from an empty court then you should get a first serve. Since he wasn't clearing a ball that came onto your court as in the example below I don't think it is his call on whether you get a second serve.

30. Delays during service. When the server’s second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves.
When there is a delay between the first and second serves:
• The server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay;
• The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference.
The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves.

If this wasn't an isolated instance I'd probably avoid playing this person in the future.

 

[leaf]

Was playing a rec practice doubles match the other day. Was serving to the guy in the ad court. My first serve was out and hit the back fence and rolled to the next court which was empty. He walked over and picked up the ball making me wait around 20 seconds to hit my second serve. When he got back in return position I smiled and asked if I got a first serve. He angrily said "no second serve." Knowing he is not a "league guy" I tried to nicely explain that you are supposed to play to the servers pace. He shrugged it off saying he was just there to have fun, just serve.

How concerned should I be with common ethics rules when I play recreationally?

Should I not trouble trouble until trouble troubles me?

Was this just a case of a guy being a d**k and needing to understand that nobody wants to play with you for "fun" when you are rude.

Personally I think it sounds like you were both taking things a bit too seriously for it to be recreational play. When it comes to playing recreationally you shouldn't worry about an extra 20 seconds and the idea of playing at servers pace... just focus on having fun.

I've played many open level tournaments where balls come on the court, I get delayed between 1st and 2nd serves and the opponent doesn't offer me a first serve. Thats life, arguing gets me no where as it throws me off. Just have to stay focused.

Consider the rec game delays a chance to practice serving after delays.

 

[tenniscasey]

Was playing a rec practice doubles match the other day. Was serving to the guy in the ad court. My first serve was out and hit the back fence and rolled to the next court which was empty. He walked over and picked up the ball making me wait around 20 seconds to hit my second serve. When he got back in return position I smiled and asked if I got a first serve. He angrily said "no second serve." Knowing he is not a "league guy" I tried to nicely explain that you are supposed to play to the servers pace. He shrugged it off saying he was just there to have fun, just serve.

Some people are more competitive by nature, others less. Nothing wrong with either one, as long as you know which end of the pool you're in and respect the culture there.

It's hard to get a read on which end of the pool you were in for this match.

 

[awjack]

There are worse people to play against. We have a father/daughter combo that play rec matches or drills and have far worse habits/manners/etiquette.

They will both call out before the ball lands, he will not put a ball in his pocket and will never have a second ball for his second serve - he just walks around like its a surprise when its his second serve, and they often skip counting their opponents points while they are serving. Its certainly a strange experience the first time.

 

[austintennis2005]

I had a very similar situation occur this weekend, in a hotly contested 'rec' match i was serving to the ad court at 15-30, my first serve was a fault-going out wide and hitting the side fence-the opponent immediately walks over and follows the ball along the side and back fence to make sure it does not come into the court--(it did not) in the meantime i am waiting there for between 20-30 seconds to serve the 2nd serve---we got into a heated argument with him claiming the right to clear a ball and me claiming clear gamesmanship/cheating...he then quit the match and walked off....interested to see what folks think about this situation?

 

[Cindysphinx]

Was playing a rec practice doubles match the other day. Was serving to the guy in the ad court. My first serve was out and hit the back fence and rolled to the next court which was empty. He walked over and picked up the ball making me wait around 20 seconds to hit my second serve. When he got back in return position I smiled and asked if I got a first serve. He angrily said "no second serve." Knowing he is not a "league guy" I tried to nicely explain that you are supposed to play to the servers pace. He shrugged it off saying he was just there to have fun, just serve.

This is where you got off track.

Instead of advocating for a first serve, you should nod and make a mental note that he doesn't like to give an inch. When the situation is reversed, don't cut him any slack either.

In this way, you will both have the same expectations.

 

[tennis tom]

He was being a dick.

 

[gmatheis]

Why not just ask him politely to wait until the point is over to fetch a ball?

You catch more flies with honey!

 

[dcdoorknob]

I think telling him that you have 2 balls and he doesn't need to go retrieve a ball in between your 1st and 2nd serves is very reasonable.

That said, I try to not expect to be given a 1st serve very often. I just approach it with the attitude that if I miss my 1st serve, I should expect to serve a 2nd serve, and also I should be able to serve my 2nd serve just fine even if I have to wait a few seconds for something. I mean really if I can't, that's lame and something I should work to fix. If they happen to offer a 1st, that's great, but I'm not going to be standing there expecting it.

 

[Baxter]

The guy is just ignorant and needs to be taught the rules and customs of the game, that's all.

In my doubles group it's customary to give a first serve if a first serve was out, but was returned into the servers' court where it has to be cleared. The logic is that the returning team caused the delay, so the server should get a first.

We have one guy that gives a first any time a ball has to be cleared, which I think is just way too much generosity. Clearing the first serve is a normal part of the game after all.

 

[gmatheis]

Played a match last night where we had ladies doubles next to us and their balls were coming on our court every few points.

One time their ball rolled behind me between my first and second serve, and I just kept bouncing the ball until they retrieved it (yes they should have waited until my point was over). My opponent said take first serve ... but since I was only bouncing the ball and didn't feel interrupted I said 2nd serve is fine.

Like dcdoorknob said, you should be able to serve your second serve just fine with a small delay, it's only when the delay becomes unreasonable that you should expect a second serve.

that said, fetching a ball on another court and making the server wait 20 seconds is unreasonable.

 

[RetroSpin]

I had a very similar situation occur this weekend, in a hotly contested 'rec' match i was serving to the ad court at 15-30, my first serve was a fault-going out wide and hitting the side fence-the opponent immediately walks over and follows the ball along the side and back fence to make sure it does not come into the court--(it did not) in the meantime i am waiting there for between 20-30 seconds to serve the 2nd serve---we got into a heated argument with him claiming the right to clear a ball and me claiming clear gamesmanship/cheating...he then quit the match and walked off....interested to see what folks think about this situation?

I guess I'm missing a few things here. Are you saying he should have let you serve while the first ball was still rolling around? I don't agree with that. He has the right to make sure his court is clear. Did you feel he took an excessive amount of time "following" the ball?

I'm just not seeing what was so egregious that you would accuse him of cheating just because you didn't get a first serve.

 

[RetroSpin]

I think telling him that you have 2 balls and he doesn't need to go retrieve a ball in between your 1st and 2nd serves is very reasonable.

That said, I try to not expect to be given a 1st serve very often. I just approach it with the attitude that if I miss my 1st serve, I should expect to serve a 2nd serve, and also I should be able to serve my 2nd serve just fine even if I have to wait a few seconds for something. I mean really if I can't, that's lame and something I should work to fix. If they happen to offer a 1st, that's great, but I'm not going to be standing there expecting it.

My approach too. Begging for two serves conveys weakness.

 

[austintennis2005]

I guess I'm missing a few things here. Are you saying he should have let you serve while the first ball was still rolling around? I don't agree with that. He has the right to make sure his court is clear. Did you feel he took an excessive amount of time "following" the ball?

I'm just not seeing what was so egregious that you would accuse him of cheating just because you didn't get a first serve.

well he is the type player that tries to get any type of edge that he can so i was a bit more sensitive to any possible nonsense from him, when you're set to receive and the ball is rolling you can hold your position and follow the ball with your eyes to see if its going to come into the court, you dont need to immediately start walking around following the ball in case it comes into the court

 

[goober]

For a rec practice match, I would not have asked for a first serve. Just tell him you have 2 balls and you will retrieve the other after the game. If he gets it anyway, it really isn't a huge deal in my book. There are a lot worse things he can do than delaying your second serve by 20 seconds. It's a rec practice match, it means nothing. why bother getting upset over it?

 

[tennis tom]

If the receiver returns an out ball to the server's side, causing a delay, and messing up the server's rhythm, a first serve should be offered. If a slightly long serve is returned directly to the server without messing with his rhythm, a first serve does not need to be offered. Sometimes the serve is so close it's impossible to not attempt a return and call it simultaneously. A real player, who is offered a first serve when he knows he didn't deserve it will spin it in, not to take an unfair advantage.

In the OP's example, the receiver was being a dick. The receiver can watch the ball until it safely rolls out of harms way ( sometimes a ball can ricochet off a fence pole or bench and roll back onto the court). But, to delay the server's rhythm by slowly going to pick it up is gamesmanship.

A lot of dinosaur type old guys will do this to catch their breath or get a little rest. I don't think they are consciously aware they are even doing it, it's just a bad habit. If they are nice guys otherwise, and worth practicing with, it won't bother me since they are old and still in the game when others have moved on to much less demanding sports like golf or croquette, where golf carts and crock-pots are key elements to play.

A good ruse to gain a little rest or respite from the sun is to accidentally kick the ball into a shady corner.

 

[Turbo-87]

It's anarchy on the courts, I tell you! I seriously need to visit one of these clubs people have problems at.

 

[ImNotCrazy]

• The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference.
The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves.

Can someone explain this to me? First sentence says two serves are allowed when it is caused by outside inference but second sentence says clearing a ball is not sufficient time?

I don't play much competitive tennis and I didn't know that the server gets a first serve again if there was interference.

 

[LuckyR]

There is an answer to the OP's question on the rules, but I agree that this situation is about so much more than the rules. I think the OP understands this and is why he prefaced his comment with the caveat that this was "recreational" doubles with a guy who was not a "league" guy.

Basically the receiver erred in retrieving a ball that did not need to be gotten. The server compounded the error by demanding a first serve when it is specifically not an option (if the first serve would have been legitimately retrieved).

Since this sort of nonsense is essentially the bastion of the very rankest of beginners, it really does not matter. The returner is not getting an advantage through his antics, he is telegraphing the information that he is a cheater who is not to be trusted or is such a beginner that all should be forgiven and an explanation of the rules is in order.

The server's error is likely based in a lack of experience and can be ignored.

 

[hisrob777]

There is an answer to the OP's question on the rules, but I agree that this situation is about so much more than the rules. I think the OP understands this and is why he prefaced his comment with the caveat that this was "recreational" doubles with a guy who was not a "league" guy.



Basically the receiver erred in retrieving a ball that did not need to be gotten. The server compounded the error by demanding a first serve when it is specifically not an option (if the first serve would have been legitimately retrieved).



Since this sort of nonsense is essentially the bastion of the very rankest of beginners, it really does not matter. The returner is not getting an advantage through his antics, he is telegraphing the information that he is a cheater who is not to be trusted or is such a beginner that all should be forgiven and an explanation of the rules is in order.



The server's error is likely based in a lack of experience and can be ignored.

For the record I didn't "demand" a first serve. I was testing the waters a bit with this guys knowledge of the rules though. I did hit a second serve. I will say I let my racquet do the talking the rest of the match. There may or may not have been a few put aways at a certain persons feet. Lol

 

[gully]

I have seen this done intentionally to disrupt rhythm in league play, as the receiver would wait for point to finish on an adjacent court to retrieve the errant first-serve-out ball. In this case I (server's partner) had to correct his behavior. His unnecessary waiting for a ball we did not need--between first and second serves--was impeding play.

Even in a non-official (friendly) match, though, I wouldn't hesitate to tel the guy "I've got another" and if he doesn't get the hint, let the second serve fly. By retrieving a ball unnecessarily between serves, he is intentionally disrupting the server.

 

[Baxter]

Can someone explain this to me? First sentence says two serves are allowed when it is caused by outside inference but second sentence says clearing a ball is not sufficient time?

I don't play much competitive tennis and I didn't know that the server gets a first serve again if there was interference.

It think it means clearing a ball (from your own court and not caused by the receiver [by a return of an obviously long ball for example]) is not sufficient time...

 

[chatt_town]

Yea, we have quite a few of those at our park. The thing is though in his defense....most of these people don't play league play. They don't know all of the rules that go with Tennis because as he stated he is there to have fun. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. I was in the middle of my weekly singles match last week and about 6 people strolled right through the gate right in the middle of a 9 or 11 ball rally...lol...right behind me....and then when I just caught the ball and stopped they stopped walking and looked at me as to say..."why did you stop". They had no idea what they had just done and I didn't know them so I didn't even bother to tell them.

Another lady during some kids drills kept sending kids through the courts to the bathroom in the middle of points. People just don't know and it's kind of a waste of time to even try to tell them. Some will get p'off so rather than me getting p off, I just let it ride and as we say "Just charge it to the game".

IMO he was a d*ck and I'd argue that since he caused the delay as it doesn't appear to have been necessary to retrieve a ball from an empty court then you should get a first serve. Since he wasn't clearing a ball that came onto your court as in the example below I don't think it is his call on whether you get a second serve.

30. Delays during service. When the server’s second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves.
When there is a delay between the first and second serves:
• The server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay;
• The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference.
The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves.

If this wasn't an isolated instance I'd probably avoid playing this person in the future.

 

[user92626]

OP,

Sorry, I'm gonna depart from all others' opinion and say you sound like a couple d**ks I have run into. I don't really know you, but your post makes you sound like them.

First of all, in my understanding and probably almost all the guys' I know, doing a first serve again out of a gray area should be asked politely by the server, and not to be expected. In other words it's done as a courteous gesture, a favor from the receiver. If server can't get it, he should move on. The logic is that you are competitive yourself and want an advantage, so are your opponent.

I and most guys I know are irked when we run into people like yourself that elect yourself to position to lecture etiquette and rules. They forget that this is non official, no umpire, self ruled games.

 

[tennis tom]

I and most guys I know are irked when we run into people like yourself that elect yourself to position to lecture etiquette and rules. They forget that this is non official, no umpire, self ruled games.

Where do you and your pals play, so I can avoid it like the plague.

 

[user92626]

Where do you and your pals play, so I can avoid it like the plague.

Don't come to southern CA then. I've run into two holier than thou, know it all guys and that's two too many.

 

[tennis tom]

Don't come to southern CA then. I've run into two holier than thou, know it all guys and that's two too many.

Hoolyweird huh.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Yea, we have quite a few of those at our park. The thing is though in his defense....most of these people don't play league play. They don't know all of the rules that go with Tennis because as he stated he is there to have fun. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. I was in the middle of my weekly singles match last week and about 6 people strolled right through the gate right in the middle of a 9 or 11 ball rally...lol...right behind me....and then when I just caught the ball and stopped they stopped walking and looked at me as to say..."why did you stop". They had no idea what they had just done and I didn't know them so I didn't even bother to tell them.

Another lady during some kids drills kept sending kids through the courts to the bathroom in the middle of points. People just don't know and it's kind of a waste of time to even try to tell them. Some will get p'off so rather than me getting p off, I just let it ride and as we say "Just charge it to the game".

I used to play evening tennis at a public court like that. People must think that the "court" is only the part inside the lines, and that the backcourt is ok for walking through. Sort of like if people felt that the outfield was ok for picnicing on during a baseball game!

Also, when a total novice hits a ball onto the other court, they probably believe that's the first time that's happened in the history of tennis. They feel so bad they flee onto the court during a point to get the ball out of the way. They mean well.

 

[Orange]

One time their ball rolled behind me between my first and second serve, and I just kept bouncing the ball until they retrieved it (yes they should have waited until my point was over).

I think that the problem in this case was that the doubles players and you had different beliefs about proper tennis etiquette.

In my view, you should have stopped bouncing that ball, said, "I'll get it," retrieved their ball, tapped it nicely over to the closest player, accepted their apologies with a smile and said, "No problem," and walked back to the service line and served your second serve (or your first serve if your sportsmanlike and knowledgable opponent had chosen to offer it).

By not retrieving the ball for them but watching while they did so, you reinforced their erroneous idea that it is ever appropriate for players on an adjoining court to walk onto your court during your game.

 

[tennisfreak]

Don't expect a do-over and you will never be disappointed. Helps with the mental toughness too...

I always give my opponents another first serve if a ball rolls onto our court, or if there's a delay caused by an action of mine. However, I never expect the gratitude to be returned, and when it does, I will usually just hit a second serve anyways.

 

[tennis tom]

...I never expect the gratitude to be returned, and when it does, I will usually just hit a second serve anyways.

Yes........

 

[sovertennis]

Don't expect a do-over and you will never be disappointed. Helps with the mental toughness too...

I always give my opponents another first serve if a ball rolls onto our court, or if there's a delay caused by an action of mine. However, I never expect the gratitude to be returned, and when it does, I will usually just hit a second serve anyways.

Ditto. Even if there's an interruption, I refuse to believe that I need three chances to make one serve, so I don't generally accept a do-over. Also, it reinforces my self-belief, ie, that I can withstand a small interruption/annoyance and still serve a quality ball and win the point.

 

[linustennis]

so if i'm receiving a first serve, i return an out ball into the net and it kind of rolls back into my court so i have to clear it, or something similar happens. i hit it back to the other side so the server has to in some way attend to it. i should offer a first serve? which means i can never hit a serve that is close to being in because if i hit it in such a way as to cause a delay, i offer a first serve? i've always thought that a first serve was offered only if it was an outside interference.

 

[tennis tom]

...if i hit it in such a way as to cause a delay, i offer a first serve? i've always thought that a first serve was offered only if it was an outside interference.

If you return a close out ball and it upsets the server's rhythm you should offer a first serve. If you hit it straight back to the server and he doesn't fumble it, it's OK. That's why it's best to catch out serves, hit them into the bottom of the net where they stay put, or let them go to the back fence--it is an art that can be practiced. There are no mulligans in tennis although some clowns use out balls for practicing their return of serves.

 

[linustennis]

i never hit anything that is obviously out. if it's close i do return it then call it out if it's out. most people do this and i've never seen anyone offer a first serve if that return of an out serve disrupts the server's rhythm.

in a match a few weeks ago, i hit a (close) out serve into the net and it rolled back into the court, so i had to retrieve it (i did so very quickly). i thought about if i should offer a first serve, but didn't. should i have? just want to do the right thing

 

[tennis tom]

... if it's close i do return it then call it out if it's out. most people do this and i've never seen anyone offer a first serve if that return of an out serve disrupts the server's rhythm.

...in a match a few weeks ago, i hit a (close) out serve into the net and it rolled back into the court, so i had to retrieve it (i did so very quickly). i thought about if i should offer a first serve, but didn't. should i have? just want to do the right thing

Good players understand that sometimes a 100+ mph serve is so close the receiver must swing at it and call it simultaneously. That's OK if you have enough control to hit it directly back to the server or into the corner where it says put. If you fumble this and disrupt the server's rhythm YOU must offer two in all fairness. Shady rec players use this as an op to take two bites of the apple. They or their net partner see if the return of serve is going back, hesitating on their call AND when they figure out it's going into the net, long or a setter for the net man, make THE late call and don't offer two, toping it off by declaring "SECOND SERVE". This is the proverbial taking two bites out of the apple and IS slovenly cheating.

In your second example, if the ball rolls back from the net and you want to clear it, do so quickly, as you said you did and that is alright. It's when slovenly players wait around an eternity for the ball to stop rolling AND then nonchalantly walk to pick it up, then announce "SECOND SERVE" that it's cheating.

You don't sound like you are one of the above described slovenly cheating types since you are asking the right questions. Play according to the code but as a previous poster said don't expect your 3.5 rec/club opponents to do like wise. This will come in handy someday when you are playing in Monte Carlo with the Prince and Princess and you won't appear to be a barbarian.