Reducing grip size without altering weight balance

AlexanderAragon

AlexanderAragon

New User
Hello! So i wanted to reduce My grip size to a 4 1/4 instead of 4 3/8. So i removed the original grip and scraped out the foam inside which weighed around 7 grams. And since I wanted to add some lead to the racket head in the mean time I then injected 10 grams of silicon, (I have very good scale so it wouldn’t be too much or too less) to even out the 3 grams of lead I’m adding to the 12 o’clock position. So now I’m thinking that the 2 over grips will be lighter than the original grip + overgrip.. and I don’t want mess up my weight balance and make it too head heavy. Would adding the weight difference of the grips in lead to the handle work?
I am sorry in advance if I posted this in the wrong thread or if it has been answered yet..

Best regards
 
Best to check weight and balance after removing grip but before doing anything Else. Then do the mods and before adding a grip check and adjust weight and balance.
 
Irvin said:
Best to check weight and balance after removing grip but before doing anything Else. Then do the mods and before adding a grip check and adjust weight and balance.
Click to expand...
so you think That What Im planning to do wouldn’t mess with the balance? I’ve already added the silicon. And since I added 10g of silicon out of the 7g of foam I scraped out it would even out with the 3 grams I’m adding to the hoop right? But the real question is if adding the weight difference of the 2 over grips instead of replacement grip+over grip with lead to the buttcap would work?
 
At this point you've done all the hard work. I would just try it both ways.

Changing out a replacement grip only takes a few minutes.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk
 
AlexanderAragon said:
so you think That What Im planning to do wouldn’t mess with the balance? I’ve already added the silicon. And since I added 10g of silicon out of the 7g of foam I scraped out it would even out with the 3 grams I’m adding to the hoop right? But the real question is if adding the weight difference of the 2 over grips instead of replacement grip+over grip with lead to the buttcap would work?
Click to expand...
I’m not going to guess what you did. Removing 7 g of foam with a higher center of mass and adding 10 g with a very low center of mass lowers the balance. Then you’re adding weight At 12 Which will raise it. I’d rather know exactly what I need where than not to know where I started and try to get back. How do you know when it right? Don’t tell me you can feel a mm or 2.
 
Irvin said:
I’m not going to guess what you did. Removing 7 g of foam with a higher center of mass and adding 10 g with a very low center of mass lowers the balance. Then you’re adding weight At 12 Which will raise it. I’d rather know exactly what I need where than not to know where I started and try to get back. How do you know when it right? Don’t tell me you can feel a mm or 2.
Click to expand...
I am not quite sure I understand your point, are you bashing me or you trying to help me? You might have a point tho, I wasn’t aware of the center of mass thing. But what I want to achieve is reducing the grip size while maintaining the same weight.
 
AlexanderAragon said:
I am not quite sure I understand your point, are you bashing me or you trying to help me? You might have a point tho, I wasn’t aware of the center of mass thing. But what I want to achieve is reducing the grip size while maintaining the same weight.
Click to expand...

You messed up :) Next time you'll do better based on the information on this thread.

What you suggested is the only thing you can do now. You'll have to play with that setup and make changes based on how it feels.

One last thing: the biggest change you made is the 3g at 12 o'clock. That has a big impact on swingweight, as all the changes with handle weight have a very, very small impact on swingweight.
 
AlexanderAragon said:
Hello! So i wanted to reduce My grip size to a 4 1/4 instead of 4 3/8. So i removed the original grip and scraped out the foam inside which weighed around 7 grams. And since I wanted to add some lead to the racket head in the mean time I then injected 10 grams of silicon, (I have very good scale so it wouldn’t be too much or too less) to even out the 3 grams of lead I’m adding to the 12 o’clock position. So now I’m thinking that the 2 over grips will be lighter than the original grip + overgrip.. and I don’t want mess up my weight balance and make it too head heavy. Would adding the weight difference of the grips in lead to the handle work?
I am sorry in advance if I posted this in the wrong thread or if it has been answered yet..

Best regards
Click to expand...
I know you've already done most of the work but I wanted to mention this in case you had not considered this option before.
Swapping out the stock grip with a Wilson Featherthin replacement grip has reduced the grip down to the next lowest size for me every time. It does reduce the weight quite a bit but that can be compensated for to keep the balance by adding blu-tac, fishing weight, or silicone in the handle to replace whatever weight was lost.
It could be less work while still giving you a decent handle-shape feel (I'm not too fond of the feel of overgrips directly on the pallet).
 
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AlexanderAragon said:
I am not quite sure I understand your point, are you bashing me or you trying to help me? You might have a point tho, I wasn’t aware of the center of mass thing. But what I want to achieve is reducing the grip size while maintaining the same weight.
Click to expand...
Trying to help but I though you wanted to maintain the same weight and balance. From what I understand you wanted to maintain weight balance and I though that meant both. If all you’re concerned about is weight then you’re on the right track.

But a word of caution you removing mass from the handle and adding some lower then adding weight to 12. Your SW is going up a good deal even if you maintain weight balance.
 
Slowtwitcher said:
You messed up :) Next time you'll do better based on the information on this thread.

What you suggested is the only thing you can do now. You'll have to play with that setup and make changes based on how it feels.

One last thing: the biggest change you made is the 3g at 12 o'clock. That has a big impact on swingweight, as all the changes with handle weight have a very, very small impact on swingweight.
Click to expand...
I’ve yet to add the lead at 12! ✌️ Perhaps skipping that would be better? All I’ve done so far is removing the original leather grip of my racket, removing the foam and added the silicone. All tips on making this right without messing up the weight balance are helpful.
 
Slowtwitcher said:
One last thing: the biggest change you made is the 3g at 12 o'clock. That has a big impact on swingweight, as all the changes with handle weight have a very, very small impact on swingweight.
Click to expand...
Adding weight in the handle increases the RW of the racket just as much as adding weight at 12. Normally adding weight in the handle drops the balance which also effectively lowers SW. but if balance is maintained adding weight in the butt cap raises SW almost as much as adding weight at 12.
 
Irvin said:
Adding weight in the handle increases the RW of the racket just as much as adding weight at 12. Normally adding weight in the handle drops the balance which also effectively lowers SW. but if balance is maintained adding weight in the butt cap raises SW almost as much as adding weight at 12.
Click to expand...
I thought that no amount of weight added could reduce SW?
 
Irvin said:
Adding weight in the handle increases the RW of the racket just as much as adding weight at 12. Normally adding weight in the handle drops the balance which also effectively lowers SW. but if balance is maintained adding weight in the butt cap raises SW almost as much as adding weight at 12.
Click to expand...

Looks like you need to read up on SW before you give out advice :rolleyes:
 
So basically what’s going on right now is that i have removed the leather grip that is originally on the racket when you purchase it. So it’s basically the naked pallet right, I also scraped out 7g of foam/silicone that was in the handle(one tube was silicone the other was foam) I then proceeded to adding 10g of silicone in to my handle. What I was now planning on doing was to add 2 Wilson comfort over grips over the naked pallet to reduce my grip size. Obviously the original Wilson replacement grip that comes with the racket weighs more than 2 over grips, so my plan was then to somehow add that weight difference in lead to the pallet so that the ”grip reducing” wouldnt throw the balance of my racket off. My question is basically if this would work? And if so, how would the lead be distributed on the pallet?
Originally I also planed to add some lead to the 12 o’clock position but I am now a bit uncertain of it..
 
AlexanderAragon said:
I’ve yet to add the lead at 12! ✌ Perhaps skipping that would be better? All I’ve done so far is removing the original leather grip of my racket, removing the foam and added the silicone. All tips on making this right without messing up the weight balance are helpful.
Click to expand...
You can still work backwards and figure out approximately where you were to begin with
Slowtwitcher said:
Looks like you need to read up on SW before you give out advice :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
In short if you add weight at the 10 cm pivot you’re SW will not increase. You RW will increase but at the same time your balance will drop. But if RW goes up, while balance and weight are maintained you SW is going up

SW = RW + mr^2
 
how will this Center of mass thing you talked about with the foam/silicone affect the racket? And how would you proceed to balance that out?
 
Maybe make a DIY balance board and try to balance it out to the same as your racquet's factory spec using lead where needed? Without knowing how it was balanced before and without a way of accurately recreating that same balance, it's all just guesswork.
 
@AlexanderAragon Let’s make some assumptions. Say you have a racket that weighs 340 g, has a 32 cm balance and SW of 325. first I’m going to calculate the torque of the racket at the butt using the balance point time the mass. 340*32 = 10,880 gcm.

if you take off 7 g from the handle (assuming the grip is 20 cm long) you remove 7*10 = 70 gcm. Then you add 10 g at 2 cm that adds 20 gcm back so you end up with a 50 gcm reduction in torque and the racket weighs 3 g more. I can divide the new torque by the new weight to get the new balance 10,830/343 = 31,6 cm balance.

Now look at RW. RW is SW - mr^2 So initially I had a RW (inertia at balance point) of 325-(.34*22*22) = 160.4 kgcm^2. I took off 7 g at 10 cm which was 22 cm from the balance point so RW drops .007*22*22 = 3.4 Kgcm2 but at the same time I added 10 g at 2 cm which is 30 cm from the balance so I added .01*30*30 = 9 kgcm^2 to the racket so I have a net increase of 5.4 kgcm^2 in RW. Now let’s see what happened to SW.

SW = RW + mr^2 Since my new RW is 165.8, new balance is 31.6, and new weight is 343 g I can substitute to get the SW.

SW = 165.8 + (.343*21.6*21.6) so my SW is 325.8. The only reason I had such a slight increase is the Added 3 g weight was in the handle. If you add 3 g to 12 you not Only raise the balance which increases SW but you raise the RW which increases SW you you end up with a double whammy.
 
Isca said:
Maybe make a DIY balance board and try to balance it out to the same as your racquet's factory spec using lead where needed? Without knowing how it was balanced before and without a way of accurately recreating that same balance, it's all just guesswork.
Click to expand...
You don’t need a balance board you’re adding 3 g to the handle and 3 g to the head. Weight goes up 6 g but balance does not change. The 3 g in the handle raises the RW 2.7 points. While the 3 g at 12 raises the RW by 3.7 points. The only reason there is a large increase in RW for the 12 position is it is farther from the balance point.
 
Irvin said:
@AlexanderAragon Let’s make some assumptions. Say you have a racket that weighs 340 g, has a 32 cm balance and SW of 325. first I’m going to calculate the torque of the racket at the butt using the balance point time the mass. 340*32 = 10,880 gcm.

if you take off 7 g from the handle (assuming the grip is 20 cm long) you remove 7*10 = 70 gcm. Then you add 10 g at 2 cm that adds 20 gcm back so you end up with a 50 gcm reduction in torque and the racket weighs 3 g more. I can divide the new torque by the new weight to get the new balance 10,830/343 = 31,6 cm balance.

Now look at RW. RW is SW - mr^2 So initially I had a RW (inertia at balance point) of 325-(.34*22*22) = 160.4 kgcm^2. I took off 7 g at 10 cm which was 22 cm from the balance point so RW drops .007*22*22 = 3.4 Kgcm2 but at the same time I added 10 g at 2 cm which is 30 cm from the balance so I added .01*30*30 = 9 kgcm^2 to the racket so I have a net increase of 5.4 kgcm^2 in RW. Now let’s see what happened to SW.

SW = RW + mr^2 Since my new RW is 165.8, new balance is 31.6, and new weight is 343 g I can substitute to get the SW.

SW = 165.8 + (.343*21.6*21.6) so my SW is 325.8. The only reason I had such a slight increase is the Added 3 g weight was in the handle. If you add 3 g to 12 you not Only raise the balance which increases SW but you raise the RW which increases SW you you end up with a double whammy.
Click to expand...
Hmm, i Use a rf97 btw, so 340 g unstrung is spot on
 
Irvin said:
You don’t need a balance board you’re adding 3 g to the handle and 3 g to the head. Weight goes up 6 g but balance does not change. The 3 g in the handle raises the RW 2.7 points. While the 3 g at 12 raises the RW by 3.7 points. The only reason there is a large increase in RW for the 12 position is it is farther from the balance point.
Click to expand...
So If i understand This correctly, best way to counterbalance the 3g at 12 o’clock would be to add lead as close as possible to the buttcap?
 
AlexanderAragon said:
Hmm, i Use a rf97 btw, so 340 g unstrung is spot on
Click to expand...
If you add 3 g to butt and 3 g to head your weight is going up. Removing the leather grip will lower the weight again so RW drops which drops SW but you balance is going down at the same time. All these assumptions IMO is just a waste of time. If I wanted to maintain specs I would have first measured them and wor kick to the same specs. You’ll just be lucky getting back their by feel. Using default specs will work too.
 
AlexanderAragon said:
So If i understand This correctly, best way to counterbalance the 3g at 12 o’clock would be to add lead as close as possible to the buttcap?
Click to expand...
So now you’re trying to maintain the original balance by adding 6 g and forgetting about the weight? I’m getting confused in what you’re really trying to accomplish.
 
Irvin said:
@AlexanderAragon Let’s make some assumptions. Say you have a racket that weighs 340 g, has a 32 cm balance and SW of 325. first I’m going to calculate the torque of the racket at the butt using the balance point time the mass. 340*32 = 10,880 gcm.

if you take off 7 g from the handle (assuming the grip is 20 cm long) you remove 7*10 = 70 gcm. Then you add 10 g at 2 cm that adds 20 gcm back so you end up with a 50 gcm reduction in torque and the racket weighs 3 g more. I can divide the new torque by the new weight to get the new balance 10,830/343 = 31,6 cm balance.

Now look at RW. RW is SW - mr^2 So initially I had a RW (inertia at balance point) of 325-(.34*22*22) = 160.4 kgcm^2. I took off 7 g at 10 cm which was 22 cm from the balance point so RW drops .007*22*22 = 3.4 Kgcm2 but at the same time I added 10 g at 2 cm which is 30 cm from the balance so I added .01*30*30 = 9 kgcm^2 to the racket so I have a net increase of 5.4 kgcm^2 in RW. Now let’s see what happened to SW.

SW = RW + mr^2 Since my new RW is 165.8, new balance is 31.6, and new weight is 343 g I can substitute to get the SW.

SW = 165.8 + (.343*21.6*21.6) so my SW is 325.8. The only reason I had such a slight increase is the Added 3 g weight was in the handle. If you add 3 g to 12 you not Only raise the balance which increases SW but you raise the RW which increases SW you you end up with a double whammy.
Click to expand...

You're giving me a headache with your "formula" for swingweight.
 
Irvin said:
So now you’re trying to maintain the original balance by adding 6 g and forgetting about the weight? I’m getting confused in what you’re really trying to accomplish.
Click to expand...
That right there was just me trying to understand your earlier points.. I’ve said it twice or maybe even 3 times what I’m trying to achieve.. I want to reduce my grip size, by adding 2 over grips on to the naked pallet instead of using a leather replacement grip + overgrip. However the issue with this is that the weight of 2 over grips is much less than a replacement leather grip, so my question was how do I counter this issue with lead??
 
Because reducing the grip size without compensating the weight with lead would lead to my racket becoming more head heavy, which is what I’m trying to avoid. I just wanted some tips on how and where to apply the lead tape on the pallet. Across the entire handle in long strips? Or more concentrated close to the handle?
 
AlexanderAragon said:
What exactly do you mean by balance going down? And where should you add weight to avoid that?
Click to expand...
I’m confusing everyone I think And I‘m sorry about that. When I say the balance goes dow I mean it is closer to the butt. To counter that add weight above the balance point.
 
Irvin said:
Normally adding weight in the handle drops the balance which also effectively lowers SW. but if balance is maintained adding weight in the butt cap raises SW almost as much as adding weight at 12.
Click to expand...

Remember writing that? It's wrong. But please tell me more about the parallel axis theorem...
 
AlexanderAragon said:
That right there was just me trying to understand your earlier points.. I’ve said it twice or maybe even 3 times what I’m trying to achieve.. I want to reduce my grip size, by adding 2 over grips on to the naked pallet instead of using a leather replacement grip + overgrip. However the issue with this is that the weight of 2 over grips is much less than a replacement leather grip, so my question was how do I counter this issue with lead??
Click to expand...
Ok then forget about adding any weight to 12. Weigh the leather grip you took off and the 2 overwraps you want to add the difference back on the racket somewhere in the handle.
 
Last edited:
Slowtwitcher said:
Remember writing that? It's wrong. But please tell me more about the parallel axis theorem...
Click to expand...
The parallel axis theorem can be used to determine the moment of inertia of a racket about any axis. RW is inertia at the balance point while SW is the inertia (MOI) at the 10 cm axis. If you have an even balanced 68 cm racket 12 o’clock is 34 cm from the balance point and so is the butt cap. 3 g of mass added at 0 cm increases the RW 3.5 kgcm^2 and 3 g added at 12 increases at 12 increases the RW by 3.5 kgcm^2. Using the PAT SW = RW + mr^2 so if RW goes up 7 points and balance remains the same SW goes up 7 points. Weight added at the butt makes just a big a change as weight added at the head UNLESS you dont counterbalance the added weight. The reason weight added at the head only makes such a big difference is it raises the balance while weight added at the butt lowers balance If there is no counterbalancing.

@AlexanderAragon I hate your guts. LOL Why did you start this thread?

@Slowtwitcher this is not wrong it has been around for hundreds of years. Google it.
 
Irvin said:
The parallel axis theorem can be used to determine the moment of inertia of a racket about any axis. RW is inertia at the balance point while SW is the inertia (MOI) at the 10 cm axis. If you have an even balanced 68 cm racket 12 o’clock is 34 cm from the balance point and so is the butt cap. 3 g of mass added at 0 cm increases the RW 3.5 kgcm^2 and 3 g added at 12 increases at 12 increases the RW by 3.5 kgcm^2. Using the PAT SW = RW + mr^2 so if RW goes up 7 points and balance remains the same SW goes up 7 points. Weight added at the butt makes just a big a change as weight added at the head UNLESS you dont counterbalance the added weight. The reason weight added at the head only makes such a big difference is it raises the balance while weight added at the butt lowers balance If there is no counterbalancing.

@AlexanderAragon I hate your guts. LOL Why did you start this thread?

@Slowtwitcher this is not wrong it has been around for hundreds of years.
Click to expand...

What you wrote was wrong, which tells me you got the formulas but don't really understand what they mean.

Also interesting you won't own to the mistake :rolleyes:
 
Irvin said:
Ok then forget about adding any weight to 12. Weight the leather grip you too off and the 2 overwraps you want to add the difference back on the racket somewhere in the handle.
Click to expand...
Sounds Good. Does it matter Where and How i Apply the lead on the handle? Long strips going across the entire handle or shorter strips around it?
 
AlexanderAragon said:
Sounds Good. Does it matter Where and How i Apply the lead on the handle? Long strips going across the entire handle or shorter strips around it?
Click to expand...
If you want to maintain the same weight and balance. If you know the weight and balance you want and what weight you have I can tell you where to add the weight you need.
 
Irvin said:
If you want to maintain the same weight and balance. If you know the weight and balance you want and what weight you have I can tell you where to add the weight you need.
Click to expand...
I’ll try and get measurements asap, I’ve ordered grips and lead that should be coming in over the next couple days. How do you measure the balance point?
 
Irvin said:
If you want to maintain the same weight and balance. If you know the weight and balance you want and what weight you have I can tell you where to add the weight you need.
Click to expand...
What I do know is that my racket in it’s original state without removing leather grip etc was 12 points headlight. I wouldn’t mind getting it to around 10ish points head light.
 
AlexanderAragon said:
I’ll try and get measurements asap, I’ve ordered grips and lead that should be coming in over the next couple days. How do you measure the balance point?
Click to expand...
You’re going to need a balance board. You could use anything round to balance your backed but it is more accurate to know exactly where the center of the balance rod is. Here is a DIY board you can easily make for yourself.

 
As for the differences with my racket specs now and the stock rf97 is that i removed the foam/silicone from the handle. One of the tubes was filled with foam and the other with silicone. The weight of what I removed was 7g. And I added 10g of silicone. So the only difference in modification right now is the 3g added to the handle. If you look over at the rf97 stock specs is there anything you could take out from this? Like the balance point ?
 
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