relationship of Flip and lag?

[5263]

One article claims, "The so called lag (is) happening as a consequence (of) the flip" and oddly the same article claims "The idea that players consciously create "lag" is an illusion".

Isn't this an odd pair of comments for one article? If the lag can be a consequence of the lag as depicted in the article, then can't a player consciously use the Flip to get the lag? Wouldn't that be consciously creating the lag? Or is the article also claiming that a player also can't consciously do the Flip?

Is lag really that hard to create? We know some players will have lots of lag, some will have less like with traditional takebacks and some players have almost no lag, but don't you think players with very little lag can consciously improve it?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

to me the lag i create is based on how loose i am. i use just enough tension to guide the racquet "into the slot".
folks (how i used to hit) with little to no lag i think are very stiff and have a tendency to guide the racquet through to contact,... vs putting the racquet into the slot and letting the swing fire.

 

[iChen]

I don't get this lag thing...do you just get the lag then the wrist becomes "straightened" with arm instead of staying bent back to hit harder?

 

[sureshs]

Where is the article and who wrote it?

 

[5263]

I don't get this lag thing...do you just get the lag then the wrist becomes "straightened" with arm instead of staying bent back to hit harder?

This is one of the debates on the issue. Some are convinced to aggressively release the wrist forward, while some claim the wrist is held back or stays back more.

 

[dominikk1985]

I think most of that flip and lag is actually external rotation that transitions into internal rotation. Some wrist movement is present too but not too much.

 

[Bender]

Every time I flip someone off, there's a short lag before the guy receiving it gets the message

 

[FiReFTW]

Some people read way too much into some stuff and overanalyze things.
The lag back happens from the forward momentum and loose arm for example, the windshield wiper motion happens from hitting low to high etc etc... but some people focus on that so much and analyze it and say you have to do this and do that... and then people focus too much on it and try to force it, which is not really how it works.

 

[heninfan99]

it's purely platonic.

 

[marian10]

it's purely platonic.

Prove it

 

[heninfan99]

Prove it

Disprove it

 

[Limpinhitter]

I don't get this lag thing...do you just get the lag then the wrist becomes "straightened" with arm instead of staying bent back to hit harder?

It is primarily pronation/supination/pronation with minimal wrist extension and return to neutral. But, you don't purposely manipulate it. These are passive movements resulting from a proper set-up position, execution of the kinetic chain, and a loose, relaxed arm and grip.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I think most of that flip and lag is actually external rotation that transitions into internal rotation. Some wrist movement is present too but not too much.

The flip results from internal/external/internal rotation of the arm from the shoulder and the elbow. I use the terms pronation/supination/pronation generically because that best describes the hand positions throughout the swing.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Some people read way too much into some stuff and overanalyze things.

Agree for various reasons. As far back as I can find to the 80's and 90's the term lag simply refereed to the position of the racquet or racquet head in relation to the beginning of push and rotation - essentially it is the last movement of the kinetic chain with energy starting at the ground up through the legs, to the start of core rotation, through the shoulder moving forward, to the arm/elbow moving forward, then finally to the wrist laying back (flip/flop,wutevs). Or something along those lines.

Funny, back when I played competitive racquetball in the 80's the terms lag and snap were always used.

 

[5263]

Agree for various reasons. As far back as I can find to the 80's and 90's the term lag simply refereed to the position of the racquet or racquet head in relation to the beginning of push and rotation ...........
Funny, back when I played competitive racquetball in the 80's the terms lag and snap were always used.

Imo that is still the meaning of lag, but many get caught up into stylistic uses of the term and particular timing of it. Yes, you get an initial lag at the flip, but you also get a continued lag as you take the hand out to the ball. That lag is very key to RHS for a couple of reasons, but mainly because the hand is so much faster when dragging the racket than when pushing it as you get when you don't lag.

In racquetball, you do snap the wrist ....at least how I was taught by the open level Nat'l champ. In tennis, the only snap type motion I can see is to snap the hand "up and across" right before contact to bring the lagging Strings to the ball via centripetal force.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

folks (how i used to hit) with little to no lag i think are very stiff and have a tendency to guide the racquet through to contact,... vs putting the racquet into the slot and letting the swing fire.

This is what I see in almost every video posted here

 

[Curiosity]

Prove it

He can't. He's probably an ideal solid of some sort, one of the five. I'm not ideal in any sense.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I think most of that flip and lag is actually external rotation that transitions into internal rotation. Some wrist movement is present too but not too much.

This is a key point.

Can't tell how much Fed is extending the wrist, but he is probably not at maximum wrist extension.

Let external shoulder rotation and forearm supination create most of the lag. A severely extended wrist will lead to injury.

First try it with wrist in a neutral or slightly extended position, and gradually increase wrist extension, if needed.

 

[JCo872]

One article claims, "The so called lag (is) happening as a consequence (of) the flip" and oddly the same article claims "The idea that players consciously create "lag" is an illusion".

Isn't this an odd pair of comments for one article? If the lag can be a consequence of the lag as depicted in the article, then can't a player consciously use the Flip to get the lag? Wouldn't that be consciously creating the lag? Or is the article also claiming that a player also can't consciously do the Flip?

Is lag really that hard to create? We know some players will have lots of lag, some will have less like with traditional takebacks and some players have almost no lag, but don't you think players with very little lag can consciously improve it?

 

[GrandSlammer]

One article claims, "The so called lag (is) happening as a consequence (of) the flip" and oddly the same article claims "The idea that players consciously create "lag" is an illusion".

Isn't this an odd pair of comments for one article?

Nope! I'm going to take a stab and guess the article was referencing professional players.

If the lag can be a consequence of the lag as depicted in the article, then can't a player consciously use the Flip to get the lag? Wouldn't that be consciously creating the lag? Or is the article also claiming that a player also can't consciously do the Flip?

Sure, a player could consciously use the flip when learning to create lag. But isn't the flip itself also a consequence of other things once it is mastered?

Is lag really that hard to create? We know some players will have lots of lag, some will have less like with traditional takebacks and some players have almost no lag, but don't you think players with very little lag can consciously improve it?

Unconscious competence is the end goal but achieving it is a process and involves conscious movements during the learning process. It's one way of learning a new skill.

http://www.drillscience.com/dps/competence4stages.pdf

 

[Raul_SJ]

(1) Del Potro: Racket face on edge... There is definitely racket lag but I do not see a flip.
(2) Dmitrov: Racket face momentarily points to the ground? Followed by flip?

It is confusing...Don't see how the lag/flip is a natural consequence of anything; it must be consciously worked on, IMO, depending on what hitting style one chooses to use.

 

[JCo872]

Nice observation about Del Potro versus Dimitrov.

Like you observed, Dimitrov has the "flip" where the racket goes from pointing to the right side and then "flips" backwards to where it is almost pointing to the left sideline (not quite that far but a really extreme change in direction!). With Del Potro you are spot on - there isn't that extreme change in direction (although the layback itself is extreme). The racket goes from pointing straight back (as you observed) to twisting backwards (like Dimitrov) as he starts his pull forward.

However - and I think this is the key - in both cases they reach the same position as they begin pulling forward - with the tip of the racket twisted backwards and the butt cap of the racket pointing to the right net post as they pull forward. The end result - in both cases - is the creation of the stretch shortening cycle (and lag). Not sure what the extra flip gets you? Possibly more spin?

Either way - these are two variations of the same principle. I wouldn't get confused by it - just one is more extreme than the other.

 

[ByeByePoly]

(1) Del Potro: Racket face on edge... There is definitely racket lag but I do not see a flip.
(2) Dmitrov: Racket face momentarily points to the ground? Followed by flip?

It is confusing...Don't see how the lag/flip is a natural consequence of anything; it must be consciously worked on, IMO, depending on what hitting style one chooses to use.

Kind of begs the question why Dmitrov when you could Del Potro? Simpler, easier to time with the same result. The $ is made from their common butt cap pointing toward right net post to contact.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Nope! I'm going to take a stab and guess the article was referencing professional players.


Sure, a player could consciously use the flip when learning to create lag. But isn't the flip itself also a consequence of other things once it is mastered?



Unconscious competence is the end goal but achieving it is a process and involves conscious movements during the learning process. It's one way of learning a new skill.

http://www.drillscience.com/dps/competence4stages.pdf

"Unconscious competence is the end goal but achieving it is a process and involves conscious movements during the learning process. It's one way of learning a new skill."

Yep ... rotate that forearm clockwise "consciously" until it's muscle memory. This does not mean an automatic flaw in your technique ... it just means you are learning new sh*t.

 

[Raul_SJ]

However - and I think this is the key - in both cases they reach the same position as they begin pulling forward - with the tip of the racket twisted backwards and the butt cap of the racket pointing to the right net post as they pull forward. The end result - in both cases - is the creation of the stretch shortening cycle (and lag). Not sure what the extra flip gets you? Possibly more spin?

Either way - these are two variations of the same principle. I wouldn't get confused by it - just one is more extreme than the other.

My guess is that the flip has no real benefit apart from being more compact. After the unit turn, Macci wants immediate elbow extension and into "Pat the Dog" position at 5 o'clock. From that very limited takeback and consequent "Pat the Dog" position, I think the flip has to happen -- cannot avoid it.

Del Potro (no flip) has a bigger takeback than what Macci advocates and the option of not doing the flip... I think Macci says Brian Gordon has proven the /'ATP forehand " creates more RHS and topspin and is more efficient but do not know if that increased RHS is specifically a result of the flip. Does "ATP forehand" always require the flip?

Del Potro and Dmitrov eventually both get in the same position below. But the swings are very different in terms of employing or not employing the flip and hence one must choose which one to practice.

 

[ByeByePoly]

My guess is that the flip has no real benefit apart from being more compact. After the unit turn, Macci wants immediate elbow extension and into "Pat the Dog" position at 5 o'clock. From that ed takeback and consequent "Pat the Dog" position, I think the flip has to happen -- cannot avoid it.

Del Potro (no flip) has a bigger takeback than what Macci advocates and the option of not doing the flip... I think Macci says Brian Gordon has proven the /'ATP forehand " creates more RHS and topspin and is more efficient but do not know if that increased RHS is specifically a result of the flip. Does "ATP forehand" always require the flip?

Del Potro and Dmitrov eventually both get in the same position below. But the swings are very different in terms of employing or not employing the flip and hence one must choose which one to practice.

This gets into a definition of "flip". DP hits a flip based on my definition:

Flip:
In forward swing (including drop), racquet head swings in clockwise arc followed by counterclockwise arc into contact.

That seems like an easy useful definition. A typical WTA FH still isn't a flip, because any clockwise arc has happened at the top of the backswing before forward swing.

DP's clockwise arc is more vertical instead of horizontal ... and less than Dmitov's ... but there, imo.

Then again, I'm not the keeper of the "flip" definition lock box.

BTW ... are those video clips animated gifs? That is a very good way to discuss part of a video. Is the makeagif.com a free website?

 

[JCo872]

BTW ... are those video clips animated gifs? That is a very good way to discuss part of a video. Is the makeagif.com a free website?

Yeah - I'm curious as well. Very nice way to show video. Sure looks like makeagif...

 

[JohnYandell]

Suresh,
Gee I wonder who wrote it?

 

[5263]

(1) Del Potro: Racket face on edge... There is definitely racket lag but I do not see a flip.
(2) Dmitrov: Racket face momentarily points to the ground? Followed by flip?

It is confusing...Don't see how the lag/flip is a natural consequence of anything; it must be consciously worked on, IMO, depending on what hitting style one chooses to use.

That is the question from the OP and you addressed it extremely well. Great gifs. You show how you don't need the flip to have lag.

 

[Raul_SJ]

This gets into a definition of "flip". DP hits a flip based on my definition:
Flip:
In forward swing (including drop), racquet head swings in clockwise arc followed by counterclockwise arc into contact.
That seems like an easy useful definition. A typical WTA FH still isn't a flip, because any clockwise arc has happened at the top of the backswing before forward swing.
DP's clockwise arc is more vertical instead of horizontal ... and less than Dmitov's ... but there, imo.

I'm not clear on your definition of "flip". I was trying to understand flip based on previous posts of ESR/ISR... Perhaps you can point it out in the Del Potro gif (from makeagif.com free site).

(1) What frame # does forward swing begin? Is flip considered part of the forward swing?
(2) Approximate frame #'s where the "flip" is happening?
(3) Identify frames where ESR and ISR are occurring?

Previous posts on flip definition:

The lag is ISR->ESR from the FORWARD swing. WTA swing has that same ISR-ESR in the back swing.

To me, this pat the dog stuff is very imprecise. WTA swing does not have "pat the dog" because that requires ISR just before the forward swing to create the lag. For them, they are already in the ESR position when the forward swing begins. That opens the racket face.

The flip results from internal/external/internal rotation of the arm from the shoulder and the elbow. I use the terms pronation/supination/pronation generically because that best describes the hand positions throughout the swing.

It is primarily pronation/supination/pronation with minimal wrist extension and return to neutral. But, you don't purposely manipulate it. These are passive movements resulting from a proper set-up position, execution of the kinetic chain, and a loose, relaxed arm and grip.

 

[Raul_SJ]

You show how you don't need the flip to have lag.

Also note that after the unit turn, Macci method forces the student to go straight to fully extend elbow at around 5 o'clock position.

From that forced setup position, it may be that the flip naturally happens. That is the way it feels when I try it. No way to avoid the flip with Macci setup position.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm not clear on your definition of "flip". I was trying to understand flip based on previous posts of ESR/ISR... Perhaps you can point it out in the Del Potro gif (from makeagif.com free site).

(1) What frame # does forward swing begin? Is flip considered part of the forward swing?
(2) Approximate frame #'s where the "flip" is happening?
(3) Identify frames where ESR and ISR are occurring?

Previous posts on flip definition:

Edit: got my isrs and esrs backward below ... reverse them.

Awesome ... I will be visting makeagif in the near future. I gotta get me some makeagif.

I would say around 28 you see his forearm start to turn clockwise. Somebody else will have to say if that is shoulder(ISR) or forearm(supination). To me the point of defining the flip as ISR/supination in context of the forward swing is to exclude the typical WTA FH backswing. In those WTA backswings, any isr/supination happens in the full backswing position. You can't have a rapid isr/esr close together ... because the first half happened already at the top of the backswing.

To me ... DP is neither the typical WTA or the typical ATP pat the dog. DP drops from the top without pause and goes into the slot. Near the bottom the drop (28ish) ... looks like some ISR followed by ESR into contact. That sounds Flipish to me ... if the main point is ISR/ESR close together fairly late in the swing.

The Flip is a made up term ... so you could define it anyway you want. For sure @Limpinhitter probably requires ESR/ISR/ESR. He needs to see some racquet head pointing forward before the sequence starts. That's fine ... we could make up a term for DP's ISR/ESR. It's hard to make the case DP got short-changed on his FH because he missed that racquet head pointing forward part.

To me ... the main point is the late introduction of arm/racquet angle in the stroke, and not a definition purest test. Look at DP 35 ... that's late arm/racquet angle which provides the late hinge/pendulum release into contact. DP looks like all the rest from 35 on. What difference did the prep to get there matter? More stretched tendons? Maybe 6'6" guys need less max tendon stretching.

Just my thoughts. Like I said, I'm not the "Flip lockbox" keeper ... that's Prof @Limpinhitter. He will be along shortly to administer my well deserved flogging.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm not clear on your definition of "flip". I was trying to understand flip based on previous posts of ESR/ISR... Perhaps you can point it out in the Del Potro gif (from makeagif.com free site).

(1) What frame # does forward swing begin? Is flip considered part of the forward swing?
(2) Approximate frame #'s where the "flip" is happening?
(3) Identify frames where ESR and ISR are occurring?

Previous posts on flip definition:

Love this gif thing. It shows the two types of "release" to contact.

Check from 35 to 50:
1) wrist releases in flexion direction toward neutral wrist by contact.
2) racquet head rapidly travels along an arc into contact from it's ESR backward rotation position at 35 ... to catching back up by 50 due to ISR.

 

[5263]

The Flip is a made up term ... so you could define it anyway you want. For sure @Limpinhitter probably requires ESR/ISR/ESR. He needs to see some racquet head pointing forward before the sequence starts. That's fine ... we could make up a term for DP's ISR/ESR. It's hard to make the case DP got short-changed on his FH because he missed that racquet head pointing forward part.
He will be along shortly to administer my well deserved flogging.

Most all these tennis terms are just made up and the Flip is no different in that way really.

Imo its not that tough to make that case if you understand why they hit the Timing Enhanced ATP Fh. Imo you are regressing to the common mistake that this is about generating power. Imo Macci makes this mistake. These players can hit big 105 mph+ Fhs with WTA, Traditional, Delpo/Lendl over the top etc.... And don't think some rec player is going to get a mega Fh just from switching to a particular brand of take back if they couldn't hit pretty big before. He should learn to keep a few more in the court more often, but I doubt almost anyone will gain a lot of power by going to a different takeback unless they were just a horrible newbie who didn't really have a stroke to begin with...

 

[Raul_SJ]

Edit: got my isrs and esrs backward below ... reverse them.

.

At first glance I would agree that around Frame #28 is where ESR/Supination is starting.

ESR is commonly associated with forearm supination. ISR is commonly associated with forearm pronation. You might be mixing up the two.

Del Potro has a relatively compact motion. Lag but no flip. Does not fit the definition of ATP style as described by Christophe? Does not have the complications of Federer flip. Definitely worth emulating if it feels comfortable.

 

[ByeByePoly]

At first glance I would agree that around Frame #28 is where ESR/Supination is starting.

ESR is commonly associated with forearm supination. ISR is commonly associated with forearm pronation. You might be mixing up the two.

Yes ... I get the isr/esr backwards ... probably why my flips always hit FHs into back fence. I did have to make that supination move "actively with conscious effort" learning the flip. I do not buy into the argument "if you have your prep right it is automatic". I figure that might happen for some and not others... but all that matters is you end up with your flip in muscle memory at the end. I might still have some flip in my FH ... haven't videoed this year. I decided I didn't like the pat the dog thing. Mine would be more the DP type ... except 50 mph instead of 150 mph.

 

[ByeByePoly]

My guess is that the flip has no real benefit apart from being more compact. After the unit turn, Macci wants immediate elbow extension and into "Pat the Dog" position at 5 o'clock. From that very limited takeback and consequent "Pat the Dog" position, I think the flip has to happen -- cannot avoid it.

Del Potro (no flip) has a bigger takeback than what Macci advocates and the option of not doing the flip... I think Macci says Brian Gordon has proven the /'ATP forehand " creates more RHS and topspin and is more efficient but do not know if that increased RHS is specifically a result of the flip. Does "ATP forehand" always require the flip?

Del Potro and Dmitrov eventually both get in the same position below. But the swings are very different in terms of employing or not employing the flip and hence one must choose which one to practice.

This reminds me of this:

Check out this video on YouTube:

 

[5263]

At first glance I would agree that around Frame #28 is where ESR/Supination is starting.

ESR is commonly associated with forearm supination. ISR is commonly associated with forearm pronation. You might be mixing up the two.

Del Potro has a relatively compact motion. Lag but no flip

Maybe the better term would be the "swivel" for Feds move and the flip for delpo's? For delpo, Lendl and some others, the RH does sort of flip over the top, rotating up and over like with a flip. Fed's motion is more like a swivel with hand causing the racket to swivel around a point near the COM of the racket.

Imo a lot of players are missing the swivel action due to the name and Macci's presentation. If you miss the swivel action, you are missing a big advantage of the Enhanced Timing ATP swing.

 

[5263]

My guess is that the flip has no real benefit apart from being more compact. ......

Del Potro and Dmitrov eventually both get in the same position below. But the swings are very different in terms of employing or not employing the flip and hence one must choose which one to practice.

Yes, but isn't part of being compact via the swivel Flip, a key to having a responsive Fh, capable of reacting briskly to fast and rising balls? Isn't the key element to the Timing enhancement Atp Fh, that it can stay solid and aggressive in a broader array of situations?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes, but isn't part of being compact via the swivel Flip, a key to having a responsive Fh, capable of reacting briskly to fast and rising balls? Isn't the key element to the Timing enhancement Atp Fh, that it can stay solid and aggressive in a broader array of situations?

Doesn't Del Potro's FH (best on the planet) prove the swivel is never required... at any level.

 

[5263]

Doesn't Del Potro's FH (best on the planet) prove the swivel is never required... at any level.

Not in my book. How is his Fh the best?

 

[5263]

Doesn't Del Potro's FH (best on the planet) prove the swivel is never required... at any level.

but yes, you are right that the swivel is NOT required.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Most all these tennis terms are just made up and the Flip is no different in that way really.

Imo its not that tough to make that case if you understand why they hit the Timing Enhanced ATP Fh. Imo you are regressing to the common mistake that this is about generating power. Imo Macci makes this mistake. These players can hit big 105 mph+ Fhs with WTA, Traditional, Delpo/Lendl over the top etc.... And don't think some rec player is going to get a mega Fh just from switching to a particular brand of take back if they couldn't hit pretty big before. He should learn to keep a few more in the court more often, but I doubt almost anyone will gain a lot of power by going to a different takeback unless they were just a horrible newbie who didn't really have a stroke to begin with...

If you remember, I have agreed with you from the start that the ATP/swivel/flip doesn't create more pace than the WTA. I think it helps match the WTA pace from a shorter backswing. (Note: it is obviously shorter in terms of hand path. It would be interesting to compare the distance the racquet head travels in both ... might not be that different. The RH is busy in those swivels. ).

"I doubt almost anyone will gain a lot of power by going to a different takeback unless they were just a horrible newbie"

From my own recent gains in FH pace, it wasn't flip vs wta. It was full shoulder turn past hip line vs NOT. My biggest 59 year old FH with a full hip/shoulder turn WTAish backswing ... flat straight arm i/o (or dtl). The absolute worse is a flip fh with an abbreviated shoulder turn (can't generate enough rha from the shorter swing).

 

[5263]

(Note: it is obviously shorter in terms of hand path. It would be interesting to compare the distance the racquet head travels in both ... might not be that different. The RH is busy in those swivels. ).
.

I agree and think this is an interesting question I have pondered as well. Just tough to address for me.

 

[5263]

The absolute worse is a flip fh with an abbreviated shoulder turn (can't generate enough rha from the shorter swing).

I don't think the ATP requires less shoulder turn does it?

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don't think the ATP requires less shoulder turn does it?

No ... that was just a comment about my recent (last summer) discoveries trying to add FH pace. I probably have always played with less than full shoulder turn. I bet that is the case with 95+ % of rec players. I hit a bigger backswing FH, so even without full shoulder turn, the arm and racquet have some running room to create rhs. Take that same abbreviated shoulder turn with the shorter backswing swivel ... and it's very easy to get to contact without much rhs. That was my experience at least.

To me ... the "enhanced FH" is simply full shoulder turn past hips. From there, more than one type of high level FH. I bet if we went and looked at all big pro FHs ... wta and atp ... current and past ... they all would have the big shoulder hip separation. I wonder if we could find one big pro FH without it.

I've learned a lot here at ttw ... but nothing comes close in importance imo as that. It's the first tip I would give a beginner at my park courts. That ... and don't hit 1hbhs with a FH grip. Their elbow wouldn't last long enough to improve.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don't think the ATP requires less shoulder turn does it?

Looks like you won't be playing outdoor tennis Monday afternoon. Irma might make an appearance.

 

[5263]

No ... that was just a comment about my recent (last summer) discoveries trying to add FH pace. I probably have always played with less than full shoulder turn. I bet that is the case with 95+ % of rec players. I hit a bigger backswing FH, so even without full shoulder turn, the arm and racquet have some running room to create rhs. Take that same abbreviated shoulder turn with the shorter backswing swivel ... and it's very easy to get to contact without much rhs. That was my experience at least.

To me ... the "enhanced FH" is simply full shoulder turn past hips. From there, more than one type of high level FH. I bet if we went and looked at all big pro FHs ... wta and atp ... current and past ... they all would have the big shoulder hip separation. I wonder if we could find one big pro FH without it.

I've learned a lot here at ttw ... but nothing comes close in importance imo as that. It's the first tip I would give a beginner at my park courts. That ... and don't hit 1hbhs with a FH grip. Their elbow wouldn't last long enough to improve.

Well you and JY have this thought in common. He has posted many times about the importance of a big shoulder turn and I guess you will generally see it when they need to generate most of the pace. But this is an area where I tend to side more with the modern tennis perspective where while shoulder turn is used to one extent or another, but the much bigger key for big shots is the starting and tightening before contact of the arc of the swing to create the RHS.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well you and JY have this thought in common. He has posted many times about the importance of a big shoulder turn and I guess you will generally see it when they need to generate most of the pace. But this is an area where I tend to side more with the modern tennis perspective where while shoulder turn is used to one extent or another, but the much bigger key for big shots is the starting and tightening before contact of the arc of the swing to create the RHS.

"but the much bigger key for big shots is the starting and tightening before contact of the arc of the swing to create the RHS."

Not clear here what you mean. My guess is you mean pulling hand across near contact to add acceleration (RHS).

This is the way I see it reviewing atp and wta video:

At backswing.. all (Fed, Del Potro, Keys, Sharapova ....) have the shoulder seperation past hips.

All different FHs, but they have it in common along with being able to hit big FHs.

I haven't seen a pro hitting big pace FHs on neutral balls without the big shoulder/hip separation (even swivel FHs). I am open to video evidence of a player standarizing their swivel/flip FHs with smaller shoulder turn.

So if I look at the backswings of pros ... and hid the arms and racquets from view ... I expect to see similar stance , hip and shoulder positions.

With the swivel/flip FHs, the hand is not moved as far back in the backswing. The RHS from that shorter "hand back position" has to make up speed somehow. That "how" is the late release of forearm/racquet angle near contact. It's the same reason a little Sergio Garcia can hit a golf ball a mile (late forearm/club angle release near bottom of swing). Also, I bet if we go look at video, he has shoulder seperation passed his hips also.

So not sure what specifics you were referencing ... butt cap forward flip? or hand movement closer to contact accelerating arc of rh ... but I would just say swivel/flip requires 1) shoulder seperation AND 2) boosted RHS near contact.

We will debate/argue about the "how" the 2)booster happens ... but we all know some "boosting" is happening.

It's an interesting question with the swivel/flip
.. does shoulder/hip add more RHS or the late "boosting"? I will add a third ... I believe we add RHS with shoulder/arm muscling right at the start of the shoulder uncoiling. Don't know how to measure that ... figure you need all of it.

 

[5263]

At backswing.. all (Fed, Del Potro, Keys, Sharapova ....) have the shoulder seperation past hips.

All different FHs, but they have it in common along with being able to hit big FHs.

I haven't seen a pro hitting big pace FHs on neutral balls without the big shoulder/hip separation (even swivel FHs). I am open to video evidence of a player standarizing their swivel/flip FHs with smaller shoulder turn.
.......
.. does shoulder/hip add more RHS or the late "boosting"? I will add a third ... I believe we add RHS with shoulder/arm muscling right at the start of the shoulder uncoiling. Don't know how to measure that ... figure you need all of it.

I'm not saying Pros don't get big shoulder turn or they don't have the shld/hip separation because they often do. What I'm saying is that pros hit big power off many different incoming balls and they will vary the turn to suit their intent and the type of ball they receive. Shoulders and hips are more an issue of amplitude and need to be seen as a variable, not a given. Constant focus on the shoulder turn can tend to lead to snatching the racket from the slot, which will spoil the swing. Imo the key is to focus on proper racket accel technique. The real unit turn is coming out of the slot imo. The hips are driving the shoulders, arm and hand as a unit, dragging the racket to find alignment towards contact. Once great alignment and timing is assured as the hand nears the ball, then the hand starts to tighten the arc, leaving the unit and moving strongly across the body midline instead of continuing in the shoulder plane. This move coincides with the big accel we see right before contact and is the major key to consistent big shots.

Yes this is an outlying exaggeration to make a point, but here we can see with a faster incoming ball, Blake hits a screaming big Fh with limited hip and shoulder turn. I realize this isn't typical, but it still illustrates my point at the extreme edge. He adjust his coil amount to suit the incoming speed of the ball. This is part of why we see most players struggle against big serves...because they feel they need big shoulder turn. Imo, if players learn to modulate or adjust shoulder turn routinely based on the situation, then the adjustments for serves and receiving big Fhs will be much more intuitive and natural. The constant focus a big oversized turn is Imo quite unnecessary and will happen naturally or with mild input if this is taught properly from the start.