Reminder for anyone who still thinks courts are too slow, 6 out of the most important 9 HC events are played on medium-fast HC or close

[InsideOut900]

As of 2020 and 2021, we have 6 courts rated as medium-fast or very close to medium-fast (AO, Canada, Cincinatti, USO, Shanghai and the YEC) and 3 courts rated as slow or medium-slow (Indian Wells, Miami, Paris Masters).

In 2017, the YEC surface was changed from a surface with a CPI of 34 to a surface with a CPI of 41-42 (going from medium to medium-fast).
It stayed within 41-43 range during 2017-2019 and it was slowed down to a court with a CPI of 39, which is only one point below medium-fast.

The AO was played on a medium surface during 2018-2019 and medium-fast in 2017, 2020, 2021, with the 2021 edition having an official CPI of 50, which is rated as a category 5 (fast), though realistically it played more like a medium-fast.
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/australian-open-faster-courts-novak-djokovic-7187395/

The USO changed DecoTurf to Laykold and the speed gain was around 20 to 30%, going from medium to a medium-fast, with a CPI of 43, about as fast as AO 17
https://www.**************.org/tenn...-of-the-us-open-changes-with-the-new-surface/

Then we have Shanghai, with a CPI of 41-44, remaining a consistently medium-fast court over the years, Canada, which used to be medium, but was played on a medium-fast court in 2019 (the last played edition), as well as Cincinatti, which is rated as medium, with a CPI in the mid 30s (ranging from 34 to 38 over the years), but because of the high altitude, it plays like one of the fastest courts on the tour.
Some data about the ATP court speeds can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RfMnLhfEUnsQKa7aQNIyaPVnLI/edit#gid=878206752

So we have 5 events out of 8 majors HC events that are played on medium-fast HC or close (and out of the five, the YEC is only 1 rating point below medium-fast) and Cincinatti that is played on medium paced HC, but plays as fast as any of the medium-fast HCs.

If anyone can add data about the court speed of Wimbledon over the past decade, it would be a good contribution to the thread.

In simple terms, the ATP and ITF tried their best to make courts faster to a point where they outweight slower courts and by some margin.
Any talk about the courts being too slow falls in the "unreasonable" territory from my perspective and this has been true since 2017, but became irrefutable as of 2021.

 

[helterskelter]

There are hard courts that are slow. There are no hard courts that are fast. This is by your data.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

I wonder how trustworthy CPI is.

 

[InsideOut900]

There are hard courts that are slow. There are no hard courts that are fast. This is by your data.

Yes, category 5 courts are gone, though it's common knowledge why.

 

[skip1969]

If the trend is that hard courts are being made faster, then good. But the damage that has been done to the game is here to stay for a while. Surface tampering killed an entire playing style. It'll be a long time before that style can make a comeback.

 

[RaulRamirez]

I'm (mostly) okay with the tour as is in this respect.
Yes, we don't seem to have as many extreme specialists as we did 30 or more years ago, but that's not such a big factor to me. There are players who are bigger factors on clay than on other surfaces - just no Tomas Musters, if you will.

There is a definite difference between HC (the main surface, with some variations among hard courts) and clay, and while the grass season is short (if practical, another week or two, including an M1000 would be good), adjustments do have to be made to succeed on it.

 

[InsideOut900]

I wonder how trustworthy CPI is.

The actual court speed depends on air pressure and humidity, as well as the CPI (which is measured without external factors in the ecuation to my knowledge). This explains how Miami is the slowest HC on the tour, but there are years it has a higher CPI than Cinci, which is probably the fastest. That's due to low altitude and high humidity in Miami making the conditions much heavier.

But these are extreme cases, as the CPI more or less reflects how it plays for the other courts mentioned. The trend with speeding up of the courts should be clear by now, it was due and it happened.

 

[Russeljones]

This is just getting silly now.

 

[helterskelter]

Yes, category 5 courts are gone, though it's common knowledge why.

But some hard courts are category 1. That's the sort of thing people point to when they say that courts are too slow. I think it is fair that no hard courts be either category 1 or category 5. Clay courts can be category 1, but hard courts should be either 2, 3, or 4.

 

[ForehandRF]

We are discussing the courts, but how about the balls used ? Lighter or heavier, we knows that balls can make the difference when it comes to the pace of the game

 

[InsideOut900]

But some hard courts are category 1. That's the sort of thing people point to when they say that courts are too slow. I think it is fair that no hard courts be either category 1 or category 5. Clay courts can be category 1, but hard courts should be either 2, 3, or 4.

I only saw Indian Wells 2017 and 2018 being category 1 slow. And that's because the IW courts are high bouncing and lively, so the slower court keeps the conditions in check like in Madrid.

Should I get started on Paris Masters then, still being medium and in some years toward the faster side, even though we have Shanghai and YEC being played on medium-fast courts?

 

[StifleYourself]

I don't disagree with any of this, but something surprised me in your post. I live in Cincinnati and I would not say that playing in Mason, OH is playing at elevation. I looked it up, and Center Court at the Lindner Family Tennis Center is 758' (231m) above sea level. It's not like it's Madrid or Denver. As an aside, I have had a hit on one of the outer courts there but I couldn't tell you if it was fast or slow because I don't play well enough to feel the difference. It just felt like a nice hard court with a new surface.

 

[Jonesy]

Courts are not the only thing. The game is actually faster today than the supposed "faster" days.

 

[xFedal]

As of 2020 and 2021, we have 6 courts rated as medium-fast or very close to medium-fast (AO, Canada, Cincinatti, USO, Shanghai and the YEC) and 3 courts rated as slow or medium-slow (Indian Wells, Miami, Paris Masters).

In 2017, the YEC surface was changed from a surface with a CPI of 34 to a surface with a CPI of 41-42 (going from medium to medium-fast).
It stayed within 41-43 range during 2017-2019 and it was slowed down to a court with a CPI of 39, which is only one point below medium-fast.

The AO was played on a medium surface during 2018-2019 and medium-fast in 2017, 2020, 2021, with the 2021 edition having an official CPI of 50, which is rated as a category 5 (fast), though realistically it played more like a medium-fast.
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/australian-open-faster-courts-novak-djokovic-7187395/

The USO changed DecoTurf to Laykold and the speed gain was around 20 to 30%, going from medium to a medium-fast, with a CPI of 43, about as fast as AO 17
https://www.**************.org/tenn...-of-the-us-open-changes-with-the-new-surface/

Then we have Shanghai, with a CPI of 41-44, remaining a consistently medium-fast court over the years, Canada, which used to be medium, but was played on a medium-fast court in 2019 (the last played edition), as well as Cincinatti, which is rated as medium, with a CPI in the mid 30s (ranging from 34 to 38 over the years), but because of the high altitude, it plays like one of the fastest courts on the tour.
Some data about the ATP court speeds can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RfMnLhfEUnsQKa7aQNIyaPVnLI/edit#gid=878206752

So we have 5 events out of 8 majors HC events that are played on medium-fast HC or close (and out of the five, the YEC is only 1 rating point below medium-fast) and Cincinatti that is played on medium paced HC, but plays as fast as any of the medium-fast HCs.

If anyone can add data about the court speed of Wimbledon over the past decade, it would be a good contribution to the thread.

In simple terms, the ATP and ITF tried their best to make courts faster to a point where they outweight slower courts and by some margin.
Any talk about the courts being too slow falls in the "unreasonable" territory from my perspective and this has been true since 2017, but became irrefutable as of 2021.

AO is easily the fastest, Novak made 2019 AO look fast although by ur data it’s slower than 17,20,21 lol . This category 5 50 cpi Australian courts are very good and they should remain fast !!

 

[StifleYourself]

Courts are not the only thing. The game is actually faster today than the supposed "faster" days.

Of course the game is faster. Today's players are better athletes and their technique has advanced. Also, the shaped poly strings allow players to take huge cuts at the ball and keep it in the lines. But the court speed is the variable that changes from tournament to tournament.

 

[helterskelter]

I only saw Indian Wells 2017 and 2018 being category 1 slow. And that's because the IW courts are high bouncing and lively, so the slower court keeps the conditions in check like in Madrid.

Should I get started on Paris Masters then, still being medium and in some years toward the faster side, even though we have Shanghai and YEC being played on medium-fast courts?

Indoor hard courts used to be either medium-fast or fast. They have long been among the faster parts of the season.

Another point: it's important not to naturalize the scores given in order to categorize the courts. Someone (the ITF? ATP?) made a decision that, for example, 40 is where medium-fast begins. But it could be that 40 is not what was considered medium-fast back in the day, and rather that 45 is. Or 50. Or what have you. And that's even before we get into the question of the methodology by which the CPI is measured in the first place (e.g. how they come up with the figure of "40"). Are alternative measures of court speed possible, even if not actually available? I don't know but it seems plausible.

 

[xFedal]

As of 2020 and 2021, we have 6 courts rated as medium-fast or very close to medium-fast (AO, Canada, Cincinatti, USO, Shanghai and the YEC) and 3 courts rated as slow or medium-slow (Indian Wells, Miami, Paris Masters).

In 2017, the YEC surface was changed from a surface with a CPI of 34 to a surface with a CPI of 41-42 (going from medium to medium-fast).
It stayed within 41-43 range during 2017-2019 and it was slowed down to a court with a CPI of 39, which is only one point below medium-fast.

The AO was played on a medium surface during 2018-2019 and medium-fast in 2017, 2020, 2021, with the 2021 edition having an official CPI of 50, which is rated as a category 5 (fast), though realistically it played more like a medium-fast.
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/australian-open-faster-courts-novak-djokovic-7187395/

The USO changed DecoTurf to Laykold and the speed gain was around 20 to 30%, going from medium to a medium-fast, with a CPI of 43, about as fast as AO 17
https://www.**************.org/tenn...-of-the-us-open-changes-with-the-new-surface/

Then we have Shanghai, with a CPI of 41-44, remaining a consistently medium-fast court over the years, Canada, which used to be medium, but was played on a medium-fast court in 2019 (the last played edition), as well as Cincinatti, which is rated as medium, with a CPI in the mid 30s (ranging from 34 to 38 over the years), but because of the high altitude, it plays like one of the fastest courts on the tour.
Some data about the ATP court speeds can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RfMnLhfEUnsQKa7aQNIyaPVnLI/edit#gid=878206752

So we have 5 events out of 8 majors HC events that are played on medium-fast HC or close (and out of the five, the YEC is only 1 rating point below medium-fast) and Cincinatti that is played on medium paced HC, but plays as fast as any of the medium-fast HCs.

If anyone can add data about the court speed of Wimbledon over the past decade, it would be a good contribution to the thread.

In simple terms, the ATP and ITF tried their best to make courts faster to a point where they outweight slower courts and by some margin.
Any talk about the courts being too slow falls in the "unreasonable" territory from my perspective and this has been true since 2017, but became irrefutable as of 2021.

So Nole won the fastest Australian Opens and Wimbledons in the last decade ?

 

[jackson vile]

Great information!

 

[RS]

Fed fans tend to say the slow period was more like 2010-2016