Requesting More Objectivity Here

Very well said.

This really goes to my consistent argument about Federer v Novak and questions about who is really the better tennis player at their very best.

If six years older Federer played Novak this close and this well so far past his prime - also see wins in 2011 at RG and 2012 at WB when Novak was in peak age physiologically and Fed was already on the other side of his - then it is difficult to imagine that peak Fed would have done eceb better - having dominated Novak at slams in his peak years as well.
I think the other thing you got to factor in though is Djokovic level fluctuated in big slam finals.

Sometimes he played incredible godly tennis, sometimes decent and occasionally lay an egg. He could be inconsistent in them.

His level in that 2019 Wimbledon final wasn’t great. He was there for the taking but Fed mentally could finish the job.

It’s hard to judge when they both at best as it happened at different points in time and their peaks/primes weren’t same time. Both guys had off matches in slam finals too as they were human. Novak especially as mentioned generally had great ones but occasionally didn’t turn up or was sluggish in some.

Off matches can happen too and that was a bit off an off match for Novak despite the fact he won.

He was not even close to his 2014 Wimbledon final level in this match or 2018 Wimbledon level.
 
I don't know why this thread was required. Djokovic has the slam record and only objective thing is the record he holds. Subjective Titles are not objective. there's no GOAT, BOAT but the stats.
There has to be someone who was greatest or best even if only by very slight margin. Whether a person can accurately judge who is another thing

I think the other thing you got to factor in though is Djokovic level fluctuated in big slam finals.

Sometimes he played incredible godly tennis, sometimes decent and occasionally lay an egg. He could be inconsistent in them.

His level in that 2019 Wimbledon final wasn’t great. He was there for the taking but Fed mentally could finish the job.

It’s hard to judge when they both at best as it happened at different points in time and their peaks/primes weren’t same time. Both guys had off matches in slam finals too as they were human. Novak especially as mentioned generally had great ones but occasionally didn’t turn up or was sluggish in some.

Off matches can happen too and that was a bit off an off match for Novak despite the fact he won.

He was not even close to his 2014 Wimbledon final level in this match or 2018 Wimbledon level.
If I remember right 1st set was the tiebreak Federer had been the better player but just made mistakes for no reason a few points in tiebreak when Djokovic was just being consistent getting ball in play not hitting great shots. That was very frustrating, Federers level suddenly dropping at most important time. This is his #1 issue vs Djokovic his level drops when its tight and important, at least in his older age
 
There has to be someone who was greatest or best even if only by very slight margin. Whether a person can accurately judge who is another thing


If I remember right 1st set was the tiebreak Federer had been the better player but just made mistakes for no reason a few points in tiebreak when Djokovic was just being consistent getting ball in play not hitting great shots. That was very frustrating, Federers level suddenly dropping at most important time. This is his #1 issue vs Djokovic his level drops when its tight and important, at least in his older age
Yeah I agree. Federer was much the better player in my eyes but he wasn’t on the big points again. I don’t know how Djokovic won that much though.
 

Omega Mouse

Rookie
“Better” at what?

Better at winning the most slams? Novak, no doubt. “Math is math”.

Better at playing the best tennis one can play during their best years?

That’s different.

To me - that’s the GOAT. Who played the best tennis when they were at their best.

For my money - off clay - that’s Fed.

I’d take him at his peak, playing his very best, against any player except prime Rafa on clay.

Novak won the majority of his slams after he turned 28. That’s very odd and goes against the historical norm of when a player’s physiological peak is in tennis; the mid twenties.

I think this is because Novak could never dominate Federer until Federer was well diminished and far older than Novak. Even in Fed’s early post-prime years he could still beat peak Novak ( see RG ‘11 and WB’12 ).

Novak can win 50 more slams in his late 30s and 40s. It won’t change a thing for me.
Djokovic started beating Federer in slams in 2011. He owns Fed and Nadal in H2H rivalry. What you're saying makes no sense. Federer didn't lose to Novak because of his age. Federer was always in the match, but Djokovic found a way through him. Federer was mentally weak against Djokovic. Has nothing to do with age. I'm sorry reality doesn't change your mind. Quite stubborn.
 

Federev

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic started beating Federer in slams in 2011. He owns Fed and Nadal in H2H rivalry. What you're saying makes no sense. Federer didn't lose to Novak because of his age. Federer was always in the match, but Djokovic found a way through him. Federer was mentally weak against Djokovic. Has nothing to do with age. I'm sorry reality doesn't change your mind. Quite stubborn.

You’re overstating.

Why was Fed still able to beat Novak at RG in 2011 and WB in 2012? MPs at USO in ‘11?

Novak had to wait till Federer was diminishing to dominate him. That was 2014. Why?

Why wasn’t he beating Fed in slams from 2006-2009? Does Novak get a pass for age and Federer doesn’t?
 

Omega Mouse

Rookie
You’re overstating.

Why was Fed still able to beat Novak at RG in 2011 and WB in 2012? MPs at USO in ‘11?

Novak had to wait till Federer was diminishing to dominate him. That was 2014. Why?

Why wasn’t he beating Fed in slams from 2006-2009? Does Novak get a pass for age and Federer doesn’t?
Fed was in his prime while Djokovic was still finding his way. Sure, Fed got a few wins in... but besides your few examples, Djokovic owned Fed.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
You’re overstating.

Why was Fed still able to beat Novak at RG in 2011 and WB in 2012? MPs at USO in ‘11?

Novak had to wait till Federer was diminishing to dominate him. That was 2014. Why?

Why wasn’t he beating Fed in slams from 2006-2009? Does Novak get a pass for age and Federer doesn’t?
Obviously yes. But Djoker fans request for more objectively from other fan base
 
Last edited:

Omega Mouse

Rookie
Obviously no. But Djoker fans request for more objectively from other fan bas
Obviously no. But Djoker fans request for more objectively from other fan base
Federer was in his PRIME during this time. You expect an upcoming player to beat Federer in his PRIME? That's ridiculous. According to you, Federer was past his prime and just sucks after 2012 when Djokovic started dominating both Nadal and Fed. You said it, not me.
 

Federev

G.O.A.T.
Fed was in his prime while Djokovic was still finding his way. Sure, Fed got a few wins in... but besides your few examples, Djokovic owned Fed.

Novak did not start “owning” Fed at slams till 2014. Fed was nearly 33 years old at that time.

No one says Federer “sucked” after his prime. That’s an overstament. But by 2011-12 and onward Federer was not in his prime.
 

Razer

G.O.A.T.
Novak did not start “owning” Fed at slams till 2014. Fed was nearly 33 years old at that time.

No one says Federer “sucked” after his prime. That’s an overstament. But by 2011-12 and onward Federer was not in his prime.

2011-2012 was his prime

He lost because he was not facing Roddick and Baghdatis anymore.
 

Neptune

Hall of Fame
Novak did not start “owning” Fed at slams till 2014. Fed was nearly 33 years old at that time.

No one says Federer “sucked” after his prime. That’s an overstament. But by 2011-12 and onward Federer was not in his prime.
Nole-Fed 7-3 during 2011-12
 

Federev

G.O.A.T.
Nole-Fed 7-3 during 2011-12
Slams.

A 24ish year old GOAT at the height of his physiological peak should not be losing in four sets to a 30ish ATG at Wimbledon and Rolland Garros and barely scraping by down MPs at the USO. He should be dominating him. That’s not even close.

Meanwhile, do you really think peak Federer would do WORSE than this against Peakovic?

Not convincing.

Thus there is good evidence that Federer - at his very best - is a better tennis player than Novak at - at his very best. At least at RG, WB, and the USO.
 
Last edited:
Top