Respect for pusher please?

Z

zaph

Professional
One of the goto insults here is you're a 3.5 level pusher who has managed to beat other pushers.

Can we please break this down a bit? Has anyone here ever tried to beat a half decent pusher by pushing back? How did that go for you? I tried it, the match lasted about 10 hours and then I lost. The idea that beating a pusher by outlasted them is easy is laughable. Any player who can do that deserves respect because it means they are basically the king of the pushers. A wall to rival the great wall of China. The ultimate ball basher destroyer.

Honestly if you don't respect pushers, have a go at pushing, it isn't easy as it looks and beating another pusher with that style is some feat.
 
You never beat a pusher by pushing if you are not a pusher. You vary strokes, long and heavy, short and angled, low slices and jumpy topspin drives, going to the net to steal the recovery time of floaty balls... no pusher does almost any of this.

Pushers beat other pushers because at the end, one has to win. Either points go endless, and one of them starts taking some risks looking for winners and sends a ball too far or into the net, or just one has better physical endurance than the other. One thing that I have observed is that pushers also hate playing other pushers (matches, at least...) as they barely score "free" points in comparison with partners that try to play more varied tennis.

Becoming a pusher implies giving up on being creative, looking for better strokes (in the technical sense), and essentially going beyond "competition" in the strict sense of winning by putting one ball more in the other court than your opponent. For players that seek to conquer all aspects of the game, playing against pushers is just mentally frustrating.

The way I see it, the pushers should respect themselves by trying to get variety and "active intention" in their strokes and playing style instead of relying on unforced errors of the adversary.
 
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What bothers you @zaph it seems now like you try to inflate the the status of 3.5 pusher so that your reports of beating them get more appreciation?

3.5 pusher is what he is. Good enough to compete and get W at that level. Pisses players off - those who cannot beat them and those who beat them with suffer and pain.

Meanwhile, that guy defying techniques development and tactical patterns, which work better in tennis when competition gets stronger - doesn’t attract much respect.

What about you showing some respect to passionate crowd and stop pushing this idea of 3.5 pushers being some kind of solid core of tennis population, and how beating them is great achievement? Let’s call things as they are. It’s nothing special to discuss. Practice, get better, beat pushers - if you still don’t. If you do, focus on current challenging opposition, who serve with juice at you and make you pay for leaving balls short.
 
When I hear the term pusher, I think someone who is consistent and wins by allowing the opponent to make an error. This is a winning strategy at every level.

Unfortunately, I am not this style of player, and I make errors. I like variety and have fun hitting different shots. If you can be consistent w all your shots, then kudos.
 
I got no respect for pushers. They might beat me the first time. Then I beat them every time after. If it only takes me one match to figure out how to beat you maybe you're just not that good.
 
If you are a pusher you give up any future at improving beyond a low rec level for short term wins at a low rec level which is why they garner scorn. If you love winning meaningless low level matches, maybe this is the path for you. If I wanted to spend my time dinking balls back, I'd play pickleball.
 
if you mean pusher meaning you hit slow and bouncy shot, to win you simply do MEP and learn from that master and you will always win even if you only push.
 
bitcoinoperated said:
If you are a pusher you give up any future at improving beyond a low rec level for short term wins at a low rec level which is why they garner scorn.
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They garner scorn because they win a lot, especially against people who place a lot of emphasis on form over function.

If you love winning meaningless low level matches, maybe this is the path for you.
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Plenty of us love winning meaningless low-level matches, at least more than losing them. But what does that have to do with pushing?
 
I can settle this. Pushers are not real tennis players. The guys who lose to pushers are also not real tennis players, even if they think they are. They are both pickleballers who haven't realized it yet.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
They garner scorn because they win a lot, especially against people who place a lot of emphasis on form over function.



Plenty of us love winning meaningless low-level matches, at least more than losing them. But what does that have to do with pushing?
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I agree, the mentality here is nuts. Every match played by poster here is meaningless because non of the people here are good enough to play professionally.
 
Dragy said:
What bothers you @zaph it seems now like you try to inflate the the status of 3.5 pusher so that your reports of beating them get more appreciation?

3.5 pusher is what he is. Good enough to compete and get W at that level. Pisses players off - those who cannot beat them and those who beat them with suffer and pain.

Meanwhile, that guy defying techniques development and tactical patterns, which work better in tennis when competition gets stronger - doesn’t attract much respect.

What about you showing some respect to passionate crowd and stop pushing this idea of 3.5 pushers being some kind of solid core of tennis population, and how beating them is great achievement? Let’s call things as they are. It’s nothing special to discuss. Practice, get better, beat pushers - if you still don’t. If you do, focus on current challenging opposition, who serve with juice at you and make you pay for leaving balls short.
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I'll never be a pusher myself. I think It's totally fine to push and win at any level. I have zero disrespect for any defensive focused winning style. I admire smart humble highly skillful pushers like MEP. My favorite hitting partner is a 4.0 pusher.

No one can force me to love mediocre pushers with inflated ego at 3.0-3.5 level.
 
for me, if I notice my opponent is 4.0 or lower and loves to hit hard (you can usually find them in most rec ladder), high level underspin pushing (to me it is like a fake dropshot not really pushing but for the point of this thread let's call it pushing) is the easiest and the most energy saving way to win, esp those people who are tall, a junk ball, a slow bouncing ball makes so many mistakes (hitting the net) almost gauranteed. It is not to say I can't play my usual style but if I play my usual style, there wouldn't be any normal rallies anyway, most of them get crushed after 3 balls back and forth (can't handle the pace), that is assuming they can return the serve first.

Can't do that to 4.5+ consistently, but most 4.5 will make the same mistake probably 30-40% of the time, esp after serve return. :p I troll people all the time and win most of matches this way.

I play my usual once I hit with someone better or someone who also pushes but those who push will met with more topspin from me and/or winner angle shots and they usually can't even reach the ball after my hit lol

So yea, I respect my pusher brothers, but if they don't have any more options then they are sitting duck.
 
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pencilcheck said:
for me, if I notice my opponent is 4.0 or lower and loves to hit hard (you can usually find them in most rec ladder), high level underspin pushing (to me it is like a fake dropshot not really pushing but for the point of this thread let's call it pushing) is the easiest and the most energy saving way to win, esp those people who are tall, a junk ball, a slow bouncing ball makes so many mistakes (hitting the net) almost gauranteed. It is not to say I can't play my usual style but if I play my usual style, there wouldn't be any normal rallies anyway, most of them get crushed after 3 balls back and forth (can't handle the pace), that is assuming they can return the serve first.

Can't do that to 4.5+ consistently, but most 4.5 will make the same mistake probably 30-40% of the time, esp after serve return. :p I troll people all the time and win most of matches this way.

I play my usual once I hit with someone better or someone who also pushes but those who push will met with more topspin from me and/or winner angle shots and they usually can't even reach the ball after my hit lol

So yea, I respect my pusher brothers, but if they don't have any more options then they are sitting duck.
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What’s your computer ranking again?
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
They garner scorn because they win a lot...
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Fed, Nadal, Djoker, Carlos, Messi, Ronaldo, Wood, garnered scorn because they won a lot????
Your argument is a brain shot dud.

Imo, folks who win a lot get huge respect and fans.

3.5 lifelong pushers get scorn because they get beaten by countless players who grow beyond 3.5 level in a few years and these pushers are stuck forever.

And more significantly they don't add value to grow the tennis level and only in it for themselves. If pushers learnt modern technique, we will have high quality tennis even at lower levels. (Since only winners move up, we will have plenty of great shot makers at 3 and 3.5 level)
 
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pencilcheck said:
how is it has to do with what I wrote? i notice you always ask me this question, i guess you really are jelly.
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Imo, he asks because what you write appears junk and mostly without merit. So would be good to know if there is an authentic tennis brain behind what appears to be trash statements.
 
pencilcheck said:
how is it has to do with what I wrote? i notice you always ask me this question, i guess you really are jelly.
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I ask you because you wrote how you face 4.0 players and beat them by turning into junkball pusher mode. I wonder what you level is. I cannot remember you ever disclosing that, or maybe I missed it.

We have MEP who does it against 4.0 and some 4.5 players. But he’s honing it as his dominant style, and supports by great movement and court coverage. Definitely not “low energy” approach.

I see how fit 5.0 player with great touch may do it to 4.0 player. For most 4.5 players, who don’t live on that style, it would be dropping their level against 4.0, and likely not easier win than just sticking to their A-game.

What’s your level that you beat 4.0 players easily by junkballing? Or was that some kind of extrapolation of couple of hits, to bring more colors into discussion?
 
AnyPUG said:
Imo, he asks because what you write appears junk and mostly without merit. So would be good to know if there is an authentic tennis brain behind what appears to be trash statements.
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oh, if you can't even tell what i'm saying is true, then that just means the level of the viewer isn't high enough.

but I guess we are in TTW, and you are right, I can't assume the viewer's level, I would suggest those who don't understand the post ask their coaches why as those are 101 stuff, there is a reason most players have trouble hitting pusher shots or slower bouncing shots (that has no pace and they are far away in the baseline) in matches, usually those technical issues goes away the higher level you go.

for those who aren't at the level to judge, just know that if you have trouble with pusher, and you don't want to change your ATP forehand/backhand, then I suggest for a long hanging fruit, try pushing and see what happens to the other players, don't be afraid of pushing back, just think of it as an experiment, see what they can do and what you can do for your pushing shot. There is a reason MEP is 4.5 since he took that pushing shot and add underspin + control to it and it worked well for him.

If you don't want that, then I would suggest focus more on footwork, and be aware that the biggest enemy is not your opponent, but the net. so always try to hit a bit higher and you should have no trouble worrying about the shot going into the net.
 
Dragy said:
I ask you because you wrote how you face 4.0 players and beat them by turning into junkball pusher mode. I wonder what you level is. I cannot remember you ever disclosing that, or maybe I missed it.

We have MEP who does it against 4.0 and some 4.5 players. But he’s honing it as his dominant style, and supports by great movement and court coverage. Definitely not “low energy” approach.

I see how fit 5.0 player with great touch may do it to 4.0 player. For most 4.5 players, who don’t live on that style, it would be dropping their level against 4.0, and likely not easier win than just sticking to their A-game.

What’s your level that you beat 4.0 players easily by junkballing? Or was that some kind of extrapolation of couple of hits, to bring more colors into discussion?
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Dragy, there is this big secret in tennis that no one really talked about. it is an unwritten rule, when tennis ball doesn't have pace on it, you need to add your own pace, and when there is a tennis net in front of you, you need to add spin but you can't add spin if the contact point is low or if the ball is dropping.

Basically what I am saying is that, if you stick with those knowledge, the idea is simply forcing your opponent to always hit on the fall instead. Make the ball fall, and make them come and hit at the low point (this is actually not necessarily needed as a lot of high level players struggle with high contact point but ball is falling), gauranteed those ball will land at the net for lower ranked players (or rarely a winner because the ball didn't fall enough but that is easy to counter for higher level players if they are close to the ball).

And this is where most tall people would fall into this trap more easily, since a lot of them don't want to stay low and they will stay upright when hitting.

Have you noticed in a lot of tennis videos, that lower ranked players usually respond slices with slices, but high level players, would respond with topspin regardless of wings? That is the secret.


MEP would know this and start slicing up since he can't generate that power and spin and his knee or body would fall apart doing so, so against him a higher level player would just be ready at the net and do a quick put away or if not enough time, do a passing shot which should be bread and butter for those players anyway.

When MEP is playing against the 12 year old, the reason a lot of his usual shots didn't work on that little dude is because that little dude has fundamentals and is "short". So a lot of low contact strategy that MEP employed didn't work. Instead what MEP should've done, is to do a lob to push back the little dude, and then drop shot to force a lower reach. Then he would be able to play the style again.


So in other words, you don't need to be 5.0 to beat other 4.5. Just knowing this knowledge is enough to win a vast majority of the players.
 
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pencilcheck said:
Dragy, there is this big secret in tennis that no one really talked about. it is an unwritten rule, when tennis ball doesn't have pace on it, you need to add your own pace, and when there is a tennis net in front of you, you need to add spin but you can't add spin if the contact point is low or if the ball is dropping.
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Wat? :oops:

1. That's why you get these replies. You CAN spin and shape low ball. And you can easily practice hitting no pace balls, including low balls, off hand feeds. Classic Spanish X-drill teaches player to deal with no-pace balls very well.
2. You can spin falling balls, actually falling balls are easier to add topspin in response.

What you describe just doesn't happen. There are some extremely defensive players at 4.0, who can run down everything and return balls deep or to some uncomfortable spots. The issue with them is need to"win" the point several time. And also sets getting so long, lesser fit players just gas out and cannot close the match.
There's no such thing as you switching to junk and your 4.0 opponent falling apart. Unless you are true 4.5 proficient junkballer.

What may happen, is 4.0 having troubles initially, but most adult players on that level are smart and experienced enough to adjust and start winning. There is no such junk that you just switch to and consistently make your opponent unable to take control of the point. Most likely, anything "safe" enough you pull out is sitting there to attack, and ranked players with actual league match experience figure out how to deal with it in couple of games. They've seen it all and mostly got past it ascending from 3.5
 
pencilcheck said:
Dragy, there is this big secret in tennis that no one really talked about. it is an unwritten rule, when tennis ball doesn't have pace on it, you need to add your own pace, and when there is a tennis net in front of you, you need to add spin but you can't add spin if the contact point is low or if the ball is dropping.

Basically what I am saying is that, if you stick with those knowledge, the idea is simply forcing your opponent to always hit on the fall instead. Make the ball fall, and make them come and hit at the low point (this is actually not necessarily needed as a lot of high level players struggle with high contact point but ball is falling), gauranteed those ball will land at the net for lower ranked players (or rarely a winner because the ball didn't fall enough but that is easy to counter for higher level players if they are close to the ball).

And this is where most tall people would fall into this trap more easily, since a lot of them don't want to stay low and they will stay upright when hitting.

Have you noticed in a lot of tennis videos, that lower ranked players usually respond slices with slices, but high level players, would respond with topspin regardless of wings? That is the secret.


MEP would know this and start slicing up since he can't generate that power and spin and his knee or body would fall apart doing so, so against him a higher level player would just be ready at the net and do a quick put away or if not enough time, do a passing shot which should be bread and butter for those players anyway.

When MEP is playing against the 12 year old, the reason a lot of his usual shots didn't work on that little dude is because that little dude has fundamentals and is "short". So a lot of low contact strategy that MEP employed didn't work. Instead what MEP should've done, is to do a lob to push back the little dude, and then drop shot to force a lower reach. Then he would be able to play the style again.


So in other words, you don't need to be 5.0 to beat other 4.5. Just knowing this knowledge is enough to win a vast majority of the players.
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In matches though with off speed stuff I have seen rallies where even Novak is forced to bide his time before finding an opening. It is not a given that he can always hit a top spin shot. The rule of thumb seems to be patience and attacking when the opportunity presents itself.
 
Dragy said:
Wat? :oops:

1. That's why you get these replies. You CAN spin and shape low ball. And you can easily practice hitting no pace balls, including low balls, off hand feeds. Classic Spanish X-drill teaches player to deal with no-pace balls very well.
2. You can spin falling balls, actually falling balls are easier to add topspin in response.

What you describe just doesn't happen. There are some extremely defensive players at 4.0, who can run down everything and return balls deep or to some uncomfortable spots. The issue with them is need to"win" the point several time. And also sets getting so long, lesser fit players just gas out and cannot close the match.
There's no such thing as you swutching to junk and your 4.0 opponent falling apart. Unless you are true 4.5 proficient junkballer.

What may happen, is 4.0 having troubles initially, but most adult players on that level are smart and experienced enough to adjust and start winning. There is no such junk that you just switch to and consistently make your opponent unable to take control of the point. Most likely, anything "safe" enough you pull out is sitting there to attack, and ranked players with actual league match experience figure out how to deal with it in couple of games. They've seen it all and mostly got past it ascending from 3.5
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The real world evidence shows otherwise. Yes, you can spin and shape low ball (even when rushing forward) but those are the definition of high level players if you can pull that off 100% of the time. Practicing no pace ball and low ball doesn't guarantee you will consistently hit those at match play if you don't have the right stroke and fitness.

You mentioned spanish drill, how many people (let along coaches) know about and is actually practicing? And btw, practicing those drill didn't mean people will get better overnight just because they are practicing it.

Spin falling ball is easier to add topspin yes, but the trick is to get over the net, which is the point of this strategy. IF they instead hit slice or lob, those ball gaurantee go over the net a lot more often the trick is to fool them thinking they need to add topspin when it is not since they are not at the level.

What I describe happen all the time. Anyone can run down the ball at any level, regardless of 4.0 and if they catch before the ball falling too much they can always get the ball back. If you don't believe me, try replicate what I said with 3 of your friends/hitting partner, and 3 strangers and observe how many of them who hit topspin actually go over the net consistently (given that the ball fall a lot and is low contact point and ideally the ball is in no man's land and is closer to the net and they are ideally running high speed towards it).

Set actually wouldn't get longer if you understand this principle, as long as you understand and execute this shot at the right time, it actually goes shorter. The best opportunities to execute this are 1) Serve return 2) After a high moonball or a rally

Also you mentioned people adjusting to it, and that is why this strategy is awesome, think about it, now they have to worry about this falling down ball, if they adjusted that means they stop hitting topspin ball and start volleying or slices, then the best way to counter that is to start hitting topspin ball again, then they will get messed up since they need to re-adjust to the old style again, then once they get adjusted to topspin, just go back to the strategy to force them to hit on the fall again lol.
 
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mcs1970 said:
In matches though with off speed stuff I have seen rallies where even Novak is forced to bide his time before finding an opening. It is not a given that he can always hit a top spin shot. The rule of thumb seems to be patience and attacking when the opportunity presents itself.
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yea, at the highest level ATP, the reason Federer, Nadal are so dominant, is due to their understanding of how to deal with low and high ball constantly, and their opponent just can't adjust to it right away. Djokovic to be honest, is an abnormality as he is so flexible. He can usually generate the same shot regardless of height, pace and spin of the incoming ball and even on stretch and on the run!. He basically brute forcing the entire thing, a rubber man lol
 
pencilcheck said:
The real world evidence shows otherwise.
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What real world evidence? At what level of play? What ranked matches you play and successfully apply what you stated you personally do to 4.0s?

I play in a group of ~300 players, most of which are 3.5-4.5, as far as I can judge. We are definitely not higher apart from top ones, who mostly compete in their own bracket. So within this crowd, among pasionate rec players, mostly adult learners, there are junkers. Some of them do ok - like 50/50 winrate. They are fit and resilient, persistent. They are not killing anyone decent by just slicing. Even they. Others who opt for junkballs ocasionally - they may save a point here and there, recover their position, but once opponent gets focused, weak balls get exposed to create advantage. Not put away immediately - no - but precisely spun with good placement. That's how we solid core of our crowd play - again, I don't know exact level. You have great advantage, because you can actually have NTRP or UTR rating and know your level. But you don't want to share it :unsure:
 
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pencilcheck said:
if they adjusted that means they stop hitting topspin ball and start volleying or slices
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Lol no, they start anticipating it, moving their feet accordingly, staying low, dropping racquet head under the ball - and most important, choosing targets too put you on the ropes.
 
pencilcheck said:
yea, at the highest level ATP, the reason Federer, Nadal are so dominant, is due to their understanding of how to deal with low and high ball constantly, and their opponent just can't adjust to it right away. Djokovic to be honest, is an abnormality as he is so flexible. He can usually generate the same shot regardless of height, pace and spin of the incoming ball and even on stretch and on the run!. He basically brute forcing the entire thing, a rubber man lol
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I have to find the clips but what I am saying is that Novak also has adjusted his shots if the opponent is giving him no pace. He doesn’t just blow them off the court with the same shots.
 
Dragy said:
What real world evidence? At what level of play? What ranked matches you play and successfully apply what you stated you personally do to 4.0s?

I play in a group of ~300 players, most of which are 3.5-4.5, as far as I can judge. We are definitely not higher apart from top ones, who mostly compete in their own bracket. So within this crowd, among pasionate rec players, mostly adult learners, there are junkers. Some of them do ok - like 50/50 winrate. They are fit and resilient, persistent. They are not killing anyone decent by just slicing. Even they. Others who opt for junkballs ocasionally - they may save a point here and there, recover their position, but once opponent gets focused, weak balls get exposed to create advantage. Not put away immediately - now - but precisely spun with good placement. That's how we solid core of our crowd play - again, I don't know exact level. You have great advantage, because you can actually have NTRP or UTR rating and know your level. But you don't want to share it :unsure:
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i'm talking about a very specific shot, if you want to just hand wave and call it junk ball then I can't really help you. Junk balls are just a term that people uses to hide the actual variety of shots in there that are actually useful in a match play scenarios. People can call drop shot a junk ball, they can call a lob a junk ball, they can call a slice shot that just simply bounce a bit side way a junk ball.

Instead of answering your question of level so many times by now, how about you try to understand what I'm saying before jumping to a conclusion of your own. This trick has nothing to do with level I hope you notice by now, it is simply the truth of how ball bounce, gravity and acceleration, and how people hit, center of gravity and balance.

If you have trouble understanding it is ok, just ask what you don't understand.
 
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Dragy said:
Lol no, they start anticipating it, moving their feet accordingly, staying low, dropping racquet head under the ball - and most important, choosing targets too put you on the ropes.
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I think you are thinking about something else completely different. I think you are thinking about the typical drop shot in a rally, or a normal defensive slice. I'm not talking about them. What I am talking about even if they anticipated it, if they don't know how to hit those shots they will always hit the net.
 
pencilcheck said:
i'm talking about a very specific shot, if you want to just hand wave and call it junk ball then I can't really help you. Junk balls are just a term that people uses to hide the actual variety of shots in there that are actually useful in a match play scenarios. People can call drop shot a junk ball, they can call a lob a junk ball, they can call a slice shot that just simply bounce a bit side way a junk ball.

Instead of answering your question of level so many times by now, how about you try to understand what I'm saying before jumping to a conclusion of your own. This trick has nothing to do with level I hope you notice by now, it is simply the truth of how ball bounce, and how people hit, center of gravity and balance.

If you have trouble understanding it is ok, just ask what you don't understand.
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Pencil. I think the skepticism is because you were bragging how you can easily dispatch 4.0 level pushers with some high level pushing of your own or crush them in 3 shots with sheer pace by playing your usual style.

4,0 could be someone who just got there or close to a 4.5. Even for the former they are not going to be easy pickings for a 4.5 rec player. Yes the final score might be lopsided but it is not like they will be blown away in 3 shots or less. The higher player usually has to adapt and play smart and judiciously wait for their opening.

So that’s why there was a question about your level. If you are a high 5.5 or 6.0 who can easily dispatch a 4.0. A 4.0 is a good solid player with consistent strokes.
 
pencilcheck said:
If you have trouble understanding it is ok, just ask what you don't understand.
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I just haven’t seen it in real life the way you describe it. No effort, just bunt-slice it, but it doesn’t bounce and no one (no level matters) cannot hit topspin off such ball.

Seems you invented something new, which is going to break tennis completely. And we have no pickleball here, just some paddle.. Dunno what to do now as tennis is about to die to no-bounce pushers

Ok, I’m just clowning around now. Signing off
 
Dragy said:
I just haven’t seen it in real life the way you describe it. No effort, just bunt-slice it, but it doesn’t bounce and no one (no level matters) cannot hit topspin off such ball.

Seems you invented something new, which is going to break tennis completely. And we have no pickleball here, just some paddle.. Dunno what to do now as tennis is about to die to no-bounce pushers

Ok, I’m just clowning around now. Signing off
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Just like in one of the videos that Karue (or another youtuber I forgot) said about how drop shot is all about the timing, not in the quantity or quality. It is the same here, even though the speed, drop is important, it is more important that you execute it at the right time and place in the match, as the core idea is to play the mind games to manipulate the player to act or hit certain way to win.

MEP manipulated his opponent to always hit slice back to him, he win matches that way. I'm just talking about a slightly different strategy.

if you think tennis is broken because of this, you will be surprised... :P

Also if those players can adapt and hit winners of those shots consistently, then they are not low level players. Those are high level players.
 
zaph said:
One of the goto insults here is you're a 3.5 level pusher who has managed to beat other pushers.

Can we please break this down a bit? Has anyone here ever tried to beat a half decent pusher by pushing back? How did that go for you? I tried it, the match lasted about 10 hours and then I lost. The idea that beating a pusher by outlasted them is easy is laughable. Any player who can do that deserves respect because it means they are basically the king of the pushers. A wall to rival the great wall of China. The ultimate ball basher destroyer.

Honestly if you don't respect pushers, have a go at pushing, it isn't easy as it looks and beating another pusher with that style is some feat.
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How many pushers can win by ball bashing??
 
Pusher’s can be beat by pushing and then going for a smart but aggressive shot. If I play a pusher I will moon ball it back till they leave one short enough to attack. It only works if they are such a “pusher” they can’t approach. But I’m never gonna just push back a short ball they give me and back peddle to the curtains.
 
Btw, tennis is not broken with this shot, it is just an exploit of a lack of fundamentals in lower skilled players that's all, MEP is actually making the fall shot that I mentioned in this video:


You see him keep making ball drop a lot and force his opponent to move and hit up at low contact point. So she is forced to hit winners all the time, and then all MEP needs to do is to catch them and lob back and repeat.

Keep in mind his opponent is actually good, like D1 recruit, even those players have issues with those, now imagine facing off the typical 3.5 and 4.0 that you mentioned.

You described those lower skilled players like they are gods, almost like if they adapt they will start hitting winners, and win the match, when the truth is that that is the fallacy (big secret among higher skilled players I mentioned) of lower skilled players, that's why they are low skilled.
 
I don't lose to pushers. Often lose to evolved pushers.

I lost multiple times against a moonballer who also had an all court game. We had a limited session time and I d always lose by pressing too much at the end.

Ash my nemesis is better than me at providing an endless set of awkward balls then finishing at net. He s hyper fit so normally beatsme narrowly by exposing my poorshape

Sorry bit sick. Point I m making is I don't think many true pushers exist. Look at the second point of my match with Curious. He hit a short FH slice. Smart play. Low risk and because of the angles impossible to get to.
 
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pencilcheck said:
Dragy, there is this big secret in tennis that no one really talked about. it is an unwritten rule, when tennis ball doesn't have pace on it, you need to add your own pace, and when there is a tennis net in front of you, you need to add spin but you can't add spin if the contact point is low or if the ball is dropping.

Basically what I am saying is that, if you stick with those knowledge, the idea is simply forcing your opponent to always hit on the fall instead. Make the ball fall, and make them come and hit at the low point (this is actually not necessarily needed as a lot of high level players struggle with high contact point but ball is falling), gauranteed those ball will land at the net for lower ranked players (or rarely a winner because the ball didn't fall enough but that is easy to counter for higher level players if they are close to the ball).

And this is where most tall people would fall into this trap more easily, since a lot of them don't want to stay low and they will stay upright when hitting.

Have you noticed in a lot of tennis videos, that lower ranked players usually respond slices with slices, but high level players, would respond with topspin regardless of wings? That is the secret.


MEP would know this and start slicing up since he can't generate that power and spin and his knee or body would fall apart doing so, so against him a higher level player would just be ready at the net and do a quick put away or if not enough time, do a passing shot which should be bread and butter for those players anyway.

When MEP is playing against the 12 year old, the reason a lot of his usual shots didn't work on that little dude is because that little dude has fundamentals and is "short". So a lot of low contact strategy that MEP employed didn't work. Instead what MEP should've done, is to do a lob to push back the little dude, and then drop shot to force a lower reach. Then he would be able to play the style again.


So in other words, you don't need to be 5.0 to beat other 4.5. Just knowing this knowledge is enough to win a vast majority of the players.
Click to expand...
You can't add spin if the contact is low or the ball is dropping? Huh?
 
pencilcheck said:
if you read my response later i explained what I mean by that. the point is that lower skilled player can't add those spin, nor enough to get over the net and yes you read me right.
Click to expand...

Well then they are losing because they are lower skilled, not because the other player is a pusher.
 
AnyPUG said:
3.5 lifelong pushers get scorn because they get beaten by countless players who grow beyond 3.5 level in a few years and these pushers are stuck forever.
Click to expand...

I would guess, with no supporting evidence, that most of the scorn comes from those who lost. If someone wins, why even bother expending the energy to scorn a lower-level player?

And more significantly they don't add value to grow the tennis level and only in it for themselves.
Click to expand...

What rec player is in it for someone other than themselves? And what does that have to do with pushing?

If pushers learnt modern technique, we will have high quality tennis even at lower levels. (Since only winners move up, we will have plenty of great shot makers at 3 and 3.5 level)
Click to expand...

That's questionable.

Anyways, I like variety: I'd rather face more styles rather than fewer.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
If you can routinely beat 4.5s, you are not a 4.5; you are something higher, secret knowledge [or lack thereof] notwithstanding.
Click to expand...
tennis is a knowledge based sport, knowing a lot of things technically makes you a better player in levels and consistency. In my opinion, all levels below 5.0 are all determined by their exploits knowledge. I think fitness, nor about racquets and strings and stuff are really the determining factors.

Of course the higher you go, the more fitness would matter more but in the level range that we are talking beginner-5.0, are mostly knowledge, personally I believe 4.5+ would benefit more with fitness but the benefits decreases as you go up because at the top, fitness is a norm.

also beating 4.5s doesn't necessarily mean you need to be already a 4.5 or 5.0 to beat, if that's the case, then there is no way someone from ATP ranking 1000x can ever goes up over time and beat better players as based on your reasoning, this is a paradox. you always start somewhere small, such as small exploits (relatively level speaking) and then work your way up to more and more.
 
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