Retro Serve
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I guess you've never heard of square brackets?
[quote='Stroke]If you do decide to take Pat up on his bet, I would suggest you make sure a poster that goes by the moniker of "bottle" is on said panel. He has been in a spirited discussion with a very knowledgeable contributor, Jeff Counts, on John Yandell's tennisplayer site, and I am virtually certain you two would really hit it off.[/quote]
oh is that what you think?
Tell me this then, when he says 'maintain this axis' and the axis is completely wrong, how else could it be interpreted?
I'm not like Bottle, I back my arguments up by showing pictures of professional players and by citing the research of others, in other words: on scientific principles, as opposed to writing a random piece of purple prose.
I Herebye challenge Pat to a dance off, each of us puts in $10000, winner take all!
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He does mean the vertical axis.
Notice how he moved his hand up and down?
Up and down=horizontal?
What is this? Bizzaro World?
Besides throughout the entire video he emphasizes the twisting in the core of the body.
This is twisting around the vertical axis, maintaining a vertical axis while twisting, similar to a helix or a spring.
As you said, the shoulders are the horizontal axis,
So how are you changing the vertical axis?
Use your brain.
But this time don't use the part that makes you a d-bag to people.
The foot up concept makes complete sense to me.
Your upper body (I'm referring to a right-handed player) turns clockwise when serving.
By "footing up", you're bringing your legs counter-clockwise.
By turning in opposite directions you are 'winding up the spring'.
I actually found this video helpful in my flat and slice serves, though I find it easier to keep my balance using the platform when hitting a kick.
Notice how he moved his hand up and down?
Up and down=horizontal?
What is this? Bizzaro World?
Besides throughout the entire video he emphasizes the twisting in the core of the body.
This is twisting around the vertical axis, maintaining a vertical axis while twisting, similar to a helix or a spring.
As you said, the shoulders are the horizontal axis,
So how are you changing the vertical axis?
Use your brain.
But this time don't use the part that makes you a d-bag to people.
The foot up concept makes complete sense to me.
Your upper body (I'm referring to a right-handed player) turns clockwise when serving.
By "footing up", you're bringing your legs counter-clockwise.
By turning in opposite directions you are 'winding up the spring'.
I actually found this video helpful in my flat and slice serves, though I find it easier to keep my balance using the platform when hitting a kick.
A.Davidson
Semi-Pro
Well said, Be Happy.
Be Happy...For what it's worth....I've spent a great deal of time working with "the serve doctor" over the past several years. With his help, I've probably added close to 30 MPH on my serve (I have my own radar gun). Prior to my first visit with Pat, I was barely cracking 100mph on my first serve. Now, just a few years later....I'm knocking on the door of 130 mph....(For skeptics out there, I was part of the 2004 5.0 team that won the National Championships in Palm Springs).
I was a baseball player in college....a pitcher. The Serve Doctor essentially helped me redirect my throwing mechanics to the contact point (upward plane as opposed to horizontal). For those of you familiar with the Sonic Serve video, I'm referring to the "set to launch" position. By incorporating my full throwing mechanics into a controlled ("in the cylinder" another Sonic Serve reference) upward direction, I've developed huge heat. I've also developed some pretty agressive spin serves.
Here is a test....If you think you have a good kick serve try the following...place a gatorade bottle 6 feet from the net on the ad court singles sideline. Serving from the ad court....see how many times you can hit the gatorade bottle....It will take some of you weeks before you can hit the target even once. You need a tremendous amount of spin to hit such an agressive target. Again, this part of the service box has been opened to me as a result of the Serve Doctor.
The retro serve technique is trying to help folks without superior throwing mechanics leverage upper body coil. Thing of winding a slinky....on both ends...One end you wind clockwise...the other counter clockwise....when you release the slinky, hardly any of that released stored energy is focused in any particular direction. Wind the slinky again with both hands....Now only release one end....All of that stored energy is released in a specific direction.
The retro serve essenially anchors the lower body (trunk), so that the coiling of the torso can be more significant, and the uncoiling of the torso can be better focused in a particular direction (the contact point). It really isn't that difficult to understand....
Be Happy....you remind me of a guy named "Gorilla" who was banned a while back...He contributed the same type of consistently negative feedback that you do....He had a similar "closed" mind to new or alternative concepts....hid behind his board name...and was concerned only with trying to demonstrate how smart he was....a coincidence? Hardly.....Have a nice day Gorilla.....
I was a baseball player in college....a pitcher. The Serve Doctor essentially helped me redirect my throwing mechanics to the contact point (upward plane as opposed to horizontal). For those of you familiar with the Sonic Serve video, I'm referring to the "set to launch" position. By incorporating my full throwing mechanics into a controlled ("in the cylinder" another Sonic Serve reference) upward direction, I've developed huge heat. I've also developed some pretty agressive spin serves.
Here is a test....If you think you have a good kick serve try the following...place a gatorade bottle 6 feet from the net on the ad court singles sideline. Serving from the ad court....see how many times you can hit the gatorade bottle....It will take some of you weeks before you can hit the target even once. You need a tremendous amount of spin to hit such an agressive target. Again, this part of the service box has been opened to me as a result of the Serve Doctor.
The retro serve technique is trying to help folks without superior throwing mechanics leverage upper body coil. Thing of winding a slinky....on both ends...One end you wind clockwise...the other counter clockwise....when you release the slinky, hardly any of that released stored energy is focused in any particular direction. Wind the slinky again with both hands....Now only release one end....All of that stored energy is released in a specific direction.
The retro serve essenially anchors the lower body (trunk), so that the coiling of the torso can be more significant, and the uncoiling of the torso can be better focused in a particular direction (the contact point). It really isn't that difficult to understand....
Be Happy....you remind me of a guy named "Gorilla" who was banned a while back...He contributed the same type of consistently negative feedback that you do....He had a similar "closed" mind to new or alternative concepts....hid behind his board name...and was concerned only with trying to demonstrate how smart he was....a coincidence? Hardly.....Have a nice day Gorilla.....
michael2kul4u
Rookie
interesting
I'm not the gorilla.
The serve is like an upward pitch in that it's a throwing motion.This is nothing new.
If you were a good pitcher then obviously you'll make a good server because the same muscle groups are used.It's the same as a good sprinter making a good long jumper.
I really don't know what you mean by 'consistently negative', what are you talking about?
Bungalo Bill hasn't released his name either, nor has Tricky, Bagumbawalla etc
The vast vast majority of people on TW haven't revealed their names either, because they are aware of the dangers of: identity theft, lawsuits and psychos.
The Sonic Serve video was great because it was a compilation of the conclusions of controlled, empirical research done by other people.
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Determined
New User
What is this....everyone's still going on about this? As long as he doesn't cause you any injuries it's your choice to listen to him or not. It's not like he's telling you to hold the racket with your mouth and hit the ball. He's just telling you a suggestion on a serve that's helped other people. If you go out and try it and it works for you then good for you. But if not then find something else that works for you. It's not like everyone is the exact same type of player. It's whether you accept it or not, you can choose to listen to some helpful tips and try it. If it doesn't work then try soemthing else. He's called the serve doctor and has a reputation at Bolliterri Academy so he must know something about what he's saying.
yeah, just one thing.
Aren't the shoulders approximately perpindicular to the spine?
He said the spine should rotate about an axis of 90 degrees to the ground.If you do that your shoulers will rotate horizonatally.
like this:
comprende?
Now, lets if the server he cited as using his retro serve actually does this:
as you can see the axis of his spine is approaching 45 degrees with the ground.As a result his shoulders are able to rotate more vertically than horizontally.
So he's definitely wrong about that.
Hope that cleared it up for you.
Be Happy... your observations about the vertical rotation on the shoulders is by no means any revelation to me and is correct as you obviously learned from me in the Sonic Serve, (your welcome!). If you bothered to notice, in the numerous demonstrations by the boy in the Retro Serve the shoulders rotate vertically in every case. Most people picked that up visually but you obviously need to be held by the hand and have everything spelled out for you. The demo I did with the three balls in each hand was to strictly show how a spring winds and unwinds, as I was describing at the time. The full spin I did was to emphasize where the balance is during the spin of a figure skater. Regarding the horizontal cylinder, it's extremely effective to use the cylinder where the shoulders initially remain on the horizontal plane to help students develop their basic throwing mechanics before I progress to the upward pitch. It helps discipline the body balance and minimize excess movement as well. Do you get it yet??
How can you show signs of intelligence yet take such pleasure in behaving like a pathetic moron. Your desperate attempts to solicit attention are that of a neglected child. No one seems to admire or respect your board presence, so why should they put any stock in your opinions?
You may as well give up trying to discredit my reputation because no one is buying it and it only proves my point over and over again that your behavior is nothing more than pathetic and deserved of banishment from these boards. I for one will no longer acknowledge your ridiculous comments and posts, and I suggest everyone else do the same. Maybe he and other like him will finally get the message that he is not welcome in your community.
How can you show signs of intelligence yet take such pleasure in behaving like a pathetic moron. Your desperate attempts to solicit attention are that of a neglected child. No one seems to admire or respect your board presence, so why should they put any stock in your opinions?
You may as well give up trying to discredit my reputation because no one is buying it and it only proves my point over and over again that your behavior is nothing more than pathetic and deserved of banishment from these boards. I for one will no longer acknowledge your ridiculous comments and posts, and I suggest everyone else do the same. Maybe he and other like him will finally get the message that he is not welcome in your community.
A person's intellectual value is not in their name, but it lyes in their words. . . I reject the notion that any user must reveal their true identity and be stripped of their anonymity for their arguments to have worth. To demand that is to comment the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad hominem.
-SF
-SF
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yeah, just one thing.
Aren't the shoulders approximately perpindicular to the spine?
He said the spine should rotate about an axis of 90 degrees to the ground.If you do that your shoulers will rotate horizonatally.
like this:
comprende?
Now, lets if the server he cited as using his retro serve actually does this:
as you can see the axis of his spine is approaching 45 degrees with the ground.As a result his shoulders are able to rotate more vertically than horizontally.
So he's definitely wrong about that.
Hope that cleared it up for you.
Yes, the shoulders are perpendicular to the spine.
However, once again you are putting words into his mouth.
He never mentioned that the spine would rotate like that. And he sure as hell never mentioned your horizontal whatnot.
He mentioned maintaining the axis and maintaining balance over the front foot.
You basically just made up crap.
Comprenez?
Yeah, that picture does show the guy with his shoulders at an angle.
Good thing Mr. Dougherty never mentioned keeping the shoulders perpendicular to the ground.
Seriously when did he mention not rotating your shoulders.
All he said was twist around vertical axis and maintain balance over the front foot.
You're just putting statements into Pat's mouth and apparently are now accepting them as his word.
Mr. Dougherty talks about twisting around the vertical axis.
This is wrapping around the vertical axis.
In order to twist around that axis, you're going to have to turn your body. But to keep balance while twisting you must keep your balance over the front foot.
Thanks for showing him definitely right.
If you need to see an example of this just make a helix by wrapping a wire around a pencil or something, the bottoms of the wire will be a 45 degree.
Hope that clears it up for ya.
yes
no
yes he did, I quoted him and showed the clip of him indicating the axis of the spine/torso.
You've already accepted that the shoulders are perpindicular to the spine.
The vertical axis, which results in horizontal shoulders
sigh
that's the problem
??????
you tell me :/
which forces you to rotate your shoulders horizontally
How?
By quoting him directly?
again, that's the problem.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your terminology
That's not what anyone who has ever had a good serve does/did, that's all I can say.if you rotate about a vertical axis, your shoulders must be horizontal.
If you say so :/
I'm not being an ahole or patronizing you here, but it's clear from your post that you neither understood his video,(which is good), or my criticism of it.
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Final words for Be Happy....
Criticism I have not a problem with nor does your disagreement with my methods bother me. I enjoy constructive banter if it furthers everyone's knowledge and understanding. As far as the personal attacks you waged, you must admit you crossed the line. I admit I may have attacked back in rebuttal but I was merely addressing erroneous comments made by you, which based on your style of communicating, you should be prepared for. Remember, in this case you were operating under a pseudonym aimed not at another pseudonym but you're attacking someone with a reputable public identity. There's a difference.
You have repeatedly claimed that my work lacked originality and was merely a compilation of previous research. Well I challenge you to cite exact examples of published data you've been referring to that pre-date my work. Good luck finding it! Maybe in your extensive research, you'll come across a patent I was granted in 1990 for my A.P. Belt device that's currently used by over two dozen college tennis teams, touring professionals and ITF juniors worldwide. I guess a U.S. patent would be a fairly valid example of "original" work.
As far as having lost respect for me... well you clearly showed me no respect from the get go, so there's no loss there. If you have been studying the game since the mid 80's then why on earth haven't you shared your body of work with the rest of the world like I have? I guess that too would that put you at too much risk of identity theft or a lawsuit. You just can't be careful enough these days! Funny, I've never been sued since apparently my entire collection of videos is strictly plagiarism.
I must admit this has been entertaining but this is far more time consuming and futile than I have the patience or the time for so thanks to all the feedback both positive and negative. The Serve Doc is signing off.
Criticism I have not a problem with nor does your disagreement with my methods bother me. I enjoy constructive banter if it furthers everyone's knowledge and understanding. As far as the personal attacks you waged, you must admit you crossed the line. I admit I may have attacked back in rebuttal but I was merely addressing erroneous comments made by you, which based on your style of communicating, you should be prepared for. Remember, in this case you were operating under a pseudonym aimed not at another pseudonym but you're attacking someone with a reputable public identity. There's a difference.
You have repeatedly claimed that my work lacked originality and was merely a compilation of previous research. Well I challenge you to cite exact examples of published data you've been referring to that pre-date my work. Good luck finding it! Maybe in your extensive research, you'll come across a patent I was granted in 1990 for my A.P. Belt device that's currently used by over two dozen college tennis teams, touring professionals and ITF juniors worldwide. I guess a U.S. patent would be a fairly valid example of "original" work.
As far as having lost respect for me... well you clearly showed me no respect from the get go, so there's no loss there. If you have been studying the game since the mid 80's then why on earth haven't you shared your body of work with the rest of the world like I have? I guess that too would that put you at too much risk of identity theft or a lawsuit. You just can't be careful enough these days! Funny, I've never been sued since apparently my entire collection of videos is strictly plagiarism.
I must admit this has been entertaining but this is far more time consuming and futile than I have the patience or the time for so thanks to all the feedback both positive and negative. The Serve Doc is signing off.
you have a funny way of showing it.
Yeah, your posts were censored and deleted, not mine.
Not by proving me wrong, but by insulting me, as, (it has become apparant), is typical of you.
What?
You mean arguing over facts instead of presonally attacking people?
Yeah, that must have been really disconcerting for you.
Which is why I was so suprised at the classless way you conducted yourself.
If you really knew what you were talking about you would have been able to prove me wrong in an instant.Instead you responded to criticism by mindlessly insulting me.
Have you ever heard of the burden of proof?
The fact is, no biomechanist, (or whatever title a particular researcher gives himself) ever copywrites their findings.Even if they did, you didn't break copywrite as you didn't claim originality.You know this, and you exploited this on this forum by giving the impression it was original work.
Yeah, I don't see what your AP belt can accomplish that conciously bending your knees can't.
When someone Disagrees with you, it doesn't mean that they don't respect you.
This goes a long way towards explaining your bizarre behaviour.
Anyone who's body of work consists of a cheap little gimmick shouldn't be this proud.
On the internet?No, you can't.
Oh, congragulations in advance on winning the lotto, you should recieve an email from some Nigerian businessmen any day now
It's funny that all you could come up with when pressed for something original was that stupid little belt.Was that featured in your Sonic Serve video?
I think not.
When the going gets tough...
I have, step by step, shown that every single piece of advice you gave in that video was harmful to the serve.
Every technical argument I made, every picture proving that the players you said used your service motion don't, every source cited was ignored and was responded to with stream of vicious personal attacks, you made no attempt to try to prove that your serve is used, or has ever been used by a professional tennis player, or to deny the existance of the obvious deficiencies which I identified which makes your motion unusable.
You put up an unproven, experimental, theoretical, whatever you want to call it: Service motion, up on featured prominentlyTennis.com, the most popular source of tennis instruction on the web, you had it an action which coul have far reaching consequences for american tennis.
Who's to say a potential future Roddick won't have his serve derailed by your terrible instruction.
your serve:
1)Has never been used by a professional tennis player, ever.
2)Produces terrible serves.
I hope you're proud of yourself.
Knowing you, you probably are.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Are you serious? First off the AP belt does a lot more then just bending your knees because during practice when a player is getting tired they have a tendency to RISE. The AP belt builds thigh and calf muscle because it forces a player to stay down longer then they normally would and provides constant feedback when a player is not in an athletic stance during his movement.
You are wrong again!
THe AP Belt is hardly a gimmick. Have you used one Einstein? I have and it kills your legs which promotes conditioning to the maximum.
KK, are you getting all of this? This is just bad for this site.
Oh, congragulations in advance on winning the lotto, you should recieve an email from some Nigerian businessmen any day now
More nonsense.
This guy has to go.
LOL!
Where? Are you kidding? This is beyond belief, this is now borderline slander.
Every technical argument you have tried to make turns out to be false!
LOL! What a joker.
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.
I'm not interested in personal attacks BB, address the arguments I made in the post above ServeDoc's last or else I will just ignore you.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Well you speak out of both sides of your mouth. Because you personally attacked the poster about the AP Belt.
Have you used the AP Belt before? The answer is a big fat NO!
I scrutinized your poor analysis of the AP Belt which you personally attacked its usefulness for a player. Have you invented something better?
Actually, I would rather see you removed from this site as you have been clearly wrong about everything you debate on.
You promote bad instruction and you try to slander people who clearly know more then you do.
It is one thing to know what your talking about and get into a heated debate, it is quite another when you are visciously attacking people's credibility when they have contributed far more to tennis then you have.
Your insights are off, your instruction is off, and your video analysis is a joke.
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Like I said BB, I'm not interested in personal attacks.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, okay. Sure. lol
Alafter
Hall of Fame
If this is really Pat, then I am REALLY glad to even find you post here.
I don't really care about the debate you are having with Behappy. Like it's gonna change anything in this world besides making this thread longer and you killing time by arguing here.
This is coming out of nowhere, but I am excited to try out this motion 'cause I think it might actually work. There's a million tiny details I can think of that I am gonna want to ask.
Btw, is there some kind of public domain email I can contact you with questions? Or can you create one just for this purpose? You can find my email in my profile.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Yes, it looks like the abbreviated serve (although I did not see the entire serve motion) where both arms go up simultaeneously as the ball is tossed in the air. Power is generated by using more muscle from the body (or more coiling) to get the arm moving.
With this serve, in order to protect yourself from injury, opening the hitting shoulder is a must to release anything that might get "squeezed" like a nerve. The injury might not happen right away but it could eventually.
It is a great serve if done correctly and making sure the hitting shoulder opens up.
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Leoboomanu
Rookie
I agree with you BB...
Just please remove the 'step up with the backfoot'...
Then open up the shoulders during the 'back scratch' and it will look like Nadal's serve... Very basic abbreviated type service motion...
http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/pdmediabooks/players.asp?section=players&page=2
Peace
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I think part of the problem here is that BeHappy has obviously never "taught" tennis. Teachers often implement a "building block" approach to achieve a polished final result. The retro serve is designed to help people with less than optimal throwing mechanics. Whether you choose to implement the retro serve in your game or not isnt really important....but if you want to learn how to optimize your throwing mechanics it is worth experimenting with.
Some folks actually have people stand in a reverse stance to help them better feel what it means to fully coil. Here is what I mean....Most right handed players serve with their back facing to the left. Try serving with your back facing to the right....In order to even have a chance of hitting your target area...you have to coil a significant amount.
This is called a "drill" an exercise to help a student hone in on a certain feeling....or to help them identify a feeling that they should be looking for in their standard technique....The retro serve happens to be a drill, that you could actually compete with if you found that it produced the results you were looking for...
By the way....the AP Belt was featured/introduced in "The Killer Forehand".
Some folks actually have people stand in a reverse stance to help them better feel what it means to fully coil. Here is what I mean....Most right handed players serve with their back facing to the left. Try serving with your back facing to the right....In order to even have a chance of hitting your target area...you have to coil a significant amount.
This is called a "drill" an exercise to help a student hone in on a certain feeling....or to help them identify a feeling that they should be looking for in their standard technique....The retro serve happens to be a drill, that you could actually compete with if you found that it produced the results you were looking for...
By the way....the AP Belt was featured/introduced in "The Killer Forehand".
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Why would I ever want the step-up with the backfoot removed?
It is my preference to slide up my backfoot. Is this what you mean?
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
BeHappy has been wrong so many times, he resorts to discrediting the person to get his marbles in order.
It is EXTREMELY CLEAR he has no idea what he is looking at.
I think Pat did a great job in explaning the "retro" serve although I am having trouble with the term. I was not able to see the entire motion but it certainly looked like the abbreviated serve motion that was made popular by Patrick Rafter and a few others.
BeHappy doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand that when a coach on this forum recommends something they have a goal in mind. They get the person started and as the person asks more questions they fill it in.
I thought Pat did an excellent job in explaning the abbreviated serve (I am going to try to encourage Pat to "RETRO" back that name.). The coiling part was explained very well.
I am glad to see Pat is alive and well.
Oh, by the way, if any tennis player listens to BeHappy regarding the AP Belt, I have one and have used it. It is one of the best tools for a tennis player. Be prepared fora tough workout. I could only keep it on for about 20 minutes and my legs were jello. So don't listen to him and if you are interested in it, I highly recommend it for your tennis training.
lol, too funny.
When you address my arguments then I will respond to you BB, until then I will ignore you.
FWIW, I think you should be banned, or at least heavily censored, you get away with so much trolling and flaming it's phenomenal.For every helpful post you make, there are at least 20 trolls/flames/baits.
Since you're refutation consists of 'LOL, OMG, can you believe this moron?!?!', and personal attacks, I don't see how it's worth the time and effort responding.
Here are my arguments anyway
FWIW, I think you should be banned, or at least heavily censored, you get away with so much trolling and flaming it's phenomenal.For every helpful post you make, there are at least 20 trolls/flames/baits.
Since you're refutation consists of 'LOL, OMG, can you believe this moron?!?!', and personal attacks, I don't see how it's worth the time and effort responding.
Here are my arguments anyway
BeHappy said:I'm moving my reply to Pat Dougherty to the bottom
1)I have been studying the game since the mid-80's.
2)I recognised nothing new in your sonic serve video, just a compilation of other people's work.
That's because he didn't rotate his spine about a vertical axis as you said he/we should and demonstrated in your video.
as you can see, the axis about which his spine rotates is approximately 45 degrees to the ground, as opposed to the 90 degrees you recommended.
Here is Ivan Lendl,
as you can see his spine is rotating about an axis approximately 45 degree to the ground as well:
Again with the personal attacks.It doesn't reflect well on you...
really?
So mid-lesson you decided to randomly elabarote on the the finer points of figure skating technique did you?
I'll remind you of what you actually said,, and I'm quoting you verbatim here, ([] = context/comments added by me):
''he's going to maintain this axis[moves arm up and down to indicate vertical axis of spine ], similar to how a figure skater keeps that balance over the front foot like that''[rotates with shoulders horizontal as a result of vertical axis of spine]
I think you're being a little bit dishonest here, aren't you?
nice moves BTW
That $20000 dance off is still on the table lol.
That doesn't make sense, it's the same motion with the arm.All that serving with the shuolders horizontal ,as you just recommended, does is:
1)reduce the topspin component of your serve to zero
2)As this disconnects your arm with the rest of the kinetic chain, it teaches you to swing the arm with only the shoulder, that is: It teaches you to arm the serve
That just lays the foundation for a dink serve.
Again with the personal attacks.
My motivation here has nothing to do with discrediting you.I don't care about you.
My motivation is in protecting people from picking up bad technique.
Your previous serving video:Sonic Serve , is fine, because it has absolutely nothing original in it .
It's just a combination of the fruits of other peoples work.
It's an excellent example of the type of quality that is typical of empirical work.Everything you advised people to do in that video was grounded in 25 years of scientifically conducted biomechanical research, (By other people), using controlled studies to build solid axioms.
What you did in this video, the retro serve was very different, you jumped straight from a hypothoses to teaching an unproven service motion on the most widely accessed tennis instruction resource on the internet, featuring it no less.That was incredibly irresponsible.
This service motion
1)Has never before been seen in professional tennis
2)Eliminates hips rotation, a massive source of service power.
3)Eliminates any topspin component on the ball, as if you rotate the spine about a vertical axis as you recommend your shoulders must be almost horizonatal.
It also:
4)Forces you to arm the ball, as if the shoulders are horizontal, the arm is completely disconnected from the rest of the body.That is to say, the kinetic chain consists of the shoulder.
For the last time, I don't care about your reputation.
At all.
Why, because I dared illustrate that you're wrong?
I'll remind you that you're the one who has had posts deleted on this thread due to their vicious nature, not me.
Your reaction to criticism is pathetic, I for one have lost all respect for you at this point.
And rounded off with a vicious personal attack, oh well, I can see this is how you typically respond to people disagreeing with you, by ignoring their arguments and doing everything your power to discredit and isolate them.
Like I said before, it doesn't reflect well on you.
This is actually a very good question.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
I wouldn't even bore myself in reviewing and addressing your arguments. It isn't worth my time anymore. You are done here.
It is one thing to argue in a heated debate, it is another thing when you start resorting to slander and defaming a person. Although KK is controlling this, I happen to like heated debates where we are going at it and getting a little personal. However, I think you go too far.
Your words above to Pat Dougherty were blasphemous to someone who has clearly spent more time then you teaching and educating people to have a better serve. Do you know how difficult it is to be a tennis instructor? Do you know how difficult it is to make it as a coach in tennis?
I can tell you have no clue. So when someone puts the effort into teaching and researching things in tennis, it should be respected.
The serve happens to be the most complex motions in tennis and it takes a lot of insight and understanding. You happen to like sitting back and downplaying everyone’s efforts to better tennis.
You failed as an instructor, a tip provider, as a video analyst, and now you failed and alienated everyone from you. Now, nobody here will listen to you. Nobody.
Your entire post is a personal attack, I didn't slander Pat Dougherty, I just showed that he was wrong.
Pat Dougherty was the one who had posts deleted because of their vicious nature, not me
If you're not going to address my arguments you must know you're wrong.Stop wasting everyone's time.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
LOL, yeah okay. Maybe we ought to just give you a courtesy victory. LOL!
Whatever, if you ever want to talk tennis technique like a mature adult you know where to find me.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, I sure do. Bye-bye.
cya .
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Be Happy has done a great job of teaching the serve...indirectly.This thread is loaded with some very valuable tips.
Thanks to ServeDoc and John Yandell in particular for their wonderful exegesis of the service motion.
-Robert
really?
He didn't talk about serving mechancics at all, he just threw insults around.
If you learned anything at all from my posts that's great.
I watched it a few more times to make sure,
but Pat never mentions anything about horizontal shoulders.
"Similar to how a figure skater maintains that balance over the front foot"
In fact the only time he even mentions the shoulders is when he says, "focus all the energy into the unwind of the shoulders."
Perhaps you're hearing things?
I'm done here, I'm wasting my time arguing against you.
Your entire argument is based on a misquote.
Apparently you're quite a troll yourself BeHappy, hm...
but Pat never mentions anything about horizontal shoulders.
"Similar to how a figure skater maintains that balance over the front foot"
In fact the only time he even mentions the shoulders is when he says, "focus all the energy into the unwind of the shoulders."
Perhaps you're hearing things?
I'm done here, I'm wasting my time arguing against you.
Your entire argument is based on a misquote.
Apparently you're quite a troll yourself BeHappy, hm...
no
''he's going to maintain this axis[moves arm up and down to indicate vertical axis of spine ], similar to how a figure skater keeps that balance over the front foot like that''[rotates with shoulders horizontal as a result of vertical axis of spine]
apologies in writing please.
BeHappy, if you are more knowledgable then Pat at tennis, then why didn't Nick Bolletari hire you? Exactly the point.
Sure, maybe if you over analyze his teaching methods you'll get "horizontal" axis out of it. He's comparing the serving technique in which you wind up like a spring to a figure skater, who spins around. The whole point is for you to uncoil into the ball with your entire body. He's not telling you to keep your shoulders horizontal. If he doesn't say it explicitly, then he doesn't mean it.
For you to even consider calling a professional tennis instructor who has had many years of success and results ignorant and unknowledgable is just plain out stupid. If Pat was a con as you say he is, then he sure is good at producing good tennis players without good teaching methods.
Sure, maybe if you over analyze his teaching methods you'll get "horizontal" axis out of it. He's comparing the serving technique in which you wind up like a spring to a figure skater, who spins around. The whole point is for you to uncoil into the ball with your entire body. He's not telling you to keep your shoulders horizontal. If he doesn't say it explicitly, then he doesn't mean it.
For you to even consider calling a professional tennis instructor who has had many years of success and results ignorant and unknowledgable is just plain out stupid. If Pat was a con as you say he is, then he sure is good at producing good tennis players without good teaching methods.
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