Return GOAT list

captainbryce

Hall of Fame
My current list of GOAT returners (in descending order):

10. David Ferrer
9. Rafael Nadal
8. James Blake
7. Kei Nishikori
6. Jimmy Conners
5. Andy Murray
4. Roger Federer

3. Lleyton Hewitt
163536411-lleyton-hewitt-of-australia-waits-for-a-gettyimages.jpg


2. Andre Agassi
Agassi_returns_serve.JPG


1. Novak Djokovic
Novak-Djokovic.jpg


Thoughts?
 

Gary20

Banned
1. Agassi
2. Connors
3. Djokovic

Those three head and shoulders above the rest. Agassi gets my nod as he had to deal with a range of great serve volleyers, Becker, Edberg, Stich, Sampras, Ivanisevic and others. Connors had McEnroe of course, Djokovic hasnt had that variety of player coming at him. But those three in a league of their own.
 
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Chadillac

Guest
Agassi was aced the most times in the history of the game, dont let his flash fool you.

Djok, nadal on clay, fed. Djok makes the return look easy, nadal for effectiveness in neutralizing and fed on offensve.
 
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Deleted member 716271

Guest
All time great :Djokovic

Very, very good: Nadal and Murray

Very good and underrated: Fed, especially if you look at how he handles big servers (Roddick is a good example lol)
 
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Nachiket Nolefam

Guest
Nadal stands so back and just depends on rallying after first return. And this year, when he can't he is not able to break serve anymore. Hoped he would meet Roger at least once to see if he could.

He won't be top 3/5 greatest returner. I saw an article of big 3 serve/ return points won on clay/grass and hard. Nadal was so much better returner on clay (again because of his rallying skills) and its so much easier to break serve on clay than hard/grass, his numbers are high, added to the fact that he overfits his clay season, more matches more wins etc (only guy with 300 clay wins in active group, ridiculous).
The article:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6c72731e-6116-11e4-b935-00144feabdc0.html

Djokovic, Agassi and Connors should be there, although Djokovic is improving his return game every year and Agassi already declared him best of all time. Also, his ridiculous flexibility helps. Many commentators are saying him as best returner of all time, without doubt.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
This thread just further reinforces to me that Nadal is probably the best player from the baseline from the current era, and possibly ever, given that we are firmly in a deeply baseline centric era. I don't really rate his serve and a lot of his return stats aren't really a product of a GOAT level return.

Djokovic overall has a better serve and a legitimate argument for best ever return.
 
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Nachiket Nolefam

Guest
This thread just further reinforces to me that Nadal is probably the best player from the baseline from the current era, and possibly ever, given that we are firmly in a deeply baseline centric era. I don't really rate his serve and a lot of his return stats aren't really a product of a GOAT level return.

Djokovic overall has a better serve and a legitimate argument for best ever return.

Again, great on clay, not best baseline player on hard/grass.
He won't be top 3/5 greatest returner. I saw an article of big 3 serve/ return points won on clay/grass and hard. Nadal was so much better returner on clay (again because of his rallying skills) and its so much easier to break serve on clay than hard/grass, his numbers are high, added to the fact that he overfits his clay season, more matches more wins etc (only guy with 300 clay wins in active group, ridiculous).
The article:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6c72731e-6116-11e4-b935-00144feabdc0.html
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I just think that if Nadal and Djokovic kept their rallying abilities but traded their serve-return combo (everything else remains the same) then Nadal wins more than he has and Djokovic wins less than he has.

Or, if they kept their serve-return combinations but traded rallying abilities, then obviously I'd predict the opposite.
 
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Nachiket Nolefam

Guest
I just think that if Nadal and Djokovic kept their rallying abilities but traded their serve-return combo (everything else remains the same) then Nadal wins more than he has and Djokovic wins less than he has.

Or, if they kept their serve-return combinations but traded rallying abilities, then obviously I'd predict the same eventuality.
Hmm everything starts with serve and return. Not sure but possible.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Hmm everything starts with serve and return. Not sure but possible.

Lol, you quoted my wrong version - brain hiccup there. But yes, I agree that it's at least possible.

The baseline game is the cornerstone of Nadal's game, as well as his grit and resourcefulness.

Djokovic plays a slightly more straightforward game because he has cover in many areas. His return is as important to him (relative to other great returns) as his baseline game is. His serve is consistently very good now. He's more consistently rounded as a player.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Also, for the above reasons, I suspect Djokovic will enjoy a less calamitous decline than Nadal, or that when he dips it won't be as low because he has more cover in his game. That doesn't mean that Nadal won't get it back for a stint or two before he's done, but his task is truly difficult.
 
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Nachiket Nolefam

Guest
I guess his decline would be softer. He takes proper care of his body, maybe amongst best ever team. F1 racer type approach, everything measured to last bit. His movement allows him to run less than usual and he is trying to improve his Serve+Return combo under Becker.

Andre did play in his late 30s with similar gamestyle. So I hope Novak does too.
 

Flash O'Groove

Hall of Fame
My current list of GOAT returners (in descending order):

10. David Ferrer
9. Rafael Nadal
8. James Blake
7. Kei Nishikori
6. Jimmy Conners
5. Andy Murray
4. Roger Federer
3. Lleyton Hewitt
2. Andre Agassi
1. Novak Djokovic

Thoughts?

Look like 90% of the best ever returners played in the 2000s...why not call it the best returners since the 2000? I imagine players like Rosewall, Borg, Laver, Edberg, Wilander, etc. had better return that some players on this list.

In more recent times, think the 10 best returners were:

1. Djokovic 2. Agassi 3. Hewitt 4. Federer 5. Murray 6. Davydenko 7. Ferrer 8. Nalbandian 9. Nadal 10. ? maybe Blake

This thread just further reinforces to me that Nadal is probably the best player from the baseline from the current era, and possibly ever, given that we are firmly in a deeply baseline centric era. I don't really rate his serve and a lot of his return stats aren't really a product of a GOAT level return.

Djokovic overall has a better serve and a legitimate argument for best ever return.

I have not a single doubt that Nadal is the greatest baseline player ever on slow-high bouncing surfaces, which luckily for him constitute the biggest part of the tour. As you said, 100% of his success comes from the baseline, whereas for Djokovic his good serve, great return come into play, Federer has the serve and the forecourt game, etc. Nadal has only the rallies. But he remain to defensive to beat a fellow great baseliner on quicker surfaces.
 
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Deleted member 716271

Guest
This thread just further reinforces to me that Nadal is probably the best player from the baseline from the current era, and possibly ever, given that we are firmly in a deeply baseline centric era. I don't really rate his serve and a lot of his return stats aren't really a product of a GOAT level return.

Djokovic overall has a better serve and a legitimate argument for best ever return.

It's a compelling argument. I do think Nadal is superior to Novak in many areas that don't have to do with the baseline though that could offset his inferior serve and return (implying that he doesn't necessarily have to be better from the baseline) And I do think there is a dichotomy as some have mentioned between on clay and off.
 

captainbryce

Hall of Fame
@Flash O'Groove

I think the captain is a thorough believer in the evolution of the game and so favours players from more recent generations, with a few exceptions.
This is it exactly! For the most part, I tend to think that the "best" strokes, and more "athletic" players are going to be in the most recent generation -- and this is a trend that holds true in ALL sports (including tennis). Roger Federer in his prime is the greatest player of all time, and Rafael Nadal is the second greatest player of all time. Both of them are in the current generation, still playing, and could possibly be overtaken by Novak Djokovic in the next 6 or 7 years. Rod Laver, Jimmy Conners, Bjorn Borg, John McEnroe, and Ivan Lendl were outstanding players in their eras, but would be crushed if they played in the current era against Federer, Nadal or Djokovic! The only previously great champions that could even challenge them are Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi in their prime. And I still think BOTH of them would ultimately have losing records to the current "best". Similarly, if you take Margaret Court, Billie Jean King, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, and Steffi Graf in their physical prime, and put them in 2015, Serena Williams would have as dominant a record against all of them as she does against Sharapova, Azarenka, Radwanska, and Wozniacki. Only Graf (again, closest to the Serena generation) would be able to challenge Serena on occasion. She had the speed and power (off the forehand) that is equivalent to the top players today. But she also had a backhand weakness that Serena could exploit.

The only area of the game where I think players have actually devolved is the volley. Volleying isn't the art today that it used to be. Most of the good volleyers in today's game are doubles specialists (Leander Paes, The Bryan Bros, Hingis/Mirza, etc). In singles, you can count the number of really good volleyers left on one hand. Llodra, Stepenek, Federer, and maybe Tsonga? Radwanska, Venus Williams, and Roberta Vinci are the only women I can think of with a really good volley. But the majority of players in both the men's and women's game are mediocre to terrible in their net game compared to players in past generations. One, because of the nature of the game nowadays, it's more difficult for a player to serve and volley as effectively against the great returners of this generation. Two, the surfaces are more homogenized (slower), and the ball bounces high even on grass (right into a returner's strike zone). So a serve and volley player today is going to get passed more easily than they could back in the 70s - 90s. So much of the skill and touch at net has been lost and has become almost a relic of the past because that style of play isn't taught anymore.

The first time a baseline player won Wimbledon in the Open Era was when Andre Agassi won it in 1992. Before that, the tournament had been dominated by serve and volleyers. And the ONLY reason Agassi won it is because he had a return of serve (and followed it up with passing shots) that were capable of neutralizing the primary weapons of the players who typically dominated Wimbledon. It took ten more years before the next baseliner, Lleyton Hewitt (another outstanding returner) could win the tournament. Flash forward to today the situation has completely reversed. Baseliners (Djokovic, Nadal, Murray, and Federer) dominate Wimbledon. Yes Federer is more of an "all-court player", but he tends to stay back more today than when he beat Pete Sampras in 2001 (when he was also a serve and volley player). But in every other aspect of the game (serves, returns, forehands, backhands, speed, power, athleticism, etc) the game continually evolves, and the "best" players tend to advance with the evolution of the game.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
1. Agassi
2. Connors
3. Djokovic

Agassi was able to return serves on slick, fast grass and even quicker carpet. Djoker has benefited from the slowing down of all surfaces. He's the greatest returner of the past 10 years (and Murray is damn fine too). But Djoker couldn't return Pete's serve on 1995 Wimbledon grass. Andre was able to do it on occasion, which is more than anybody else.

Andre also anticipated serves better than anyone and did more with the placement. Djoker is incredible in this regard, but Agassi is in a league of his own.
 

mistik

Hall of Fame
I still believe Agassi is a better returner than Novak. Agassi also played in 90s with faster conditions. Most of the the time length on the return that Novak finds is annoying for his opponents,Novak isnt a winner machine as Agassi used to when it comes to hitting winners against first serves.
 

captainbryce

Hall of Fame
Agassi was able to return serves on slick, fast grass and even quicker carpet. Djoker has benefited from the slowing down of all surfaces. He's the greatest returner of the past 10 years (and Murray is damn fine too). But Djoker couldn't return Pete's serve on 1995 Wimbledon grass. Andre was able to do it on occasion, which is more than anybody else.

Andre also anticipated serves better than anyone and did more with the placement. Djoker is incredible in this regard, but Agassi is in a league of his own.

I still believe Agassi is a better returner than Novak. Agassi also played in 90s with faster conditions. Most of the the time length on the return that Novak finds is annoying for his opponents,Novak isnt a winner machine as Agassi used to when it comes to hitting winners against first serves.
Good points! The era Agassi played in increases the difficulty of returning serves efficiently, and he was able to do things that Djokovic probably wouldn't have been able to.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Connors is the best. Fastest surfaces. Returning serves with a 65 sq in racquet on grass by guys like Roscoe Tanner. There is no comparison to anyone else. He could return defensively or punch return offensively to either corner and come in right behind it. Nobody has since returned with near as much hand eye coordination.

After Connors, my list goes like this:

1) Connors
2) Agassi
3) Coria
4) Djokovic
 

xFedal

Legend
Djokovic and Murray are probably 2 very best Returners ever.... But to be a great Player Serve is more important which Nole has and Murray doesn't historically... Nadal is known as the returner and Fed as the server and Nads > Fed when it comes to return....
 

Fate Archer

Hall of Fame
Add Nalbandian, Davy and Safin. Not ATG, but purely looking at the return stroke itself, these should rank very high.
 
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