johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Have you seen anyone taking two steps forward before split step and then return serve? I don't remember any pro doing that. Got a suggestion to try this. I currently use Andy Murray footwork for the return.
Return of serve: 2 steps before split
- Thread starter johnmccabe
- Start date
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I’ve seen some players take one step forward before they split step, but not two. Djokovic just starts with a wide stance, does a split step and goes into the return.
Why not be like Djo?
Why not be like Djo?
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johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I only see one step forward before split step. That's what I do now. I guess the idea is to get even more forward momentum by taking one more step. Like on serve, some players stand a little behind baseline, slide the front foot forward and then do the normal pinpoint move.
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Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Its right foot then left foot. How is that not 2 steps?
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
It would be right foot forward, left foot forward, then get in the air from the left foot. 2 steps forward before split.
forward momentum is important... but for me, whether i take {0, 1, 2} steps (before split) has more to do with sync;'ing myself to the servers serving rhythm (and pace of serve)
i'm also experimented with the number/szie of steps i take before the split, to disguise my depth of positioning (eg, if i setup deep, they typically go wide, if i setup short, they tend to go body, etc..)
my $.02
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I've mostly been changing size of the step in combination of starting position to adjust to the ball speed and placement. For rhythm related to high vs low toss etc, I adjust the timing of the forward step relative to their toss. I need to ask the coach why he made the suggestion to me.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Wondering how you sync yourself to the pace of the serve. The pre-SS step (that Murray employs) is taken during the server’s toss. The SS is typically executed during the latter part of the server’s upward swing to contact. Do you know the pace of the serve prior to the SS?
I employed a single step (usually large) prior to the SS. The speed (& to a lesser extent, the size) of that step is how I would sync up to the rhythm of the server. For a server with a high toss or a slow rhythm, my preparatory step would be a large, slooow deliberate step. For a low tosser or quicker rhythm, the prep step would be quicker (sometimes a little shorter).
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Most of us don’t have anything close to Djoko’s flexibility. His extreme wide preparation stance is much wider than I could have ever achieved.
On my SS, my feet actually split— get wider. Can’t possibly do this if my stance is already very wide.
My preference is the Andy Murray variation— something I learned when Andy was still in diapers. I think this style might be easier to master than the extreme Gumby style of Novak. Have you been able to implement the Gumby style with a more moderate prep stance?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I do a very wide-legged stance with chest leaning well forward and split step first while becoming more upright, but still with some forward lean and then I turn torso in the direction I need to turn it. I used to have legs closer in my stance many years ago and actually tried to copy Djokovic a bit to get wider and lower - it certainly needed more leg strength to be developed when I first started doing it.
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I do the same as Murray (I took the idea from studying him).
Take steps during the toss.
After a couple games I get a feel for their pace, but of course they can choose to change the pace, but servers (at 4.5) have favorites/patterns.
I don’t have a system for when I use 012 steps before the split, but I do find myself adjusting from opponent to opponent, and based on what I want to do.
[edit] thinking a bit, I think I take more steps the further back I start.
When I’m on top of baseline, like Agassi, I tend to take zero steps…
But if I’m back by the fence (not often), I tend to take 2 steps.
Against precision servers I sometimes take a false step (eg let them see me move toward a location)
My default, when comfortable with the serve, is probably zero steps
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I tried to implement the Djoko return stance & SS some 12+ years ago. I had very good leg strength at that time but considerably less hip abduction / flexibility than Novak.
Even tho my leg strength & (explosive) power were quite good, particularly with a moderate / medium stance, it seemed that I did not have that explosiveness with an ultra-wide (Novak-esque) stance.
No such problem with the Murray implementation.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Shroud
It was always 1 (pre-SS) step for me. But I almost never started way behind the BL. Usually started somewhere between a meter behind the BL to a meter inside the BL (often for 2nd serve returns).
The step was usually L to XL. The speed of that step was fairly slow to very quick — as needed to sync to the serving motion
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
L to xl??
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Large to eXtra-Large(ish). But i employed more variation in the speed of the step than the size of the step
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Thanks!
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Tried the 2 step method. The feet felt more lively but I don't think my split step was as wide as before. Don't know how long it takes me to adjust to different opponents. The current plan is to change the first step rhythm and size, while keeping the second step relatively short and quick. Will see how it works in sets next week.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
What are you trying to achieve by taking two steps before the split-step? If you are presumably split-stepping when the opponent makes contact, you are just moving forward during his toss. Can’t you just stand closer? If you are taking so many steps forward, can you react quickly to body serves?
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
The coach suggested this to me mostly want more forward momentum and more active feet.
I do have problems with body serves and I did ask him. Sounds like I just need to learn to read it quicker and not split step too far into the court.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Sometimes. See it mostly in college play, and more often on like a second serve or such. Usually just just one step and split, or just the split.
Also see players adjust sideways a step or two too.
I know I have seen pros doing it, but from what I recall they are usually one step and split for the most part.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
That's an interesting observation. Indeed the suggestion came from a college coach.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
The key to remember is that you want to store energy in your legs by pressing down into the ground during your stance and then release it by split-stepping and moving forward explosively. If you have a wider stance, it is easier to get more ground reaction force to help your forward momentum.
I would love to see an opponent move a lot during their return as the chance of them being balanced for different kinds of serves will be less the more they move. I will try different kinds of serves to see which one they are vulnerable to in terms do spin and target.
Apart from body serves, I wonder how well a player taking two steps forward can react to a serve with a lot of sidespin that curves away from them or into their body. On 2nd serves, I am more conscious of being light on my feet to be quicker to move sideways as needed to deal with more sidespin. On first serves, I am more conscious about being explosive to have forward momentum to deal with higher pace.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I think this was my problem that prompted the suggestion in the first place.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I think it is just college tends to more offensive, and also has more disparity in levels at times, so being coached to move in, and being able to move in are more common there. Hit YouTube and watch some D1 play. I better you'll see it within the first few games at least a few times.
EDIT to add: I do see it in rec play and use it sometimes myself if there is a fluff server. Just crash the net type, not really executed and controlled for offense.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Maybe you are too flat-footed in your stance and don’t move towards slower, spinnier serves well. Suggest pressing down on your toes more in your stance and being wider more - heel can be slightly up or still touching the ground lightly. Make sure that you have some chest lean forward in your stance, but when you have to get low for low, slice serves, you have to make sure you bend with your knees and not by bending your chest too much as you will get unbalanced otherwise.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Reviewing match videos. I think I get stuck after split step on slower spinny serves. Maybe I can use the 2 step footwork as a transitioning tool. Just use it when I feel I'm getting stuck in the ground waiting for the ball to come to me. Hopefully after developing the good habit and awareness. I can stay with the Murray footwork.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Apart from being flat-footed, do you get too upright after the splitstep? You have to be tilted forward with some knee bend while returning serves to get some oomph on the return and you don’t want to get too upright while moving and then bend again as you will bend with your chest and not knees. You should diagnose what your issues are compared to good returners and then decide what you need to correct rather than copying one pro or another. Maybe you can ask your coach what exactly he is trying to fix and why he thinks this approach is the best way to fix it and whether there are alternative things you should try also.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I'll ask him in our next meeting. Right now, my problem is being too aggressive with attacking serves leading to too many return errors.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
What kind of errors are you making? The cause for net errors is typically different from long or wide errors. Wide errors are due to over-rotation typically. Net errors can be from getting too upright/high and not getting low enough to start swings lower than the desired contact point or jamming yourself by not having enough spacing to extend your arms and have full extension while making contact - can also happen because you didn’t get to the desired spot on time and the ball dropped too low already to be aggressive. Long errors are due to lack of spin - can be for many reasons including not enough spacing, hitting the ball not early enough in front of you, not getting low enough, not rotating through contact, having too open a racquet face etc.
When you are being aggressive, you have to move quickly to get to the ball before it drops too low and then you have to give yourself enough spacing both laterally and in front to hit out at the ball with a full swing. If you don’t get to the ball early, you have to hit a safer return. Many rec players don’t return slow, shallow serves well because they don’t recognize it early enough to move in quickly before the ball drops too low or they don’t get low enough to start their swing - if the servers have only slow serves that are typically not deep, you can stand closer.
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johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I need to start charting more of my match videos to find out. I bet I do all of them from time to time!
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Then it is not just your return footwork that is the problem. You probably struggle against players who don’t give you pace or keep the ball low and make you move more up/down. You’ll need lessons on hitting more spin so that you can swing faster and still be consistent along with a lot of practice on footwork and spacing for midcourt shots and short balls. If this resonates with you, do a lot more short ball drills and focus on getting more topspin RPM with your coach before focusing on return footwork.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I hit a lot of return winners on slow serves, but too many errors too.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
The answer is always to master more SPIN to fix everything in tennis - that’s my philosophy anyway. If you have more spin, you can swing faster and get more pace and depth also without missing. To get more spin, you have to be at the right spot early with good balance and spacing - so early ball RECOGNITION and good FOOTWORK is key also.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
My mentality and target areas are definitely part of the problem too
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
If your mentality is to destroy slow serves and to hit them deep close to the lines or right back at the server, that is not the problem - that is the right attitude. If you don’t have the ability to execute it, that is the problem. Don’t let opponents get away with weak serves - set up the point pattern right away in your favor, but you don’t have to hit winners on every return.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
More aggression than my ability to execute has been plaguing my game since day 1
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Aggressive play requires solid fundamentals. You can get away with being a conservative player in singles at lower levels, but you are not going to be good at doubles and your ceiling is not that high without fundamentals anyway. So start developing a good foundation to your game and someday you can execute an aggressive playstyle.
Some people have an aggressive nature in how they want to play - I don’t think it can be changed too much as that is what they enjoy. They just have a very low ceiling if they don’t learn fundamentals - even lower than someone whose nature is OK wiith being a pusher until they learn fundamentals.
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