Revisiting the debate: Serena Williams vs Steffi Graf

[Sport]

Who was greater?

Argument pro-Serena: 23 Grand Slam singles titles, one more than Steffi Graf's 22 Grand Slam singles titles.


Argument pro-Steffi: Steffi has her Grand Slams titles more evenly distributed by surface than Serena. Steffi has the quadruple Career Grand Slam (meaning she has won at least 4 times each Grand Slam), while Serena "only" has the triple Career Grand Slam (she has won at least 3 times each Grand Slam).

I will repeat it, Steffi is the only player in the history of tennis to have won at least 4 times each Grand Slam title.

 

[JackGates]

You can't compare eras. This slow court era is mostly about fitness skills and not about shotmaking, that's why the goat argument is very flawed.

 

[VaporDude95]

You can't compare eras. This slow court era is mostly about fitness skills and not about shotmaking, that's why the goat argument is very flawed.

I wouldn’t call fitness a “skill”. Anyone can become fit.

Not everyone can gain the skills needed to become the next Federer, for example. That stuff is gifted.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

 

[BeatlesFan]

Steffi, Steffi and Steffi.

 

[zverev2018]

It should have been Serena vs Monica

Even with the Monica stabbing taking out the woman who won 7 of the last 8 slams she entered including a 3-1 slam final record vs Steffi, Serena was STILL able to pass Steffi’s inflated 22 slams.

 

[Steve0904]

No need to kick a nation when they're down OP. They did just get knocked out of the World Cup you know?

 

[buscemi]

Who was greater?

Argument pro-Serena: 23 Grand Slam singles titles, one more than Steffi Graf's 22 Grand Slam singles titles.


Argument pro-Steffi: Steffi has her Grand Slams titles more evenly distributed by surface than Serena. Steffi has the quadruple Career Grand Slam (meaning she has won at least 4 times each Grand Slam), while Serena "only" has the triple Career Grand Slam (she has won at least 3 times each Grand Slam).

I will repeat it, Steffi is the only player in the history of tennis to have won at least 4 times each Grand Slam title.

Serena. Seles was dominating at the time of the stabbing, and it takes increasing levels of speculation to conclude that, in the absence of the stabbing, (1) Graf would have become a stronger #2 behind Seles; (2) Graf would have joined Seles at the top of the game; (3) Graf would have slightly overtaken Seles; and (4) Graf would have significantly overtaken Seles.

 

[roger presley]

Steffi, Steffi and Steffi.

Agree!

 

[tennis_pro]

Graf by a country mile. Serena's competition is just ludicrously bad.

 

[EloQuent]

3 CGS v 4 isn't a huge dif. But Steffi has the weeks at #1 - esp the insane 270 consecutive (Edit- looks like I'm wrong on this, the rest stand). She has the CYGS. She won 22 slams before the age of 30. Just having 1 more overall doesn't beat that.

 

[JackGates]

I wouldn’t call fitness a “skill”. Anyone can become fit.

Not everyone can gain the skills needed to become the next Federer, for example. That stuff is gifted.

Ok, in that case all sports are worthless, since nobody can become close to Kasparov or Einstein.

 

[buscemi]

3 CGS v 4 isn't a huge dif. But Steffi has the weeks at #1 - esp the insane 270 consecutive. She has the CYGS. She won 22 slams before the age of 30. Just having 1 more overall doesn't beat that.

Aren't Steffi and Serena tied at the top with 186 consecutive weeks at #1?

 

[-NN-]

I don't trust that Serena has been a clean athlete, so Graf.

Graf anyway on accomplishments regardless.

 

[ibbi]

Serena. Seles was dominating at the time of the stabbing, and it takes increasing levels of speculation to conclude that, in the absence of the stabbing, (1) Graf would have become a stronger #2 behind Seles; (2) Graf would have joined Seles at the top of the game; (3) Graf would have slightly overtaken Seles; and (4) Graf would have significantly overtaken Seles.

I don't really like weighing in on this argument because my avatar is like a brand on my forehead that makes me seem ('seem' ) biased, but it doesn't take much speculation.

Seles was dominating tennis, she was not dominating Graf. Graf had all kinds of struggles during the period where Seles became the face that ran the place, but she still beat Monica more often than not on the occasions that they met, and she was still in that period where Seles was the almighty closer to her on clay than Monica was to her on grass.

What can for sure be said is that Steffi would surely have fewer majors than she does if Seles had never been attacked, but like with Chris and Martina, the fewer she had would mean so much more. Serena's not had anybody like that since at the very latest...2013. More accurately probably more like 2010?

 

[TMF]

Who was greater?

Argument pro-Serena: 23 Grand Slam singles titles, one more than Steffi Graf's 22 Grand Slam singles titles.


Argument pro-Steffi: Steffi has her Grand Slams titles more evenly distributed by surface than Serena. Steffi has the quadruple Career Grand Slam (meaning she has won at least 4 times each Grand Slam), while Serena "only" has the triple Career Grand Slam (she has won at least 3 times each Grand Slam).

I will repeat it, Steffi is the only player in the history of tennis to have won at least 4 times each Grand Slam title.

While Serena has only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's behind Graf is so many other achievements. Martina and Chris are above her in many area too.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Serena Williams 23
2 Steffi Graf 22
3 Martina Navratilova 18
3 Chris Evert 18
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34
2 Martina Navrátilová 32
3 Steffi Graf 31
4 Serena Williams 29
5 Evonne Goolagong 18
6 Venus Williams 14
7 Monica Seles 13
8 Margaret Court 12
8 Martina Hingis 12
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12

Consecutive GS finals
1. Steffi Graf 13
2. Martina Navratilova 11
3. Margaret Court 6
3. Chris Evert 6
3. Monica Seles 6
6. Steffi Graf 5
6. Martina Hingis 5
8. Martina Navratilova 4
8. Chris Evert 4
8. Arantxa Sánchez 4
8. Serena Williams 4
8. Venus Williams 4
8. Justine Henin 4

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 101
5 Serena Williams 72
6 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
7 Billie Jean King 67
8 Virginia Wade 55
= Lindsay Davenport 55
10 Monica Seles 53

Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Serena Williams 319
4 Chris Evert 260
5 Martina Hingis 209
6 Monica Seles 178
7 Justine Henin 117
8 Lindsay Davenport 98
9 Caroline Wozniacki 67
10 Victoria Azarenka 51

Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf 186
= Serena Williams 186
3 Martina Navratilova 156
4 Chris Evert 113
5 Monica Seles 91
6 Martina Navratilova 90
7 Steffi Graf 87
8 Martina Hingis 80
9 Chris Evert 76
10 Martina Hingis 73

Year end No. 1 players
player year
1 Steffi Graf 8
2 Martina Navratilova 7
3 Chris Evert 5
= Serena Williams 5
5 Lindsay Davenport 4
6 Justine Henin 3
6 Martina Hingis 3
6 Monica Seles 3
9 Caroline Wozniacki 2
10 Jelena Jankovic 1
10 Victoria Azarenka 1

Year-End Championships
1. Martina Navratilova 8
2. Steffi Graf 5
= Serena Williams 5
4. Chris Evert 4
5. Monica Seles 3
6. Kim Clijsters 3
7. Gabriela Sabatini 2
8. Martina Hingis 2
9. Evonne Goolagong Cawley 2
10. Justine Henin 2

All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins-Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593-56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1304-144 90.05
3 Steffi Graf 900-115 88.67
4 Martina Navratilova 1442-219 86.82
5 Serena Williams 788-132 85.65
6 Monica Seles 595-122 82.98
7 Justine Henin 525-115 82.03
8 Billie Jean King 695-155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704-165 81.01

Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1304
3 Steffi Graf 900
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Serena Williams 785
6 Venus Williams 763
7 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
8 Lindsay Davenport 753
9 Conchita Martínez 739
10 Evonne Goolagong 704

Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41

Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9

Winning Streaks
1. Martina Navratilova 74
2. Steffi Graf 66
3. Martina Navratilova 58
4. Chris Evert 56
5. Martina Navratilova 54
6. Steffi Graf 46
7. Steffi Graf 45
8. Martina Navratilova 41
9. Martina Navratilova 39
10. Martina Navratilova 38

Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Sharapova (2003-2013)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
7. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
7. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
7. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
7. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
7. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
12. 12 - Martina Hingis (1997)
16. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
16. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
16. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
16. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
16. 11 - Serena Williams (2013)

 

[EloQuent]

Aren't Steffi and Serena tied at the top with 186 consecutive weeks at #1?

Huh, so this is odd, because for the longest time Wikipedia had the 270 number. The CYGS and overall stronger consistency still wins imo.

 

[Pheasant]

This one is going to come down to comparing their competition, which is something that I haven't broken down before. Let's take a look:

Williams:

17-12 vs Venus
19-2 vs Sharapova
17-4 vs Azarenka
10-4 vs Davenport
8-6 vs Henin
7-5 vs Demenieva



Graf

29-11 vs Sabatini
28-8 vs Sanchez Vicario
29-4 Graf vs Novotna
9-9 vs Navratilova
6-7 vs Evert
9-3 vs Shriver
10-5 vs Seles

I think that their competition is similar. Graf didn't see Evert's peak and she caught a small part of Martini's peak. But even then, they were tough competitors. Seles was a beast. But Graf caught a small part of her peak because she was stabbed at age 19 1/4 years old. Serena had it tough with Venus and Henin, a couple of heavyweights. Sharapova was good too. On one hand, Steffi played a lot more legends. On the other hand, she didn't face them much at their peak. I'd call this a wash.

Let's look at their stats:
Graf:
899-108, .893 overall
208-63, .768 vs top 10

Serena
785-132, .856 overall
169-67, .716 vs top 10


With that being said, I think that Serena hit higher levels. But Steffi was much more consistent, which includes walking away with the Golden Slam in 1988.

The thing with Graf is that she crammed so many incredible achievements into a small time frame. Graf went to 13 consecutive slam finals. This is absurd. She also won 8 of 9 slams, which is also absurd. And Steffi was closed to winning back-to-back calendar slams in 1989. Her only chink in the armor was a loss in the 1989 FO final in 3 sets. This type of domination is absurd.

Steffi has the more impressive resume. Steffi had 21 slam trophies by the end of her age 27 season. This is remarkable. I give this to Steffi. I think that Serena still has a long ways to go.

 

[Tennisanity]

This slow court era is mostly about fitness skills and not about shotmaking

This is why clay is meaningless.

 

[Steve0904]

While Serena has only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's behind Graf is so many other achievements. Martina and Chris are above her in many area too.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Serena Williams 23
2 Steffi Graf 22
3 Martina Navratilova 18
3 Chris Evert 18
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34
2 Martina Navrátilová 32
3 Steffi Graf 31
4 Serena Williams 29
5 Evonne Goolagong 18
6 Venus Williams 14
7 Monica Seles 13
8 Margaret Court 12
8 Martina Hingis 12
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12

Consecutive GS finals
1. Steffi Graf 13
2. Martina Navratilova 11
3. Margaret Court 6
3. Chris Evert 6
3. Monica Seles 6
6. Steffi Graf 5
6. Martina Hingis 5
8. Martina Navratilova 4
8. Chris Evert 4
8. Arantxa Sánchez 4
8. Serena Williams 4
8. Venus Williams 4
8. Justine Henin 4

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 101
5 Serena Williams 72
6 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
7 Billie Jean King 67
8 Virginia Wade 55
= Lindsay Davenport 55
10 Monica Seles 53

Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Serena Williams 319
4 Chris Evert 260
5 Martina Hingis 209
6 Monica Seles 178
7 Justine Henin 117
8 Lindsay Davenport 98
9 Caroline Wozniacki 67
10 Victoria Azarenka 51

Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf 186
= Serena Williams 186
3 Martina Navratilova 156
4 Chris Evert 113
5 Monica Seles 91
6 Martina Navratilova 90
7 Steffi Graf 87
8 Martina Hingis 80
9 Chris Evert 76
10 Martina Hingis 73

Year end No. 1 players
player year
1 Steffi Graf 8
2 Martina Navratilova 7
3 Chris Evert 5
= Serena Williams 5
5 Lindsay Davenport 4
6 Justine Henin 3
6 Martina Hingis 3
6 Monica Seles 3
9 Caroline Wozniacki 2
10 Jelena Jankovic 1
10 Victoria Azarenka 1

Year-End Championships
1. Martina Navratilova 8
2. Steffi Graf 5
= Serena Williams 5
4. Chris Evert 4
5. Monica Seles 3
6. Kim Clijsters 3
7. Gabriela Sabatini 2
8. Martina Hingis 2
9. Evonne Goolagong Cawley 2
10. Justine Henin 2

All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins-Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593-56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1304-144 90.05
3 Steffi Graf 900-115 88.67
4 Martina Navratilova 1442-219 86.82
5 Serena Williams 788-132 85.65
6 Monica Seles 595-122 82.98
7 Justine Henin 525-115 82.03
8 Billie Jean King 695-155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704-165 81.01

Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1304
3 Steffi Graf 900
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Serena Williams 785
6 Venus Williams 763
7 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
8 Lindsay Davenport 753
9 Conchita Martínez 739
10 Evonne Goolagong 704

Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41

Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9

Winning Streaks
1. Martina Navratilova 74
2. Steffi Graf 66
3. Martina Navratilova 58
4. Chris Evert 56
5. Martina Navratilova 54
6. Steffi Graf 46
7. Steffi Graf 45
8. Martina Navratilova 41
9. Martina Navratilova 39
10. Martina Navratilova 38

Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Sharapova (2003-2013)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
7. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
7. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
7. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
7. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
7. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
12. 12 - Martina Hingis (1997)
16. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
16. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
16. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
16. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
16. 11 - Serena Williams (2013)

You tell 'em TMF! Atta boy!

 

[-NN-]

A lot of work for Serena to do to catch Graf. Can she do it??

While Serena has only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's behind Graf is so many other achievements. Martina and Chris are above her in many area too.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Serena Williams 23
2 Steffi Graf 22
3 Martina Navratilova 18
3 Chris Evert 18
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34
2 Martina Navrátilová 32
3 Steffi Graf 31
4 Serena Williams 29
5 Evonne Goolagong 18
6 Venus Williams 14
7 Monica Seles 13
8 Margaret Court 12
8 Martina Hingis 12
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12

Consecutive GS finals
1. Steffi Graf 13
2. Martina Navratilova 11
3. Margaret Court 6
3. Chris Evert 6
3. Monica Seles 6
6. Steffi Graf 5
6. Martina Hingis 5
8. Martina Navratilova 4
8. Chris Evert 4
8. Arantxa Sánchez 4
8. Serena Williams 4
8. Venus Williams 4
8. Justine Henin 4

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 101
5 Serena Williams 72
6 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
7 Billie Jean King 67
8 Virginia Wade 55
= Lindsay Davenport 55
10 Monica Seles 53

Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Serena Williams 319
4 Chris Evert 260
5 Martina Hingis 209
6 Monica Seles 178
7 Justine Henin 117
8 Lindsay Davenport 98
9 Caroline Wozniacki 67
10 Victoria Azarenka 51

Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf 186
= Serena Williams 186
3 Martina Navratilova 156
4 Chris Evert 113
5 Monica Seles 91
6 Martina Navratilova 90
7 Steffi Graf 87
8 Martina Hingis 80
9 Chris Evert 76
10 Martina Hingis 73

Year end No. 1 players
player year
1 Steffi Graf 8
2 Martina Navratilova 7
3 Chris Evert 5
= Serena Williams 5
5 Lindsay Davenport 4
6 Justine Henin 3
6 Martina Hingis 3
6 Monica Seles 3
9 Caroline Wozniacki 2
10 Jelena Jankovic 1
10 Victoria Azarenka 1

Year-End Championships
1. Martina Navratilova 8
2. Steffi Graf 5
= Serena Williams 5
4. Chris Evert 4
5. Monica Seles 3
6. Kim Clijsters 3
7. Gabriela Sabatini 2
8. Martina Hingis 2
9. Evonne Goolagong Cawley 2
10. Justine Henin 2

All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins-Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593-56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1304-144 90.05
3 Steffi Graf 900-115 88.67
4 Martina Navratilova 1442-219 86.82
5 Serena Williams 788-132 85.65
6 Monica Seles 595-122 82.98
7 Justine Henin 525-115 82.03
8 Billie Jean King 695-155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704-165 81.01

Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1304
3 Steffi Graf 900
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Serena Williams 785
6 Venus Williams 763
7 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
8 Lindsay Davenport 753
9 Conchita Martínez 739
10 Evonne Goolagong 704

Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41

Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9

Winning Streaks
1. Martina Navratilova 74
2. Steffi Graf 66
3. Martina Navratilova 58
4. Chris Evert 56
5. Martina Navratilova 54
6. Steffi Graf 46
7. Steffi Graf 45
8. Martina Navratilova 41
9. Martina Navratilova 39
10. Martina Navratilova 38

Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Sharapova (2003-2013)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
7. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
7. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
7. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
7. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
7. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
12. 12 - Martina Hingis (1997)
16. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
16. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
16. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
16. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
16. 11 - Serena Williams (2013)

Almost impossible to disagree. Remember when you constantly used to post lists and I used to constantly berate you? Those were the days.

 

[Steve0904]

A lot of work for Serena to do to catch Graf. Can she do it??



Almost impossible to disagree. Remember when you constantly used to post lists and I used to constantly berate you? Those were the days.

You've seen the light now. It will all be ok. Amen.

 

[buscemi]

I don't really like weighing in on this argument because my avatar is like a brand on my forehead that makes me seem ('seem' ) biased, but it doesn't take much speculation.

Seles was dominating tennis, she was not dominating Graf. Graf had all kinds of struggles during the period where Seles became the face that ran the place, but she still beat Monica more often than not on the occasions that they met, and she was still in that period where Seles was the almighty closer to her on clay than Monica was to her on grass.

What can for sure be said is that Steffi would surely have fewer majors than she does if Seles had never been attacked, but like with Chris and Martina, the fewer she had would mean so much more. Serena's not had anybody like that since at the very latest...2013. More accurately probably more like 2010?

True and false. Graf was 6-4 against Seles before the stabbing, but that includes a 3-0 record when Seles was 15 and a 3-4 record (1-3 in Majors) when Seles was 16-19. And Graf did have struggles during some of that period, but she was playing really well for the year between Hamburg 1992-Hilton Head 1993 (i.e., right before the stabbing), and Seles still won the 1992 French (over Graf), the 1992 U.S. Open, the 1992 YEC, and the 1993 Australian Open (over Graf). Again, it's not impossible to say that Graf would have stemmed the tide at that point or maybe even matched or exceeded Seles, but it does take speculation to say that something would have changed from what had just transpired.

 

[Sport]

While Serena has only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's behind Graf is so many other achievements. Martina and Chris are above her in many area too.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Serena Williams 23
2 Steffi Graf 22
3 Martina Navratilova 18
3 Chris Evert 18
5 Margaret Court 11

Well, Margaret Court has 24 Grand Slam singles titles, not 11.

 

[JackGates]

I don't trust that Serena has been a clean athlete, so Graf.

Graf anyway on accomplishments regardless.

I don't care, the same argument applies to Lance. He owned other roided users, he is still the man.

 

[heftylefty]

Graf by a country mile. Serena's competition is just ludicrously bad.

Name any of Graf competitors that would have gave Williams trouble.

 

[tennis_pro]

Name any of Graf competitors that would have gave Williams trouble.

No offence but just by looking at your profile pic I know that this discussion would be redundant.

 

[TMF]

A lot of work for Serena to do to catch Graf. Can she do it??



Almost impossible to disagree. Remember when you constantly used to post lists and I used to constantly berate you? Those were the days.

Yeah I remember, and so did other Serena fans berated me.

 

[ibbi]

Graf was 6-4 against Seles before the stabbing, but that includes a 3-0 record when Seles was 15 and a 3-4 record (1-3 in Majors) when Seles was 16-19.

I'm not talking about the whole rivalry up to the stabbing, just 1991 and 92 when Seles was on top. It was 3-2 to Steffi, and she beat her on grass, clay, and hard!

 

[Deon Sanders]

Steffi Graf never threatened the life of on court officials.

Serena forever has her beat

Checkmate

 

[-NN-]

Steffi Graf never threatened the life of on court officials.

Serena forever has her beat

Checkmate

/thread

It's ovah.

 

[buscemi]

I'm not talking about the whole rivalry up to the stabbing, just 1991 and 92 when Seles was on top. It was 3-2 to Steffi, and she beat her on grass, clay, and hard!

Fair enough, but Seles still won two out of the last three and was 2-1 in the matches at Majors during that stretch.

 

[JackGates]

Graf by a country mile. Serena's competition is just ludicrously bad.

Ok, Graf's main rival that was owning her was stabbed. That's like Rafa being out of the picture for Federer lol, Graf had it easy.

 

[tennis_pro]

Ok, Graf's main rival that was owning her was stabbed. That's like Rafa being out of the picture for Federer lol, Graf had it easy.

Who's Serena's main rival again? Safarova, Jankovic or Zvonareva? Or maybe Sharapova who hasn't beaten her in the last 14 years?

The WTA has been in dire straits since 2008. How many Slams has Serena won since then?

 

[TMF]

Well, Margaret Court has 24 Grand Slam singles titles, not 11.

I only count in the open-era because people were saying Court won 11 AO during weak era. You could say it's unfair for her since women's tennis never a split fields(amateur/pro) during the pre-open era unlike men's tennis. I might change my mind by including all the slams count, including other female player's accomplishment in those days too.

 

[Steve0904]

I don't really like weighing in on this argument because my avatar is like a brand on my forehead that makes me seem ('seem' ) biased, but it doesn't take much speculation.

Seles was dominating tennis, she was not dominating Graf. Graf had all kinds of struggles during the period where Seles became the face that ran the place, but she still beat Monica more often than not on the occasions that they met, and she was still in that period where Seles was the almighty closer to her on clay than Monica was to her on grass.

What can for sure be said is that Steffi would surely have fewer majors than she does if Seles had never been attacked, but like with Chris and Martina, the fewer she had would mean so much more. Serena's not had anybody like that since at the very latest...2013. More accurately probably more like 2010?

Re: The bolded. Isn't that the same as saying Federer was dominating tennis, but he wasn't dominating Nadal? In that case, Federer is seen as the dominating force of that time, just like Seles for a time.

Anyway, I don't like chiming in much here either because I didn't watch Graf, and I don't like Serena. Just thought I might point out the above.

 

[Phoenix1983]

I don't really like weighing in on this argument because my avatar is like a brand on my forehead that makes me seem ('seem' ) biased, but it doesn't take much speculation.

Seles was dominating tennis, she was not dominating Graf. Graf had all kinds of struggles during the period where Seles became the face that ran the place, but she still beat Monica more often than not on the occasions that they met, and she was still in that period where Seles was the almighty closer to her on clay than Monica was to her on grass.

What can for sure be said is that Steffi would surely have fewer majors than she does if Seles had never been attacked, but like with Chris and Martina, the fewer she had would mean so much more. Serena's not had anybody like that since at the very latest...2013. More accurately probably more like 2010?

Agreed. I have speculated previously that Steffi and Monica would each finish with 18 majors, were it not for the stabbing - hence a Chris/Martina-esque rivalry. And Steffi's 18 in that scenario would mean just as much as the 22 she accumulated in reality.

Thus she would still have been the GOAT, pre-Serena.

Serena is still GOAT though.

 

[Man of steel]

While Serena has only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's behind Graf is so many other achievements. Martina and Chris are above her in many area too.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Serena Williams 23
2 Steffi Graf 22
3 Martina Navratilova 18
3 Chris Evert 18
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34
2 Martina Navrátilová 32
3 Steffi Graf 31
4 Serena Williams 29
5 Evonne Goolagong 18
6 Venus Williams 14
7 Monica Seles 13
8 Margaret Court 12
8 Martina Hingis 12
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12

Consecutive GS finals
1. Steffi Graf 13
2. Martina Navratilova 11
3. Margaret Court 6
3. Chris Evert 6
3. Monica Seles 6
6. Steffi Graf 5
6. Martina Hingis 5
8. Martina Navratilova 4
8. Chris Evert 4
8. Arantxa Sánchez 4
8. Serena Williams 4
8. Venus Williams 4
8. Justine Henin 4

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 101
5 Serena Williams 72
6 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
7 Billie Jean King 67
8 Virginia Wade 55
= Lindsay Davenport 55
10 Monica Seles 53

Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Serena Williams 319
4 Chris Evert 260
5 Martina Hingis 209
6 Monica Seles 178
7 Justine Henin 117
8 Lindsay Davenport 98
9 Caroline Wozniacki 67
10 Victoria Azarenka 51

Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf 186
= Serena Williams 186
3 Martina Navratilova 156
4 Chris Evert 113
5 Monica Seles 91
6 Martina Navratilova 90
7 Steffi Graf 87
8 Martina Hingis 80
9 Chris Evert 76
10 Martina Hingis 73

Year end No. 1 players
player year
1 Steffi Graf 8
2 Martina Navratilova 7
3 Chris Evert 5
= Serena Williams 5
5 Lindsay Davenport 4
6 Justine Henin 3
6 Martina Hingis 3
6 Monica Seles 3
9 Caroline Wozniacki 2
10 Jelena Jankovic 1
10 Victoria Azarenka 1

Year-End Championships
1. Martina Navratilova 8
2. Steffi Graf 5
= Serena Williams 5
4. Chris Evert 4
5. Monica Seles 3
6. Kim Clijsters 3
7. Gabriela Sabatini 2
8. Martina Hingis 2
9. Evonne Goolagong Cawley 2
10. Justine Henin 2

All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins-Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593-56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1304-144 90.05
3 Steffi Graf 900-115 88.67
4 Martina Navratilova 1442-219 86.82
5 Serena Williams 788-132 85.65
6 Monica Seles 595-122 82.98
7 Justine Henin 525-115 82.03
8 Billie Jean King 695-155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704-165 81.01

Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1304
3 Steffi Graf 900
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Serena Williams 785
6 Venus Williams 763
7 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
8 Lindsay Davenport 753
9 Conchita Martínez 739
10 Evonne Goolagong 704

Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41

Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9

Winning Streaks
1. Martina Navratilova 74
2. Steffi Graf 66
3. Martina Navratilova 58
4. Chris Evert 56
5. Martina Navratilova 54
6. Steffi Graf 46
7. Steffi Graf 45
8. Martina Navratilova 41
9. Martina Navratilova 39
10. Martina Navratilova 38

Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Sharapova (2003-2013)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
7. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
7. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
7. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
7. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
7. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
12. 12 - Martina Hingis (1997)
16. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
16. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
16. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
16. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
16. 11 - Serena Williams (2013)

This is singlehandedly one of the most useless statistics in sporting history.

Most of those will never be reached and are unobtainable.
You'll never see another woman win 21 tournaments in a year let alone even by the men.

Or 74 match win streaks.

All because women's tennis was pretty much still nearly at an amatuer level even though it was supposedly "Professional".

Times have changed
It's difference era for sports in general.

 

[EloQuent]

Name any of Graf competitors that would have gave Williams trouble.

What about the reverse?

 

[JackGates]

Who's Serena's main rival again? Safarova, Jankovic or Zvonareva? Or maybe Sharapova who hasn't beaten her in the last 14 years?

The WTA has been in dire straits since 2008. How many Slams has Serena won since then?

What is this main rival fallacy? The entire tour are your rivals.

 

[EloQuent]

The entire tour are your rivals.

huh now do this for Federer 04-07

 

[BeatlesFan]

Serena was STILL able to pass Steffi’s inflated 22 slams.

There's no such thing as an "inflated slam." The winner can only face the opponent in front of them. Do we subtract from McEnroe's major total because he faced hapless Chris Lewis in a Wimbledon final? Or deduct slams from Nadal who faced utter mugs in finals like Anderson/Puerta? How about taking away some of Fed's majors because he faced Baghdatis or Gonzo? If you think Steffi had "inflated" slams, look at the pile of garbage opponents Serena faced in countless major finals.

 

[tennis_pro]

What is this main rival fallacy? The entire tour are your rivals.

Wat? You brought this up jackass.

 

[Man of steel]

What about the reverse?

Pre prime Venus has wins against her.

Hingis has wins against her.

Davenport has 6 wins against her and she was a terrible mover (great ballstriker though).

Clijsters would trouble graf. Clijsters has a winning record against every player she's played bar Serena and henin iirc.

Graf was extraordinary for her speed, movement and power for her time but compared to serena's generation where there were multiple players with all those attributes with some bringing more of some of those attributes, it's doesn't make her that extraordinary any more.

 

[Sport]

Re: The bolded. Isn't that the same as saying Federer was dominating tennis, but he wasn't dominating Nadal? In that case, Federer is seen as the dominating force of that time, just like Seles for a time.

Anyway, I don't like chiming in much here either because I didn't watch Graf, and I don't like Serena. Just thought I might point out the above.

Interesting comment @Steve0904. But I wanted to point out that Federer never dominated tennis overall like Graf did. Graf won at least 4 Grand Slams on each surface. Graff also won all 4 Grand Slams in 1988 and won Grand Slams on the three surfaces (hard, clay and grass) in 1993, 1995 and 1996. When did Federer win Grand Slams on the three surfaces during the same calendar year? When did Federer win at least 4 Grand Slams on each surface? Federer dominated non-clay tennis, not tennis overall, during 3 years. Federer dominated non-clay tennis during his 04-05, 05-06 and 06-07 seasons.

 

[Sport]

While Serena has only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's behind Graf is so many other achievements. Martina and Chris are above her in many area too.

Most GS titles
player total
1 Serena Williams 23
2 Steffi Graf 22
3 Martina Navratilova 18
3 Chris Evert 18
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34
2 Martina Navrátilová 32
3 Steffi Graf 31
4 Serena Williams 29
5 Evonne Goolagong 18
6 Venus Williams 14
7 Monica Seles 13
8 Margaret Court 12
8 Martina Hingis 12
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12

Consecutive GS finals
1. Steffi Graf 13
2. Martina Navratilova 11
3. Margaret Court 6
3. Chris Evert 6
3. Monica Seles 6
6. Steffi Graf 5
6. Martina Hingis 5
8. Martina Navratilova 4
8. Chris Evert 4
8. Arantxa Sánchez 4
8. Serena Williams 4
8. Venus Williams 4
8. Justine Henin 4

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 101
5 Serena Williams 72
6 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
7 Billie Jean King 67
8 Virginia Wade 55
= Lindsay Davenport 55
10 Monica Seles 53

@TMF, thanks for sharing your stats. Personally, I think some of your stats categories are almost irrelevant for a GOAT debate, or at least less relevant than the golden criterion of greatness: the overall number of Grand Slams.

1. Consecutive GS finals
I don't get why is the "consecutive" label relevant. So a hypothetical player with 11 consecutive GS finals (but only 13 GS finals overall) would be better than another hypothetical player with 30 GS finals overall (only 4 of them being consecutive)?

2. GS finals
Most people consider GS finals less relevant than GS titles:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/on-the-relevance-of-finals-and-semifinals.619584/

3. Career titles overall
Most consider that GS titles total is more relevant than titles total overall:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/purely-hypothetical-question.619395/

 

[TMF]

This is singlehandedly one of the most useless statistics in sporting history.

Most of those will never be reached and are unobtainable.
You'll never see another woman win 21 tournaments in a year let alone even by the men.

Or 74 match win streaks.

All because women's tennis was pretty much still nearly at an amatuer level even though it was supposedly "Professional".

Times have changed
It's difference era for sports in general.

Useless only to Serena fan except the slam count(and I didn't include Court 24).

Most records might never be reached are the testament of their greatness, determination, passion and thus they earn the goat claim. Serena had played tennis for over two decades and there's no excuse.

You can't compare men's with women's tennis. The difference is women's tennis always had a full field while the men's had two separate fields(amateur/pro) until it was merged when the open-era started in 1968.

 

[Man of steel]

Who's Serena's main rival again? Safarova, Jankovic or Zvonareva? Or maybe Sharapova who hasn't beaten her in the last 14 years?

The WTA has been in dire straits since 2008. How many Slams has Serena won since then?

Have you been watching tennis. Like in the last 5 years. Zvonereva and Jankovic haven't been relevant since between 2008-2010. That's like 2-3 year's.

Who was Steffi's rival post seles stabbing and how many slams did she win straight after the stabbing?

 

[JackGates]

Wat? You brought this up jackass.

I don't know much about women tennis. I respect ABMK. He is the greatest on this forum to analyze the level of play and eras. So, I will have to go with his opinion, because he will most likely be correct.

So, my opinion is whatever ABMK says.

 

[TMF]

@TMF, thanks for sharing you stats. Personally, I think some of your stats categories are almost irrelevant for a GOAT debate, or at least less relevant than the golden criterion of greatness: the overall number of Grand Slams.

1. Consecutive GS finals
I don't get why is the "consecutive" label relevant. So a hypothetical player with 11 consecutive GS finals (but only 13 GS finals overall) would be better than another hypothetical player with 30 GS finals overall (only 4 of them being consecutive)?

2. GS finals
Most people consider GS finals less relevant than GS titles:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/on-the-relevance-of-finals-and-semifinals.619584/

3. Career titles overall
Most consider that GS titles total is more relevant than titles total overall:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/purely-hypothetical-question.619395/

@Sport
GS wins is the most important criteria, but making finals, streaks/records are still important. Federer 10 consecutive slam finals is one of the most impressive streaks. So is his 23 consecutive semifinals. If it isn't, you wouldn't hear tennis commentators often commented his streaks during play-by-play. It does influence tennis experts when evaluating the player's placement in ATG. No one say streaks are important as actual winning the tournament, but it measures consistency, focus, mentally strong and stability, maintain injured free. Most pro players can't even make one slam final in their entire career, so it's make sense that making final is impressive. I think Chris 34 and Federer 30 finals are very impressive. Casual fans don't dismissed how great this feat is, but rather not aware of them, and that's is sad.

Total titles is another achievement, although not as huge as total slam titles, but still relevant.