MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Damn, Martina was a beast 
Revisiting the debate: Serena Williams vs Steffi Graf
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mxmx
Hall of Fame
To me Graf didn't face weak opposition as opposed to Serena who faced equal quality players PLUS weak ones. She proved herself to dominate whatever was put in front of her, great AND weak. She proved herself more to me than Graf. And Graf faced my favorite female players ever...Hingis/Capriati/Seles.
To me Federer is much the same. Even though I believe Sampras would beat him head to head, Federer has proven himself great in more than one era. More to me than Djokovic or Nadal has. Djokovic can still prove himself, but only if REAL competition of REAL quality comes to face him. Somehow I do not believe his stats will make him greater (to me) than Federer/Sampras.
mxmx
Hall of Fame
One then may argue that Seles, with even a shorter career, is thus the greatest.
D
Deleted member 22147
Guest
If they're not harder to win, then why didn't she win more of them?
D
Deleted member 22147
Guest
Seles was a pro in 1988 or 1989 and retired in 2003....?
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
To be fair, Serena never had one of her fans stab her biggest rival with a knife.
Then again, she never had a big long-running rival as Graf did...
Well... she had a proper rival for 3 years until of course her fan stabbed her in the back and helped make Graf a much bigger legend than she deserved.
Hamburg 1993.
Then again, she never had a big long-running rival as Graf did...
Well... she had a proper rival for 3 years until of course her fan stabbed her in the back and helped make Graf a much bigger legend than she deserved.
clout
Hall of Fame
Seles is the one player that makes this debate difficult given how dominant she was in the two years prior to the incident.
Thing is, it’s not like Serena has had world beating comp either. Henin left in 2007, Venus is like 17 years removed from her peak, Sharapova was not the same after the shoulder injury, and players like Clijsters and Azarenka are on and off the tour too frequently to consistently do damage.
If we just objectively look at statistics, Sheffield blows Serena out of the water with the exception of one extra major which took her years and years to win
It's really 2.5 years of dominance for Seles,
-starting with the Virginia Slims of California in October 1990 (beating Navratilova in the final) followed by winning the WTA Championships; and
-ending with the stabbing at the German Open on April 30, 1993
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
So Graf faced a post prime Navratilova, it's all good.
Sanchez goes 4-3 against a young Serena and that's proof that Serena is overrated.
TTW logic at its finest.
Sanchez goes 4-3 against a young Serena and that's proof that Serena is overrated.
TTW logic at its finest.
Its funny cause all these GOATS have big what ifs that surround them
Serena- What if Henin doesn't retire, or Clisters- I think this is the least what ifs because they chose to and I know Henin body was breaking down
Graf- What if Seles doesn't get stabbed
But to me the biggest what if is Evert- What if the Aussie open was important like it is today and if she plays those French opens that she could have.
To me everyone would be chasing Evert most likely. But you don't 100 percent know that. Cause Evert could have gone to one of those Aussie opens and blown out her knee and never been right again. So who knows.
Serena- What if Henin doesn't retire, or Clisters- I think this is the least what ifs because they chose to and I know Henin body was breaking down
Graf- What if Seles doesn't get stabbed
But to me the biggest what if is Evert- What if the Aussie open was important like it is today and if she plays those French opens that she could have.
To me everyone would be chasing Evert most likely. But you don't 100 percent know that. Cause Evert could have gone to one of those Aussie opens and blown out her knee and never been right again. So who knows.
quirotkicks
Rookie
And that is the problem I have with people mentioning for Navratilova "oh she played when it wasn't just about the 4 slams". Since that in fact hurt Evert a lot more than Navratilova. Navratilova played all 4 slams every single year in her true prime from 80-89 so she hardly missed out on anything. It was Evert who skipped 3 French Opens she was certain to win (76-78) and the Australian every year from 75-80 when she was the dominant player. Had both played all 4 majors back then Martina would have maybe 19 slams and Evert something like 24 or 25. So by that logic Evert would not only be ranked as the possible GOAT but firmly above Navratilova atleast as top of that era.
Although we also could say what if Austin stayed healthy she would have had a huge impact on both Evert and Martina. So yea its all kinda dumb at one point.
The missed Majors for Evert and, to a lesser extent, Navratilova, seem like valid points. Austin, Henin, and Clijsters are lesser factors. Players get injured and have bodies that can't hold up all the time, and there also wasn't a huge reason to believe that any of the three would be racking up Majors at the time(s) they retired. Seles being stabbed was different, though. That was not something natural, and she was completely dominating the game and getting better at the time she was stabbed.
Yea I agree when you are talking about what ifs as far as players getting hurt or losing interests in playing I mean you can say that about so many. I mean what if Safin doesn't lose interest, what if Soderline doesn't get mono. Who knows what slam counts would be even among the GOATS. So yea the Seles stabbing and the Evert not playing Aussie and French to me are the biggest what ifs.
Graf played chrissy 13 times (7-6). If henin is serena's rival (14 matches) i can see chrissy being one for steffi as well. Until the end, the matches were very split
Head To Head | Chris Evert vs Steffi Graf H2H
Head To Head. Chris Evert vs Steffi Graf all matches, with stats on their H2H rivalry. ATP & WTA Chris Evert head to head tennis search.www.stevegtennis.com
Graf is just missing a match with Court and she would of played the top5 goat list. But ya, weak comp
Graf was 8-6 against Evert, the WTA keeps excluding the time Steffi beat Evert at the 87 Fed Cup.
Get over it really, Seles did, so should the rest. Closure is healthy.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
I smell a distinct whiff of Jon Stewart here... Freedom for murderers, ey?
Seles never got over it, neither would you...
So easy to virtue-signal on someone else's behalf.
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of course not freedom for murderers, the guy should still be in jail.
i have gotten over worse things than what seles went through. don't make assumptions.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
He got off scot-free. No prison term. For attempted murder.
In Germany.
As a German.
Who extended the slam count for a German player.
You find that not worth discussing?
quirotkicks
Rookie
Yes I agree. The whole injuries thing or early retirements is kind of pointless. Yes maybe Graf was unlucky she was injury prone, or Serena maybe had it easier than she would have had with Henin, Clijsters, and Hingis all retiring so young (not nearly to the extent some think, fact is she owns all those great women minus Henin on clay), but those are natural parts of the game. The only way they are significant is you can't give Serena as credit for having as tough of competition as she would have had more of those played a longer career, but even without that she compares favorably overall to any other great in competition IMO, so just imagine with those all playing to their 30s. Stabbing is not a natural part of the game. Totally seperate category. And if we want to talk about injuries or such things for Graf anyway, Serena was probably unluckier than Graf, fewer injuries but both her huge injuries at the worst times for her- late 2003, late 2009, both when she was the total dominant player and had a major injury that took her out of the game for close to a year both times, and massively killed her momentum.
And the Australian/French situation is worth giving context too, although as I said if people are going to be truly objective about it this benefits Evert much more than Navratilova. Just as the context of the Australian Open situation in Court's time is worth giving bigtime context too (and is, how often do you hear Court mentioned as GOAT even with her 24 slams, 62 overall slams, and other achievements, there is a reason for that). Totally different from random talks of injuries, people retiring early by choice, slumps, those really mean nothing though. They are just random variables of time and chance which are a regular part of the game.
It has been discussed to death multiple times, and anyone with half a heart agrees the guy should have been jailed and still serving a sentence.
What happened to her was a tragedy and no one can deny it. But it happened and she as well as her fans/Steffi's haters have to move on. A similar event happened to me, my family and friends multiple times over decades with weapons deadlier than knives, yet we get over it. We have to in order to survive. So people dwelling on this just surprises me because it feels very unhealthy, especially that they are not directly related to the person.
forehandblast
Rookie
The only thing though is isn't it even possible Serena also benefitted from the stabbing? I agree far less likely than Graf, but that is another problem with these kind of things, can it ever be proven. I know nearly everyone thinks Seles would have been done as a top contender by 2002, which is the point Serena really started racking up slams apart from 1 late 99 slam, but she would have been 10 years younger than Serena is today when Serena is still a top contender which nobody would have guessed either.
So you could say both players have a what if, or anyone who won anything before say 2008 or 2010 has a possible what if regarding Seles. I am more on Serena's side on this debate than Graf, mainly since I just feel watching both play many times that even factoring for equipment peak Serena is just the better player, she beats Graf in the eye test for me. Still wanting to consider all angles though.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
What you don't understand is that most younger tennis fans don't know this happened yet whenever bringing up the GOAT WTA issue, this is a crucial piece of the puzzle. With Seles playing on, Graf would have far less slams very likely... And we have no idea how far Seles could have gone. That murder attempt has tarnished the GOAT debate forever, made it just a big WHAT IF speculation game rather than st based on facts.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Zero doubt Graf would have won considerably less slams.
Serena benefited nothing though from the stabbing. Too wide a gap era-wise and age-wise.
quirotkicks
Rookie
That individual is evaluating their competition though. If you wan't to ignore the stabbing then fine, but when it comes to Graf's competition you sure as heck can't fully credit Seles as a full career rival for Graf the way say Venus is for Serena or even probably Henin is for Serena (to a lesser degree, as she wasn't always there either) since the fact is she was taken out for years at her peak and was never the same even after returning. You can't have it both ways.
quirotkicks
Rookie
Not really. Hingis was both struggling to keep up with the big hitters and declining when she first retired, and also returned for a few years a few years later and didn't come close to winning another slam. So she was probably was not winning another slam or maybe winning 1 more at a soft slam like 04 French if she happened to hit form for it. Even with a full career she probably doesn't win anymore than 6 slams. So for Sanchez to be so close to her in slam wins, is an indication that Sanchez is a huge overachiever, amongst many other things. So she is 4-3 vs a non prime Serena, cool, like I told you same as how Jo Durie is 4-3 vs a non prime Graf and Durie isn't a 4 slam singles winner. And I never once even think of that stat when I evaluate Durie as a player, in fact most of the time I forget it happening.
If you are seriously denying Sanchez Vicario is a huge overachiever, something literally EVERY tennis commentator, writer and expert said, even during her playing career, it is hard to take anything else you say seriously. You probably didn't even follow Graf's era if you deny such a basic fact, since you don't seem unintelligent. Again being an overachiever isn't even an insult, it is far better than being an underachiever. Since your basis for building her up is just one head to head (her 4-3 vs a non prime Serena) so you obviously believe head to head is important, take a look at Sanchez's other head to heads I posted vs Hingis, Seles, old Navratilova, and 1 slam winners Sabatini and Novotna, then get back to me.
What I don't get about the Hingis era is why she was so dominant. I get she was crafty. But many on here have said once the big hitters came on she became extinct. But she beat many big hitters, like Venus, Mary Pierce and many others in big matches. All of a sudden she just crashes out. Was it a major injury? Or just frustration knowing she couldn't really deal day in day out with big hitters. But from what I have read it was injuries. She makes the Aussie open final in 2002 then retires in 2003. So she was able to deal with most players on tour on a regular basis. It just sounds like her body collapsed at 22. Which is odd because she never played a punishing style. Just an weird time.
Yep. Right ankle surgery in October 2001. After that, she made the 2002 Australian Open finals, losing to Capriati after blowing 4 match points, won the Pan Pacific Open, and made the Indian Wells finals. Then, in May 2002, she needed an operation on her left ankle, and that was pretty much it for her as a top flight singles player.
quirotkicks
Rookie
Combination of a lot of things. Too much success too early. Got far too cocky. Didn't clue in that she might not be as great as she thought she was, until it was too late, and she had already lost a lot of ground while others had improved. She was victimized in a way by coming up and dominating such an incredibly weak year in 1997, that was literally a 1983 caliber year. She was rising in late 96 and showed she was ready to challenge Graf in 97 anyway, but then Graf went down hard, Seles got even worse, Sanchez and others were starting slow burn out, and it was just too easy for her own good in 97 and some of 98.
Foot problems. She sued the shoe company after her retirement and missed a lot of time in 2001 and 2002 so I do think the foot problems were legit, even though some said it was an excuse.
Some devastating slam losses- RG 99 final, U.S Open 2000 semis (that overhead in the semis vs Venus), 2001 AO losing to Capriati after beating both Williams, and the ultimate clincher- 2002 AO final debacle vs Capriati. Each of those took something out of her as they were real snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, and that last one was pretty much the end of her. I almost knew she would retire soon after that last one.
She was super effective at redirecting pace and moving the ball around. She didn't hit the ball incredibly hard but she hit it hard enough, and she had incredible accuracy, compensated for her power deficit by taking the ball super early, and she changed the direction in down the line/crosscourt combinations better and more easily than anyone. She capatilized on Pierce and Seles being non great movers when playing them, and fed off their pace since they hit almost every ball the same. Davenport was the only power player who didn't have great movement, she struggled so badly against. The Williams were far tougher for her since they were unbelievable movers so she could not capatilizde on their movement, and while they were probably the hardest hitters in history already at that point, unlike Pierce and Seles they don't hit every ball the same and as hard as they can so you can't get the same rythym.
It isn't a simple answer like some want it to be, it is a lot of factors combined. She did massively struggle with the upgrade in power in the womens game though, and she was never willing to do the extreme hard work on her physical strength Henin did to compensate for her size deficit.
quirotkicks
Rookie
I think that AO loss to Capriati finished her mentally anyway. The 99 RG debacle vs Graf already took something out of her. The 2000 U .S Open semi final defeat to Venus was huge, particularly since there is a good chance she would have beaten a badly out of form/choking Davenport in the final, especialy with her total loss streak to Davenport over by now, they were back to almost splitting matches. Losing the Australian Open final to Capriati's unlikely story after beating both Williams was another big blow, along with probably losing the RG title to her pigeon Pierce (semis, but it was basically the final with Martinez waiting). So that Australian Open final vs Capriati after having all those match point was a total must win, I don't think she was ever going to come back from that. If she wins any of these I mentioned, she probably does win atleast a couple additional slams after that too.
Then add the injuries and increasingly foot problems and yeah she was done at that point. It was good to see her make a comeback in 2006/2007 and do relatively well, I would have loved to see her win another slam although it was always going to be a long shot. Too bad she couldn't have gotten a draw like Myskina got at RG 2004 or Kuznetsova got at U.S Open 2004 or 2004 wasn't switched into 2006 or 2007 instead for Hingis's benefit (since realistically she was in no mind set to play top level tennis in 2004 itself and needed the break for both her damaged feet and mind to ever play again).
Yea I always got the impression that she was winning those slams so easily that when winning the slams got hard she couldn't deal mentally with it. But that compounded with injuries seem to just break her. I mean she was still very competitive but just wasn't breezing into slam finals. Its like if Roger would have retired 5 years ago or maybe more cause it was getting harder for him. I will give her a break with the foot problems. But I do think she just didn't want to actually grind it out anymore. Very interesting story for her.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
But Venus as a full career rival for Serena isn't as meaningful because Venus was impaired by illness for about a quarter of that rivalry. And however you want to characterize Henin as a rival, Henin played Serena fewer times than Seles played Graf.
That is very, very not true
People have created a totally inaccurate narrative around that rivalry to make it more dramatic.
At the time of the stabbing, Graf and Seles had
Split the last 2
Split the last 4
Split the last 6
Split the last 8
The overall H2H was 6-4 Graf, because she had beaten a very young Seles twice.
The notable thing about the Australian was that it was the first time that Seles had ever beaten Graf on a surface other than clay.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
I'm not invested in whether Sanchez is an overachiever or not because ultimately her measure as a player is what she achieved and that is what it is - 4 major wins, 12 major finals reached, 12 weeks at #1. However, speculating that Hingis was finished at age 22 even if she had not been injured is just that, pure speculation. Sure, she wasn’t winning as frequently as competition increased with Capriati’s comeback and the Williamses, Clijsters, Henin, and Mauresmo joining major contender status, but she was still a major presence. After her last major win in 1999, she made 5 major finals and 4 major semis, which is pretty impressive, and had she played for another 7 years, she could have easily been a spoiler against other contenders in this period including against Serena. Everyone thought Federer was finished after 17 majors, but then roughly 5 years later, he wins 3 more (granted luck had cleared some major obstacles in his way during this period). Hingis’ failed comeback is not necessarily indicative of how she would have played had she never left the game. Many players are much worse when trying to return to their sport after a long layoff. Once you stop practicing multiple hours almost every single day, do constant aerobic and weight training, or maintain a specific diet, it’s not easy to get back to that focus either physically or especially mentally. Notably, Borg and Henin failed at it too and I’ll be surprised if Clijsters can make it back into the top 20 if she comes back this year. I'm not saying Hingis would have achieved much more greatness had her solo career continued and she was uninjured, but I am saying it's highly speculative to say she definitely would not have.
One basic thing that we are all going to have to wrap our head around and accept is that playing elite tennis into your mid 30s is not the miracle it used to be. On the mens side, we talk about the Big 3 as if they are all defying the odds, but the number of players in their 30s who are having career best results or playing their best tennis is clear evidence of a pattern.
Training, diet, medical advances, they all help. So we have to take that into consideration.
We cannot compare when Fedalovic and Serena do at 35 to what McEnroe, Lendl, Sampras, Navratilova and Graf did because the training diet and science hadn't gotten to where that was realistic.
The post that I am not going to dig up on the details on (I'm sure it's been done before) is the one that explains why Seles was not drubbing Graf *head to head* (in fact they did not play as much as you'd expect) but was drubbing Graf in terms of accomplishments on tour. They key is to look at how Graf was doing against *other players*.
After being utterly dominant for years, she started losing regularly to players like Sabbatini and Vicario. The idea that Graf was still playing Graf 1988 tennis and Seles simply came in at a level above that is contradicted by how bad Graf's results were against non-Seles players. There are theoretical explanations (off the court stuff involving Graf and her father is often cited as the culprit) but Graf simply was not herself for a while, and Seles utterly dominated in the absence of Graf's greatness.
Graf got her mojo back, but the sad thing (for tennis) is that we never got to see Graf at her best vs Seles at her best for any extended period. We saw Graf at her best vs rising Seles, we saw Seles at her best vs way-off-form Graf, and then the stabbing.
True. But there is still an endpoint somewhere. Even for Serena and Fed. Not that they are not playing good tennis. Just like years ago when Mac, or others were playing in their early 30s they were still playing good tennis they just couldn't get over the hump for slams and play great tennis. Serena or Fed can come out on any given day and look really good. But its hard to maintain that through an entire slam for various reasons.
No question. My point is more towards attempts to compare this to past and future generations.
Without quibbling over the numbers I pick (please, don't quibble - it's illustrative)
There was a time when the window for tennis greatness (men) was something like 20-29. Yes, some players won majors or were ranked #1, #2 before 20 (Becker, Sampras, Nadal). Some players won majors or were ranked #1, #2 after 29. But those were the exceptions and that was your window.
When Federer, Nadal, Djokovic came onto the tour, that was still largely true. Their window opened at about 20 (or a bit earlier for Nadal).
However, during their time on the tour, training, diet, medical sciences have advanced to where the window no longer closes at 29. And it's not just these 3. Isner, Anderson, Monfils, so many players out there are playing their best tennis outside of what used to be the window. Now, who knows, maybe the window closes typically around 35. A few will win a major or two outside of that, but mostly ...
But the window no longer opens at 20. There have been changes in the game that make it exceptionally hard for a 20, 21, 22 year old to win at this level. We should not write off the 22 year old who has never made a major SF.
So in the past, the window was something like 20-29
In the future, maybe it will be 24-35
The thing for Fedalovic is it is possible that they are the lucky few who got to be of the exact age where their window,and only their window, was 20-35.
No generation before them played elite tennis long enough to win 20 majors
Maybe no generation after them will play elite tennis young enough to win 20 majors
Again, don't get caught on exact numbers, just saying that the life span of an elite player is expanding, and not just for the Big 3 + Williams 2, and we have to consider that any time we measure their accomplishments against those who came before them and those who come after.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
To get back on topic, Graf and Navratilova may have benefited from having lesser competition for a few years, but Serena indisputably had weaker competition for this huge extended period between 2009-2017 where other than Azarenka for 2 years and Li Na in spurts, every other player was extremely inconsistent. Compare that to what Graf's biggest rivals did 1987-1999 in majors: Monica Seles (9 wins, 4 RU, 4 semis), Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (4 wins, 7 RU, 9 SF), Martina Navratilova (3 wins, 7 RU, 3 SF), Lindsay Davenport (2 wins, 5 SF), Jana Novotna (1 win, 3 RU, 5 SF), Gabriela Sabatini (1 win, 2 RU, 13 SF), Conchita Martinez (1 win, 1 RU, 8 SF), Mary Pierce (1 win, 2 RU), Mary Joe Fernandez (3 RU, 6 SF). After 2008, Serena's competition would win a major, even 2, and then fade and regularly lose in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round of majors. Again, Serena did have enormous competition prior to Henin retiring in 2008, and this is shown by Serena only having 57 weeks in that period as #1 (all in 2002-2003). 82% of Serena's time as #1 though came after Henin retired.
Yea I have no issues with Evert or Martina. But lets be real here and its not their fault but they were sleepwalking to quarters and semis back in the day. You can't do that on the WTA tour anymore. The top 100 are much more capable than the top 100 back then. I mean we all know that. Evert even talks about that and admits that all the time.
Also if you are attempting to compare Graf s opponents to Serena over a career, I mean you are listing people who won 1 slam and people like Martina who basically won 1 slam when Graf peaked. I mean even later day competition by your definitions is better than Grans except for Seles and Vicario. Trying to list people by slam wins to judge the actual competition is not really the best way to do it. I mean Kerber has won 3 slams during Sereas time. Osaka two. Kvitova two Azarenka two. Sharapova 5, I could go on and on. I mean I can't tell you well look all of these players showed they could win a slam therefore they were better than the competition that Graf faced. I mean I think they are. But then you can say well Graf was just so good no other players could win. We can't ever really settle that debate. Its impossible to gage.
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Mark-Touch
Legend
No the "inflated slam" argument is valid in this case. Actually it should be called the "asterisk slams".
You can't compare the weak players you named to Graf's case.
In Graf's case we had a player who was superior to her, who was taken out (Seles).
In McEnroe's case, Nadal's case and Fed's case they were simply facing weak opponents at times, not due to
a superior player having been 'taken out' (knifed), but simply the field at the time doing its thing.
quirotkicks
Rookie
Hingis was not in fact worse when she came back in 2006 at all. In fact she was refreshed and playing better than when she left. I would not call her comeback "failed" at all, it was in fact quite respectable, and an indication she made the right choice to take some time off, despite that she didn't succeed in the ultimate goal of another slam unfortunately. In late 2002 she lost to Myksina, Dementieva, a washed up near retired Seles, your beloved Dokic, most of those in lopsided matches, and some other similar second to third tier players of the time. When she first came back nearly all her losses were to only the Big 4 with the Williams slumping- Sharapova, Mauresmo, Henin, Clijsters. So that part simply isn't true. Had she retired after mentally damaging big losses like the ones I mentioned, culminating with the worst of them all at the 2002 Australian Open, and dealing with nagging injuries which would have only gotten worse continuing her career she would have only declined further and probably been retired by 2006 or much worse than she was in 2006. Sure if she got a super lucky draw maybe she could win a surprise last slam somewhere, but more likely her best situation was the one she played out for herself which was taking several years off and returning for one last run while the Williams were slumping in 06 and 07, and it still wasn't quite enough.
As for Sanchez yes she won 4 majors, but the main point is that her winning 4 majors is not only an indication of her determination and tenacity but the pretty weak womens field in the mid 90s that Graf capatilized on to pad her stats after Seles got stabbed and before the next generation players emerged. After all comparing her ability level and talent level wise to not only Hingis but someone like Mandlikova who also won 4 majors in the Navratilova era just before. Huge difference. Maybe if she had played today with the slowed down condition and field where the best players are mostly grinders (Halep, Kerber, Wozniacki, Stephens) it might seem more normal, but not back then.
Oh I know. I am just saying even as the age stuff has adjusted there still is a point when the great ones hit a wall. It might be higher but there is still a point.
quirotkicks
Rookie
Even with Venus impaired by illness for about a quarter of their rivalry she was still was a much longer standing and big rival to Venus than what Seles was to Graf. No contest at all. Compare how many times Venus and Serena played in a slam or 1 of the 5 majors (YEC added) to how many times Graf and Seles did. And over how many years they played matches relative to Graf and Seles. Not to mention Graf and Seles's peaks never coincided since Seles dominated when Graf was badly subpar for her standards for the most part, then Seles was either too young or post stabbing during Graf's best years. Venus and Serena atleast were near their best together from late 2001-2003 until both got injured just before the Open, 2008 and some of 2009, and a couple other times.
As for Henin, the Henin-Serena rivalry never panned out to be all it could have as their peaks rarely coincided, but she is clearly a better player than everyone Graf faced from 88-96 when winning almost all her slams apart form Seles. Yes that included an old post prime Navratilova who was usually ranked behind Sabatini. Navratilova post prime was still good yes but certainly not better than a prime Henin, no way. The only place she would be better at that stage is possibly WImbledon, that is it. In fact Davenport, Sharapova (despite the joke GOATrena has single handedly turned their rivalry into, partly out of a personal vendetta), Clijsters, even probably Mauresmo are also better than everyone Graf faced from 88-96 apart from Seles of 91-early 93 and Navratilova of 87-89. And if we are going to mention Seles and Navratilova who only had a real rivalry with Graf of about 3 years each, we might as well mention Hingis for Serena (99-2001) too.
Yea I mean people keep saying that Serena didn't have a long term rival but neither did Graf. She has Seles and a old Martina for like 3 years . The actual people who did play most of the time when she did pretty much stunk. I mean you could make a case for Vicario but the only other HOFer from Graf s time was Sabittini. And sheesh thats kind of a low bar HOFer. Thats like saying man Serena had to play Wozniaki or something.
quirotkicks
Rookie
Funny you say that since Wozniacki actually achieved a ton more than Sabatini. Each with 1 slam and 3 slam finals, Sabatini has 2 YE#1 while Woz has only 1, but Wozniacki has more overall titles. Each has 6 Tier 1 titles. The huge difference that creates a large divide between them is Wozniacki has 2 YE#1 while Sabatini could not even reach #2 for a single week. And you can't put that down to just competition even if Wozniacki would probably not have ever reached #1 when Sabatini played. In 1991 Sabatini had about 3 matches she becomes #1 if she wins and she lost to people like 14 year old Capriati (still not too bad when you look how Jen played at the U.S Open and even Wimbledon), Date, Huber and thus stayed at #3. Graf in 1991 was also absolutely awful, the worst version of Graf ever, which is what initialy paved Seles's path to dominance, but Sabatini playing her best year of tennis ever by far still could not usurp her for even the #2 ranking for a single week. Even Conchita Martinez got to #2 during the same era. So Sabatini probably would have blown any chances to get to #1 and not been consistent or tough enough mentally enough to ever get there even in a soft era like some of Wozniacki's time.
Yet Wozniacki is something like only the 7th or 8th best player of the so called super weak part of Serena's era behind Serena, Azarenka, Kerber, Halep, possibly Sharapova, Muguruza, possibly Na. Sabatini meanwhile was the 4th best player of the entire Graf era behind only Graf, Seles, and Sanchez, or at worst 5th behind old Navratilova (88-94) but Sabatini probably achieved more than Navratilova in that span.
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D
Deleted member 769694
Guest
What are you talking about, serena beat her 1 time from 2003-2010 then justine retired?
Henin is better than Martina?? Ok...
Graf had her mojo mostly back at the 1992 French Open, and many commented how she was playing better than ever at the 1993 Australian Open. Seles still beat her both times and was clearly still improving in early 1993, with a bigger serve (seven aces against Graf in the AO final) and even some net play. Seles was 36-1 in her last 37 matches, with the only loss to Navratilova, 7-6 in the third when Seles had the flu. It's scary to think how good she could have been from 1993-1995.
quirotkicks
Rookie
I hope you aren't referring to Mary Carillo and Cliff Drysdale as many. Since those were the only two I heard say that. Two of the worst commentators in tennis history. Carillo has no credability, things she says almost always make no sense; like when said "Maria is just a way better player than Serena" in bitterness after Serena beat Maria in the 2005 Australian Open semis. Her opinions and views change like the wind, she was the biggest Seles ass kisser around early 93 so I am not surrpised she would say something like "Graf is playing her best tennis ever" with no basis or logic beyond trying to pump up her then pet more. Later that same year she disgustingly said Seles was milking the stabbing for all it was worth and her real goal was Hollywood, so I guess she was on a different bandwagon now. She is a racist, vulgar mouth, butch man wannabee, fake feminist, former nobody player who only is employed due to her buddy McEnroe, and everything else bad you can think of. As for Drysdale he is a senile old man and an embarssment in the booth, and was always a pretty big hater of two players imparticular- Steffi Graf and Mary Pierce.
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