Revisiting the flat shot... Old guys only please...

[rkelley]

It's a shame that more kids are not being taught this style. I don't see a reason why this old school game wouldn't still work at the highest levels provided you have all the other attributes of a pro (hand eye coordination, speed, fitness, anticipation, footwork,..etc.)

At the men's pro level you could not hit the ball hard enough with enough margin to be competitive if you hit flat all of the time. Even Delpo can put a lot spin on his fh when he wants to. He only goes for that flat-ish bomb at specific times. Flat all or most of the time would create too many UFEs, and too many situations where it would be physically impossible to hit flat and hard and keep the ball in, so you create a sitter for your opponent.

A lot of the pro women hit pretty flat a lot of the time, so it can work there, though it seems like more women are using more spin.

Rec level is a different thing. That old school style could work well.

 

[Limpinhitter]

The modern game has a lot of emphasis on use of the topspin ball to keep your opponents deep. Does this apply to us old guys as well?

How many of you... 45 and older find opponents who hit a flat, skidding ball is harder to deal with than the guy who hits with lots of topspin? It's just getting harder and harder to bend the knees and get low shot after shot. With a topspin shot, at least I can back up or move in to control where in the arc I hit the ball. Against a flat shot, I feel like I have very little window of height where I can comfortably hit the ball.

A driving slice may bounce lower but at least there's less pace and more time to read/anticipate.

I play with a full western and hit with a decent amount of topspin (at least according my opponents), but I've been experimenting mixing in a flat, driving shot with a continental for a bit now. I throw it in once in a while and have been pleasantly surprised with the results.

In my experience, the traditional drive groundstroke affords more consistent depth control than heavy topspin modern strokes. I have also seen that modern players with more extreme grips have as much, or more, difficulty handling/timing deep, penetrating flatter shots as traditional players have handling heavy topspin. On balance, however, if you are healthy and athletic enough to execute it (that bar isn't that high), the ability to hit more aggressively and keep the ball in play more consistently with the modern heavy topspin groundgame will result in more match wins than the traditional groundgame.

 

[ByeByePoly]

- Strike zone isn't just high and low ... but also outside (wide)

- if a flat ball hitter isn't running their opponent, they aren't doing it right or they are playing someone better than them

- @iChen might have predicted the fh dtl he is now chasing to his bh corner ... now we see if that prediction turns into a passing shot.

- Connors was pretty good ... bet he would beat his fair share of heavy ts 5.0 USTA players.

- why the either /or? I watched a girls D1 college match recently, and all hit beautiful low UE heavy ts. But I watched for over an hour, and hardly saw an aggressive flatter dtl offensive shot. Flipside, I had a friend that played 5.0 level tennis against many 30 year old ex-D1s. He hit flat off both wings, not even huge pace and it robbed even very good players of pace time. Flat is not generic. I hit flatish (just enough ts to help bring down). His was truly flat ... read Penn going by... barely over net. It's not true you can't be low UE rec play with low net clearance. You can't hit modern ATP pace that way, but that has very little to do with rec tennis.

- rec players should pick the style they enjoy, many styles can work. I can't hit enough pace even with the flatter ball, and heavy ts would rob what little I have. But on fh cc pass, or ts lob I can call up more ts. I did notice 5+ years ago when I switched to RPM Blast, and changed fh stroke a little, the sharp cc fh rally ball was a nice addition. It does matter if you can pull someone really wide. But that goes with the way I have always approached singles ... keep them running.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That would be great, but I need to practice all the elements you mentioned. Only once I convinced my partner using hidden gestures before serve for poaching.
And that was in a real game. After a few fails we abandoned this. Formations, I dont even mention...
In my reality the only tactical element that is possible without prior practicing is moving to the opposite side of the court once your partner moves sideways.

Find a partner who is open to these more advanced topics. Losing the point doesn't mean the strategy was bad; it could have been just the execution. But the gun-shy partner views it as condemnation and is even more wary of trying it. You can point to top-level doubles players [or even just better doubles players] and how they signal and poach and move and fake but it likely won't change his viewpoint. That's all theory to him; his reality is during a match and a few lost points means the idea was bad.

 

[eelhc]

Find a partner who is open to these more advanced topics. Losing the point doesn't mean the strategy was bad; it could have been just the execution. But the gun-shy partner views it as condemnation and is even more wary of trying it. You can point to top-level doubles players [or even just better doubles players] and how they signal and poach and move and fake but it likely won't change his viewpoint. That's all theory to him; his reality is during a match and a few lost points means the idea was bad.

In both singles and doubles, most club level players do not play tennis with any conscious awareness of what's going on past what shot they want to play at the particular moment. Mostly it's "let's hit the ball back/forth and see what happens". Simple tactics/strategy is well beyond their execution.

Look at the simple things they constantly screw up. After a set, the person who starts the new set/tiebreak is the person whose "turn" it is to serve.... Not necessarily who had been serving better (winning more points/games off their serve).

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

In both singles and doubles, most club level players do not play tennis with any conscious awareness of what's going on past what shot they want to play at the particular moment. Mostly it's "let's hit the ball back/forth and see what happens". Simple tactics/strategy is well beyond their execution.

I don't think it's beyond their ability to execute so much as they were never exposed to the concepts and thus react conservatively. The most important trait is that they are open-minded and willing to try new things.

 

[GuyClinch]

Guys who hit flat - make more mistakes. If someone can beat me totally flat - more power to them. Flat shots because of physics need to be hit lower over the net. These leads to less depth or over hitting.

So sure - well placed flat balls can be super tough - but they are hard to execute. Tennis rule of thumb - you want to be hitting easy shots and your opponent hard shots. If my opponent has to hit low percentage flat shots and I can hit easy rally balls - I like that deal.

 

[kramer woodie]

I find it most difficult to talk about old school flat strokes. In the mid 1960s every shot from the baseline had some topspin on the ball
to hold the ball from going long. Most definitely less topspin then is developed today. However, there was some topspin on the ball to hold
it in, otherwise, the ball would have hit the back fence on the fly without bouncing.

I remember the only truly flat shot was hit when the ball bounced higher than the net allowing a more downward path to the swing and
still clear the net. Anything that the bounce was lower than the net had to be lifted using the lead leg pushing up which also raised the
swing path in a more vertical path applying topspin naturally. In 1964, I used not a Continental grip (bevel two for a right hander), but
bevel three and even extreme bevel three on a forehand groundstroke. Today, I use the same grip and sometimes bevel four depending
on how high the ball bounces.

Now for a one hand backhand in 64, I sometimes used bevel eight for down the line return put aways because it produced the most
topspin. However, most of the time all knuckles were on bevel one. Today, I can not any longer use bevel eight as my leg strength will
not allow me to get low enough to use that grip and hit far enough out front. I still use bevel one with all finger pads on bevel one for
groundstrokes. When i hit backhand slice I let the little finger pad slide slightly to bevel two. With the new racquets and higher launch
angles off those racquets, I can no longer hit Continental grip because the ball launches higher and has a tendency to float. The same
with the forehand slice grip, mild Eastern bevel three.

So for the slice off both wings, I hit a more driving slice that stays low on the bounce. Plus, my backhand slice reminds me more of
Rosewall's backhand slice, which can still be a good approach shot if the ball is traveling fast enough and is more of a low skidding slice.

When serving, I still to this day use a Continental grip (bevel two) and when volleying. So, I find the conversation about old flat versus
today's spin, very misleading because even in the old days spin was used to control the ball and keep it inside the lines. Could we
produce massive spin? No! That is until someone by the name of Borg came along and was the harbinger of a new approach to tennis.

For proof of spin in the old days, it's easy to find, just look to short players like Laver and Rosewall who used great amounts of spin
to get their serve over the net and back down into the service court.

Aloha

 

[mcs1970]

Guys who hit flat - make more mistakes. If someone can beat me totally flat - more power to them. Flat shots because of physics need to be hit lower over the net. These leads to less depth or over hitting.

So sure - well placed flat balls can be super tough - but they are hard to execute. Tennis rule of thumb - you want to be hitting easy shots and your opponent hard shots. If my opponent has to hit low percentage flat shots and I can hit easy rally balls - I like that deal.

Every ball has spin...sidespin/topspin/underspin. Not sure if anyone hits totally flat. The old school guys don't have the high clearance of modern top spin guys, but they have good clearance, can place the ball on a dime and really move you around the court with the change of depth and pace. Their top end pace is definitely not that of a top spin ball basher, but the change in depth and pace along with their control makes them very difficult to play. Win or lose, they'll make you run around a lot...front to back/side to side as opposed to a more constant side to side movement when playing hard hitting top spin guys.

 

[Wise one]

Every ball has spin...sidespin/topspin/underspin. Not sure if anyone hits totally flat. The old school guys don't have the high clearance of modern top spin guys, but they have good clearance, can place the ball on a dime and really move you around the court with the change of depth and pace. Their top end pace is definitely not that of a top spin ball basher, but the change in depth and pace along with their control makes them very difficult to play. Win or lose, they'll make you run around a lot...front to back/side to side as opposed to a more constant side to side movement when playing hard hitting top spin guys.

yep!