Rewatching the 2009 AO between Nadal-Verdasco as well as Nadal-Federer, it is amazing to see how much Nadal and Federer have declined

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
Both men hits bigger these days.

What I see in that match:

Nadal: Weaker server, weaker BH, less polished player overall but his movement was definitely quicker than Rafa today. That you can see.

Federer: If you watch Fed today and last year or so, you can see his movement has started to be a bit slower especially to the sides, but Fed from few years ago was moving just aswell if not even better. as oppose to everything else, I'd say Federer today is improved from that version. Better serve, BH better, better at the net, plays the game faster, he is wiser and more experienced and overall hitting bigger from ever facet of the game. In form fed from 15-19 Id put my money on him in 4 sets against this Rafa.

These are my honest thoughts from watching them, the movement on Rafa you can clearly see it has detoriated if you compare him today to ten years ago, but purely as a tennis player he is much more polished now and hitting bigger especially the serve and BH. Both men are more decorated tennis players today.
 
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3virgul14

Rookie
Here they are both still mid 20's so capable of everything physically .

I am same age as Fed now and in 2009 I used to play all day football , go to the parties at night till the morning, get wasted totally. Go to sleep by 0600 , wake up and go to work by 0900 and still alive next days to repeat this routine.

Now if i do the same once i am a mess for a week and injured for couple of weeks. Thats how much is the difference between being 27 or 38.. :)
 

Robert F

Semi-Pro
I think the big question is how much does wisdom/experience and pattern recognition help an aging player as their physical attributes decline. Do Rafa and Fed keep up because they subconsciously identify situations much faster than they used to. They've played so many matches that their tennis IQ/wisdom helps them predict the ball path better than 4-5 years ago. Is this enough to compensate for a loss foot speed? Also, they might not hit as hard, but with their experience are they picking better targets than they would have 4-5 years ago.
 

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
Here they are both still mid 20's so capable of everything physically .

I am same age as Fed now and in 2009 I used to play all day football , go to the parties at night till the morning, get wasted totally. Go to sleep by 0600 , wake up and go to work by 0900 and still alive next days to repeat this routine.

Now if i do the same once i am a mess for a week and injured for couple of weeks. Thats how much is the difference between being 27 or 38.. :)
But you are not an elite athlete, that's the difference. How your body holds up compared to these elites are in no way comparable.
 
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RF-18

G.O.A.T.
I think the big question is how much does wisdom/experience and pattern recognition help an aging player as their physical attributes decline. Do Rafa and Fed keep up because they subconsciously identify situations much faster than they used to. They've played so many matches that their tennis IQ/wisdom helps them predict the ball path better than 4-5 years ago. Is this enough to compensate for a loss foot speed? Also, they might not hit as hard, but with their experience are they picking better targets than they would have 4-5 years ago.
They are much more wiser and experienced today. You are definitely talking sense regarding reading pattern of play today compared to their versions 10-15 years ago. And that plays a big part aswell.
 

Booger

Hall of Fame
It's practically a different sport now. It felt like Nadal could get to any ball and fed had every shot in the book plus a few more. Now they are old and all anyone cares about is pointless stats because the actual tennis is so meh.

Peak verdasco could probably win 10 slams in this era and tt would be full of verdasco = goat threads.
 

3virgul14

Rookie
But you are not an elite athlete, that's the difference. How your body holds up compared to these elite athletes are in no way comparable.

Of course, what i wanted to say is that you can not ignore the age. 11 years is huge in your mid life ages..
 

Incognito

Legend
They are much more wiser and experienced today. You are definitely talking sense regarding reading pattern of play today compared to their versions 10-15 years ago. And that plays a big part aswell.
Experience is Nothing If you can no longer execute you best weapon? Both Federer and especially Nadal can no longer defend their fh side. Young Nadal or Federer would want you to direct every shot to their fh. And of course both could run for days. These days Nadal is almost dead at the start of every 4th set.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Both men hits bigger these days.

What I see in that match:

Nadal: Weaker server, weaker BH, less polished player overall but his movement was definitely quicker than Rafa today. That you can see.

Federer: If you watch Fed today and last year or so, you can see his movement has started to be a bit slower especially to the sides, but Fed from few years ago was moving just aswell if not even better. as oppose to everything else, I'd say Federer today is improved from that version. Better serve, BH better, better at the net, plays the game faster, he is wiser and more experienced and overall hitting bigger from ever facet of the game. In form fed from 15-19 Id put my money on him in 4 sets against this Rafa.

These are my honest thoughts from watching them, the movement on Rafa you can clearly see it has detoriated if you compare him today to ten years ago, but purely as a tennis player he is much more polished now and hitting bigger especially the serve and BH. Both men are more decorated tennis players today.
The Fed since the racket chance is capable of an UFE at any point and lacks consistency and movement.

prime Fed dominated matches with his FH and his BH held up better too (Aside from the purple patch in 2017)

incredible to compare the 2009/2017 finals. Both players slower and weaker at every shot (apart from Fed’s BH imo)
 

Lew II

Legend
Murray was tougher to beat in 2017 than in 2013 because he was ranked higher.
The higher ranked player, even by just 1 position, wins slam finals/semis/quarters about 70% of times. Data collected since 1991 (about 840 matches). So even if they had a similar tournament, reaching the same round, the player who was better in the previous 12 months ended up being better in that match too.


ATP uses the ranking to make the draws, which is telling. You wish your eye test was more objective and reliable than the ranking so you can say that Baghdatis, Gonzalez and Philippoussis were tougher opponents than Federer, Nadal and Murray.
 
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BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
It's practically a different sport now. It felt like Nadal could get to any ball and fed had every shot in the book plus a few more. Now they are old and all anyone cares about is pointless stats because the actual tennis is so meh.

Peak verdasco could probably win 10 slams in this era and tt would be full of verdasco = goat threads.
Are you being serious or joking?
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
The higher ranked player, even by just 1 position, wins slam finals/semis/quarters about 70% of times. Data collected since 1991 (about 840 matches). So even if they had a similar tournament, reaching the same round, the player who was better in the previous 12 months ended up being better in that match too.


ATP uses the ranking to make the draws, which is telling. You wish your eye test was more objective and reliable than the ranking so you can say that Baghdatis, Gonzalez and Philippoussis were tougher opponents than Federer, Nadal and Murray.
2020 AO Federer >>>>2017 AO Federer because he is ranked higher.
 

Lew II

Legend
What? This is exactly what you're telling me.

2015 AO Nadal > 2017 AO Nadal because he was ranked higher.
Me and ATP follow an objective criteria that is not always right but it makes us right most of the times.

Do you know how trading works? You're not expected to earn always, but you should most of the times. This is the same logic. The ranking is more reliable than your eye test because it is right more times. I hope I could explain myself.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Me and ATP follow an objective criteria that is not always right but it makes us right most of the times.

Do you know how trading works? You're not expected to earn always, but you should most of the times. This is the same logic. The ranking is more reliable than your eye test because it is right more times. I hope I could explain myself.
Dude I used to be an obsessive day trader back in the day and that analogy sucks.
 

Otacon

Hall of Fame
Both men hits bigger these days.

What I see in that match:

Nadal: Weaker server, weaker BH, less polished player overall but his movement was definitely quicker than Rafa today. That you can see.

Federer: If you watch Fed today and last year or so, you can see his movement has started to be a bit slower especially to the sides, but Fed from few years ago was moving just aswell if not even better. as oppose to everything else, I'd say Federer today is improved from that version. Better serve, BH better, better at the net, plays the game faster, he is wiser and more experienced and overall hitting bigger from ever facet of the game. In form fed from 15-19 Id put my money on him in 4 sets against this Rafa.

These are my honest thoughts from watching them, the movement on Rafa you can clearly see it has detoriated if you compare him today to ten years ago, but purely as a tennis player he is much more polished now and hitting bigger especially the serve and BH. Both men are more decorated tennis players today.
Movement/Speed is the most important part in tennis, then comes the serve.
 

Lew II

Legend
Dude I used to be an obsessive day trader back in the day and that analogy sucks.
Why does the ATP uses the ranking despite it not being always right?

Why for example Federer and Nadal were not at least top8 seeds at 2017 AO?
 
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tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Why does the ATP uses the ranking if it is not always right? Why for example Federer and Nadal were not at least top8 seeds at 2017 AO?
The problem that you don't see is that the ranking is based on a 12 month period. It is very rare for a player to maintain a specific level all the time, there are ups and downs. Like f.e. Fed was no 1 until August 2008 but clearly his level in 2008 was worse compared to 2007 but because he won so much in 2007 his ranking didn't drop until August.

There are many facotrs to consider and rankings is only one of them.
 

Lew II

Legend
The problem that you don't see is that the ranking is based on a 12 month period. It is very rare for a player to maintain a specific level all the time, there are ups and downs. Like f.e. Fed was no 1 until August 2008 but clearly his level in 2008 was worse compared to 2007 but because he won so much in 2007 his ranking didn't drop until August.

There are many facotrs to consider and rankings is only one of them.
Please answer my question.
 
Both men hits bigger these days.

What I see in that match:

Nadal: Weaker server, weaker BH, less polished player overall but his movement was definitely quicker than Rafa today. That you can see.

Federer: If you watch Fed today and last year or so, you can see his movement has started to be a bit slower especially to the sides, but Fed from few years ago was moving just aswell if not even better. as oppose to everything else, I'd say Federer today is improved from that version. Better serve, BH better, better at the net, plays the game faster, he is wiser and more experienced and overall hitting bigger from ever facet of the game. In form fed from 15-19 Id put my money on him in 4 sets against this Rafa.

These are my honest thoughts from watching them, the movement on Rafa you can clearly see it has detoriated if you compare him today to ten years ago, but purely as a tennis player he is much more polished now and hitting bigger especially the serve and BH. Both men are more decorated tennis players today.
 
According to some Djokovic trolls like @RF-18 one has to wonder why Borg and Laver are not coming back to tennis. They are so much more experienced now, they would be much better than they were before. Would definitely destroy the field. :-D :-D :-D :-D
 

RelentlessAttack

Professional
Why does the ATP uses the ranking if it is not always right?
Lol. Lewis, this is possibly the most colossally stupid thing I’ve ever read on TTW, and that’s saying a lot. Yeah, corporations never use imperfect measuring systems – except for all the time.
 

Lew II

Legend
Lol. Lewis, this is possibly the most colossally stupid thing I’ve ever read on TTW, and that’s saying a lot. Yeah, corporations never use imperfect measuring systems – except for all the time.
When did I say it's perfect? They use it because it's usually right and is therefore reliable.
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Nadal and Fedr are disgrace in 2020. We all should kill ourself just no to witness this abomination. :-D
 
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