Rewatching USO 13 final

D

Deleted member 763691

Guest
Just to remind myself Nadal CAN play on a HC v Djokovic .... LOL jk .

But seriously, I went from watching the AO 17 final onto AO 2009 final then onto this, and the difference is crazy.

Nadal is a completely different player.
Aside from the fact that the US Open suits Rafa's game a lot more than the AO does, Rafa wasn't even able to practice properly for the AO :)
"....because of the things that happened to me in terms of surgery, then what happened in Abu Dhabi, I was not able to work that much the defensive game. I worked a lot on the offensive game, but not that much on the defensive game.
To play against a player like him, playing the way he played tonight, I needed that defensive game to finally have the chance to be offensive, no?"
 

Hitman

Legend
Well, Nadal's slump didn't last a few months or something. He was terrible for almost 3 years, pretty much since AO 2014. Of course everyone thought he was done, he couldn't make a come back for a too long time.

But my point is that some act like Federer's and Djokovic's comebacks were much greater, while Nadal never really did anything special in 2017. It's not true. I was 100% sure he was done winning slams. I was posting on another forum back then and I really laughed at those who said he was the favorite for RG 2017. Actually, I didn't believe he was going to win the title until he converted the matchpoint in the final.
Here are my thoughts on this. Nadal has come back many times, did it first in 2010 and then more famously in 2013. He was the comeback kid. If anyone could come back, however low he maybe, it was Nadal. I don't see that as a slur, but as the ultimate show of respect, that if anyone can do it, it is Rafa.

Federer or Djokovic were completely unproven in these situations, neither had such a prolonged period off, because their consistency is vastly superior to Nadal's. So when Federer did it, not only did he come back after a potential career ending knee injury when he was symbolically lying on the grass at Wimbledon, not only did his comeback in his mid 30s, not only did he do his comeback in a grand slam, but he also won that grand slam by beating his biggest nemesis is an epic five set match, after going through several five set matches before. If the Rocky movies can be translated to any two slams, the first would be Wimbledon 2001 which was basically Rocky I, and the other is AO 2017 which is like a mix of Rocky II and Rocky Balboa. It was like a Hollywood movie.

Nadal had his return on the clay then, and trust me, I was here, he was lauded for it and it was an impressive story to see him reach La Decima and make history. It was a historic moment in all of sport, and everyone spoke of Nadal's triumphant return to once again reclaiming his throne. Now, whether you had Rafa as fav for RG 2017 or not I don't know but here, he was the fav, and he dominated. The one thing that didn't look good for Nadal in his comeback was the consistent losses to Federer in 2017, Fed just kept taking more of the limelight and the change in the H2H dynamic also became a talking point and propped up Federer's 2017 even more.

Now as far as Djokovic is concerned, he went from being 6-6 at one point in the season to having one of the most iconic matches of all time with Nadal at Wimbledon, and then just surged all the way to the world number one year end ranking. Think about it, Djokovic was 6-6 at one point in the season, and went from that all the way to world number one before the season ended, winning back to back slams and completing the golden career masters, which really put a cherry on the cake that he did something no other player had done before, and he beat Federer in the final there.

This doesn't mean Rafa was looked down upon, absolutely not, it was that no one had ever seen anything like that for Federer or Djokovic that it took many by surprise.
 
Here are my thoughts on this. Nadal has come back many times, did it first in 2010 and then more famously in 2013. He was the comeback kid. If anyone could come back, however low he maybe, it was Nadal. I don't see that as a slur, but as the ultimate show of respect, that if anyone can do it, it is Rafa.

Federer or Djokovic were completely unproven in these situations, neither had such a prolonged period off, because their consistency is vastly superior to Nadal's. So when Federer did it, not only did he come back after a potential career ending knee injury when he was symbolically lying on the grass at Wimbledon, not only did his comeback in his mid 30s, not only did he do his comeback in a grand slam, but he also won that grand slam by beating his biggest nemesis is an epic five set match, after going through several five set matches before. If the Rocky movies can be translated to any two slams, the first would be Wimbledon 2001 which was basically Rocky I, and the other is AO 2017 which is like a mix of Rocky II and Rocky Balboa. It was like a Hollywood movie.

Nadal had his return on the clay then, and trust me, I was here, he was lauded for it and it was an impressive story to see him reach La Decima and make history. It was a historic moment in all of sport, and everyone spoke of Nadal's triumphant return to once again reclaiming his throne. Now, whether you had Rafa as fav for RG 2017 or not I don't know but here, he was the fav, and he dominated. The one thing that didn't look good for Nadal in his comeback was the consistent losses to Federer in 2017, Fed just kept taking more of the limelight and the change in the H2H dynamic also became a talking point and propped up Federer's 2017 even more.

Now as far as Djokovic is concerned, he went from being 6-6 at one point in the season to having one of the most iconic matches of all time with Nadal at Wimbledon, and then just surged all the way to the world number one year end ranking. Think about it, Djokovic was 6-6 at one point in the season, and went from that all the way to world number one before the season ended, winning back to back slams and completing the golden career masters, which really put a cherry on the cake that he did something no other player had done before, and he beat Federer in the final there.

This doesn't mean Rafa was looked down upon, absolutely not, it was that no one had ever seen anything like that for Federer or Djokovic that it took many by surprise.
I see your point, but IMO the comparison with 2010 or 2013 is just wrong. It's very strange that some were writing Nadal off in 2009. Yes, he had a weak second half of 2009, but he was only 23 years old back then, and it was too early to write him off. I was annoyed that he couldn't win any titles for 11 months, especially given how he lost in IW and Miami 2010 when he definitely should have won both. But when the clay season came he totally destroyed the field.

There were no reasons to write him off before 2013 as well. He was having a good year in 2012 before the loss to Rosol. After that he was just off for 7 months due to injury. There were no signs of decline. Yes, he could fail to come back from the injury, but there no real reasons to think he will definitely fail. To be honest, I had high expectations for 2013. Of course I didn't expect it to be that good, but I hoped he will come back.

IMO that can't compared to 3 straight years of playing terrible tennis, losing to nobodies and failing to even reach a slam 1/4 final for such a long time. (and a slam semifinal for even longer). In 2014-2016 he was clearly in decline. I had SOME hopes after 2015 that he might come back in 2016. But instead of that he had an even worse year in 2016. After that I had no doubts he is done and should retire. I'm still shocked by what happened next.

I was close to stop watching tennis after RG 2016, totally missed Wimbledon that year. Then started watching a bit again. Sometimes I imagine what would have happened if I really stopped watching it and then 3 years later I would come to Nadal's Wikipedia page just to see if he finally retired. Then I would see he has 19 slam titles and is the current number 1. I have no idea what would be my reaction. :-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D
 

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
If you look at the stats and the match Djokovic played pretty much how he always plays Nadal on HC. He is aggressive and trying to be in command, but his game fell apart.

Djokovic had over 40 winners in this match while Nadal was in the mid 20 range. Nadal was much more solid however and his movement on HC at this time was better than now but still it doesn't explain Novaks game falling apart. His UE error count was almost in the 60 Range, very uncharacteristic of him.

Nadal deserves credit for the great run he was on and he was playing great HC tennis but Djokovic was not up to par quite clearly and that has to be said. Quality wise the match was underwhelming.
 

Hitman

Legend
I see your point, but IMO the comparison with 2010 or 2013 is just wrong. It's very strange that some were writing Nadal off in 2009. Yes, he had a weak second half of 2009, but he was only 23 years old back then, and it was too early to write him off. I was annoyed that he couldn't win any titles for 11 months, especially given how he lost in IW and Miami 2010 when he definitely should have won both. But when the clay season came he totally destroyed the field.
He was being written off both times. It is always 20:20 when you have hindsight, but back then everyone was saying Nadal's body is breaking down. People were not too optimistic.

There were no reasons to write him off before 2013 as well. He was having a good year in 2012 before the loss to Rosol. After that he was just off for 7 months due to injury. There were no signs of decline. Yes, he could fail to come back from the injury, but there no real reasons to think he will definitely fail. To be honest, I had high expectations for 2013. Of course I didn't expect it to be that good, but I hoped he will come back.
There were reasons then also, I was here seeing it all go down. That is why many here rank his 2013 return greater than his 2017 return, including many Nadal fans.

IMO that can't compared to 3 straight years of playing terrible tennis, losing to nobodies and failing to even reach a slam 1/4 final for such a long time. (and a slam semifinal for even longer). In 2014-2016 he was clearly in decline. I had SOME hopes after 2015 that he might come back in 2016. But instead of that he had an even worse year in 2016. After that I had no doubts he is done and should retire. I'm still shocked by what happened next.

I was close to stop watching tennis after RG 2016, totally missed Wimbledon that year. Then started watching a bit again. Sometimes I imagine what would have happened if I really stopped watching it and then 3 years later I would come to Nadal's Wikipedia page just to see if he finally retired. Then I would see he has 19 slam titles and is the current number 1. I have no idea what would be my reaction. :-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D
LOL
 

Hitman

Legend
Exactly! if you took a 24 yr old Nadal or Federer gave them modern racquet technology and training I think they would dominate today. I can’t say the same about Djokovic unfortunately.
24 yr old Djokovic was 2011 version Djokovic. That version dominated in one of toughest times possible, he can most certainly dominate now.
 

Mike Sams

Legend
Just to remind myself Nadal CAN play on a HC v Djokovic .... LOL jk .

But seriously, I went from watching the AO 17 final onto AO 2009 final then onto this, and the difference is crazy.

Nadal is a completely different player.

He was going forward and dominating Djokovic in that USO final. Stepping into the court and pushing Djokovic back, much the way it happens in reverse nowadays.

Federer from 2009 has definitely a much stronger BH. Although his FH, along with Nadals is weaker.

Nothing anyone doesn't already know, but its sometimes good to watch the younger versions of these guys, when everyone is so concentrated on whos the best now.
Anyone else ever rewatch matches , and realize the difference ?

PS someone just needs to get Nadal to rewatch that 2013 final, to remind him how to play Djokovic on a HC.
:unsure:
Nadal had been away from the sport for 10 months when he returned in the spring of 2013. He was mentally and physically refreshed. He came out like a house on fire and was winning almost everything from spring all the way to the end of the north american hardcourt swing. After that point, he plateaued and began to decline. He couldn't maintain that level.
 

Mike Sams

Legend
Well, Nadal's slump didn't last a few months or something. He was terrible for almost 3 years, pretty much since AO 2014. Of course everyone thought he was done, he couldn't make a come back for a too long time.

But my point is that some act like Federer's and Djokovic's comebacks were much greater, while Nadal never really did anything special in 2017. It's not true. I was 100% sure he was done winning slams. I was posting on another forum back then and I really laughed at those who said he was the favorite for RG 2017. Actually, I didn't believe he was going to win the title until he converted the matchpoint in the final.
A new coach can do wonders. It helped many players including Djokovic with Becker, Federer with Ljubicic, Stan with Norman, Nadal with Moya, Murray with Lendl, etc.
 

nachiket nolefam

Hall of Fame
My Nadal hatred started at USO 13 and I was one of those who counted him out completely before 2017 AO.

It ended on Wimbledon 2018 in one of the best matches ever. He was so good, everything is forgotten now.
 
Winning in IW and reaching the WTF final were big markers on HC for Nadal too.
Its ironic, that years later he is doing better in HC slams, but cant beat Fedovic in them, whereas back then, he was probably favourite facing both , but wasn't as consistent against the rest of the field.
Nadal was fully consistent against the field then too barring injuries.
2010 USO win, 2011 AO QF (Ferrer/hamstring), 2011 USO F, 2012 AO F, 2012 USO absent, 2013 AO absent, 2013 USO win, 2014 AO F (Wawrinka/back), 2014 USO absent. Basically got to play one good HC slem per year, two wins and three finals at that.
 

Backspin1183

G.O.A.T.
I get the feeling Djokovic also rewatches that '13 US Open final every time he's due to play the Spaniard on HC these days. ;)

Anyway, Nadal can rewatch it as many times as he likes but ultimately it won't help him regain the speed and explosiveness he had in his game back then. Djokovic's serve is also better now which makes it harder for Nadal to make a dent in his service games(although admittedly his return position also plays a part in this).
Nadal a lot of times looks indecisive when playing Djokovic on hard courts these days. His new aggressive game or the old familiar game which clearly no longer works for a 33 year old Nadal. IMO he should stick to playing aggressive no matter what to have a chance against Novak.

I watched the ATP cup match highlights and he did much better in the second set. That's how he should play Djokovic. And for gods sake, stay close to the baseline when returning Novak serves like he did in 2010 and 2013 finals.
 
It was a great match overall, all their Us Open meetings were great however I would rate their 2010 and 2011 meetings above this one.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Um, yes it did.
But credit to Nadal for capitalising on this, and raising his own game.
Nole turned this rivalry on it's head after this match.
Djokovic had a great 2013. He won Monte Carlo and crushed during the indoor season. He had the upset loss in Cincy, but he didn't play bad at USO by any stretch. He did much worse in 2014 summer HC season.
 

Hitman

Legend
Djokovic had a great 2013. He won Monte Carlo and crushed during the indoor season. He had the upset loss in Cincy, but he didn't play bad at USO by any stretch. He did much worse in 2014 summer HC season.
Djokovic had a decent 2013 for sure, but I wouldn't say it was great by his standards. He lost to his pigeon Del Potro in IW, he was outclassed by old man Haas in Miami - 2013 was the only year between 2011 and 2016 that he didn't win the title there, he lost to Dimitrov in Madrid allowing the crowd to get to him, then choked away a lead to another pigeon of his Berdych in Rome, and then losses to Isner at Cincy. A great Djokovic wouldn't have so many losses and many of them simply being his mind going on walkabouts. He did pick his game back up in the fall from a mental stand point though, his indoor season was solid from the mental aspect.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Djokovic was in puberty in 2013. Since then he is a completely different player , fantastic on serve , more solid mentally and has no issues in waiting for his time in the match

Nasal fails completely against this version of Novak
 

Martin J

Semi-Pro
There was a huge improvement in Novak's game in their encounter at Beijing that year, he had learned how to handle Nadal's slice. That was a shot that had been torturing him during their 2013 HC encounters, usually eliciting a short reply from Djokovic that Nadal brutally punished with his forehand. In Beijing, Novak was eating that shot, usually responding to it by sending a ball to either corner (with pace), not giving Nadal enough room to fully employ his forehand.
Since then, he hasn't lost to Nadal on hard court.
 

Hitman

Legend
There was a huge improvement in Novak's game in their encounter at Beijing that year, he had learned how to handle Nadal's slice. That was a shot that had been torturing him during their 2013 HC encounters, usually eliciting a short reply from Djokovic that Nadal brutally punished with his forehand. In Beijing, Novak was eating that shot, usually responding to it by sending a ball to either corner (with pace), not giving Nadal enough room to fully employ his forehand.
Since then, he hasn't lost to Nadal on hard court.
Yes, I remember that tactic he brought. He basically worked Nadal out with that counter and took away a big weapon that Nadal was using against him. Nadal cannot use that anymore to the same effect.
 
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