StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Hitting 3 forehand winners is pathetic not just for Nadal in RG, but for any top-100 player. Today was clearly better level.
RG R1: ZVEREV v NADAL
- Thread starter Halba
- Start date
pirhaksar
Professional
I agree. That’s why I don’t buy injury excuses from anyone. If you show up to play, you better put up or gtfo.
pirhaksar
Professional
Yes best version of Rafa would beat Zed at FO in straights, no doubt.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Unless Nadal fixes his serving and returning issues, I'm afraid it's over. His groundstrokes are still there, but at 38 he can't rely on them anymore like he used to.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Time Has Come TodayThe GOAT can lose any match now
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Zverev beats up on an old, long out of form player. Not a memorable or important match.
Rattler
Hall of Fame
Well Zverev held his nerve, although there were a few moments I thought he’s crack.
Nadal didn’t look too good
Phenomenal
Hall of Fame
FH, FH and a FH for me. I'm not used to seeing Nadal's FH doesn't do damage. He even returned well(it looked while watching) moved fine. But couldn't hit through Z. Yeah Zverev defended well and played well and conditions made it even worse for his forehand but still it's not good since the comeback this year imo.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Zedbot played awesome tennis. We are used to seeing Zod go into his shell in big moments at majors but not today. His new commitment to the DTL forehand is a revelation.
Nadal looked SO good for a lot of this match. In some ways I can’t believe that he brought this level from nowhere after how bad he has looked this clay season but then again it’s Rafa on PC so I guess we should have expected this! I thought he was going to win the match when he swung that momentum in the second set with that break.
@Phenomenal - I hear you regarding the FH from Nadal. Hard to push through and develop the feelings and full power he needed on it in the tough and slow conditions. I think Rafa and Zverev were struggling a little with the visual of the new roof also. The power and level from Zverev and Nadal was pretty impressive given the pressures and conditions they were dealing with in a R1 match. Crazy to have to start in 5th gear in a round 1 match.
Nadal looked SO good for a lot of this match. In some ways I can’t believe that he brought this level from nowhere after how bad he has looked this clay season but then again it’s Rafa on PC so I guess we should have expected this! I thought he was going to win the match when he swung that momentum in the second set with that break.
@Phenomenal - I hear you regarding the FH from Nadal. Hard to push through and develop the feelings and full power he needed on it in the tough and slow conditions. I think Rafa and Zverev were struggling a little with the visual of the new roof also. The power and level from Zverev and Nadal was pretty impressive given the pressures and conditions they were dealing with in a R1 match. Crazy to have to start in 5th gear in a round 1 match.
Zverev is not a bot, he's got all the shots: drop shots, volleys, smash etc.
JohnnyMac Fan!
Legend
Thats pretty dumb comment
Move
Hall of Fame
Thank you for this very eloquent thought. 100 likes !
But of course, every match takes a little more toll on his body. He may have made the quarters, but I’m afraid he would have had a humiliating exit. At least, yesterday he went out with a very respectable performance.
What a rotten attitude
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
Very respectful interview.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Even if he got a rookie, he wouldn't have lasted the full tournament, I feel. It is something he knew going in.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
The next 2 to 3 rounds are incredibly important for Zverev, if he suffers a huge let down of focus then he will lose easily. IF not then he can win the title here.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Boris Becker or Lendl said you can't win a slam in first week but you can lose it in first week.
What you said is very generic. And it is adding almost no value. Of course if Zverev played bad he can lose in week 1 just like sinner or Djokovic.
But there is NO and I will repeat NO guarantees that even if Zverev moves past week 1 he will win RG. He has 1 slam final in his whole life playing coric and pcb in QF and SF in the most asterisked conditions.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
What I meant was on the lines of players winning a title and then immediately failing in the next tournament in first round. There is a huge let down after playing Rafa in the FO especially for Zverev when he almost had a career ending injury the last time he faced Rafa in the same tournament.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I got you now. Zverev has had most hopeless career losing matches he should win while winning matches we thought he wouldn't.
I have no hopes from him. And even if he wins a slam I think it's too late to change mind. But yes he is getting better every year.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Does anyone @Waspsting have data on Zverev stats yesterday ? His fh was amazing.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Rg gave the data themselves
Fh winner 11 vs 8
Fh ue 13 vs 8
Fh forced error 12 vs 9
Bh winner 9 vs 2
Bh ue 8 vs 16
Bh forced error 9 vs 16
Nadal backhand let him down time and time again. Zverev went bhdtl and more often than not got weak reply by Nadal backhand or straight up error. While zverev took the backhand in the rise and hit cc or dtl winners many a times.
Fh winner 11 vs 8
Fh ue 13 vs 8
Fh forced error 12 vs 9
Bh winner 9 vs 2
Bh ue 8 vs 16
Bh forced error 9 vs 16
Nadal backhand let him down time and time again. Zverev went bhdtl and more often than not got weak reply by Nadal backhand or straight up error. While zverev took the backhand in the rise and hit cc or dtl winners many a times.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nadal on backhand was completely exposed. Some said his fh looked good and others said the same about his backhand. The truth is on backhand Nadal was bullied yesterday. His fh and net approaches actually put him in contention while his backhand was worse than even average.
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nadal's backhand stats in 4 losses
Not only did Nadal court coverage reduced drastically between 2009 to 2021/2024, playing more than half the strokes on bh, but so did his BH errors count increased drastically.
So much so that his 2009 bh winner to error % was -5
But in 2024 it became -17
At the same time his running around backhand dropped by 12% between 2009 to 2024 due to reduced speed. This Nadal in 2024 had a weak backhand. In 2021 also his backhand was overexposed but Djokovic at least is able to create very acute angles. Zverev does not have ability to hit very acute angles as he stands very far behind baseline.
| Year | BH strokes/ total strokes % | BH winners % | BH Fcd Errors % | BH UE Errors % |
| 2009 | 41% | 3% | 2% | 6% |
| 2015 | 41% | 3% | 3% | 7% |
| 2021 | 52% | 1% | 3% | 10% |
| 2024 | 53% | 1% | 9% | 9% |
Not only did Nadal court coverage reduced drastically between 2009 to 2021/2024, playing more than half the strokes on bh, but so did his BH errors count increased drastically.
So much so that his 2009 bh winner to error % was -5
But in 2024 it became -17
At the same time his running around backhand dropped by 12% between 2009 to 2024 due to reduced speed. This Nadal in 2024 had a weak backhand. In 2021 also his backhand was overexposed but Djokovic at least is able to create very acute angles. Zverev does not have ability to hit very acute angles as he stands very far behind baseline.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
No, it does not. "Defeating" an older, injured player long past any whiff of a strong form (and one step away from retirement) is not much more than an exhibition. If this match is some "credit" to Zverev, then it suggests his questionable supporters are desperately grasping at anything in order to make some claim about Zverev's abilities since he--up to this date and long into his career--has consistently failed to win a major.
Nonsense. In the case of Nadal, he was an older, injured player--two conditions that any rational person knows cannot be ignored or denied.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
You step on the court, it all counts. This was not an exhibition match, it goes into the record books. You play to win.
What is agreeable is that Zverev beat an older diminished version of Nadal, but to say it doesn't count in just plain wrong. The history books will see it as a win.
pirhaksar
Professional
Yet it counts and gets added in Zverev column as a W. Doesn’t matter if you think it’s nonsense (which is also nonsense), ATP record books don’t go by your personal feelings fortunately for the rest of us. Arguing the quality of the win is fair, after all Zed wasn’t going to beat a peak version of Rafa at the FO.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
@Hitman @pirhaksar @THUNDERVOLLEY
this is not a ground breaking discussion though. Does it matter or not. Nadal is shadow of himself and beating him was much easier in 2024.
What rubbish! What if Zverev had lost?
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
What history will not gloss over: Zverev defeating a Nadal nowhere near the condition which made him a tennis legend. Details matter, and said details do not make Zverev a better player. He was simply fortunate not to face any version of Nadal other than an older, injured one.
Yes, and that's the point, so for the Zverev cheerleaders attempting to suggest he defeated Nadal at the French Open as implied code for "greatness" due to Nadal being the event's most successful player, its simply not going to happen. It the same as defeating Venus at the USO or Wimbledon in this era: a player earns no credit for Venus' history, but defeating an older player long past any hope of being her best.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
It still counts.
No one is saying Zverev beat a peak Nadal here. Everyone knows Nadal is on the way out here. But the match was still legit.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal arrived tired from long matches against FAA and Djokovic and, like yesterday, it was played indoors that time, conditions that favor the game of the lanky German player.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
It does not count as a credit to someone who only "defeated" an aging, injured player knocking on the door of retirement. When some claim that match was "legit", they're using it as a credit to Zverev on the shell of name player, which he has not earned. This was about as serious as an exhibition match, because it also lacks meaning / perspective about the winner's skills.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Calling it an exho is just as bad as saying as saying peak Nadal was defeated. The win counts all the same, it will be in the record books.
Vincent-C
Legend
I think Zverev has a real good shot at winning this tournament.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Very good chance.
Keystoner
Semi-Pro
Do you seriously think @THUNDERVOLLEY is disputing this? Good Lord. How many times are you going to make *this* point? Try arguing *his* point.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Indeed. Tennis players are not video game characters, but some "fans" are as removed from the real consequences in sports as said video game character.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Do not expect that to happen when someone is Hell-bent on trying to shove Zverev into any sort of historical position.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Asinine is correct. Despite Hitman's desperate need to give Zverev a career boost, beating an old, injured player at the doorstep of retirement is not going to do the trick.
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