Rios and Federer - can we compare?

[156MPHserve]

I've heard a lot about Marcelo Rios but have never actually seen him play until today. I was looking at the ATPMasters Series' website and they had highlights of some of the better years for the Masters events and I saw some footage of Rios, and I thought in many ways, him and Federer are very alike.

Obviously Federer's more consistent and dominant than Rios ever was (probably due to height). Can we start a comparsison about these two?

 

[serveitup911]

Rios at his best might give the average day Federer a run for his money. But Rios was a basket case, you never knew if he was coming to play or not. He seemed like a guy with immense talent who did not make the best of it.

 

[EclipseRydr97]

Can you give us a link so we can check it out as well?

 

[tennispro2388]

Here is a link of videos: http://www.tvn.cl/deportes/especiales/marcelorios/

 

[Techniques]

He was a very good player. I remeber when i was little watching and so were my parents. By the way I'm only 13 .

 

[ragnaROK]

Wildly consistant with too much talent. He see him more like a Nastase (in terms of wasted talent and personality) than Fed.

 

[156MPHserve]

http://www.atpmastersseries.tv/

this is the new ATP Masters Series website... if you go to the archives you'll find streams of highlights of some tournaments of the better years.

 

[Galactus]

Can we start a comparsison about these two?

As in technical ability? I haven't seen Rios play - all I know is that for all his talent he reached one Slam final and got utterly owned in straight sets to....Peter Korda!?

 

[Rob_C]

As in technical ability? I haven't seen Rios play - all I know is that for all his talent he reached one Slam final and got utterly owned in straight sets to....Peter Korda!?

Korda was considered to be a very dangerous player. He beat Sampras at the US Open during Sampras' prime, plus he pushed him to five sets at Wimby that same year. I think it was '97.

Rios and Korda's head to head record was 4-4, and Rios beat Korda the next time they played after the Aussie final at Indian Wells 4 & 2, so the Aussie final was most likely a mental issue with Rios

 

[Galactus]

Korda was considered to be a very dangerous player. He beat Sampras at the US Open during Sampras' prime, plus he pushed him to five sets at Wimby that same year. I think it was '97.

Rios and Korda's head to head record was 4-4, and Rios beat Korda the next time they played after the Aussie final at Indian Wells 4 & 2, so the Aussie final was most likely a mental issue with Rios

Yeah, I guess Korda was better than i gave credit for....but what about Rios' achievements?
Did he excel on all surfaces? What were his strengths/weaknesses?

 

[Grigollif1]

I've heard a lot about Marcelo Rios but have never actually seen him play until today. I was looking at the ATPMasters Series' website and they had highlights of some of the better years for the Masters events and I saw some footage of Rios, and I thought in many ways, him and Federer are very alike.

Obviously Federer's more consistent and dominant than Rios ever was (probably due to height). Can we start a comparsison about these two?

Yes, let's star then : One Won 7 Grans Slams the other zero. One spend already three years in the N.1 Rankings, the other about 3 weeks Let's stop there.. Sorry mate, No comparrison there. But, talent wise I agree Rios was a very gifted player but not in the same building as Federer. In my view..

 

[K-kita]

http://www.atpmastersseries.tv/

this is the new ATP Masters Series website... if you go to the archives you'll find streams of highlights of some tournaments of the better years.

But none of Marcelo Rios. The oldest Master Series' highlight that has this site is from 2001, and Marcelo Rios' greats moments were at 1997-98-99

 

[Grigollif1]

I think it would be a valid comparisson between Marat Safin and Rios. Both very talented players, tha many feel are underachieviers in their careers.

 

[!Tym]

Yeah, I guess Korda was better than i gave credit for....but what about Rios' achievements?
Did he excel on all surfaces? What were his strengths/weaknesses?

Korda's one of the most sublime talents in the game. When he was on, he was clutch, extremely awesome, and sublimely talented, considered one of the elite talents in the game, every bit as mecurial as Marcelo Rios was.

When either were at the top of their games, no top player wanted to face them.

Their problems were for both injuries, and inconsistency in the level of their play from match to match. The difference was that Korda wasn't a tanker, he was sometimes just not healthy and/or off and on with his game because he hit flatter than anyone on tour by far, and had VERY little margin for error on his strokes as a result. Rios, on the other hand, was a known tanker, and basically was someone who wasn't as inconsistent in terms of his game per say, but more so in his mentality, Rios wanted to compete only about half the time it seemed.

Both were lefty all-courters, Korda came to the net more and had a lot more height obviously. Both underrated serves, but not overwhelming serves, simply effective serves. Both moved very well, Korda was more of a winner machine. When he was on, he simply flatlined the ball and would stroke clean, LASER beam winners from anywhere on the court off both sides, though it was his backhand that garnered the idolization, such was the singular beauty of it. Both were very good volleyers, with superb touch and court sense. Rios hit with more spin, and had more variety spin wise and in terms of angles. Rios had a slightly better return of serve, and used angles much more judiciously. His signature strength was something you can't quantify, it was his absolute unreadability of his ground strokes. He seemed to suck the ball in like a matador before suddenly spitting it back out at any angle, speed, trajectory, or spin.

Basically, his greatest strength was in the stealthy nature of his shots, you simply could not read the direction of his balls. His technique was extremely economical yet fluid. This allowed him to take the ball on the rise as well as anyone there's ever been at his best, along with superb hand eye coordination. There was not any one thing about his groundies that made them unbelievable, however. Other players could hit harder, perhaps Santoro could hit with better angle, others could hit a heavier ball with more topspin, others could hit flatter, etc.; the nature of his groundies was such that they were very chameleon like, at home on any surface or under any kind of court speed as a result. He was 90 to 95% in every possible facet of a ground stroke, and because he was not a specialist in anyone facet, and his technique so non-commital, it made him a very tricky opponent to play at his best. At his best, opponents would look confused and perplexed, constantly wrong-footed, looking off balance, and constantly mis-reading his shots. At Korda's best, players looked shell-shocked. He had a way of just blitzing opponents, with rifled laser beam winner skinning the lines left and right from unlikely positions.

 

[156MPHserve]

Yes, let's star then : One Won 7 Grans Slams the other zero. One spend already three years in the N.1 Rankings, the other about 3 weeks Let's stop there.. Sorry mate, No comparrison there. But, talent wise I agree Rios was a very gifted player but not in the same building as Federer. In my view..

In my mind I was thinking about ability. Rios may have been lacking some material between the ears, but from what I heard, it was also very hard for him to stay uninjured and be physically fit enough to play a 2 week slam.

I think height had a lot to do with Rios's ability. Had he been a few inches taller, he may have been able to have a better serve and win a few more easy points. Reach would be better too which helps your game in many ways.

I saw a resemblance in his forehand with Federer's though. I also thought he had a nice all court game comparable to Federer's.

Perhaps in acheivement they are miles apart, but in ability, I believe if Rios was on, he could definitely give Federer a run for his money.

 

[156MPHserve]

But none of Marcelo Rios. The oldest Master Series' highlight that has this site is from 2001, and Marcelo Rios' greats moments were at 1997-98-99

You have to click on each individual tournament at the bottom, and then go to series archive. Example, Miami... if you check 2002 Highlights, you'll see some footages of Rios.

 

[Cavaleer]

Verys similar movement....very different mentalities

Rios was probably the most fluid mover on the court I've ever seen, Federer included. He just glided around the court. Maybe Borg was more fluid but I'm not sure.

Rios also had superb shots, not powerful or overwhelming per se, but when his mind was in the game he didn't have any real weaknesses. In this respect he was similar to Federer, although Fed's serve and groundstrokes are somewhat stronger.

Unfortunately, Rios didn't have the head or the heart to match his hands and feet. He wasn't hungry, or something to that effect. Federer, OTOH, is a true champion.

A shame, really. He would have been wonderful to watch in his prime.

 

[Cavaleer]

Excellent summary

Korda's one of the most sublime talents in the game. When he was on, he was clutch, extremely awesome, and sublimely talented, considered one of the elite talents in the game, every bit as mecurial as Marcelo Rios was.

When either were at the top of their games, no top player wanted to face them.

Their problems were for both injuries, and inconsistency in the level of their play from match to match. The difference was that Korda wasn't a tanker, he was sometimes just not healthy and/or off and on with his game because he hit flatter than anyone on tour by far, and had VERY little margin for error on his strokes as a result. Rios, on the other hand, was a known tanker, and basically was someone who wasn't as inconsistent in terms of his game per say, but more so in his mentality, Rios wanted to compete only about half the time it seemed.

Both were lefty all-courters, Korda came to the net more and had a lot more height obviously. Both underrated serves, but not overwhelming serves, simply effective serves. Both moved very well, Korda was more of a winner machine. When he was on, he simply flatlined the ball and would stroke clean, LASER beam winners from anywhere on the court off both sides, though it was his backhand that garnered the idolization, such was the singular beauty of it. Both were very good volleyers, with superb touch and court sense. Rios hit with more spin, and had more variety spin wise and in terms of angles. Rios had a slightly better return of serve, and used angles much more judiciously. His signature strength was something you can't quantify, it was his absolute unreadability of his ground strokes. He seemed to suck the ball in like a matador before suddenly spitting it back out at any angle, speed, trajectory, or spin.

Basically, his greatest strength was in the stealthy nature of his shots, you simply could not read the direction of his balls. His technique was extremely economical yet fluid. This allowed him to take the ball on the rise as well as anyone there's ever been at his best, along with superb hand eye coordination. There was not any one thing about his groundies that made them unbelievable, however. Other players could hit harder, perhaps Santoro could hit with better angle, others could hit a heavier ball with more topspin, others could hit flatter, etc.; the nature of his groundies was such that they were very chameleon like, at home on any surface or under any kind of court speed as a result. He was 90 to 95% in every possible facet of a ground stroke, and because he was not a specialist in anyone facet, and his technique so non-commital, it made him a very tricky opponent to play at his best. At his best, opponents would look confused and perplexed, constantly wrong-footed, looking off balance, and constantly mis-reading his shots. At Korda's best, players looked shell-shocked. He had a way of just blitzing opponents, with rifled laser beam winner skinning the lines left and right from unlikely positions.

You truly hit the nail on the head with these two.

Bravo!

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Korda's lazer beam shots were on fire for those few weeks when he won the Aussie Open in 98. Those 2 weeks, he hardly missed, he was in the zone. Loved the way he took the ball on the rise - reminded me of myself playing table tennis.

 

[35ft6]

I remember Rios' serve being nastier than !Tym gives him credit for. For his height, his serve was extremely potent. It had a lot of lefty spin on it and he moved it around like a mofo. It wasn't an ace machine, but when he was serving well he did what Agassi did but maybe even better, used his serve to draw a sitter he could pound into the open court. When Agassi lost to him in the finals of whatever tournament it was when Andre was making his comeback, he commented that he wasn't expecting Rios to serve so big.

Yes, Marat and Rios are the two biggest mental cases, wastes of talent of the past 20 years. Andre could have been up there with them but somehow managed to turn himself into one of the most disciplined players of the modern era, right up there with Lendl and maybe Courier. I'm just glad Rios is playing the senior tour. I don't want to die without having seen him play live.

 

[!Tym]

I remember Rios' serve being nastier than !Tym gives him credit for.

Who said I wasn't giving his serve credit? I thought it was a very effective serve, but certainly not a Sampras level serve, or even a Byron Shelton serve (all he had really).

In my mind, there are below average serves, such as Chang (for his inconsistency, and attackability of his second) and Schaalken.

The average type serves on tour...such as Muster (decent but not great first and second serves, decent balance between the two however), Bruguera (first serve was actually pretty effective, well spotted, accurate, and difficult to read; but second serve was extremely predictable), Malivai Washington's (same as Muster), Agassi (same as Muster), Arazi (nice blend of everything on the serve, just not potent enough in any one category, due to lack of height could sometimes be absolutely abysmal in first serve percentage), Kafelnikov's (same as Bruguera's).

Then, there are the above average serves, such as Ferreira (pin point, good depth, nice disguise and vareity, decent pace, but nothing overwhelming...like making Arazi a few inches taller, a slight upgrade, particularly with regards to first serve percentage), Rios (lefty, great slice, slinky ultra CASUAL delivery that was very difficult to read as a result, surprising pop but mostly the mixed it up well to keep you guessing, not a huge drop off in my opinion between first and second serves...basically, the ideal philosophy of serving for the short man, high percentage, minimize drop off between first and second serves, like having a 3/4 serve for both and taking your chances, going for the percentages...unlike Chang who pretended he was Marc Rosset or something), Johansson (great first delivery, but not very consistent), Federer (same as Ferreira type serve, but more clutch), Pioline (same as Ferreira type serve), and Korda's (same as Ferreira type serve), Patrick Rafter/Edberg (tremendous kick serves, but not as varied as could be, but having that one outstanding asset greatly suited their style of play).

Then there is a whole 'nother level of serve, the Beckers, the Stichs, the Sampras, the Ivanisevic, the Rosset, the Rusedski, the Arthurs, the Karlovic, the J. Johanson, the Roddick, even David Wheaton before the injuries decimated him as a player. In other words, serves that speak for themselves on their best days, no explanation, no *further* explanatation needed, when the serve can outright win the point for you outright with regularity without you having to do anything in followup.

Hope that clarifies things, trust me I was *not* trying to undermine Rios in the slightest...that little bugger could serve--it's just that to me there is a HUGE distinction between an effective serve and a "boom boom" serve. In my opinion, anything that's not a BOOM-BOOM serve belongs to the simply effective category. It's no diss, just indicative of the marked difference between needing to actually play out a point following your serve and simply ending a point before it ever began.

 

[framebreaker]

why is height in this sport such a big issue in north america? noone cares about the height of a tennis player in europe.
i guess it is the easiest thing to analyse. however, the first thing that comes to mind may not always be the correct issue. tennis is very complicated and so are the individuals' game and style

 

[156MPHserve]

why is height in this sport such a big issue in north america? noone cares about the height of a tennis player in europe.
i guess it is the easiest thing to analyse. however, the first thing that comes to mind may not always be the correct issue. tennis is very complicated and so are the individuals' game and style

I guess it's not so easiest thing to analyse since you haven't gotten what we analyse.

Yes height matters a lot. Taller people can reach higher, making their flat serving much easier to cross the net and close enough to stay inside the service line. A shorter person would have to be much more perfect to perform a flat serve and we're human.

Taller people can reach further. Reaching further helps you on the run, but especially when you're reaching for a volley because there's just about no time to run to the ball. If you're at the net, you have a split second to react to what your opponent has hit. Sometimes those inches extra make all the difference.

Taller people hit harder. I'm not a physics guy so I can't explain but they can hit harder easier than a shorter person.

In short, being tall is a huge advantage.

 

[35ft6]

Hope that clarifies things, trust me I was *not* trying to undermine Rios in the slightest...that little bugger could serve--it's just that to me there is a HUGE distinction between an effective serve and a "boom boom" serve. In my opinion, anything that's not a BOOM-BOOM serve belongs to the simply effective category. It's no diss, just indicative of the marked difference between needing to actually play out a point following your serve and simply ending a point before it ever began.

Yeah, that clarifies things. I guess the gray area is do you evaluate a serve on its own singular merits, or do you evaluate it in terms of how it fits into a person's entire game? At one point, wasn't Agassi leading the ATP, or in the top 2, in the category of held service games? Sure, the fact he had such a ruthlessly effective ground game was a major contributer to that success, but just for the sake of argument I'll propose that your assessments are based too much on the serve and the serve alone. The serve as a preemptive weapon, a knockout punch, whereas I think some players use it more like a really good jab. Agassi and Rios being two such players. They use it to set up the rest of their games to perfection, and to go for more would be to do so at the expense of compromising the rest of their games. And then there's Sampras, who could knock people out with his jabs.

 

[35ft6]

why is height in this sport such a big issue in north america? noone cares about the height of a tennis player in europe.
i guess it is the easiest thing to analyse. however, the first thing that comes to mind may not always be the correct issue. tennis is very complicated and so are the individuals' game and style

It's not that we "care," like it's some arbitrary fixation. Height really does make a difference. All else being equal, a taller person will have more reach, more margin for error on serve, more leverage, more power, and greater access to angles on the serve. I guess it would be strange if we fixated on hair color or the symmetry of a players ears, but in sports size does make a difference. In some sports, being shorter helps. Gymnastics comes to mind.

 

[framebreaker]

i agree with you. however, you guys talk about the advantages of taller people like it is impossible for shorter tennis players to make up for their "disadvantages" in reach...etc.
however, you guys are assuming that a shorter player can not capitalize on his advantages (speed, accuracy...) the way taller people can. and this is simply wrong. If Federer was 3 inches smaller he would still be able to develop a style that would accentuate his advantages as a short person so extremely that he would dominate the scene as he does now (assuming he had build up some muscles and had the same strength of the Federer with the real height).
Basket ball is a similar issue. If you are a tall kid everybody will tell you to play basketball. your parents, your friends, teacher... So, since more taller people are encouraged to play basket ball there will be more professional people in the basket ball leagues even though the accuracy of the smaller people is in generally much higher when it comes to shoots. that's why the tallest people in the nba are fouled so often.