Rocking motion ruins my serve toss

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
I practiced my toss just on my knees where I would toss and then catch with the hitting arm and my accuracy was pretty good. Then I tried it standing still and I could still toss well. When I try to incorporate starting the weight on my front foot, rocking back and then forward again I get this windmill effect where my arm comes in closer to my body and then open up into the court.

Do you think it's the timing on the rocking? Maybe I'm moving too much? Should I try rocking back, staying stationary until the ball is released and then rock forward?
 

Return_Ace

Hall of Fame
What exactly goes wrong with your toss? Just getting it in the right place? Is there any specific variability that you notice (too short/high/left/right etc.)

Have you tried starting from the "back" position and going forward from that into your toss (i.e. remove the front-back part).
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
What exactly goes wrong with your toss? Just getting it in the right place? Is there any specific variability that you notice (too short/high/left/right etc.)

Have you tried starting from the "back" position and going forward from that into your toss (i.e. remove the front-back part).

My slice serve is more consistent than the kick.

With my kick the toss goes too far in front and to the left (I'm right handed). Since I do kick on my 2nd serve it really makes me concerned about double faults and retossing.

Do you lose anything starting from the back position? That seems to help with the toss.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Do you lose anything starting from the back position? That seems to help with the toss.
It didn't seem to hurt the Sampras serve. Many good players have copied this aspect of Pete's serve. Federer had copied this for a while in the 90s before developing his own serve mechanics.


With the Roddick serve, there was even less weight shift. He started with a fairly narrow platform with his weight almost equally distributed. A lot of down & up movement but only a small amount of back and forth.

 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Rocking motion or pendulum motion or both hands up together or not, abbreviated take back, start from trophy etc are usually not the real issues. I have tried all variations. It is simply lack of balance and coordination in non-athletic people who started tennis late. Focusing on the minutiae like these are a waste of time.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
Shift your weight back. Pause slightly and gather your balance. Toss. Shift forward and hit.

It is much easier this way than to toss while moving. You CAN make it work but it takes extra practice.

Venus and Serena are pretty good examples, I think.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
It didn't seem to hurt the Sampras serve. Many good players have copied this aspect of Pete's serve. Federer had copied this for a while in the 90s before developing his own serve mechanics.


With the Roddick serve, there was even less weight shift. He started with a fairly narrow platform with his weight almost equally distributed. A lot of down & up movement but only a small amount of back and forth.


I'd be willing to make due with Sampras's serve. Last time I played I noticed a number of people starting with their weight on the back foot, including the teaching pros.

Shift your weight back. Pause slightly and gather your balance. Toss. Shift forward and hit.

It is much easier this way than to toss while moving. You CAN make it work but it takes extra practice.

Venus and Serena are pretty good examples, I think.

That actually did help immensely! During the warmup I was serving great like that. The only thing is it feels a little weird to not rock back once I started playing a more competitive game. I really had to force myself to have that slight pause and slow down. It really did help get everything under control and my serve was much more consistent! I can't wait to try it out again.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I used to bounce the ball five times in a particular rhythm and then start rocking back. The ball-bouncing pattern got me into the rhythm of the serve and I've done it for many decades. I took a break of 15 months in 2018 and came back and decided to get rid of the bounce as I think that it's a more modern approach and it saves time. The bouncing also isn't great on clay where the ball doesn't necessarily come back to you. So I just bring the racquet to my left hand and rock back and go into my motion. That little lean forward is what sets me or starts the rhythm. Maybe it's my impression of Sampras though my lean forward and rock back aren't as exaggerated.

I don't really think that much about the serve as it seems to work better when I just let it flow. But I've been doing it for a long time.
 

1stVolley

Professional
Don't attempt to toss while you are still in the rocking motion...unless you want to get into Barnum & Bailey's main event or invoke differential equations in order to regulate your toss.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Don't attempt to toss while you are still in the rocking motion...unless you want to get into Barnum & Bailey's main event or invoke differential equations in order to regulate your toss.

That's what I've been doing my whole life! "Down together, up together, scratch your back, swing" is how I was taught so I've always started with most of my weight on my front foot and both arms up, then dropped them as I rocked back, then tossed and raised my hitting arm as I've rocked forward.

During the quarantine I was determined to get my toss under control and was inspired by these videos:



In the Inuit video he says sometimes when we go to the full motion it can throw off the toss and that's what was happening with me. I really think it's that windmill type motion from rocking back and forward. Maybe when I get nervous I speed up and rock even faster, which throws it off even more.

I always thought my toss problems were from bending my tossing arm, how I'm holding it, etc, but once I started with my weight on the back foot and just raised my tossing arm from the shoulder, looking at the contact point it has felt much better. I'm pretty much doing this...


It would be amazing if this finally fixed my toss and I as confident on my serve going forward. I've had multiple coaches look at my serve and not one has ever suggested starting with my weight on the back leg.

I also just found this video and am thinking of trying this as well to get rid of that bicep curl toss of mine for good

 
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1stVolley

Professional
First, a quick aside: "Down together, up together" as a guide for the service motion is a guaranteed way to put a hitch in your serve. That's because you will enter the trophy position as the ball is still going up. To avoid this hitch, there must be a lag between the tossing arm and the racquet arm or the toss has to be really low (which brings other difficulties into play). The down together, up together idea works if, during the "up together" the tossing arm starts a bit earlier. It can feel almost "together" but there should be some necessary lag.

Now, as to the infamous rocking motion. I think the original idea was to get the weight on the back foot as the toss goes up, but in addition to relieve stress and aid timing by adding a short period of rocking before settling on the back foot. However, I don't see anything essentially wrong with doing what you've discovered works for you. The result is the same: weight transfer to the back foot as the toss is initiated and weight shift to the front foot during the forward swing.
 

Mitcheson

Rookie
Most of these comments agree with my experience. If I rock back I find it hard not to toss too early i.e. before the weight transfer forwards (although I usually toss much better in the warm up serves than when a match gets under way, probably because I'm very very relaxed at this point).

Starting on the back foot simplifies it and makes it impossible to toss with your weight going back. I agree that a lag is better and as you lift your tossing arm your racket can move back slightly to counter-balance this.
 
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dlam

Semi-Pro
I definitely feel weight motion when I’m serving my best
I start with my weight on my front foot
Feel really loose with my racket grip holding only with the first two fingers
When I rock back I can feel my muscle over my right shoulder blade tighten up and take over the rest of the serve
Then it’s automatic from there
From the deuce side it’s not as natural so I position my back foot parallel to the baseline like what Boris Becker describes in his video
 
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