Rod Laver has the right to the all time crown

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
My argument was not that Connors was better than Federer or that Federer was better than Connors. My point was simply that Connors isn't exact chopped liver and playing him at the US Open at Flushing is entering the Lion's Den. From a home field advantage to a psychological point of view, it's not easy playing Connors.

Eight out of ten is of course possible frankly for either player but the odds are against it. That's all I'm saying. Federer is winning eight out of ten in his career against all players and that's a fantastic percentage but my point is that Connors is NOT an ordinary player.

Some make it seem that NO ONE is even capable of rallying with Federer, I disagree on that point. Of course Connors can hit with Federer. Can he win fifty percent? Debatable. Can Federer win fifty percentage? Again debatable.

Remember at one point in his career Connors was also considered every bit as unbeatable as Federer.

It really doesn't matter who is right. There is no right answer here but I would guess that 100% of you would love to see the match if we can magically have them playing each other at their peaks. :)

Yes, can you arrange it please:)
 

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
See, I never remember Connors being loved by the crowd in New York at all, until his old age. They could not stand Connors (like myself)--until he was the underdog making his heroic final runs at the U.S. Open.

I also think the Historians are fundamentally misunderstanding the dynamic involved. Federer, especially in his prime, was an unflappable player. He was the stoic Swiss, the ice-man, and the type of player people compared in demeanor with Sampras and Borg. However, as he’s aged he's shown more and more emotion on the court as his career has progressed (and I am interested as to why people feel this is the case), but he’s still not “sensitive” compared to other champions (Mac was a champion who was “sensitive” to conditions on and off the court, Agassi was as well, but not really Federer.) The only time he really get rattled is against Nadal (maybe he throws a little fit against the chair in the Del Potro match, but it‘s as a way of letting off steam because he‘s not executing on the court). Now, he’s “sensitive” against Nadal because Nadal (and only Nadal) presents an extremely difficult match-up for him on every surface except indoor hard courts. Federer’s “sensitivity” is a result of Nadal’s game. I mean, I just don’t buy the argument that most accomplished player of the open era is overly “sensitive” to conditions. BS. Federer is unflappable. Wind tennis? He’s king. US Open? King. Thus, Connors would have to present a unique match-up problem for Federer for this “sensitivity” to even be a factor.

Personally, I think Federer would be a horrible match up for a clean ball striker like Connors. Federer demolishes guys like that. Look at what he’s done to Hewitt. Pound for pound, Connors is no better than Hewitt. Now you called me out on my 8 out 10 prediction. 8 out of 10 is certainly bold, but there’s a better chance of Federer winning 8 out 10 than Connors winning 7 out of 10.

Kindest regards,
Chopin

Yes, Hewitt will never beat Federer LOL:)

Especially on grass:)

Connors at his best would beat Federer at the US Open, he would never allow Federer to get in the zone, and constantly wind him up, and of course out play him:)
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Yes, Hewitt will never beat Federer LOL:)

Especially on grass:)

Connors at his best would beat Federer at the US Open, he would never allow Federer to get in the zone, and constantly wind him up, and of course out play him:)

I'm setting up the match right now. lol.

They're both going to play with T-2000s!
 

ProCoach

Rookie
ProCoach - you mentioned Austin Powell as a student in one of your posts. I grew up with his dad and watched Austin grow up until he moved off. He is a terriffic young man. How is his wrist doing? I talked to him last summer and he was telling me about the problems he had. Thanks.

HI! Man, Austin is one good guy. His wrist seems to be doing very well. As you know, he was the #1 player in the south for the last couple of years and then he had that surgery on his wrist last year and he has had to change his forehand a little. It seems to be coming along quite well. He made it to the semis of the ITF in Barbados and just needs to get his confidence back up. He is working on attacking the net more and getting in. Seems to be doing well. I went flying with him a couple of weekends ago in a Piper Warrior plane that he pilots. He was an awesome pilot! We flew up to see my father (who was a pilot in the Army) and my pops thought he did an excellent job of landing. I can't say enough good things about Austin.........
 

Chopin

Legend
Yes, Hewitt will never beat Federer LOL:)

Especially on grass:)

Connors at his best would beat Federer at the US Open, he would never allow Federer to get in the zone, and constantly wind him up, and of course out play him:)

Yes, but Hewitt is a better play than Connors ever was. Look at Hewitt-Fed head to head.

Connors would win no more than a two to three slams in the modern game, and I think he'd be lucky to get that.
 

Chopin

Legend
Chess, Laver, Club Chopin jumping to my defense at every turn: this was another big win for me. I'm out of here, boys and girls. Game, set & match.
 

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
Yes, but Hewitt is a better play than Connors ever was. Look at Hewitt-Fed head to head.

Connors would win no more than a two to three slams in the modern game, and I think he'd be lucky to get that.

I honestly don't where to start here!

Jimmy Connors, one of the all-time greats. Lleyton Hewitt isn't.

I don't need to look at Hewitt-Federer HeadtoHead. I already know that Federer is an all-time great. It's just funny that after you gave that example, Federer lost to Hewitt:)

Oh, and the modern game wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Connors!

Jimmy at his best, would murder Federer at the US Open for sure. Like I said Federer wouldn't be allowed to stay in his zone, Jimmy would get to him:shock:
 

piece

Professional
Morphy certainly was brilliant. It's really hard to access who is the greatest chessplayer. The FIDE system is changed so that they can limit ratings loss. The ratings are now inflated as opposed to past years.

My favorites have been Capablanca and Fischer. Capablanca has a pure style of chess and is possibly the most gifted player ever, along with Morphy and a few others. Botvinnik, in the 1980's I believe when Kasparov was World Champion mentioned that of all the World Champions he had met it was Capablanca who impressed him the most.

Since you enjoy Morphy, how do you like Alekhine?

Some of the great Russian players are often hard to access. They have an entire team to back them as opposed to one man.

But I enjoy Karpov and Kasparov also. Petrosian is also a great favorite of mine.

I enjoy Alekhine even more than I do Morphy, although I consider Morphy the greater player. I actually have a little chessboard at home with some electric functions and it has several alekhine matches programmed into it. Some of his quick attacking play was astounding. I actually prefer his shorter matches (around 20 moves) just for some of the simply yet brilliantly creative dismantling of his opponent.

I know what you mean about Russians and their backing teams, but I always thought of that as a phenomenon that came in with the cold war, so Alekhine probably was more his own player than later Russians.

I enjoy Kasparov too, but not Karpov so much, or Petrosian for that matter. I can't remember who the match was against exactly, but there was a match during which Kasparov made a daring knight sacrifice that has yet to be adequately analysed. But it worked:) Love his game.

My opinions on chess players are actually quite similar to my opinions on tennis players, in a way. I think Kasparov was a superior player to Morphy in absolute terms (i.e. if the two played Kasparov would win quite easily), and I think this would be true in general when comparing modern players to older players. But this in no way diminishes the superior impact on the game that past players have had - I absolutely recognise that modern players are only superior because they have built on the play of past greats. Also, I believe that modern players being better has no impact on who was the greater genius of the game (as you already know, I think this title goes to Morphy), or who was the greater player in general. Morphy stands out for me because of the gap between his ability and the ability of his contemporaries - something I find more impressive than ability in absolute terms.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
I enjoy Alekhine even more than I do Morphy, although I consider Morphy the greater player. I actually have a little chessboard at home with some electric functions and it has several alekhine matches programmed into it. Some of his quick attacking play was astounding. I actually prefer his shorter matches (around 20 moves) just for some of the simply yet brilliantly creative dismantling of his opponent.

I know what you mean about Russians and their backing teams, but I always thought of that as a phenomenon that came in with the cold war, so Alekhine probably was more his own player than later Russians.

I enjoy Kasparov too, but not Karpov so much, or Petrosian for that matter. I can't remember who the match was against exactly, but there was a match during which Kasparov made a daring knight sacrifice that has yet to be adequately analysed. But it worked:) Love his game.

My opinions on chess players are actually quite similar to my opinions on tennis players, in a way. I think Kasparov was a superior player to Morphy in absolute terms (i.e. if the two played Kasparov would win quite easily), and I think this would be true in general when comparing modern players to older players. But this in no way diminishes the superior impact on the game that past players have had - I absolutely recognise that modern players are only superior because they have built on the play of past greats. Also, I believe that modern players being better has no impact on who was the greater genius of the game (as you already know, I think this title goes to Morphy), or who was the greater player in general. Morphy stands out for me because of the gap between his ability and the ability of his contemporaries - something I find more impressive than ability in absolute terms.

I would also agree that Kasparov would defeat Morphy easily because he was able to built on the past. Bobby Fischer incidentally agreed with you (at least in the 1960's) that Morphy would have been the best player if he had a chance to become familiar with current theory.

Botvinnik essentially said the same about Capablanca as late as perhaps the late 1980's or even early 1990's. I think he said that if you gave Capa 6 months to become familiar with current theory, he would be the best in the world. He was astonished by Capablanca's chess instinct.

Here's one of my favorite games of Alekhine's. It's played against the Hypermodern player Richard Reti in 1925.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_jxibMpUuQ

Incidentally as far as Opening Theory is concerned, it is incredible the depth of the opening analysis nowadays. Sometimes entire games are played and finished and all of it is opening analysis. I played a game many years ago. My opponent was unfamiliar with the opening and he got caught in an new opening innovation and lost the game. I literally didn't have to think for the entire game. I memorized everything from theory. With computers to analyze positions, it only is getting more difficult to find anything new.
 
Last edited:

Benhur

Hall of Fame
I would also agree that Kasparov would defeat Morphy easily because he was able to built on the past. Bobby Fischer incidentally agreed with you (at least in the 1960's) that Morphy would have been the best player if he had a chance to become familiar with current theory.

Botvinnik essentially said the same about Capablanca as late as perhaps the late 1980's or even early 1990's. I think he said that if you gave Capa 6 months to become familiar with current theory, he would be the best in the world. He was astonished by Capablanca's chess instinct.

The most comprehensive computer analysis of world champions conducted to date puts Cabablanca clearly ahead when evaluating accuracy of play. Opening theory is largely taken out of consideration by starting the analysis after move 12, otherwise modern players would be clearly favored. Murphy is not included int his study, but there have been similar ones that show his level of play was rather subpar compared to most of these guys.

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2006/world_champions2006.pdf

Computer analysis of World Chess Champions
Matej Guid and Ivan Bratko
University of Ljubljana,

Some excerpts:

2 Method
We evaluated fourteen classic version world champions, since the first World
Chess Championship in 1886 to the present. Matches for the title of ”World
Chess Champion”, where they contended for or were defending the title, were
selected for analysis.
Roughly, the basis for evaluation of a human’s play was the difference between
position values resulting from the moves played by the human and the moves
chosen as best by the chess program. This approach can be criticized on the
basis that sometimes there are alternative, equally strong moves, and the choice
between them is the matter of playing style and not merely chess strength. We
will return to this issue later and provide a refinement and a justification for this
approach.
Evaluation of each game started on the 12th move, without the use of an
openings library, of course. This decision was based on the following careful de-
liberation. Not only today’s chess programs poorly evaluate positions in the first
phase of a game, but also analysing games from the start would most likely
favour more recent champions, due to vast progress made in the theory of chess
openings. Starting the analyses on a later move would, on the other hand, discard
too much information. The chess program Crafty [3], which we slightly modi-
fied for the purpose of analyses, was used. Instead of time limit, constant fixed
search depth was applied on every move.

Results
[...]
According to this analysis (Fig. 3), the winner was the third world champion,
Jose Raul Capablanca. We expected positional players to perform better by this
criterion than tactical players. Capablanca is widely renowned to be a pure
positional player. On the other hand Steinitz, who lived in an era of tactical
“Romantic chess”, took clearly last place.
The results of blunder rate measurement are similar (Fig. 4). Notice the
excellent result of Petrosian, who is widely renowned as a player who almost
never blundered. Gary Kasparov describes Capablanca with words “He contrived
to win the most important tournaments and matches, going undefeated for years
(of all the champions he lost the fewest games).” and “his style, one of the purest,
most crystal-clear in the entire history of chess, astonishes one with his logic.
[...]
Another criterion was expected number of best move played providing that
all players dealt with positions with equal difference between the best two moves,
as was described in the previous section. It represents another attempt to bring the champions to a common denominator. Kramnik, Fischer and Alekhine had
the highest percentage of best moves played, but also the above mentioned dif-
ference was high. On the contrary, Capablanca, who was right next regarding
the percentage of best move played, on average dealt with the smallest differ-
ence between the best two moves. The winner by this criterion was once again
Capablanca. He and Kramnik again clearly outperformed the others.

4 Conclusion and future work
We applied the slightly modified chess program Crafty as tool for computer
analysis of games played by world chess champions aiming at an objective com-
parison of chess players of different eras. Generally, the results of our computer
analysis can be nicely interpreted by a chess expert. Some of the results might
appear quite surprising and may thus be considered also as an interesting con-
tribution to the field of chess. Capabalanca’s outstanding score in terms of mean
value loss will probably appear to many as such an interesting finding, although
it probably should not come as a complete surprise. As we did in this study,
this result should be interpreted in the light of the comparatively low complex-
ity of positions in Capablanca’s games which is quite in line with the known
assessments in the chess literature of his style. For example, Kasparov [2] when
commenting Capablanca’s games speculates that Capablanca occasionally did
not even bother to calculate deep tactical variations. The Cuban simply pre-
ferred to play moves that were clear and positionally so strongly justified that
calculation of variations was simply not necessary.

[...]
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
The transitive property makes yet another appearance in this thread. Why don't we trace it back to Renshaw and then deduce that Renshaw would be winning slams over Federer?

Tennis is played at a higher level than ever before in the history of the world. The old guys just wouldn't be as good in the modern game. Laver would be lucky to be to 30. Borg's slam count would be cut by at least a third. The modern game is supreme in almost every way. Connors is far less of a tennis player, pound for pound than Hewitt. If serve and volley tactics still worked, someone would be doing it on a regular basis. The game has changed.

Then how does one explain how Rosewall/Laver were compeititive well into the Connors era? And how does one explain how Connors was competitive well into the Fab Four (Agassi, Sampras, Courier, Change) era? And how does one explain how Agassi was competitive well into the Federer era?

Let me make it easy for you. There are transcendent champions who are able to play across a generation....or two in some cases. So, if they are competitive in their generation and competitive with a champion who does the same....old Rosewall/young Connors......old Connors/young Agassi.....old Agassi/young Federer....and the beat goes on.....then it proves that the highest levels of tennis are more consistent than you would have anyone think.

Truth is, Agassi in his mid-30s was the only player to challenge Federer at the Open not too long ago taking him to 5. Truth is, Connors, at night, at the Open was a deadly force for any player to encounter whether he was seeded or not.

Didn't Federer win two majors last year at age 28? It was the French and Wimbledon. He lost the Aussie to Nadal and the US Open to del Potro.

Josh,

Obviously there are several reasons for that. First the obvious is Federer is very talented. Second is Nadal was injured and Nadal is his nemesis.

Connors in 1980 had Borg, McEnroe and excellent players like Vilas and Gerulaitis in his way. Especially Borg and McEnroe.

I think all some people here including me are trying to write is that Connors is very tough and that it would be some matchup to see Connors against Federer in the US Open final at Flushing Meadow. The match would be one thing but the show with Connors doing everything to win would be another. You got to admit Josh, wouldn't you love to see it if it was possible?

Please don't confuse joshdragon with the facts. He's still getting around to actually holding a wood racquet in real life and potentially watching an entire match that isn't just a clip on youtube.


Chopin said:
See, I never remember Connors being loved by the crowd in New York at all, until his old age. They could not stand Connors (like myself)--until he was the underdog making his heroic final runs at the U.S. Open.


Then obviously you are talking about things you do not know about, using conjeture as fact. This does not surprise me in the least.

Chopin said:
I also think the Historians are fundamentally misunderstanding the dynamic involved.

To be able to discuss history intelligently, shouldn't you know at least a little something about it? You have proven time again that you really don't know that much about the subject matter at hand, so why do you persist in eliminating all doubt about your knowledge of the game and its champions?


Chopin said:
Federer, especially in his prime, was an unflappable player. He was the stoic Swiss, the ice-man, and the type of player people compared in demeanor with Sampras and Borg. However, as he’s aged he's shown more and more emotion on the court as his career has progressed


Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. You've dispelled any thought that you had knowledge of today's game now. First, Federer used to throw his racquet, break racquets, and had a temper. This was one of the things Petr Lundgren worked on with him. Federer was far from unflappable. His demeanor cannot then be compared with Borg. Federer even today is prone to outburts unlike Sampras or Borg at any point in their career.

Chopin said:
(and I am interested as to why people feel this is the case), but he’s still not “sensitive” compared to other champions (Mac was a champion who was “sensitive” to conditions on and off the court, Agassi was as well, but not really Federer.) The only time he really get rattled is against Nadal (maybe he throws a little fit against the chair in the Del Potro match, but it‘s as a way of letting off steam because he‘s not executing on the court). Now, he’s “sensitive” against Nadal because Nadal (and only Nadal) presents an extremely difficult match-up for him on every surface except indoor hard courts. Federer’s “sensitivity” is a result of Nadal’s game. I mean, I just don’t buy the argument that most accomplished player of the open era is overly “sensitive” to conditions. BS. Federer is unflappable. Wind tennis? He’s king. US Open? King. Thus, Connors would have to present a unique match-up problem for Federer for this “sensitivity” to even be a factor.


Do you not read well? The whole theme of the Connors argument is that Connors provided a unique matchup for anyone at the Open. Connors won the tournament 5 times on 3 different surfaces. He owned the Open. He played the prince of Modern Tennis, Ivan Lendl, and broke down his game by playing into his forehand in 1983. Connors dominated at the Open like no one else.

Chopin said:
Personally, I think Federer would be a horrible match up for a clean ball striker like Connors. Federer demolishes guys like that. Look at what he’s done to Hewitt.

Who gave Federer the biggest challenge at the Open? Unarguably another great returner and clean striker of the ball, Agassi. Your argument once again falls on its own sword because it has no basis in fact. Federer acknowledge the "special" challenge in playing Agassi. Connors return of serve is on par with Agassi's and his ball strking ability as clean as Agassi.

Chopin said:
Pound for pound, Connors is no better than Hewitt. Now you called me out on my 8 out 10 prediction. 8 out of 10 is certainly bold, but there’s a better chance of Federer winning 8 out 10 than Connors winning 7 out of 10.


And once again, you remove all doubt as to your intent and knowlege of the game. Connors no better than Hewitt? How can one even compare a 2-time major winner with a player who's won 8? Connors won 5 Opens, 2 Wimbledons and an Aussie. Connors won more matches and titles than anyone in the history of the sport. He held the record for longest tenure at #1 for a lifetime. And he did all this while Borg was dominating the tour. He predated and survived Borg, Connors played everyone from Pancho Gonsalez to Jim Courier. And you compare him to Hewitt? Please.
Yes, Hewitt will never beat Federer LOL:)

Especially on grass:)

Connors at his best would beat Federer at the US Open, he would never allow Federer to get in the zone, and constantly wind him up, and of course out play him:)

here here.....

It is clear that chopin's only purpose on the boards is to denigrate anyone who is not playing the game now. He downplays the accomplishments of every player he knows nothing about and reinforces proof that he knows little about the subject matter with each new post.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Rabbit,

You do have to give JoshDragon a lot of credit in that he's willing to listen. He mentioned in a post the other day that he would favor Laver over Federer with wood rackets.

I think the majority of us here are willing to listen and change our opinions if we feel the other is correct. I know my opinions on certain things have changed.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Rabbit,

You do have to give JoshDragon a lot of credit in that he's willing to listen. He mentioned in a post the other day that he would favor Laver over Federer with wood rackets.

I think the majority of us here are willing to listen and change our opinions if we feel the other is correct. I know my opinions on certain things have changed.

Yep, my bad.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. You've dispelled any thought that you had knowledge of today's game now. First, Federer used to throw his racquet, break racquets, and had a temper. This was one of the things Petr Lundgren worked on with him. Federer was far from unflappable. His demeanor cannot then be compared with Borg. Federer even today is prone to outburts unlike Sampras or Borg at any point in their career.
Didn't Fed smash his racquet just last year against Djokovic in the semis in Miami?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-e-Ud-ly04&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9X48FqmoJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfPNROxLgss&feature=fvw
 
Last edited:

pc1

G.O.A.T.

I have no doubt that Connors would get under Federer's skin. How he would react is unknown but let's face it, the guy has cried before.

Somehow if Federer cried in front or appeared to be crying in front of Connors I don't think Connors would console him.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
The most comprehensive computer analysis of world champions conducted to date puts Cabablanca clearly ahead when evaluating accuracy of play. Opening theory is largely taken out of consideration by starting the analysis after move 12, otherwise modern players would be clearly favored. Murphy is not included int his study, but there have been similar ones that show his level of play was rather subpar compared to most of these guys.

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2006/world_champions2006.pdf

Computer analysis of World Chess Champions
Matej Guid and Ivan Bratko
University of Ljubljana,

Some excerpts:

2 Method
We evaluated fourteen classic version world champions, since the first World
Chess Championship in 1886 to the present. Matches for the title of ”World
Chess Champion”, where they contended for or were defending the title, were
selected for analysis.
Roughly, the basis for evaluation of a human’s play was the difference between
position values resulting from the moves played by the human and the moves
chosen as best by the chess program. This approach can be criticized on the
basis that sometimes there are alternative, equally strong moves, and the choice
between them is the matter of playing style and not merely chess strength. We
will return to this issue later and provide a refinement and a justification for this
approach.
Evaluation of each game started on the 12th move, without the use of an
openings library, of course. This decision was based on the following careful de-
liberation. Not only today’s chess programs poorly evaluate positions in the first
phase of a game, but also analysing games from the start would most likely
favour more recent champions, due to vast progress made in the theory of chess
openings. Starting the analyses on a later move would, on the other hand, discard
too much information. The chess program Crafty [3], which we slightly modi-
fied for the purpose of analyses, was used. Instead of time limit, constant fixed
search depth was applied on every move.

Results
[...]
According to this analysis (Fig. 3), the winner was the third world champion,
Jose Raul Capablanca. We expected positional players to perform better by this
criterion than tactical players. Capablanca is widely renowned to be a pure
positional player. On the other hand Steinitz, who lived in an era of tactical
“Romantic chess”, took clearly last place.
The results of blunder rate measurement are similar (Fig. 4). Notice the
excellent result of Petrosian, who is widely renowned as a player who almost
never blundered. Gary Kasparov describes Capablanca with words “He contrived
to win the most important tournaments and matches, going undefeated for years
(of all the champions he lost the fewest games).” and “his style, one of the purest,
most crystal-clear in the entire history of chess, astonishes one with his logic.
[...]
Another criterion was expected number of best move played providing that
all players dealt with positions with equal difference between the best two moves,
as was described in the previous section. It represents another attempt to bring the champions to a common denominator. Kramnik, Fischer and Alekhine had
the highest percentage of best moves played, but also the above mentioned dif-
ference was high. On the contrary, Capablanca, who was right next regarding
the percentage of best move played, on average dealt with the smallest differ-
ence between the best two moves. The winner by this criterion was once again
Capablanca. He and Kramnik again clearly outperformed the others.

4 Conclusion and future work
We applied the slightly modified chess program Crafty as tool for computer
analysis of games played by world chess champions aiming at an objective com-
parison of chess players of different eras. Generally, the results of our computer
analysis can be nicely interpreted by a chess expert. Some of the results might
appear quite surprising and may thus be considered also as an interesting con-
tribution to the field of chess. Capabalanca’s outstanding score in terms of mean
value loss will probably appear to many as such an interesting finding, although
it probably should not come as a complete surprise. As we did in this study,
this result should be interpreted in the light of the comparatively low complex-
ity of positions in Capablanca’s games which is quite in line with the known
assessments in the chess literature of his style. For example, Kasparov [2] when
commenting Capablanca’s games speculates that Capablanca occasionally did
not even bother to calculate deep tactical variations. The Cuban simply pre-
ferred to play moves that were clear and positionally so strongly justified that
calculation of variations was simply not necessary.

[...]

Great comments. I would assume you have Kasparov's books My Great Predecessors.

Capablanca possibly is the greatest chess genius ever and you can understand why he was called "The Chess Machine."
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
The only one Connors can intimidate is the chair umpire. And yet, most of the time he lose!

Connors is not even a tenth as intimidating as Serena!
 

Tina

Banned
here here.....

It is clear that chopin's only purpose on the boards is to denigrate anyone who is not playing the game now. He downplays the accomplishments of every player he knows nothing about and reinforces proof that he knows little about the subject matter with each new post.

Hello Rabbit,

Don't get angry at his posts. He did know what he is talking about but he has his unique styles:). Today is the first day (second day) of the week. Happy Father's Day!!

-Tina
 

Tina

Banned
José Raúl Capablanca

capablanca02-ew.jpg
 

CyBorg

Legend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY&feature=related

This thread has gotten so long and taken so many directions that I have no idea if anyone has posted the clip above. Several major players have just the opposite opinion of Pancho than the opinions that Chopin has of past players. Watch it all the way through.

There is some really dumb and frankly offensive imagery in this involving natives - supposedly as symbols of a warrior spirit, or something to that degree.

Pancho deserves a better product in his honor. Even just plain footage would do. Finding a full-length match with him seems nearly impossible.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
There is some really dumb and frankly offensive imagery in this involving natives - supposedly as symbols of a warrior spirit, or something to that degree.

Pancho deserves a better product in his honor. Even just plain footage would do. Finding a full-length match with him seems nearly impossible.

The documentary was actually done by the Gonzalez family. I just wish I could see a full video of Pancho Gonzalez's matches.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
IMDB lists Nick Athas and Danny Haro as the directors: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1147757

They might be Pancho's descendants, I'm not really sure.

Regardless, the imagery stands on its own and I think this visual motif is regrettable.

Just checked the video. Ralph Gonzalez and Greg Gonzalez, who are Pancho's brother and nephew respectively are associate producers. There is Jorge Luis Gonzalez who is the Graphic Arts Director. I don't know if he's related.

Here's a little article on the documentary.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051018/news_lz1s18pancho.html
 
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piece

Professional
Incidentally as far as Opening Theory is concerned, it is incredible the depth of the opening analysis nowadays. Sometimes entire games are played and finished and all of it is opening analysis. I played a game many years ago. My opponent was unfamiliar with the opening and he got caught in an new opening innovation and lost the game. I literally didn't have to think for the entire game. I memorized everything from theory. With computers to analyze positions, it only is getting more difficult to find anything new.

Thanks for the link pc1

Yes you're right about the depth of analysis. Many endgames have also been completely analysed - although those sequences are often much more subject to contingency and, of course, much harder to remember anyway.

I sometimes wonder if, when chess is solved (assuming it will be), white will be shown to be in a position to force mate from the outset (because of first move advantage), or if chess will be proved to result in a draw assuming perfect play from both sides, or even if white will find itself in zugzwang at some point if both sides play perfectly (thus, presumably, resulting in a win for black). I suppose a forced draw would be the most desirable option of the three because it would give incentive for creative play that moved the game far enough away from perfect play for the players to have to actually think instead of just playing from memory of analysis.
 
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CyBorg

Legend
Still it's interesting for the footage on the legendary Gonzalez. My criticism is that I wanted to see more match play. Matches against Hoad would be wonderful.

Indeed. I'm not sure what's stopping the tennis archives people from digitizing the motherload of matches that is sitting somewhere and rotting.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Indeed. I'm not sure what's stopping the tennis archives people from digitizing the motherload of matches that is sitting somewhere and rotting.

Essentially that's tennis history rotting away. We can fix up old movies, why not old tennis matches?
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
. . . Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. You've dispelled any thought that you had knowledge of today's game now. First, Federer used to throw his racquet, break racquets, and had a temper. This was one of the things Petr Lundgren worked on with him. Federer was far from unflappable. His demeanor cannot then be compared with Borg. Federer even today is prone to outburts unlike Sampras or Borg at any point in their career. . . .

Actually, I recall Borg explaining in an interview that, as a junior, his temper was so bad, his parents threatened to take his racquets and make him stop playing tennis if he didn't get it under control.
 

Clintspin

Professional
I know the film is a little corny. What I was pointing to is the words of Agassi and Connors as to whether a player from the past would be a force in tennis now.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
I know the film is a little corny. What I was pointing to is the words of Agassi and Connors as to whether a player from the past would be a force in tennis now.

I have no doubt Gonzalez would be a major force today. He was a strong smooth gifted athlete with great reflexes, speed and great strength. At 6'3" and a half he was able to hit huge serves and he had an excellent volley.

Remember, Connors played him three times when he was in his forties and Gonzalez played him very tough, winning one match. So Connors had the experience of playing the man and should know.

With Agassi obviously he couldn't experience the Gonzalez style personally.


Thanks for the link pc1

Yes you're right about the depth of analysis. Many endgames have also been completely analysed - although those sequences are often much more subject to contingency and, of course, much harder to remember anyway.

I sometimes wonder if, when chess is solved (assuming it will be), white will be shown to be in a position to force mate from the outset (because of first move advantage), or if chess will be proved to result in a draw assuming perfect play from both sides, or even if white will itself in zugzwang at some point if both sides play perfectly (thus, presumably, resulting in a win for black). I suppose a forced draw would be the most desirable option of the three because it would give incentive for creative play that moved the game far enough away from perfect play for the players to have to actually think instead of just playing from memory of analysis.

No problem. I hope you enjoy the game.

I hope they never analyze the game of chess that deeply by the way.

One solution is Fischer Random Chess in which they change the position of the pieces.
 
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Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Actually, I recall Borg explaining in an interview that, as a junior, his temper was so bad, his parents threatened to take his racquets and make him stop playing tennis if he didn't get it under control.

That is correct, but as a junior. As a professional (age 16 an on) Borg was never again demonstrative on court. The banishment of his racquets to a closet by his father for a couple of months apparently worked for the rest of his career.
 
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