Roddick calls Carlos "the most complete 19 year old tennis player I've ever seen"

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Try to be objective. Rafa did not have either the drop shot or volley that Alcaraz has at 19. Nowhere close.Alcatraz also has the better serve by far if we compare them both at 19.

Ummm nope and nope. Rafa's serve was not as exploitable as Carlo's serve. Rafa wouldn't struggle to hold serve against every semi decent player like Carlos does. If you mean better serve = more mph then i won't argue lol. Rafa's lefty serve was not as exploitable as it seemed.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
How could somebody be this wrong?
Nadal was a much better player in all departments at the similar age.

Teenage Nadal was clearly better as I have said multiple times before, but Alcaraz is more complete as he is significantly better at volleying than teenage Nadal.
 
Ummm nope and nope. Rafa's serve was not as exploitable as Carlo's serve. Rafa wouldn't struggle to hold serve against every semi decent player like Carlos does. If you mean better serve = more mph then i won't argue lol. Rafa's lefty serve was not as exploitable as it seemed.
Year Player​
Hold % [vs top 20]​
Ace %Double Fault %1st Serve In %1st Serve Win %2nd Serve Win %Service Points Won %
2022 Alcaraz
84.7% [82.2%]​
4.6%​
3.1%​
66.5%​
71.8%​
55.2%​
66.3%​
Outdoor Hard​
85.3% [81.5%]​
5.2%​
3.4%​
66.6%​
71.7%​
56.2%​
66.5%​
2005 Nadal
84.5% [79.4%]​
3.4%​
2.1%​
69.2%​
70.5%​
57.3%​
66.4%​
Outdoor Hard​
84.6% [80.6%]​
3.7%​
2.5%​
67.3%​
71.0%​
58.8%​
67.0%​
 
Anyway Alcaraz has probably more tools and variety than Nadal at the same age, but Nadal's had already unreal shot tolerance and consistency from the baseline, which with his speed made him extraordinarily hard to beat on clay, Carlos can still go a bit too wild sometimes and leak dumb errors, Nadal never did that. If Carlos matures a bit and cut off the UEs he will truly be a monster (even more than he already is).
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Son, that doesn't change the fact he was rusty, he even lost Rublev lol. Now try harder.

Rusty Djokovic is about equivalent to a still developing Rune. Both faced Fokina on clay who was playing well, both lost.

You're the one trying son... just not hard enough...
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Anyway Alcaraz has probably more tools and variety than Nadal at the same age, but Nadal's had already unreal shot tolerance and consistency from the baseline, which with his speed made him extraordinarily hard to beat on clay, Carlos can still go a bit too wild sometimes and leak dumb errors, Nadal never did that. If Carlos matures a bit and cut off the UEs he will truly be a monster (even more than he already is).
This.
I'd be curious to see just how few UE Rafa was making back in the day.
I remember him making less than 10 UE on a semi regular basis, but memory can't always be trusted.
@NatF ? @Rovesciarete ? @abmk ?
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
I wouldn't consider YE#1 as a different achievement than just... becoming #1 in general.

But people like Sampras do put value in it, it means you were the best player of that year. It was always considered the third biggest record in tennis, slams first, weeks at number one second, and year ending number ones third....there is a reason why they give a trophy for it at the end of the season.
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Rusty Djokovic is about equivalent to a still developing Rune. Both faced Fokina on clay who was playing well, both lost.

You're the one trying son... just not hard enough...

No offense dude but you need some help. original premise was Djokovic was rusty and he lost , Rune is a basically nobody and he should first win a slam semi first before we talk ,he's 20. If you can't prove he was rusty then stop bothering me and btw stop calling your father son! I am way older than you. I am blocking insecure poster like you.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
He has a case. But that won't matter much in the long run.

Becker or Chang won slams at 17 when the Big 3 weren't even close and they ended up achieving much more.
 

mattennis

Hall of Fame
But people like Sampras do put value in it, it means you were the best player of that year. It was always considered the third biggest record in tennis, slams first, weeks at number one second, and year ending number ones third....there is a reason why they give a trophy for it at the end of the season.
In fact the year-end number-one trophy was much more important for the players than total number of weeks at number one, and it was this way until very recently.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
In fact the year-end number-one trophy was much more important for the players than total number of weeks at number one, and it was this way until very recently.

It's an important record for sure. Alcaraz will go down as the youngest year ending number one and the youngest world number one in history as it stands right now, these are iconic moments that no one else in their teenage years has managed to accomplish. This guy could be setting incredible records before his career is over.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
This.
I'd be curious to see just how few UE Rafa was making back in the day.
I remember him making less than 10 UE on a semi regular basis, but memory can't always be trusted.
@NatF ? @Rovesciarete ? @abmk ?
Think less than 10 UE is probably an exaggeration - that's very low. Can check here: http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/meta.html for some unofficial match stats. Nadal and Alcaraz are different kinds of players, Nadal obviously had the power and he did use it but he was more patient and his mental foundation was based on more reliable and predictable patterns of play - plus he had the best defence to offence I've ever seen. Alcaraz is more of a maverick with his shotmaking, he's like Fed in that regard except Fed was not this physicality developed at 19. It will be interesting to see where Carlos goes from here, I feel like Nadal at has his age had more room to grow from a technical and tactical perspective - though those improvements came thick and fast over the next few years, for Carlos he seems closer to the finished article to me.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Teenage Nadal was clearly better as I have said multiple times before, but Alcaraz is more complete as he is significantly better at volleying than teenage Nadal.
No, Rafa was more complete. Heck, 2005-2006 Rafa would win CYGS in 2022 and 2023.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Try to be objective. Rafa did not have either the drop shot or volley that Alcaraz has at 19. Nowhere close.Alcatraz also has the better serve by far if we compare them both at 19.
Rafa was better at things which are of more importance; namely Forehand, Backhand, Return of Serve, shot tolerance, stamina, footspeed, recovery, anticipation.
Plus, he faced WAY better competition
 

SonnyT

Legend
Starting out, do you remember Nadal as this scrawny kid up to and including 2012 AO?

Don't believe me? Watch any tape of Djokovic and Nadal during 2011!

But 2012 AO was probably the last time Nadal was scrawny! Now he's a tower of strength and power! Where did he go?
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Starting out, do you remember Nadal as this scrawny kid up to and including 2012 AO?

Don't believe me? Watch any tape of Djokovic and Nadal during 2011!

But 2012 AO was probably the last time Nadal was scrawny! Now he's a tower of strength and power! Where did he go?

You're talking about vitamins again, aren't you?
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
No offense dude but you need some help. original premise was Djokovic was rusty and he lost , Rune is a basically nobody and he should first win a slam semi first before we talk ,he's 20. If you can't prove he was rusty then stop bothering me and btw stop calling your father son! I am way older than you. I am blocking insecure poster like you.

Son! Calm down son...

Djokovic wasn't at his best... Fokina played at a high level to beat him.

Rune wasn't at his best... Fokina played at a high level to beat him.

So the only logical conclusions to draw from that is Fokina can be dangerous on clay and Rune, like Djokovic wasn't having a good day...

Instead, you choose to draw the conclusion that Rune isn't going to make it because he lost to Fokina.

Not sure why you're so angry at an old age... calm down, I wouldn't want you to blow your pacemaker.
 

Omega_7000

Legend
He gets hurt a lot for 19-20.

And it’s no coincidence that he plays a pretty punishing style.
So does Djokovic and rarely got injured throughout his 30's. He will be ok as long as he dedicates himself to staying fit and managing his schedule.
 

Razer

G.O.A.T.
No, Rafa was more complete. Heck, 2005-2006 Rafa would win CYGS in 2022 and 2023.

05-06 Rafa was a baby, surely this man is not winning 50% of the slams in any era.


27-08-2007US OpenHardR16LDavid Ferrer (15) d. Rafael Nadal (2)6-7(3) 6-4 7-6(4) 6-2 Stats
15-01-2007Australian OpenHardQFLFernando Gonzalez (10) d. Rafael Nadal (2)6-2 6-4 6-3 Stats
28-08-2006US OpenHardQFLMikhail Youzhny d. Rafael Nadal (2)6-3 5-7 7-6(5) 6-1 Stats
29-08-2005US OpenHardR32LJames Blake (WC) d. Rafael Nadal (2)6-4 4-6 6-3 6-1 Stats
17-01-2005Australian OpenHardR16LLleyton Hewitt (3) d. Rafael Nadal7-5 3-6 1-6 7-6(3) 6-2 Stats
30-08-2004US OpenHardR64LAndy Roddick (2) d. Rafael Nadal6-0 6-3 6-4 Stats
19-01-2004Australian OpenHardR32LLleyton Hewitt (15) d. Rafael Nadal7-6(2) 7-6(5) 6-2 Stats
25-08-2003US OpenHardR64LYounes El Aynaoui (22) d. Rafael Nadal7-6(6) 6-3 7-6(6)
 

thrust

Legend
Factually this is surely nonsense, right? Nadal was more complete than him at 19, his 05 season was far more balanced than Carlitos’ and he even won an indoor title. And both of them bowed out early on grass.

What will be interesting is to see how Alcaraz carries forward his HC form into slams in the next couple of years as this is an area where YoungDal totally disappointed. He could win titles at IW etc but didn’t show up properly until 09 at a slam. Whereas I can see Alcaraz winning the FO AND going deep in HC Bo5 too with regularity by 2025. He could well be the most complete 21 yo ever for example.
Carlitos has already won a hard court slam as well as a hard court masters title. I agree with Rodick
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Roddick is 100% right. Nadal fans won't like him but just like Novak is the most complete player far ahead of Rafa with clay bullying, 19 year old Carlito is complete player ahead of 19 year old Rafa who lost to Wild Card James Blake in R3 USOpen. It is what it is.
Rafa was better on clay and probably nowhere else.
The only reason he was a WC was because he broke his freaking neck the year before and fell out of the top 100. Had he kept his trajectory he would have been seeded at the 05 USO. Besides, it can be argued that 05 Blake played better than anyone except for Tiny Carl this past USO.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
No, Rafa was more complete. Heck, 2005-2006 Rafa would win CYGS in 2022 and 2023.

Alcaraz has the better net game and touch shots by some distance. Game-wise, he's the more complete teenage player, even if nadal was better. We can agree to disagree.

05 nadal wouldn't win Wimbledon, would need some luck to win USO (just about loses to Sinner IMO)
06 nadal didn't play AO, would need some luck to win USO (we don't know about 2023 USO yet, but nadal went down in 4 to Youzhny)
but yes 2 slams in each season is very possible (obviously RG in both years, AO 05 nadal in AO 22 and Wim 06 nadal in Wim 23)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It's not really arguable. 2005 Blake was better than 2022 Cilic, Tiafoe and Ruud.

I think the arguable part comes with Sinner.
But I'd say Blake was better, clearly so, but not by a big margin.

But Nadal 2005 went down in 4 sets convincingly. So can't give him a pass. if he had made it more competitive, different issue.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Think less than 10 UE is probably an exaggeration - that's very low. Can check here: http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/meta.html for some unofficial match stats. Nadal and Alcaraz are different kinds of players, Nadal obviously had the power and he did use it but he was more patient and his mental foundation was based on more reliable and predictable patterns of play - plus he had the best defence to offence I've ever seen. Alcaraz is more of a maverick with his shotmaking, he's like Fed in that regard except Fed was not this physicality developed at 19. It will be interesting to see where Carlos goes from here, I feel like Nadal at has his age had more room to grow from a technical and tactical perspective - though those improvements came thick and fast over the next few years, for Carlos he seems closer to the finished article to me.
Agree on everything, thanks for the link
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
This.
I'd be curious to see just how few UE Rafa was making back in the day.
I remember him making less than 10 UE on a semi regular basis, but memory can't always be trusted.
@NatF ? @Rovesciarete ? @abmk ?

in some matches on grass, perhaps.
not really on clay.

2005 RG final, Nadal had 28 UEs vs Puerta: https://web.archive.org/web/2005060...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day20/1127ms.html
2005 RG semi, Nadal had 32 UEs vs Fed: https://web.archive.org/web/2005060...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day18/1125ms.html

2006 RG final, Nadal had 28 UEs vs Fed: https://web.archive.org/web/2006061...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day20/1127ms.html
2006 RG semi, Nadal had 16 UEs vs Ljubicic: https://web.archive.org/web/2006061...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day18/1126ms.html

2006 Wim semi, Nadal had 16 UEs vs baggy: 2007 Wim QF, Nadal ahd 20 UEs vs berdych: https://web.archive.org/web/2007070...n.org:80/en_GB/scores/stats/day12/1124ms.html
2008 Wim QF, Nadal had 8 UEs vs Murray: https://web.archive.org/web/2008072...n.org:80/en_GB/scores/stats/day10/1124ms.html

probably close to 10 UFEs vs agassi in Wim 2006 as well considering his AM was above 40:

2006 Wimbledon
Nadal - 41.2%
Agassi - 28.9%

This is the highest AM we have for Nadal apart from the '08 Wimb QF over Murray. And Agassi's AM is pretty good, considering it's '06.

I knew Nadal played better grasscourt tennis in '06 than he is often given credit for, though I was not expecting to find an AM over 40%.

Check this thread for many of the stats over the years: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/grand-slam-matches-stats.611970
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
in some matches on grass, perhaps.
not really on clay.

2005 RG final, Nadal had 28 UEs vs Puerta: https://web.archive.org/web/2005060...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day20/1127ms.html
2005 RG semi, Nadal had 32 UEs vs Fed: https://web.archive.org/web/2005060...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day18/1125ms.html

2006 RG final, Nadal had 28 UEs vs Fed: https://web.archive.org/web/2006061...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day20/1127ms.html
2006 RG semi, Nadal had 16 UEs vs Ljubicic: https://web.archive.org/web/2006061...s.com:80/en_FR/scores/stats/day18/1126ms.html

2006 Wim semi, Nadal had 16 UEs vs baggy: 2007 Wim QF, Nadal ahd 20 UEs vs berdych: https://web.archive.org/web/2007070...n.org:80/en_GB/scores/stats/day12/1124ms.html
2008 Wim QF, Nadal had 8 UEs vs Murray: https://web.archive.org/web/2008072...n.org:80/en_GB/scores/stats/day10/1124ms.html

probably close to 10 UFEs vs agassi in Wim 2006 as well considering his AM was above 40:



Check this thread for many of the stats over the years: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/grand-slam-matches-stats.611970
Thanks heaps, his AM = ?
 
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