Roddick or Tsonga, who had the higher skill cap?

Who had the higher skill cap across the board?


  • Total voters
    92

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
2008 AO vs Nadal is peak Tsonga? That said, I've seen performances by Roddick at the AO that would beat that Tsonga. And, it was 2009 Roddick who took out the player who took out 2008 AO Tsonga.
lol what is this terrible logic? That’s like saying 2015 Djokovic beat 2006 Federer at Wimbledon. Novak was so much better in 2008 than 2009 that you’d need to basically have not watched those tournaments at all to make the argument you just made.
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
2008 AO vs Nadal is peak Tsonga? That said, I've seen performances by Roddick at the AO that would beat that Tsonga. And, it was 2009 Roddick who took out the player who took out 2008 AO Tsonga.
To add to this, Tsonga beat 2010 AO Djokovic as well, and he was probably better in ‘10 than he was in ‘09 (both about 2 or 3 levels below ‘08)
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
So Roddick is better at pretty much everything relevant, as both are primarily serve/FH dominant baseliners but yet Tsonga is inarguably the more skilled player?
I’ve never seen magic volleying in the modern era like AO ‘08 SF. And what he did to Fed at Wimby ‘11 was more pleasing to my eye test.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
To add to this, Tsonga beat 2010 AO Djokovic as well, and he was probably better in ‘10 than he was in ‘09 (both about 2 or 3 levels below ‘08)

Think he was better in 2009 on average but obviously the retirement looms large, his serve was actual crap in 2010.
 

duaneeo

Legend
lol what is this terrible logic? That’s like saying 2015 Djokovic beat 2006 Federer at Wimbledon. Novak was so much better in 2008 than 2009 that you’d need to basically have not watched those tournaments at all to make the argument you just made.

My main point is that so what Tsonga beat 2008 Nadal at the AO. If beating Nadal at the AO is the standard for AO greatness, many players are great at the AO.,
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
To add to this, Tsonga beat 2010 AO Djokovic as well, and he was probably better in ‘10 than he was in ‘09 (both about 2 or 3 levels below ‘08)
I think 2009 and 2010 Djokovic were basically equals up until the retirement in 2009. That is a big black mark.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
I’ve never seen magic volleying in the modern era like AO ‘08 SF. And what he did to Fed at Wimby ‘11 was more pleasing to my eye test.
Well if that counts we may as well admit Federer is the undisputed GOAT and shut the whole forum down.

Granted, I admit beauty and aesthetics isn't completely irrelevant for me, but Tsonga's movement is not at all beautiful so while he has a nice looking forehand and good touch it's not particularly beautiful to watch him point in point out. There's not much beauty to Roddick's game sure.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
My main point is that so what Tsonga beat 2008 Nadal at the AO. If beating Nadal at the AO is the standard for AO greatness, many players are great at the AO.,
It’s not just “beating Nadal” that proves Tsonga’s greatness. If we rely on name alone, that hurts our tennis analysis a lot.

No, it’s how Tsonga beat him. He was hitting crazy winner after winner and was basically flawless at the net. You don’t see those types of inspired performances very often.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
To add to this, Tsonga beat 2010 AO Djokovic as well, and he was probably better in ‘10 than he was in ‘09 (both about 2 or 3 levels below ‘08)
2009 Djokovic was definitely better than 2010 until some ways through the 2nd set when he started to wear down. And Roddick was down, but more or less neck and neck with him and got the break in the 2nd playing a great game. 2010 Djokovic was a level down even at the start, 2009 was more of a continuation of Djokovic's general 08 form, maybe not his AO form(but not much different than say his USO form), but tsonga took a breadstick in 2010 to go down 2-1 before Djokovic's serve completely collapsed.

Anyways no one should doubt that 2009 Roddick could have beaten 2010 Djokovic given their general matchup at the time, and the fact that Roddick was even even fitter in a B05 setting at the time, and it likely wouldn't have taken 5 sets either. Roddick would have been hard pressed to beat 2009 Djokovic had he not worn down, but it still would have been a good match judging by how it was going, and 2009 Djokovic was a level above 2010 Djokovic.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
It’s not just “beating Nadal” that proves Tsonga’s greatness. If we rely on name alone, that hurts our tennis analysis a lot.

No, it’s how Tsonga beat him. He was hitting crazy winner after winner and was basically flawless at the net. You don’t see those types of inspired performances very often.
except for Gonzalez the year before, Blake at the USO, Delpo at the USO, Murray at the USO (talk about great net play, Nadal was better here and in 05 than 08 AO Nadal), Rosol, Kyrgios, Verdasco against literally the best version of Nadal.

Sure Tsonga's serve/FH was fierce hit some great volleys, and his performance was right near the top of that list besides Verdasco's which can't be compared to, but it's some unprecedented feat to comprehensively beat a B/C tier Nadal off clay with some flashy winners and huge serving. Or on clay courtesy of Mr. Soderling.
 

duaneeo

Legend
No, it’s how Tsonga beat him. He was hitting crazy winner after winner and was basically flawless at the net. You don’t see those types of inspired performances very often.

Still, Nadal is one player at the slam he's always been his most beatable. The way Tsonga beat him doesn't mean that 2008 SF Tsonga would beat Roddick at the AO...or a host of other players for that matter.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
except for Gonzalez the year before, Blake at the USO, Delpo at the USO, Murray at the USO (talk about great net play), Rosol, Kyrgios, Verdasco against literally the best version of Nadal.

Sure Tsonga's serve/FH was fierce hit some great volleys, and his performance was right near the top of that list besides Verdasco's which can't be compared to, but it's some unprecedented feat to comprehensively beat a B/C tier Nadal off clay with some flashy winners and huge serving.
Him being maybe the best of that bunch (over some of those players, he’s even much better) is the kind of “not very often” to which I refer. Again, as I told the other guy, I’m not talking about just beating Nadal or even the type of tennis—I know Nadal has had his struggles with big hitters in these types of events—I’m talking about the actual quality of play itself that doesn’t come by very often.
 
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Kralingen

Bionic Poster
Well if that counts we may as well admit Federer is the undisputed GOAT and shut the whole forum down.

Granted, I admit beauty and aesthetics isn't completely irrelevant for me, but Tsonga's movement is not at all beautiful so while he has a nice looking forehand and good touch it's not particularly beautiful to watch him point in point out. There's not much beauty to Roddick's game sure.
Well the chart I wrote is a great explainer why roddick was undeniably better and more successful than Tsonga anyways. More reliable on a day to day basis, GOAT level serve, probably better defender if it came down to it. I think him being better than Tsonga is hardly up for debate.

But when you cover the net like Jo did, displaying preternatural body control and touch, I’m inclined to rate that magical AO ‘08 SF as high as about any match in history. Which is what the peak debate is centered around no?
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Still, Nadal is one player at the slam he's always been his most beatable. The way Tsonga beat him doesn't mean that 2008 SF Tsonga would beat Roddick at the AO...or a host of other players for that matter.
Eh, I’d say it’s a good indicator, especially when we have some of Roddick’s best performances at the AO that we can compare Tsonga’s match to.
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
2009 Djokovic was definitely better than 2010 until some ways through the 2nd set when he started to wear down. And Roddick was down, but more or less neck and neck with him and got the break in the 2nd playing a great game. 2010 Djokovic was a level down even at the start, 2009 was more of a continuation of Djokovic's general 08 form, maybe not his AO form(but not much different than say his USO form), but tsonga took a breadstick in 2010 to go down 2-1 before Djokovic's serve completely collapsed.

Anyways no one should doubt that 2009 Roddick could have beaten 2010 Djokovic given their general matchup at the time, and the fact that Roddick was even even fitter in a B05 setting at the time, and it likely wouldn't have taken 5 sets either. Roddick would have been hard pressed to beat 2009 Djokovic had he not worn down, but it still would have been a good match judging by how it was going, and 2009 Djokovic was a level above 2010 Djokovic.
Even with the serve collapse in 2010 though, does that make it worse than Djokovic who was a pathetic shell of a player in sets 3&4 of 2009 iirc?
 
except for Gonzalez the year before, Blake at the USO, Delpo at the USO, Murray at the USO (talk about great net play, Nadal was better here and in 05 than 08 AO Nadal), Rosol, Kyrgios, Verdasco against literally the best version of Nadal.

Sure Tsonga's serve/FH was fierce hit some great volleys, and his performance was right near the top of that list besides Verdasco's which can't be compared to, but it's some unprecedented feat to comprehensively beat a B/C tier Nadal off clay with some flashy winners and huge serving. Or on clay courtesy of Mr. Soderling.
Blake and Murray were not at that level.

Gonzo maybe, but his performace was more unidimensional, Tsonga did serve/FH/netgame, Gonzo was mostly about the FH and movement.
Same with Del Potro.

Verdasco is obviously hard to compare because there is not way to sustain 3 peak level sets against 2009 Nadal.
 

buscemi

Legend
My main point is that so what Tsonga beat 2008 Nadal at the AO. If beating Nadal at the AO is the standard for AO greatness, many players are great at the AO.,

I think it's an important point that he beat both Nadal and Murray at that 2008 Australian Open. With regard to Murray, he came into the 2008 Australian Open right after winning Doha, would follow his AO loss to Tsonga w/a win at Marseille, and would go on to win Cincinnati, make the U.S. Open finals, win Madrid, and win St. Petersburg in 2008.

So, it was multiple big wins at the 2008 AO, just like he had multiple biig wins -- over Djokovic, Murray, and Federer -- in winning the 2014 Canadian Open.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
Blake and Murray were not at that level.

Gonzo maybe, but his performace was more unidimensional, Tsonga did serve/FH/netgame, Gonzo was mostly about the FH and movement.
Same with Del Potro.

Verdasco is obviously hard to compare because there is not way to sustain 3 peak level sets against 2009 Nadal.
Gonzo's served quite well, not as well as Tsonga but pretty good, and also put on a clinic just running way around to bash 2nd serve returns, and even nailing some BHs as well off the return with aggressive court positioning. Not a sustainable formula, but definitely worked that day.and was spectacular.

Blake and Murray faced better versions of Nadal for sure, Nadal had more on his ball on those days for sure compared to pattycake performances like 07/08 AO and 09 USO. I honestly was quite impressed with Murray's performance and always have been, and that says a lot.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
Even with the serve collapse in 2010 though, does that make it worse than Djokovic who was a pathetic shell of a player in sets 3&4 of 2009 iirc?
I wouldn't say pathetic, certainly not compared to the last couple sets of 2010, which was actually pathetic and weak in all areas. 2009 Djokovic just slowed down intensity wise and wasn't competing hard.

In any case the point is that Roddick probably would have been 1-1 with a much better Djokovic than 2010 (as opposed to Tsonga who took a breadstick to go 2-1 down after 2 tight sets, don't see that happening to Roddick even if 2009 Djokovic doesn't fall off), and probably beats the 2010 Djokovic in 4 sets.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Good joke.
A better one: Robredo is equal to Djokovic in skill level. :-D :-D
He is comparing a 1-Slam champion with other 1-Slam champions, while you are comparing a 0-Slam champion with a 20-Slam champion. Roddick is closer to the aforementiones players than to Novak. To compare Roddick (1 Slam) to Novak (20 Slams) is so ridiculous as comparing Thiem or Ferrero (1 Slam) to Federer (20 Slams).
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
Well the chart I wrote is a great explainer why roddick was undeniably better and more successful than Tsonga anyways. More reliable on a day to day basis, GOAT level serve, probably better defender if it came down to it. I think him being better than Tsonga is hardly up for debate.

But when you cover the net like Jo did, displaying preternatural body control and touch, I’m inclined to rate that magical AO ‘08 SF as high as about any match in history. Which is what the peak debate is centered around no?
No that's ridiculous, and we've had this conversation before. There's zero chance 08 SF Tsonga pushes 09 AO SF Nadal as hard as Verdasco did, so definitionally, it's simply out of the question. And there's zero chance Verdasco pushes 05 Fed, etc. etc. Peak is about who brings the best level regardless of opponent, not who can beat some busted big name player or special matchup the hardest. I'm happy to give Tsonga his due because he beat Nadal probably the worst out of anyone, but if you're comparing him and putting him above players up against legit levels, which we know tsonga isn't capable of matching short of serving 75%, then my admiration ends there.
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
No that's ridiculous, and we've had this conversation before. There's zero chance 08 SF Tsonga pushes 09 AO SF Nadal as hard as Verdasco did, so definitionally, it's simply out of the question. And there's zero chance Verdasco pushes 05 Fed, etc. etc. Peak is about who brings the best level regardless of opponent, not who can beat some busted big name player or special matchup the hardest. I'm happy to give Tsonga his due because he beat Nadal probably the worst out of anyone, but if you're comparing him and putting him above players up against legit levels, which we know tsonga isn't capable of matching short of serving 75%, then my admiration ends there.

Sorry to break it to you but Hypothetical and subjectivity doesn't work on objective premise like he would have zero chance or 100% chance. I know it's ttw but still lol.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
Sorry to break it to you but Hypothetical and subjectivity doesn't work on objective premise like he would have zero chance or 100% chance. I know it's ttw but still lol.
Yes I clearly care very much about sounding objective, being perfectly accurate, and making sure absolutely no part of my post can rankle anyone.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
He is comparing a 1-Slam champion with other 1-Slam champions, while you are comparing a 0-Slam champion with a 20-Slam champion. Roddick is closer to the aforementiones players than to Novak. To compare Roddick (1 Slam) to Novak (20 Slams) is so ridiculous as comparing Thiem or Ferrero (1 Slam) to Federer (20 Slams).

"The Tsonga's, Berydch's, Del Potro's, Cilic's of the world all have higher skill caps. Also the Thiem's, Zverev's, Tsitisipas', etc."

tsonga, berdych, zverev, Tpas aren't slam champs.
What he said was ridiculous, to put every half-decent name that Djokovic played over Roddick skill-wise. Atleast half of them aren't in the same ballpark as Roddick.

I only made a joke.
 
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There's zero chance 08 SF Tsonga pushes 09 AO SF Nadal as hard as Verdasco did, so definitionally, it's simply out of the question
Why? It's not Nadal's return of serve of aggression from the baseline that stood out the most in that match.
And Verdasco wasn't walking on water in sets 1 and 3 either.
 

duaneeo

Legend
I think it's an important point that he beat both Nadal and Murray at that 2008 Australian Open. With regard to Murray, he came into the 2008 Australian Open right after winning Doha, would follow his AO loss to Tsonga w/a win at Marseille, and would go on to win Cincinnati, make the U.S. Open finals, win Madrid, and win St. Petersburg in 2008.

The poster has put all his eggs in the semifinal basket against Nadal as peak Tsonga at the AO.

For many here, "peak-level" is often based on how well the player performed not against the field, but against Federer/Nadal/Djokovic. I guess this is why the OP said much-superior Roddick at Wimbledon (who lost to no one but Federer from 2003-2005, and who would've beaten anyone else but Federer in 2009) is just a "bit better" at Wimbledon than Tsonga...because Tsonga beat Federer in 2011.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
The poster has put all his eggs in the semifinal basket against Nadal as peak Tsonga at the AO.

For many here, "peak-level" is often based on how well the player performed not against the field, but against Federer/Nadal/Djokovic. I guess this is why the OP said much-superior Roddick at Wimbledon (who lost to no one but Federer from 2003-2005, and who would've beaten anyone else but Federer in 2009) is just a "bit better" at Wimbledon than Tsonga...because Tsonga beat Federer in 2011.
Well that’s not really a fair representation of what I said but go ahead I guess.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Tsonga had the higher skill cap since he was better at moar aspects of tennis (don’t think Rawduck played anything like the AO 08 SF) and moar surfaces.

That being said, Rawduck was better at what he did best, i.e. serve and FH. For any gamers out there Tsonga is a moar rounded build. Whereas Rawduck used all his skill points in aforementioned serve and FH 8-B
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I think it's an important point that he beat both Nadal and Murray at that 2008 Australian Open. With regard to Murray, he came into the 2008 Australian Open right after winning Doha, would follow his AO loss to Tsonga w/a win at Marseille, and would go on to win Cincinnati, make the U.S. Open finals, win Madrid, and win St. Petersburg in 2008.

So, it was multiple big wins at the 2008 AO, just like he had multiple biig wins -- over Djokovic, Murray, and Federer -- in winning the 2014 Canadian Open.

Murray only really broke through in North American summer HC season (2nd half of 2008). Tsonga's win over Murray in AO 08 was good, but not special.
 

duaneeo

Legend
Well that’s not really a fair representation of what I said but go ahead I guess.

I said that Roddick was better at the AO, and you replied: "Peak level here. I don’t think Roddick has anything at the AO that can top Tsonga’s match vs. Nadal in 2008."

Isn't that putting all your eggs in this one match as peak Tsonga at the AO?
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
I said that Roddick was better at the AO, and you replied: "Peak level here. I don’t think Roddick has anything at the AO that can top Tsonga’s match vs. Nadal in 2008."

Isn't that putting all your eggs in this one match as peak Tsonga at the AO?
That’s what the word “peak” is supposed to imply; it’s what this whole thread is about. One player at his best vs. another player at his best. That AO 2008 match was Tsonga’s best match at the AO, so why wouldn’t I rely on it if I’m making a comparison between players’ peaks? If you wanna argue overall careers, that opens up the scope a bit but the word “peak” forces us to limit it.
 

duaneeo

Legend
That’s what the word “peak” is supposed to imply; it’s what this whole thread is about. One player at his best vs. another player at his best. That AO 2008 match was Tsonga’s best match at the AO, so why wouldn’t I rely on it if I’m making a comparison between players’ peaks?

I think the only reason 2008 SF is considered peak Tsonga at the AO is because he dominated in straight sets over Nadal. No one would be talking about this match being peak Tsonga at the AO had he so dominated over anyone else who was on that side of the draw. But is the 2008 SF really 'peak' Tsonga at the AO? Does this version of Tsonga beat all other versions of Tsonga at the AO? Does this version of Tsonga beat all the players who peak Roddick beat at the AO, and beat those who peak Roddick lost to at the AO? I say no.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
Why? It's not Nadal's return of serve of aggression from the baseline that stood out the most in that match.
And Verdasco wasn't walking on water in sets 1 and 3 either.
Because Tsonga's BH would be eaten alive, he's slower laterally than Verdasco, and it's hard to see his serve/FH game being any better than Verdasco's was in that particular match. It's simply extremely hard to hang in against opponents like 09 Nadal when you only have one layer to your game especially on a slow surface. Roddick also wouldn't do as well as Verdasco, but he has more dimensions than Tsonga does, more ability to defend his BH weakness and hang in rallies, as well as a more consistent serve.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Because Tsonga's BH would be eaten alive, he's slower laterally than Verdasco, and it's hard to see his serve/FH game being any better than Verdasco's was in that particular match. It's simply extremely hard to hang in against opponents like 09 Nadal when you only have one layer to your game especially on a slow surface. Roddick also wouldn't do as well as Verdasco, but he has more dimensions than Tsonga does, more ability to defend his BH weakness and hang in rallies, as well as a more consistent serve.

tsonga might be slower in defense, but he can move around his BH to hit his FH fine. and can finish off points at the net better than dasco. So I don't quite agree.
Tsonga would take it to 5 IMO, just that there'd probably be more troughs than dasco.

Also this:

Just in case people missed it, Verdasco had BPs vs Nadal in only 2 of the 5 sets(1,3) and broke only in the 3rd set (twice)
He did get 30.6% of return points, but didn't cluster em' well in the return games.

 
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D

Deleted member 779124

Guest
Reece is on a long, well-deserved break.
Oh really? He is actually one of the few decent Nadal fans still regularly around in threads even if he does like the ruffle the feathers :)
 

accidental

Hall of Fame
Roddick had arguably the best serve in the game for his entire career. A serve like that is almost more valuable than every other skill combined.
 

Crazy Finn

Hall of Fame
Roddick had arguably the best serve in the game for his entire career. A serve like that is almost more valuable than every other skill combined.
If that's true, how come only one slam?

How many slams or even high level titles does Isner and Karlovic have?
 

Crazy Finn

Hall of Fame
Roddick was a good player who's only elite skill was the serve.

Tsonga had a lot of high level skills, but not the consistency.

Tsonga with a higher cap, Roddick with the higher floor, as the serve keeps you competitive even when other things aren't working.
 

killerboss

Professional
Roddick by a little... more capable of going on runs. In 2003 he was quite a dominant force and won multiple m1000s and the USO.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
2011 Fed < 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2009 Fed.
Not on hard though. At the AO 2004 don't even recall whej did he lose, and at the USO 2003 he lost to Nalbandian, an inferior tennis ñlayer than 2011 Djokovic. 2011 Federer was winning 3 Slams against such field (both Slams on hard, and Wimbledon against his pigeon Roddick, who never beat him in a Slam final or semifinal).
 
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