Roger : best ever, The four of us? That’s a really difficult call.

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
I fear that the self-confident Phoenix1983 will not be ready to read all you wrote (but hopefully I'm wrong).

I read it all, though I'm not sure why the guy is so obsessed with disproving me. Many of those posts are years old, and I'd forgotten about them.

Of course, I shall never believe that Rosewall would have won Wimbledon, or that Gonzales was stronger than Sampras on clay, so the man has wasted his time, I'm afraid.

:cool:
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
XVII)



“Federer > Nadal” is very debatable : Federer has won 4 more Slam tourneys than Nadal. Federer is also superior to Nadal on true fast indoor courts which is “more or less proved” by the fact that the Swiss has won 6 “Masters Cup - ATP World Tour Finals” whereas the Spaniard has won none. “More or less proved” because that event is not played anymore on a fast surface.

But on all other points than these aforementioned, Nadal is superior to the Swiss :

Nadal has a better Davis Cup record, a better Masters 1000 record, a better Olympics record, a better head-to-head statistics than Federer against the other players (On August 19, 2013, Nadal had a positive head-to-head record against every other Top30 player in the world; in 2016 it is not true anymore given that at least Djokovic (and perhaps some new rising player) now leads the Spaniard in H2H).

And in the end Nadal at his best is also better than Federer at his best on any surface except fast indoor courts.


Even Federer’s recent successes over Nadal in 2017 at the Australian, BNP Paribas and Miami Opens are not enough to claim that Federer is undoubtedly superior to Nadal.

federer > nadal on grass ( 7 wimbledons to 2 )
federer > nadal on fast HC ( 5 USOs to 2, 7 Cincy titles to zero)
federer > nadal on slow HC ( 5 AOs to 1, 5 IW & 3 Miami titles to 3 IW titles)
federer > nadal indoors ( 6 YECs)

at their bests, federer is clearly better on grass, fast HC, indoors.

(wimbledon 2003 SF, wimbledon 2005 SF, wimbledon 2006 4R, wimbledon 2006 QF, wimbledon 2009 SF etc)
(USO 04 final, USO 05 QF, USO 06 final, USO 07 QF etc.)

slow HC , one could maybe argue, but IMO, federer's best there eclipses nadal's clearly ( AO 04 SF, AO 05 QF, AO 07 SF, AO 10 SF and F etc.) ...

As far as Davis Cup goes : federer is 40-8 in singles, nadal is 22-1.
But surprise, surprise, 17 of those 23 matches are no clay !
federer has played more and on a larger variety of surfaces.

nadal has only clay & olympics where he is superior to federer.

federer is better in terms of # of slams, better in 3 of the 4 slams, better indoors, more # of years at #1, more # of weeks at #1 , more dominant in his peak years etc. etc.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
federer > nadal on grass ( 7 wimbledons to 2 )
federer > nadal on fast HC ( 5 USOs to 2, 7 Cincy titles to zero)
federer > nadal on slow HC ( 5 AOs to 1, 5 IW & 3 Miami titles to 3 IW titles)
federer > nadal indoors ( 6 YECs)

at their bests, federer is clearly better on grass, fast HC, indoors.

(wimbledon 2003 SF, wimbledon 2005 SF, wimbledon 2006 4R, wimbledon 2006 QF, wimbledon 2009 SF etc)
(USO 04 final, USO 05 QF, USO 06 final, USO 07 QF etc.)

slow HC , one could maybe argue, but IMO, federer's best there eclipses nadal's clearly ( AO 04 SF, AO 05 QF, AO 07 SF, AO 10 SF and F etc.) ...

As far as Davis Cup goes : federer is 40-8 in singles, nadal is 22-1.
But surprise, surprise, 17 of those 23 matches are no clay !
federer has played more and on a larger variety of surfaces.

nadal has only clay & olympics where he is superior to federer.

federer is better in terms of # of slams, better in 3 of the 4 slams, better indoors, more # of years at #1, more # of weeks at #1 , more dominant in his peak years etc. etc.

Nadal did win Cincy in 2013. But otherwise I agree.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I read it all, though I'm not sure why the guy is so obsessed with disproving me. Many of those posts are years old, and I'd forgotten about them.

Of course, I shall never believe that Rosewall would have won Wimbledon, or that Gonzales was stronger than Sampras on clay, so the man has wasted his time, I'm afraid.

:cool:

Phoenix1983, That's all you answer to Carlo's posts?? Really??? (By the way, I wonder that you have read all them with some attention in rather short time).

If these posts would not make any sense otherwise, they just are very important to show how and what you answer to them and what kind of personality you have...

Not wasted time at all. We all can learn rather much from a man like Carlo.
 
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7

70sHollywood

Guest
On a totally subjective level I am so thoroughly impressed by how Federer has redefined himself and the improvements he's made to his game.

Since when? In the last year? Or over his career?
 
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ARFED

Professional
Phoenix1983, That's all you answer to Carlo's posts?? Really??? (By the way, I wonder you have read all them with some attention).

If these posts would not make any sense otherwise, they just are very important to show how and what you answer to them and what kind of personality you have...

It says a lot about your personality that you haven`t called out Carlo`s utter bs when comparing Federer and Nadal. If you still take the guy seriously after that...
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Since when? In the last year? Or over his career?
I meant in recent years to adapt to his getting older. This doesn't happen often and especially at such a late age. I love his aggressive backhand returns against Nadal now and his improved volley. The closest thing I can think of was Gonzalez adapting to Lew Hoad by changing his backhand grip.

I can't help but be impressed by Federer's overall career.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Phoenix1983, That's all you answer to Carlo's posts?? Really??? (By the way, I wonder you have read all them with some attention).

If these posts would not make any sense otherwise, they just are very important to show how and what you answer to them and what kind of personality you have...

Yes, that's all I'm going to say about them. He hasn't convinced me to change my mind on anything, I'm afraid. Also I don't know why he dug up posts of mine from years ago?
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
It says a lot about your personality that you haven`t called out Carlo`s utter bs when comparing Federer and Nadal. If you still take the guy seriously after that...

ARFED, It says a lot about your personality that you are the only poster ever who threatened me (or another poster) severely...

FYI: As I wrote I haven't read yet all these long posts Carlo has written yesterday. I also wrote that I might disagree with Carlo here or there. As you might understand, I concentrated on the Rosewall case when having glances at the detailed posts.

Generally I don't know many posters here who are less biassed than Carlo who clearly is in a class with krosero. Alas, you aren't...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Yes, that's all I'm going to say about them. He hasn't convinced me to change my mind on anything, I'm afraid. Also I don't know why he dug up posts of mine from years ago?

Phoenix1983, Even I would not have thought that you would not comment any of the hundreds of serious arguments Carlo has brought and that you would not be convinced by at least A FEW of them. You have now conclusively disqualified yourself from any serious communication in this forum. Congratulation!

EDIT: You don't reply to any of Carlo's hundreds of points. Instead of it you ignore ALL of them.

Why then do you read and post in a discussion's forum at all?? Do you really insinuate that all (ALL!) of Carlo's serious arguments are stupid and wrong?? Really??

But maybe you are right and the earth is flat. Who knows in this moron world we live in...
 
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Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Phoenix1983, Even I would not have thought that you would not comment any of the hundreds of serious arguments Carlo has brought and that you would not be convinced by at least A FEW of them. You have now conclusively disqualified yourself from any serious communication in this forum. Congratulation!

Please just go away. It bores me talking to you.
 
7

70sHollywood

Guest
When it comes to the old h2h/4 man pro tours I think Carlo abandons his stance on assessing players based on the times and starts applying retrospective thinking. We know from various Krosero reports that some people were ranking Kramer number 1 even after he retired because Gonzalez hadn't won a h2h tour.

For 1953 Carlo counts the Venezuela Pro (!) but not the Kramer v Sedgman h2h. That should be given serious reconsideration, espcially as even Carlo states the 1952 number 1 is highly debatable and it is possible Sedgman, despite being an amateur, was number 1.

I think the h2h tour was unquestionably the number 1 event in 36, 37, 38 and maybe 39.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
When it comes to the old h2h/4 man pro tours I think Carlo abandons his stance on assessing players based on the times and starts applying retrospective thinking. We know from various Krosero reports that some people were ranking Kramer number 1 even after he retired because Gonzalez hadn't won a h2h tour.

For 1953 Carlo counts the Venezuela Pro (!) but not the Kramer v Sedgman h2h. That should be given serious reconsideration, espcially as even Carlo states the 1952 number 1 is highly debatable and it is possible Sedgman, despite being an amateur, was number 1.

I think the h2h tour was unquestionably the number 1 event in 36, 37, 38 and maybe 39.
Sedgman's last amateur year in 1952 had one of the most dominant amateurs years ever despite only winning two classic majors. Whether Sedgman was number one is debatable because some may define number one as the strongest player in the world. I think Sedgman would have lost on a tour with Gonzalez, Segura (this would be close) and Kramer. Do I think that's necessarily the right thinking, perhaps not but it's food for thought.

One thing that I've never done is to look at the relative strengths of the amateurs versus the pros or whether it can even be done with the data we have. Frankly I doubt it can be done. Bill James years ago was able to do this in American Baseball with the minors leagues and the major leagues.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Please just go away. It bores me talking to you.

Phoenix1983, You had announced that you would ignore me. But today you have reacted to my posts. Of course it bores you talking to me because you are not able to find good counter-arguments to my serious arguments. But that's not your greatest problem at all. Your biggest problem is that you even are not able to find convincing counter-arguments (or counter-arguments at all!) to the many, many intelligent arguments provided by Carlo, or, even more blaming for yourself, you find some or many of Carlo's serious arguments convincing BUT you yet refuse to concede that fact!!

Be assured: I will not stop to uncover your many false arguments and your deficits in your behaviour.

In German we now have the new word "Fremdschämen" ("ich schäme mich für einen anderen") which means to be ashamed by another person's behaviour. I confess, "ich schäme mich für Dich". By the way, I guess that German is your native language but I don't have a proof for this claim.
 

ARFED

Professional
ARFED, It says a lot about your personality that you are the only poster ever who threatened me (or another poster) severely...

FYI: As I wrote I haven't read yet all these long posts Carlo has written yesterday. I also wrote that I might disagree with Carlo here or there. As you might understand, I concentrated on the Rosewall case when having glances at the detailed posts.

Generally I don't know many posters here who are less biassed than Carlo who clearly is in a class with krosero. Alas, you aren't...

And you just proved my point. If you call that unbiased then you are beyond redemption. The guy just called Nadal a better grass player than Federer. As i said before, not even on the GPPF you see stuff like that.

BTW, i am glad no to be included in Carlo`s class, he laughed at some of Phoenix statements while at the same time writing some of the crappiest material ever written on this forum (Krosero is as classy as a poster can get, unlike you).
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Carlo, it's great to see you posting. There's a lot of content from your recent posts, more than I could hope to respond to. I will however focus on some of the stuff you've written on Federer/Nadal.



Most of your posts are well written, however your post here on Federer/Nadal is rather superficial. More than that it's the same tired stuff that we see on the general section...

Federer is indisputably better than Nadal on all kinds of HC and grass, overall he leads Nadal not just on Majors and YEC's like you say but also on;

- Time at #1
- Overall dominance
- Consistency
- Longevity
- Total titles

To say otherwise is IMO to ignore facts.

Firstly, meetings H2H are not the best indicator of relative level, something I would assume you are aware of. Instead performance against the field is an infinitely better measure. Nadal leads 3-1 at the AO, but it is important to note that Nadal has met Federer in every single one of his runs where he made the final. That is to say Nadal has met Federer exclusively in his (Nadal's) best form at the AO. Where as Federer's best form at the AO was clearly in 2007, then 2004/2005. I would argue 2009 was arguably at best Federer's 4th best at the AO, where as it was Nadal's absolute best - even then Federer won more points in the match despite falling away in the 5th and without his usual serve. Federer was in very good form in 2012 and lost in a close 4th setter but was 30 at the time against a peak Nadal, even more so in 2014 (where Federer was coming off a terrible year and low in confidence).

Federer has 5 titles to 1 at the Australian. Even if we discount 2017 due to it being far faster, it's still 4-1. Federer also leads Nadal in the H2H and titles at IW, with Nadal's win over Federer being against a clearly injured Federer, and Roger is tied with him in Miami in the H2H and leads 3-0 in titles. Absolutely hilarious that you say Nadal was slightly injured at IW in 2012 but ignore that Federer was clearly far more hampered by his back in 2013 :rolleyes:

Against the top 10 at the AO Federer is 20-9, Nadal is 7-7. At IW Federer is 11-5, Nadal is 9-6. At Miami, Federer is 9-6, Nadal is 7-8.

In total in those 3 events you listed Federer is 40-20, Nadal is 23-21. Bit of a difference right? Even removing the AO this year Federer would still stand head and shoulders above Nadal. Now if you want to mention competition I would mention that Federer has met Djokovic significantly more times than Nadal has at the AO for example.

You even claim Nadal is better than Federer on current grass and fast HC?! Damn your post got more and more crazy as you went on...

7-2
5-2

That's the difference in their records at Wimbledon and the USO. Against the field you'll find Federer dwarfs Nadal there. Federer leads Nadal on HC/Grass h2h as well.

You might point to 2008 for the Wimbledon final, but that's just a single victory against a Federer who was in the troughs of a terrible year by his standards. The final a year before was of equal quality and Federer won that one. More than that Federer's return numbers on grass against the field had already dipped by then e.g. the 2008 Wimbledon final was the best of Nadal but not the best of Federer and Nadal barely won.

Nadal has been very dominant on clay, but he actually has a losing record against top 10 players on HC. No way is he even Federer's equal let alone his superior on hards and grass. Nadal is less consistent than Djokovic/Federer, therefore when does meet them outside of his preferred conditions he's generally on his A game, his B game rarely seems to get him to slam finals. Where as they might make it to the final on their B game and get beaten. Unfortunately for them Nadal was no where to be seen the other X number of times they made it to the various major finals and were in superior form.

You claim Federer is better than he ever was in 2017? I would say you're clearly wrong there...I shouldn't have to explain why tbh. Not when you've extensively spoken about how Rosewall was worse in the 70's than the early 60's!

As far as Murray goes, he got Federer many times in Masters events. Remember even in 2007 Federer lost twice to Canas and 2 twice to Nalbandian in Masters. Murray has beaten Federer but once in a major, after Federer had already played 5 sets in the last round and only after 5 sets. Federer has straight setted Murray in 3/5 of their major meetings. I would change your sentence to, "The scott troubles Federer when he (Federer) is not in form". That's more accurate.

As far as Davis Cup goes, yes Nadal's record is superior there - BUT - he generally plays mostly home ties (always on clay). He also has a superior team to help him.

Singles Gold is less important historically than the YEC - where Nadal has failed year after year.

As far as masters goes, they're less important than Majors - of course - more than that Nadal has 3 on clay but Federer has none on grass.

I would argue your analysis of Nadal's time at #1 (or lack of it) is flawed as well - also your evaluation of Federer's backhand as some great technical weakness seems unfair, when pretty much all one handers struggle with high balls on surfaces like clay.

Frankly after reading your excellent posts on other players I find this one of yours a bit one sided...
Too much to comment on, but I tend to agree with you on this subject.

Again and again I have pointed out flaws in a H2H between Nadal and Fed, and most of it focuses around Nadal having been in Fed's face all the time on clay, where Nadal is without doubt at least one of the two most dominant clay court players in the OE, but Nadal, unfortunately, being mostly MIA in grass and HC majors.

I personally rate them pretty close though. Great clay players always seem to suffer in weeks at #1 and in ranking, something that I believe also plagued Borg, and if Nadal somehow gets to 18 majors (unlikely right now), and Fed doesn't pick up another, I'd simply rate them as even.
 
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Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Yeah I feel the same, the stuff on most of those players was really good and balanced. But as soon as he started speaking about Federer and Nadal (also saying Federer would sh*t his pants playing Borg) it descended into nonsense.

He gives Nadal loads of credit for competition and injuries, but ignores Federer's mono in 2008, back injury in 2013 and knee issues in 2016. Nevermind that Federer has faced the exact same players Nadal has only more often for the most part - as their top 10 record would show.
Hmm...

A little "Nadal" bias going on here, perhaps? ;)
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
Phoenix1983, you haven’t seen evidence that the Davis Cup topped Wimbledon before 1960 so I will give you some references, and sorry for not summarize but I have to give you numerous examples in order to clearly prove that you are deadly wrong on that point :

- Most of the years the world #1 amateur won the Davis Cup competition before 1960 (and even until 1967);

- in 1905, the US team decided to play the British tourneys including Wimby in order to train for the Davis Cup series : Beals Coleman Wright, from the USA, was rated higher than Brookes in world rankings, though the latter did pretty much well at Wimby but Wright later beat Brookes in Davis Cup.

- In 1907 this same Wright was ranked ahead of Wilding though the latter had beaten Wright in a straight-setter at Wimby whereas Wright needed four sets to overcome Wilding in the DC.

- In 1912 Gore beat twice Gobert including at Wimby but Gobert took his revenge in DC and was better ranked than Gore.

- In 1914 McLoughlin won no individual major but his two defeats of Brookes and Wilding in the Davis Cup Challenge Round put him at the top of the world ahead of his victims.

- From 1920 to 1925 Tilden and Johnston trusted the first two places though they didn’t play Wimby respectively in 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925 (and 1926) and in 1921, 1922, 1924, 1925 (and in later years) but both were undefeated in Davis Cup.

In 1925 though he won both the French amateur International and Wimby, Lacoste was only ranked #4 in the amateur ranking after Tilden, Johnston and Richards. Tilden and Johnston had beaten Lacoste in Davis Cup while Richards had defeated Lacoste in the US amateur and none of the 3 Americans had crossed the Atlantic to play the French and the British (Wimby) events.

Read Tilden’s autobiography “My Story” and you will note that his greatest disillusionment in 1927 was not his failures at Saint-Cloud or Wimby or Forest Hills but at Philadelphia when his team lost the DC

(about his Saint-Cloud setback I will use later an argument contradicting one of yours about Tilden).

- Lacoste claimed that his greatest triumph ever was the 1927 Davis Cup.

- Cochet had written in his book ‘Tennis’ (co-written with Jacques Feuillet) : “La Coupe Davis est la plus prestigieuse des épreuves tennistiques. / Elle est la moderne Toison d’or dont ils (les joueurs) rêvent d’être les nouveaux Argonautes" (« The Davis Cup is the most prestigious tennis event. / It is the modern Golden Fleece they (the players) dream of being the new Argonauts”.

- When Cochet lost in the 1st round of Wimbledon in 1931 the French nation was disappointed but it was nothing compared to the fear of losing the DC. That year Cochet’s health had been bad : he was ill since the Italian Champs which he lost in the final then he skipped the French, unable to play, and when he entered Wimby he hadn’t recovered and even at the end of July for the DC Challenge Round it was hoped he wouldn’t play any 5-setter. Happily for him and France he won both his singles in 4 sets : the main goal was to win the team event and not Wimby. And Myers ranked Cochet world #1 amateur (though I contradict his ranking).

- Vines’s defeats in Davis Cup are always considered as great failures in his career and Borotra considered that his defeat of Vines in the 1932 edition was his greatest feat ever, greater than winning Wimby or Roland, both tourneys won by the Basque

(incidentally Vines and above all Allison were robbed in this DC tie and I mean it given that I am French but that’s another subject).

- Henri Christian Hopman wrote in “Aces and Places” p. 141 : “… the world’s most universally sought sporting trophy - the Davis Cup.”. In this book, published early in 1957, he devoted a chapter for each great player of the time and each annual Davis Cup but no chapter were devoted to Wimby.

- Had von Cramm beaten Budge in the 1937 Davis Cup USA-Germany tie, his fate would have been quite different : their match in this event was the match of the year in everyone’s eyes.

When Brookes invited in September 1937, Budge (and Mako) to play in Australia during the following austral summer, Budge began to think about his 1938 season. In the previous years the USA had not won the DC (their last success being in 1926) so they had to play each year several ties in order to win the event : therefore they planned their season based on the DC ties. But at the end of 1937 this process has changed because the USA had just won the DC at last. So instead of playing 12 matches (4 ties) spread over several months as in 1937, Budge had to play only 3 matches (1 tie) over a week-end. It suddenly created a gap in his schedule. So he decided to set goals before the Davis Cup climax. Brookes’s invitation fired Budge’s imagination who then thought of playing the amateur championships of the great nations who had won the Davis Cup that is the USA, the British Isles, Austral(as)ia and France and so he definitely sort of created the Grand Slam (which had been used earlier as, for instance, Alan Gould, did (before Kieran and Danzig) in The Reading Eagle (Pennsylvania), Tuesday, July 18, 1933, http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...3gzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DeIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2327,2495314).

So the Davis Cup is the Grand Slam events’ MOTHER and not the reverse though two of them (the British and US events) were born before (the Davis Cup) but were not then Slam events. This is the Davis Cup which has given these 4 tourneys their future legitimity. Wimby was already a great event but it really became the greatest with the advent of the open era. In the meantime the Slam events have killed their mother by becoming much more important than the modern Davis Cup which now has even less prestige than the ATP World Tour Finals and even any Masters 1000 Series tournaments.

- “…the greatest honor in the lawn tennis world, the win of the Davis Cup.” Stephen Wallis Merrihew (“American Lawn Tennis” editor) in “American Lawn Tennis” April 20, 1938 p. 40.

- In 1939 Bromwich was ranked as high as world amateur #2 by Francis Gordon Lowe, Pierre Gillou and Edward Clarkson Potter though he didn’t play Wimby and only reached the semis at Forest Hills but his team won the Davis Cup (and he won 8 singles out of 10).

Norman Brookes, as President of the Australian Lawn Tennis Association, wanted his country win the Davis Cup and not Wimbledon. Especially in 1939 the Australian team was not allowed to travel to Europe but to go directly to the US in order to recapture the Cup. And for instance a player such as Bromwich had not the opportunity to play Wimbledon at his apogee three editions in a row (1938, 1939, and 1946).

- Mervyn Weston in ‘American Lawn Tennis’, April 20, 1939 p. 34 wrote “… The Davis Cup is regarded far more highly as a prize than individual championship honors (including Wimbledon) …”

In his book “Playing for life” page 95, William Talbert wrote “the climactic event of the tennis year : the challenge for possession of the Davis Cup”

- In 1946 Pétra’s failure in the decisive match of the Yugoslavia-France tie (against Puncec) was more lamented in France than his success at Wimby was celebrated.

John Sheldon Olliff ranked Frederick Frederick Rudolph Schroeder as high as #2 amateur in the world from 1946 to 1948 though the American never played Wimby in those years but he won all his DC singles during that period.

- In American Lawn Tennis, February 1947, page 36 Harley Malcolm wrote “the premier event in the lawn tennis world, the Davis Cup challenge round.”

- In 1953 Rosewall won 2 Slam events while Trabert only won one and didn’t won a single match in the 3 other Slam tourneys (in fact he didn’t enter neither the Australian nor the French nor Wimby). Nevertheless Trabert was considered by the great majority as the #1 amateur in the world because he had beaten Rosewall in the DC Challenge Round (in head-to-head meetings Rosewall trailed Trabert only 2-3 in 1953). Some even considered Hoad as the #1 amateur in 1953 because he had beaten Trabert and Seixas in that DC tie even though he had lost to Seixas something like 6 times previously this year and especially at the French and Wimby.

Carlo, i lost a good part of last nights sleep because of your posts:)
i´m very impressed by your knowledge of tennis history and let me say your writing skills made it very easy to read all your posts.

I don´t think it makes sense to pick a few points out of your above posts and discuss them here. The time will hopefully come, when you will be joining a discussion
here and we can benefit from your knowledge and maybe even "agree to disagree" on some points;)

Please don´t concentrate on trying to convince posters who don´t want to be convinced. It is a waste of your time to try and open closed minds.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Carlo, i lost a good part of last nights sleep because of your posts:)
i´m very impressed by your knowledge of tennis history and let me say your writing skills made it very easy to read all your posts.

I don´t think it makes sense to pick a few points out of your above posts and discuss them here. The time will hopefully come, when you will be joining a discussion
here and we can benefit from your knowledge and maybe even "agree to disagree" on some points;)
I agree. ;)
Please don´t concentrate on trying to convince posters who don´t want to be convinced. It is a waste of your time to try and open closed minds.
Good point!
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Too much to comment on, but I tend to agree with you on this subject.

Again and again I have pointed out flaws in a H2H between Nadal and Fed, and most of it focuses around Nadal having been in Fed's face all the time on clay, where Nadal is without doubt at least one of the two most dominant clay court players in the OE, but Nadal, unfortunately, being mostly MIA in grass and HC majors.

I personally rate them pretty close though. Great clay players always seem to suffer in weeks at #1 and in ranking, something that I believe also plagued Borg, and if Nadal somehow gets to 18 majors (unlikely right now), and Fed doesn't pick up another, I'd simply rate them as even.

Agree with you on the h2h, of course :p

I don't think they're that close in achievements, relatively speaking peak level wise there's going to be small margins between top tier ATG's - but I do think Federer is quite far clear of Nadal overall. I think Federer suffers with the lack of grass tournaments personally ;)

Hmm...

A little "Nadal" bias going on here, perhaps? ;)

Perhaps, that's how it reads to me with my Federer bias at least :D
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Agree with you on the h2h, of course :p

I don't think they're that close in achievements, relatively speaking peak level wise there's going to be small margins between top tier ATG's - but I do think Federer is quite far clear of Nadal overall. I think Federer suffers with the lack of grass tournaments personally ;)



Perhaps, that's how it reads to me with my Federer bias at least :D
I've always been in a weird position, because (as I have said) I'm utterly torn when the two of them play. But I think in the end the major haul will end up the TB when people argue about which of them is better. ;)
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I've always been in a weird position, because (as I have said) I'm utterly torn when the two of them play. But I think in the end the major haul will end up the TB when people argue about which of them is better. ;)

In the wider community the number of majors will probably end up being the defining factor. If Nadal won the AO, the discussions right now would be quite different - despite Federer still being clearly ahead in achievements.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
In the wider community the number of majors will probably end up being the defining factor. If Nadal won the AO, the discussions right now would be quite different - despite Federer still being clearly ahead in achievements.
I'm wary of "achievements" because Sampras and guys after him have to live in the world they created. They all, collectively, made majors more important by far than anything else. To me that means that no matter how many events outside of majors these guys win, they really are putting their greatest effort into preparing for majors. I don't look at tennis quite the same way earlier in the OE. Earlier it seems that player's greatest efforts were divided between majors and big money tournaments, but even by the time of Lendl I think the present mindset was pretty much in place - with perhaps the exception of the AO, which really was not valued as much.

And if Nadal had won the AO this year, the major count would now stand at 17/15, with Nadal going into RG very confident. As it is now, 18/14, I have to lean with you on the side of Federer.

Djokovic would have a legitimate claim to being Fed's equal had he been more dominant in 2012-2014. He would now be about where Nadal is, and his melt-down over the last 9 months or so has really tanked his place in tennis history. To be honest, I'm still in shock over Pepe and his latest decision to fire his team.

What a STRANGE year this has been in tennis...

As usual the real lesson to be learned is not to evaluate any tennis player's place in history until his career is finished!
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I'm wary of "achievements" because Sampras and guys after him have to live in the world they created. They all, collectively, made majors more important by far than anything else. To me that means that no matter how many events outside of majors these guys win, they really are putting their greatest effort into preparing for majors. I don't look at tennis quite the same way earlier in the OE. Earlier it seems that player's greatest efforts were divided between majors and big money tournaments, but even by the time of Lendl I think the present mindset was pretty much in place - with perhaps the exception of the AO, which really was not valued as much.

And if Nadal had won the AO this year, the major count would now stand at 17/15, with Nadal going into RG very confident. As it is now, 18/14, I have to lean with you on the side of Federer.

Djokovic would have a legitimate claim to being Fed's equal had he been more dominant in 2012-2014. He would now be about where Nadal is, and his melt-down over the last 9 months or so has really tanked his place in tennis history. To be honest, I'm still in shock over Pepe and his latest decision to fire his team.

What a STRANGE year this has been in tennis...

As usual the real lesson to be learned is not to evaluate any tennis player's place in history until his career is finished!

Sure, when I say achievements I was only talking within this era generally - though as you know I like to intellectually ********** regarding older era's as well :D

But yes, these days majors are the be all and end all, the pundits make a fair amount of deal about h2h as well (though I find it unconvincing). Really the ultimate goal in tennis should be to stand on top of the mountain at #1. Major hunting was probably more about the glory and prize money than an obsession with raising ones place in history.

I think Djokovic was making claims that he was playing as well as Federer in 2015-mid 2016 - but as you said as far as his career goes he didn't make enough of 2012-2014. I have huge doubts that Federer would have dropped 2 slams to Murray, 2-3 to Wawrinka and one to Nishikori during his best years.

What's been happening to Djokovic is bizarre, I expect he's not done but once the aura is gone and the field starts to believe it can be a vicious cycle.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Be assured: I will not stop to uncover your many false arguments and your deficits in your behaviour.

Well, I'm not going to change who I am, so it's a pretty fruitless exercise. But do continue, if you have nothing better to do.

In German we now have the new word "Fremdschämen" ("ich schäme mich für einen anderen") which means to be ashamed by another person's behaviour. I confess, "ich schäme mich für Dich". By the way, I guess that German is your native language but I don't have a proof for this claim.

I learned German to quite a high level in school, but no, English is my native language.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Carlo, i lost a good part of last nights sleep because of your posts:)
i´m very impressed by your knowledge of tennis history and let me say your writing skills made it very easy to read all your posts.

I don´t think it makes sense to pick a few points out of your above posts and discuss them here. The time will hopefully come, when you will be joining a discussion
here and we can benefit from your knowledge and maybe even "agree to disagree" on some points;)

Please don´t concentrate on trying to convince posters who don´t want to be convinced. It is a waste of your time to try and open closed minds.

treblings, Here I want to disagree. I don't think that Carlo's huge current input was waste time (and you "liked" it with conviction) even if the addressee reacts in a very disrespectful way and remains as stubborn as he always was. I believe Carlo's long "epistles" were written as "pars pro toto", as a trial to show how superficially some posters here use to "argue" and how easy serious argument beats bias and hate. (Have not spoken with Carlo about his new imput).
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
And you just proved my point. If you call that unbiased then you are beyond redemption. The guy just called Nadal a better grass player than Federer. As i said before, not even on the GPPF you see stuff like that.

BTW, i am glad no to be included in Carlo`s class, he laughed at some of Phoenix statements while at the same time writing some of the crappiest material ever written on this forum (Krosero is as classy as a poster can get, unlike you).

ARFED, You are wrong: I did not prove your point. I have not called Carlo's Federer/Nadal point unbiased. However, I can agree with Carlo in one point: Federer was and is overrated in comparison to other ATGs.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Well, I'm not going to change who I am, so it's a pretty fruitless exercise. But do continue, if you have nothing better to do.



I learned German to quite a high level in school, but no, English is my native language.

Phoenix1983, Thanks for explaining your native language. I had come to my assumption because in an Austrian newspaper there is a poster who uses almost the identic nick-name to yours'.

It seems you are even proud of your stubborness and your biased argumentation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot stand wrong and unfair argumentation in this forum but also generally (politics, music and so on). And I like to disprove wrong and absurd "arguments" and bad arguments.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
ARFED, You are wrong: I did not prove your point. I have not called Carlo's Federer/Nadal point unbiased. However, I can agree with Carlo in one point: Federer was and is overrated in comparison to other ATGs.
Bobby, I have a strange reaction to Federer being "overrated". ;)

I think I know what you mean, but for me it is the opposite.

I find what this man has done and is still doing to be absolutely amazing. For anyone who knows nothing about tennis, I'd say, "Start by watching Fed."

I know quite a few people who don't care about tennis but are interested in him enough to watch his matches.

Instead, I would say that the problem is that older champions are UNDER-rated!
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
ARFED, You are wrong: I did not prove your point. I have not called Carlo's Federer/Nadal point unbiased. However, I can agree with Carlo in one point: Federer was and is overrated in comparison to other ATGs.

Overrated in that he is perhaps not the open and shut case for GOAT that some say but...underrated by you IMO :p
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Bobby, I have a strange reaction to Federer being "overrated". ;)

I think I know what you mean, but for me it is the opposite.

I find what this man has done and is still doing to be absolutely amazing. For anyone who knows nothing about tennis, I'd say, "Start by watching Fed."

I know quite a few people who don't care about tennis but are interested in him enough to watch his matches.

Instead, I would say that the problem is that older champions are UNDER-rated!

Gary, Yes, the old players are vastly underrated. Everybody knows and praises Federer, many fans and even experts don't know a Tilden or Gonzalez or they think that Federer is much greater than a Gonzalez because he has won 18 GS tournaments while Pancho has won only 2. In this sense Roger is vastly overrated, to some agree also in comparison to Nadal.

The 2017 Federer (so far) is astounding and great but we should not forget that that "GOAT" has hardly won a GS tournament after 2010 which fact I would value as a blame for the "GOAT".
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
treblings, Here I want to disagree. I don't think that Carlo's huge current input was waste time (and you "liked" it with conviction) even if the addressee reacts in a very disrespectful way and remains as stubborn as he always was. I believe Carlo's long "epistles" were written as "pars pro toto", as a trial to show how superficially some posters here use to "argue" and how easy serious argument beats bias and hate. (Have not spoken with Carlo about his new imput).

i think you may have slightly misread my post:)it is of course no waste of time to post and i for one highly welcome Carlo´s input.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Gary, Yes, the old players are vastly underrated. Everybody knows and praises Federer, many fans and even experts don't know a Tilden or Gonzalez or they think that Federer is much greater than a Gonzalez because he has won 18 GS tournaments while Pancho has won only 2. In this sense Roger is vastly overrated, to some agree also in comparison to Nadal.

The 2017 Federer (so far) is astounding and great but we should not forget that that "GOAT" has hardly won a GS tournament after 2010 which fact I would value as a blame for the "GOAT".
Bobby, you must know by now that I think making ANYONE GOAT is pure fantasy.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Of course, I shall never believe that Rosewall would have won Wimbledon, or that Gonzales was stronger than Sampras on clay, so the man has wasted his time, I'm afraid.

:cool:

the first part is speculation, upto you. But the 2nd part isn't true.

Gonzales was clearly better than Sampras on clay.

Gonzales won atleast 18 tournaments on clay - 3 as an amateur + 15 in the pros (including 2 over Laver and 2 over Rosewall).

made 2 pro tour finals on clay (losing to Trabert in 5 and Rosewall in 4 respectively).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Gonzales_career_statistics

Sampras in comparison won a measly 3 titles on clay and best he did at RG was a SF.
Gonzales made a SF at RG at 40 years of age in 68, beating Emerson in the QF.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
the first part is speculation, upto you. But the 2nd part isn't true.

Gonzales was clearly better than Sampras on clay.

Gonzales won atleast 18 tournaments on clay - 3 in open era + 15 in the pros (including 2 over Laver and 2 over Rosewall).

made 2 pro tour finals on clay (losing to Trabert in 5 and Rosewall in 4 respectively).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Gonzales_career_statistics

Sampras in comparison won a measly 3 titles on clay and best he did at RG was a SF.
Gonzales made a SF at RG at 40 years of age in 68, beating Emerson in the QF.

abmk, I agree but the French Pro was not pro tour finals.

Regarding Rosewall/Wimbledon it's of course speculation but Phoenix does know that Rosewall would never have won! Of course we should go after probability. Thus it's likely that Rosewall would have won at least once. He was the strongest grasscourter in 1961, 1962, and 1965.

EDIT: I forgot 1963 when Rosewall demolished Laver on grass.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
abmk, I agree but the French Pro was not pro tour finals.

Regarding Rosewall/Wimbledon it's of course speculation but Phoenix does know that Rosewall would never have won! Of course we should go after probability. Thus it's likely that Rosewall would have won at least once. He was the strongest grasscourter in 1961, 1962, and 1965.

yeah, Rosewall would probably have won atleast one Wimby, but I'm not going to get into that debate with Phoenix over that.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
yeah, Rosewall would probably have won atleast one Wimby, but I'm not going to get into that debate with Phoenix over that.

abmk, You truly cannot get into a discussion with a person who definitely KNOWS what would have happened and who does not care about probabilities but insinuate the probable is improbable...
 
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mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nadal being better than Fed on HC and grass made me laugh :D

Rafa is not even top 5 on HC and grass, but he is better than Roger. Yep....
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
the first part is speculation, upto you. But the 2nd part isn't true.

Gonzales was clearly better than Sampras on clay.

Gonzales won atleast 18 tournaments on clay - 3 as an amateur + 15 in the pros (including 2 over Laver and 2 over Rosewall).

made 2 pro tour finals on clay (losing to Trabert in 5 and Rosewall in 4 respectively).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Gonzales_career_statistics

Sampras in comparison won a measly 3 titles on clay and best he did at RG was a SF.
Gonzales made a SF at RG at 40 years of age in 68, beating Emerson in the QF.

Neither man won a clay major. No discernible difference in their clay prowess to me.
 

joe sch

Legend
To me, best player in the open era would BEAT best player in the pre-era.

Just like Graf(best in the open era) would beat Court(best in the pre-era).

It's no contest.
"It's no contest" because its a diff era. Diff rackets and courts. No contest with wood on fast unpredictable grass ?
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Before last year when Novak won the French would you have said the same thing re. him versus Pete on clay?

Obviously Djokovic had proven himself better than Pete on clay, but not to the extent that it would have mattered in GOAT debates (IMHO).
 
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