ericsson
Hall of Fame
Hmm that's quite a statement
Equijet, are you located in Europe?
Thanks for the nice pics, you really shed some light in here...
Roger Federer racket (85 & 90sq) circa 2002-03
- Thread starter Equijet
- Start date
Hmm that's quite a statement
Equijet, are you located in Europe?
Thanks for the nice pics, you really shed some light in here...
AlpineCadet
Hall of Fame
PST90 is double braided. Here are some pictures that I just took of the DB:
Take a look at the OP's pictures:
So then the question should be: if the k90 isn't double braided, then is it single braided?
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
What you are seeing there is the top braided layer of graphite and HyperCarbon. The second braided layer of graphite and Kevlar is underneath the top layer so you can't see it from the outside. Notice that even the "Double Braided" logo decal inside the throat shows the two layers. Each layer is single braided, but since there are TWO single braided layers, Wilson calls it "double braided".PST90 is double braided. Here are some pictures that I just took of the DB:
Take a look at the OP's pictures:
So then the question should be: if the k90 isn't double braided, then is it single braided?
The PS 6.0 has "braided graphite/Kevlar" but Wilson never specified how many braided layers they use in that frame. But if what Equijet claims is true, that the K90 is double braided and uses the same structure as the PS 6.0, then they must both have two single braided layers of graphite/Kevlar, since we all agree that the K90 does not contain HyperCarbon.
I'm only telling the truth based on what I've seen and actually know.
Not answered by someone else or any customer services. Basically the customer service (mostly correspondents are ladies),
usually they have no idea what you are questioning about (probably they are also wanted to handle the questions from the fans of Kobe on Basketball issues) and then they will get the answers from the catalogues or the manuals or descriptions on the products. If the racket doesn't state "double braided construction", then you will be model answered that it is not double braided structure. They won't pass your questions to the appropriated engineers to dig deep for the truth.
Basically, braided structure doesn't improve the stiffness or power but good contribution for the shock absorption of ball impact and better inertia condition, it's good feature for control oriented application. As you can notice that the power rackets are very common in unidirectional graphite lay-up structure because the braided structure is too heavy for those super light weight rackets. Modern graphite is very strong sufficiently to generate tons of power, Karophite Black is just a gimmick for marketing purpose.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
However, when I contacted Wilson a year ago and asked if the K90 was double braided, they first said they didn't know and would have to ask their engineers. Several days later, they came back with the answer and said that their engineers informed them that the K90 is NOT double braided.
So how do you actually know that the K90 is definitely double braided? Have you cut one open yourself?
I don't need to cut it to get the answer. As I told that I just reveal what I've seen or acually know, that is the answer. If you don't believe, just ignore what I told. Just cut one piece and proof what I lair to you to get 10 more pieces back, worth to do so, isn't it? Cheers.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
OK, thanks. But could you be a bit more specific or elaborate a bit more on HOW you know and/or what exactly you've seen? Were you involved with the development of the K90 along with Roger? Have you been in the factory and seen them make the K90? Thanks.
OK, thanks. But could you be a bit more specific or elaborate a bit more on HOW you know and/or what exactly you've seen? Were you involved with the development of the K90 along with Roger? Have you been in the factory and seen them make the K90? Thanks.
Maybe I still have a naked K90 (without coating) in my office and able to show to you what is underneath of the painting.
Since I have been traveling overseas, I might show pictures to you guys when I get back home. I wish that it would not be throw away.
I just stumbled on this thread and have found it a fascinating read. Thanks to all -- especially Equijet and BreakPoint.
I'm particularly interested to know how close the composition, construction and feel of the K90 (Roger's racquet, which is the retail K90, we now know) are to the composition, construction and feel of the original 6.0 85 and 6.0 95.
If I've understood what has been written so far, Equijet is saying that the K90 is double braided construction. Does that somehow mean that the 6.0s were also double braided? Or not?
So, the 6.0s were: 80% graphite/20% Kevlar and (single- or double- ?) braided.
And the K90 is: 80% Karographite*/20% Kevlar and double braided. (* whatever that is...)
Please confirm. Thanks in advance!
Thanks to all -- especially Equijet and BreakPoint.I'm particularly interested to know how close the composition, construction and feel of the K90 (Roger's racquet, which is the retail K90, we now know) are to the composition, construction and feel of the original 6.0 85 and 6.0 95.
If I've understood what has been written so far, Equijet is saying that the K90 is double braided construction. Does that somehow mean that the 6.0s were also double braided? Or not?
So, the 6.0s were: 80% graphite/20% Kevlar and (single- or double- ?) braided.
And the K90 is: 80% Karographite*/20% Kevlar and double braided. (* whatever that is...)
Please confirm. Thanks in advance!
galain
Hall of Fame
BIG fan of Guy Forget - what an elegant player he was! Shame about the frames but it's good they're with someone who appreciates them!
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
But like I said above, you cannot see double braiding from the outside of the frame even if it's unpainted. You can only see the top layer, which is of course braided. The second layer is underneath the top layer and you can't see it from the surface. The only way to see it is to cut open the frame and peel off the top layer. "Double Braiding" means there are two braided layers, one on top of the other. I think what you are seeing on your naked K90 is the top braided layer, which only qualifies as single braiding. So unless you peel off that visible top layer, you cannot tell if the frame is double braided or not from the outside.
This pic above shows the top braided layer. The second braided layer is underneath the top layer so you can't see it from the surface of the frame. From looking at this frame (PS Tour 90), you can only prove that it is single braided. Does your naked K90 look like this? If so, that only proves that it's single braided and it's unknown if it's double braided or not since you can't see the second layer underneath this top layer.
So as of now, I'm back to believing that the K90 is not double braided, but just single braided, just like the PS 6.0 85/95 were.
But like I said above, you cannot see double braiding from the outside of the frame even if it's unpainted. You can only see the top layer, which is of course braided. The second layer is underneath the top layer and you can't see it from the surface. The only way to see it is to cut open the frame and peel off the top layer. "Double Braiding" means there are two braided layers, one on top of the other. I think what you are seeing on your naked K90 is the top braided layer, which only qualifies as single braiding. So unless you peel off that visible top layer, you cannot tell if the frame is double braided or not from the outside.
This pic above shows the top braided layer. The second braided layer is underneath the top layer so you can't see it from the surface of the frame. From looking at this frame (PS Tour 90), you can only prove that it is single braided. Does your naked K90 look like this? If so, that only proves that it's single braided and it's unknown if it's double braided or not since you can't see the second layer underneath this top layer.
So as of now, I'm back to believing that the K90 is not double braided, but just single braided, just like the PS 6.0 85/95 were.
Um... You're right, we can't see through the structure by our bare eyes (none of us are superman, right?). My intention to show the naked K90 is trying to explain it is braided all way around the frame from the tail to the tip, not only on the shaft. Of course, it should be very effort consuming to do the autopsy for showing you the layers of the structure and I won't do so.
So, I think it's not necessary to post that naked K90 on this thread anymore, probably I can't show you due to it is already trashed.
I just wanted to share the information with people who are interesting about the rackets what Roger really use and my knowledge in this circle, not to convince anyone that I know more than you or I'm "somebody". If there anyone doesn't believe what I said, then it's OK to me. No matter what I said, just believe what you believe. Cheers my friends!
I just stumbled on this thread and have found it a fascinating read.
I'm particularly interested to know how close the composition, construction and feel of the K90 (Roger's racquet, which is the retail K90, we now know) are to the composition, construction and feel of the original 6.0 85 and 6.0 95.
If I've understood what has been written so far, Equijet is saying that the K90 is double braided construction. Does that somehow mean that the 6.0s were also double braided? Or not?
So, the 6.0s were: 80% graphite/20% Kevlar and (single- or double- ?) braided.
And the K90 is: 80% Karographite*/20% Kevlar and double braided. (* whatever that is...)
Please confirm. Thanks in advance!
The Pro Staff 85 is also double braided. The second layer is graphite and kevlar braided. It's really an old technology, nothing new.
Wilson had a promotional video in 80's what captured the production process in St. Vincent factory and shows the actual structure inside the famous Pro Staff and Ultra 2 from the raw materials to finsihed pieces. Very informative indeed for the public.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Actually, I also believe that the K90 (as well as the PS 6.0 85/95) are braided all around the frame and not just at the throat. I never said that they were braided only in one area. I think it was AlpineCadet that claimed it is only braided at the throat.
Um... You're right, we can't see through the structure by our bare eyes (none of us are superman, right?). My intention to show the naked K90 is trying to explain it is braided all way around the frame from the tail to the tip, not only on the shaft. Of course, it should be very effort consuming to do the autopsy for showing you the layers of the structure and I won't do so.
So, I think it's not necessary to post that naked K90 on this thread anymore, probably I can't show you due to it is already trashed.
I just wanted to share the information with people who are interesting about the rackets what Roger really use and my knowledge in this circle, not to convince anyone that I know more than you or I'm "somebody". If there anyone doesn't believe what I said, then it's OK to me. No matter what I said, just believe what you believe. Cheers my friends!
Anyway, thanks for all the valuable info you have provided so far. We all really appreciate it as the info is indeed truly very valuable. This is the best info we have ever seen on Roger Federer's actual racquet. Most of what has been posted here before you started this thread has been mostly speculation. It's nice to see some facts for once. Thanks again.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
OK, I now see what you're saying. You're saying that both the K90 and the PS 6.0 85/95 are both double braided with the top layer being an all graphite braid and the second layer being a graphite and Kevlar braid. Certainly possible.The Pro Staff 85 is also double braided. The second layer is graphite and kevlar braided. It's really an old technology, nothing new.
Wilson had a promotional video in 80's what captured the production process in St. Vincent factory and shows the actual structure inside the famous Pro Staff and Ultra 2 from the raw materials to finsihed pieces. Very informative indeed for the public.
So if that's the case then all of Wilson's marketing when the PS Tour 90 came out by calling it "Double Braided" and putting the "Double Braid" logo decal on the frames was just marketing and nothing actually new as the PS 6.0 85 had been double braided for 20 years already, the only difference being that the top layer braid of the PS Tour 90 is braided graphite and HyperCarbon while the top layer braid of the PS 6.0 85 is an all graphite braid. Certainly plausible.
ericsson
Hall of Fame
Yep, definitely an insider
this info was kept secret a long time, suddenly he comes along and shed some light, keep it coming equijet!
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proracketeer
Professional
I always wondered why wilson never released the Graf/Hlasek 85 rackets to the general public.
Don't worry, I'll show you as long as I have time to take pictures on my Wilson Pro Staff Graf 85. Great racket!
proracketeer
Professional
Please do so. How many do you have?
Equijet,
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge! I never thought all the speculation about RF's racket ever would end, but thank you for putting an end to that
I've got the standard european K6.1 and I never thought it was *that* close to the real thing. (I just play for fun...)
So if I do buy the "Wilson Champion's Choice Hybrid 16 String" (http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageACWILSON-WCC16.html) and decide to try it "once" it'll be as close as the real thing (without having the real one) lol? What to do I tell the stringer to put where? If I just want to copy RF's frame? How about tension when playing on clay? A little softer than 55?
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge! I never thought all the speculation about RF's racket ever would end, but thank you for putting an end to that
I've got the standard european K6.1 and I never thought it was *that* close to the real thing. (I just play for fun...)
So if I do buy the "Wilson Champion's Choice Hybrid 16 String" (http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageACWILSON-WCC16.html) and decide to try it "once" it'll be as close as the real thing (without having the real one) lol? What to do I tell the stringer to put where? If I just want to copy RF's frame? How about tension when playing on clay? A little softer than 55?
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Well, It's hard to tell you the tangible tension what Roger really string his racket on the clay (even on other surfaces). Because all the pro players won't have a fixed string tension for different kind of counts, climates and other passive conditions. Even though in clay season, the humility, temperature and the clay density should interferer the decision of string tension. As for Roger, he will try different tension combinations onto his rackets when he arrived the site to find the best string job for his games in particular tournament. So, sorry! No answer for you this time but I give you a tip that he should require to pre-sketch the natural gut.Equijet,
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge! I never thought all the speculation about RF's racket ever would end, but thank you for putting an end to that
I've got the standard european K6.1 and I never thought it was *that* close to the real thing. (I just play for fun...)
So if I do buy the "Wilson Champion's Choice Hybrid 16 String" (http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageACWILSON-WCC16.html) and decide to try it "once" it'll be as close as the real thing (without having the real one) lol? What to do I tell the stringer to put where? If I just want to copy RF's frame? How about tension when playing on clay? A little softer than 55?
Ah, thanks for the reply though. I don't know why I was expecting a straight-forward answer lol. I think i'll go for something like 25-26 kg.
In any event do I just put the Luxilon ALU Power Rough on the mains and the Wilson Natural Gut on the crosses? Or does that depend as well?
Thanks
In any event do I just put the Luxilon ALU Power Rough on the mains and the Wilson Natural Gut on the crosses? Or does that depend as well?
Thanks
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Federer puts the natural gut in the mains and the Luxilon ALU Power Rough in the crosses. I understand he usually strings in the mid-to-high 40's lbs. tension range with the crosses at least 2 lbs. looser than the mains.Ah, thanks for the reply though. I don't know why I was expecting a straight-forward answer lol. I think i'll go for something like 25-26 kg.
In any event do I just put the Luxilon ALU Power Rough on the mains and the Wilson Natural Gut on the crosses? Or does that depend as well?
Thanks
BreakPoint,
Wow that's pretty "loose"? I think mine is strung at 25 kg (55 lbs) and my strings touching each other after a while, especially the mains... (i've got some Wilson Sensation I think).
If I try something like 45 lbs for clay I think it'll be fine. Gut in the mains and Luxilon in the crosses, gotcha' - I wonder how different it'll be compared to the Wilson Sensation lol. On my K6.1 the recommend tension is written as being 50-60 lbs, so it won't matter if I go for 45 lbs (20.4 kg) right?
Btw I noticed Equijet wrote that the balance on the rackets he had was 9 point something? On my K6.1 there's written "12 PTS HL" is that different?
Wow that's pretty "loose"? I think mine is strung at 25 kg (55 lbs) and my strings touching each other after a while, especially the mains... (i've got some Wilson Sensation I think).
If I try something like 45 lbs for clay I think it'll be fine. Gut in the mains and Luxilon in the crosses, gotcha' - I wonder how different it'll be compared to the Wilson Sensation lol. On my K6.1 the recommend tension is written as being 50-60 lbs, so it won't matter if I go for 45 lbs (20.4 kg) right?
Btw I noticed Equijet wrote that the balance on the rackets he had was 9 point something? On my K6.1 there's written "12 PTS HL" is that different?
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Yes, 45 lbs. is loose but remember that Federer changes racquets every 9 games (i.e., many times in a single match) so tension loss is not an issue. For people who don't restring for several months, you should string it tighter. No, stringing it lower than the recommended tension won't cause any problems for your frame.
The retail K90 is 12 pts. HL unstrung so about 9 pts HL strung. Federer adds lead tape under the bumper of his frame to make it 9 pts. HL unstrung so his is around 6 pts. HL strung.
Very Great Player, Thanks for your tip to preserve those rackets in pristine condition.Yes, Wilson leather grip will leach out the dyes severely, it's no good. Would someone contact Wilson to complain about this issue? Fairway Balmforth and Babolat are always the best quality in leather grip sector. To me, I won't use those rackets for my games, not because they have remarkable collectibility value but they are not suitable for my playing style. In my circle, no one will care whatever rackets are you using. Also, it might be weird when you are playing with those significant Roger's personal rackets but don't play as good as he does. I realized that it would be something to you guys when such rackets shows up in the clubs. It's liked you grabs hand of Charlize Theron in deep V skirt with high heels and walk into MacDonald at lunch time. I also believe with you that Roger should break the grand slam record soon.... As you seems are very good in e-auction business, would you estimate and advise the market value of those Charlize Theron kind of rackets? How about the one is autographed?
Racquet Man
Rookie
Equijet, you seem to know too much about Federer's stick to be an casual racquet junkie. Are you Frank Messerer of FBS Sports who customized Federer's racquets before P1 Tennis? Sorry for asking, inquiring minds want to know?
tennisfreak15347
Banned
dogs do tricks for bones, men do tricks for grilling secrets, and tennis players do anything for fed's racquets, .
.Good detective! It's actually 355g STRUNG weight and 9 points head light. Sorry, I mixed up the weight when it is UNSTRUNG.
Breakpoint, I think he is saying the stock US K90 IS Fed's racket. Equijet said that the PJ Fed rackets back then had lead weights in the head and paddle to achieve that particular weight and balance (355 strung and 9 pts HL). Man, that was tough to decipher.
Blank
Rookie
Why didn't you think I'm Miroslava Vavrinec? Hahaha...!
because then she won't be talking about the racket parts only.....:grin:
jorel,
Actually 25% of the people on the board are pros interested in finding out what Federer "really" plays with :twisted:
BP,
On Roger Federer's official website he stated the following:
Did he say this to keep the values within the recommendations set by Wilson or?
Actually 25% of the people on the board are pros interested in finding out what Federer "really" plays with :twisted:
BP,
On Roger Federer's official website he stated the following:
Did he say this to keep the values within the recommendations set by Wilson or?
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Why didn't you think I'm Miroslava Vavrinec? Hahaha...!
Stan the Man Rocks!!! Love your 1hbh too!
jorel
Hall of Fame
and tennis guy is Roger Federer?
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
That was posted on Federer's website several years ago. Recent stringing logs show him to be stringing in the mid-to-high 40's lbs. So he has probably lowered his tension over the past few years.
leonidas1982
Hall of Fame
Equijet,
Much thanks for the information, it confirms previous speculations and sheds light on new ones. Would you by chance have any information on the proposed new Pete Sampras Prototype.
Thanks.
Much thanks for the information, it confirms previous speculations and sheds light on new ones. Would you by chance have any information on the proposed new Pete Sampras Prototype.
Thanks.
Equijet,
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge! I never thought all the speculation about RF's racket ever would end, but thank you for putting an end to that
I've got the standard european K6.1 and I never thought it was *that* close to the real thing. (I just play for fun...)
So if I do buy the "Wilson Champion's Choice Hybrid 16 String" (http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageACWILSON-WCC16.html) and decide to try it "once" it'll be as close as the real thing (without having the real one) lol? What to do I tell the stringer to put where? If I just want to copy RF's frame? How about tension when playing on clay? A little softer than 55?
I give you one more tip on the string job for your brand new Roger Federer replica racket what I don't recommend to use the expensive string (natural gut, etc...) for the maiden string job, unless you don't care about the waist or you just decide to string that racket for decoration purpose. Because any brand new rackets needs to be pre-tensioned at the maiden string job to stable the string tension for the future. The first ever string will loose the tension rapidly due to the copolymer polypropylene bumper guard, grommet strips and the graphite have to be tensioned. It's same theory of pre-sketch the string. It's also liked the brand new car should be run-in prior to get the ultimate mechanical condition. The pro players only use the brand new rackets for the practices, not directly for playing in the matches. So, I suggest you to use the string and tension what you are familiar with for the brand new racket string job to get the preference for the future string job specification. Cheers!
aleexxxxx
Rookie
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Wilson reps don't get a whole bunch of Federer's personal paintjobbed racquets.
I suspect Equijet used to string racquets for Federer or is a personal friend, hitting partner, trainer, acquaintance or relative of Roger's.
BP,
thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't trying to challenge your statement, I was just curious about how or why he'd say one thing and "do" another
Equijet,
actually i've been playing with my K6.1 for almost 1 year with the same Wilson Sensation strings, and i've read that they "die" after a while, so i'm suspecting that i've overused them... (the strings are VERY loose now, so they keep touching each other if I hit very hard...)
Thanks for the tips, I most certainly didn't know rackets had a break-in period like engines etc. lol
thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't trying to challenge your statement, I was just curious about how or why he'd say one thing and "do" another
Equijet,
actually i've been playing with my K6.1 for almost 1 year with the same Wilson Sensation strings, and i've read that they "die" after a while, so i'm suspecting that i've overused them... (the strings are VERY loose now, so they keep touching each other if I hit very hard...)
Thanks for the tips, I most certainly didn't know rackets had a break-in period like engines etc. lol
