She would have if she could have. She was lucky to win that last FO due to Hingis having an epic meltdown
Roger Federer: Serena Williams may well be best overall tennis player ever
- Thread starter Thriller
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She would have if she could have. She was lucky to win that last FO due to Hingis having an epic meltdown
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Agreed. Deep with lots of talent, like Serena's 2017 AO win over Mirjana Lucic and 98-year old Venus.
Nope like Hingis, Sharapova, Azarenka, Venus Williams, Henin, Li Na, Davenport (all of them all time great players), and so many more dangerous players she faced day in and day out... and all of the newer players like Kerber, Pliskova, etc..
Graf faced an aging Evert and Navratilova and then had difficulty with a young Monica Seles who was taken out by a Graf fan. Without the stabbing of Seles, you can subtract at least 5-6 slams from Graf's count.
Evert, Graf, Navratilova, etc...themselves admit that women's tennis has more depth today than anything they ever faced. But I guess you know more than the players themselves.
Everyone knows that Serena is the GOAT and something incredibly special.
No need to be all butt hurt about it. Face facts. Get it together. You'll be okay.
I don't recall any finals Serena won against a player with a meltdown of that sort. Leaving court...crying...being consoled by mom ...losing match after leading a set an a break?
I don't think that's ever happened before or since.
justasport
Professional
Very intelligent answer from Roger.
yokied
Hall of Fame
My own views and and the truth aside, which I think many ITT are right about, Roger is being asked about a fellow Nike athlete. He is always going to be diplomatic, but especially about another Nike athlete and especially about a Williams who are notorious whiners.
I'd love to know whether Nike makes more money from Fed's or Williams' deals. I'm sure Fed sells a lot of racquets for Wilson but would he sell more Nike gear to men than Williams would sell to women? Women love their active wear and shoes?!?
I'd love to know whether Nike makes more money from Fed's or Williams' deals. I'm sure Fed sells a lot of racquets for Wilson but would he sell more Nike gear to men than Williams would sell to women? Women love their active wear and shoes?!?
No, but she would play him close, hold serve a few times and other nonsense we have heard.
Did you see her acing djokovic? Or read the comments after?
Serena can be beaten by a tall advanced 16 year old junior boy from one of those academies like Nick.
We are just having fun here.
In polite society, one never talks about the shortcomings of others based on gender, but actually overcompensates for it in the other direction. That is what Federer is doing.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Contender for most unimportant thread of all time.
Bill W
Rookie
It really is fascinating to think that anyone believes that Serena would stand a chance against any top male player. Sure, she might squeak a few serves by, grab a point here and there off mistakes, or maybe luck into a game or 2, but the reaction time and quick response muscles just aren't there for women when compared to men. Have they come a long way? Hell yeah. But to think she could take a set off Fed, Rafa, or Murray, etc is nonsense. But it's fun to speculate.
ausfrewimuso
Semi-Pro
Seles was better than Graf.
Soianka said it well:
Serena on a good day>Graf on a good day
Game, set, match, WILLIAMS.
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FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
hugobosstachini
Professional
Weakest argumentation ever and one of many fallacies in just one phrase. It's like saying 'God exists', someone says 'No' and you reply prove it when you have not proven or cannot prove your initial claim on a subject that cannot be proven in general.Conflict of interest.
How do you get to decide what is a PR stunt or not? Easy, just give me an alternate explanation.
If you say this is PR, prove it. Somebody's lack of argument on something that cannot be proven by either party does not establish that you are right or wrong.
But the fact of the matter is like 80% of this forum, no one can ever prove their claims with facts other than more alternative facts and 'the world is flat' like theories.
On the subject at hand, there's a clear comprehension by Federer of the fact that Williams has had to overcome a lot of social including racial hurdles to establish herself. In the context of what is happening against black people in the US and also around the world, Williams' story is a special one.
Whether that argument is valid to establish her as the overall goat is a person's choice. However, this does not erase the fact that the starting point for Williams from an historical perspective as a black person trying to become relevant in a sport dominated by white upper/upper middle class, due to the high level of expenses to play the game that cannot be afforded in certain areas of the world, to be false.
ausfrewimuso
Semi-Pro
Yep sorry, don't get too upset now.
Northern
Hall of Fame
Give me a break, Aristotle. This has nothing to do with "proving" anything. When I used the word "decide" I clearly implied this is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, this is a clear PR stunt. What does social strife have to do with tennis-playing ability? This is clearly a PR stunt, and one designed to maximize Fed's profits, as anything else you will see coming out of Kamp Federer. You can expect similar things from all the other top players, BTW, so this is not something to distinguish Federer with. Sometimes I question the effectivity of Djokovic's PR though.
Regarding the "social strife" part of your post, I can guarantee you that Ashe had it much worse (you can add to his credentials that he probably suffered discrimination due to his homosexuality as well.) Pancho Gonzales suffered discrimination on a larger scale probably. While racial and sexist discrimination is regrettable, that has nothing to do with tennis greatness.
D
Deleted member 3771
Guest
The records of the men and women can't really be compared not because of gender but mainly because winning slams in bo5 format is a whole different animal.
C
Chadillac
Guest
[QUOTE="ausfrewimuso, post: 12310071, member: 752978"
Serena on a good day>Graf on a good day
Game, set, match, WILLIAMS.[/QUOTE]
Serena has never lost a match on a good day...
But honestly graf would beat her most of the time. Im not sure if you play tennisl, but serena has major weakness against deep low shots, she hits them off the back foot rolling them, making her next shot land on the T.
This is also why mac would beat her badly, would be even worse.
She basically hung around to win her titles. Look how many she won after 2010 when all these 2 year legends retired.
Azarenka, sharapova, woz, safarove, mug, kerber arent all time greats...
Sharapova actually won the 2014 french because serena was on peds she got a TUE for 10 days after winning the final LOL
Serena on a good day>Graf on a good day
Game, set, match, WILLIAMS.[/QUOTE]
Serena has never lost a match on a good day...
But honestly graf would beat her most of the time. Im not sure if you play tennisl, but serena has major weakness against deep low shots, she hits them off the back foot rolling them, making her next shot land on the T.
This is also why mac would beat her badly, would be even worse.
She basically hung around to win her titles. Look how many she won after 2010 when all these 2 year legends retired.
Azarenka, sharapova, woz, safarove, mug, kerber arent all time greats...
Sharapova actually won the 2014 french because serena was on peds she got a TUE for 10 days after winning the final LOL
Erm, that's not the main reason. The main reason is because women's tennis is separate and inferior. But if people really want to even stupidly debate this, then just throw Esther Vergeer their way and call it a day. She's the greatest tennis player ever by far. The end.
D
Deleted member 3771
Guest
Disagree.It is definitely one of the main reasons.
If they changed the men's slams to bo3 format, and then if someone like Shapovalov or Zverev ended their career with as many slams as Lendl or a couple more I don't think anyone would be saying that they were as great or greater due to the bo3 format v bo5 format.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Being the best in the world in a sport that only a few hundred play worldwide is not as prestigious as being the best in a sport played by millions. That is the only reason Ester Vergeer is disqualified from tbe GOAT conversation but she is disqualified. Get back to us when the draw is 128 for a slam and the world rankings go down to the thousands.
Secondly you are confusing greatness with best. No one thinks Serena would beat Roger Federer. Plenty, including Roger, think that she had had a greater career and achieved more in singles, doubles, mixed doubles and Olympics than the Swiss, and therefore is one of the greatest if not the greatest tennis players of all time.
I'm with Roger on this one.
ausfrewimuso
Semi-Pro
Yes of course she has a weakness, every player does, but how many points does she win from her serve alone? As well as her very aggressive return of serve?
She was not as agile as Graf but her baseline play makes up for it.
It would have been interesting to see both of them play each other on a good day
You unwittingly just argued my point for me.
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
This.
I mean, my God, I don't know what this bro is talking about.
If you think Serena is better than Graf, then you basically think there is a ton of value in hanging around to play forever into a weak era.
Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal aren't great for what they're doing now -- in fact their 2017/2018 aren't moving the needle much for me in terms of overall greatness.
Look at the major champions in the women's game from 2012 onward: Azarenka is decent, Sharapova winning RG twice is laughable and Graf was a much, much better clay player than her, Li Na was mediocre, Bartoli and Kerber wouldn't have won anything against Graf, nor world Ostapenko, Pennetta, or Wozniacki. Kvitova can be tough on Grass and I will concede that Muguruza can be a tough player when she's in the zone. That's the group, plus Serena.
If one wants to crown Serena as the best ever for vulturing some titles at age 34 over that group, then I'm never going to convince that person otherwise. Keep in mind that Serena has played 3 more years worth of majors than Graf. If you count back 12 majors worth, Serena gives back 6 (which were won at the ripe old ages of 33-35 mind you). But for God's sake, look at some of the draws from her later titles. The 2017 AO she beat Mirjana Lucic and an ancient Venus to win. At the 2016 Wimbledon she beat
Pavlyuchenkova, an unseeded Vesnina, and Kerber who has done literally nothing outside of that season -- hasn't even won a Premier tournament. You're hanging your hat on this as evidence for Serena being the best ever?
The other point regarding Seles is that we have no idea how she would have done over time had she not gotten stabbed. We do know that she came back in 95 fully healed and outside of an AO win in 96 (when Graf didn't play) she didn't do much against Graf.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
ausfrewimuso
Semi-Pro
Lol someone seems to be forgetting the nobodies Graf was playing in earlier rounds of nearly every tournament
, she also never played Navratilova and Evert at their peaks, just like you'd say Serena didn't play Graf at her peak.But keep acting like Graf would have a 17:0 record against Serena if they played their best each time
. Have you ever even seen Serena play her best? And Steffi was just 30
, no excuses seeming as it's simple to win tournaments at 34.
C
Chadillac
Guest
And Steffi was just 30
Peds work wonders. Ever wonder why serena and martina navratalova both played into their late 30's while others retire at 30 (steffi retired 4months after that match)?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Sharapova won the 2014 French according to everyone. She beat Halep in the final but you seem to not know that. You are on your way to ruining another thread with this unsubstantiated ped talk. Jesus Christ...
C
Chadillac
Guest
Fancy bears and the doctors who signed the documents disagree. Either way use the ignore button and best of luck
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Sharapova won RG 2014 and Serena lost in the 2nd round to Muguruza. Serena didn't get a TUE in 2013 when she beat Sharapova in the final as far as I know so what you are posting is not true. You got another thread deleted by posting this so I guess just add this one to the list.
ausfrewimuso
Semi-Pro
Peds, peds, peds, peds, there's always something when it's about Serena
"I have done everything I wanted to do in tennis. I feel I have nothing left to accomplish. The weeks following Wimbledon [in 1999] weren't easy for me. I was not having fun anymore. After Wimbledon, for the first time in my career, I didn't feel like going to a tournament. My motivation wasn't what it was in the past."
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On a good day Serena can obliterate whatever she sees on the other side of the net if she feels like it with her serve alone
No one can predict who would have been better anyway, but Serena is not just some random old player
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