Roger's Forehand • Three Frame Analysis

[randzman]

Roger's Forehand and Backhand (thread title can't be edited).

Recently I figured out you're actually not supposed to turn your upper torso with the racket but instead plant your leading foot, in-effect turning your body into a wall, and your arm comes across while the body is stationary (as much as possible depending on your angle relative to the net, and of course if you're in motion).

In other words, you want to ideally hit like a flamingo - all weight on the front half of your leading foot BEFORE you make contact so you foot is stationary through the shot. (Same for golf ... watch Rory McIlroy in slow motion, amazing.)

Here's three frames from a video showing that.

Same for the serve if you're not jumping.

 

[Bender]

Recently I figured out you're actually not supposed to turn your upper torso with the racket but instead plant your leading foot, in-effect turning your body into a wall, and your arm comes across while the body is stationary (as much as possible depending on your angle relative to the net, and of course if you're in motion).

In other words, you want to ideally hit like a flamingo - all weight on the front half of your leading foot BEFORE you make contact so you foot is stationary through the shot. (Same for golf ... watch Rory McIlroy in slow motion, amazing.)

Here's three frames from a video showing that.

Same for the serve if you're not jumping.

Not a good idea to use warmup strokes for analysis. Also that’s a forehand not a backhand so it’s a bit difficult to see your point.

You’re right nonetheless that there is a large arm component in Fed’s backhand, but the weight isn’t always on his right foot throughout the shot. If it were then there’d be no weight transfer at all.

 

[randzman]

Not a good idea to use warmup strokes for analysis. Also that’s a forehand not a backhand so it’s a bit difficult to see your point. You’re right nonetheless that there is a large arm component in Fed’s backhand, but the weight isn’t always on his right foot throughout the shot. If it were then there’d be no weight transfer at all.

I'll correct the image.

I am ok using warmup strokes for analysis.

Yes, his weight is on his right foot through a BACKhand (and on the left foot of the FOREhand) *once it's loaded*.

I thought it self-apparent that I didn't mean his foot is planted from the time he begins to load.

If you watch the video he uses the opponent's stroke as a trigger to get his heels off the ground.

From there, he, anyone, of course, turns the body so that one can step into the ball which is the weight transfer.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pay close attention to all his comments about the more linear 'step forward' forehand with 'weight transfer' and the more modern circular forehand. Then look carefully at the videos especially the excellent use of the linear forehand over the circular forehand.

Legs turn hips/pelvis to align but twisting between hips and shoulder is significant. (probably not on the one hand backhand slice.)
Notice how Djokovic sets his feet then hips, shoulders turn back with a line between the shoulders going back farther than a line between the hips = "separation". There is significant trunk twisting and muscle stretching from it. (Careful with your back.)

Maybe you should start this thread over due to the title being wrong? You can't edit titles.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I feel very mislead by this thread title. There is no backhand, no and frames shown.

 

[atp2015]

I feel very mislead by this thread title. .

really?

 

[atp2015]

Maybe you should start this thread over due to the title being wrong?

Not necessary.

 

[randzman]

I feel very mislead by this thread title. There is no backhand, no and frames shown.

My apologies.
It was indeed my intention to create a misleading thread and post an image I made which was NOT the backhand!
I confess to bait and switch and I hope you're able to get a refund.

 

[Curiosity]

My apologies.
It was indeed my intention to create a misleading thread and post an image I made which was NOT the backhand!
I confess to bait and switch and I hope you're able to get a refund.

That reminds me of my 8th grade math teacher. He'd make a mistake on the black-board. We'd catch it. He'd then say (classic) "I was just trying to see if you were paying attention." So we conspired not to correct him the next day. The error went uncorrected. He was oblivious.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Roger's Forehand and Backhand (thread title can't be edited).

Recently I figured out you're actually not supposed to turn your upper torso with the racket but instead plant your leading foot, in-effect turning your body into a wall, and your arm comes across while the body is stationary (as much as possible depending on your angle relative to the net, and of course if you're in motion).

In other words, you want to ideally hit like a flamingo - all weight on the front half of your leading foot BEFORE you make contact so you foot is stationary through the shot. (Same for golf ... watch Rory McIlroy in slow motion, amazing.)

Here's three frames from a video showing that.

Same for the serve if you're not jumping.

Uppermost body turn is significant before impact, those pictures are after impact in the follow through. Some players jump off the ground in the more current circular forehands.

 

[Fintft]

Pay close attention to all his comments about the more linear 'step forward' forehand with 'weight transfer' and the more modern circular forehand. Then look carefully at the videos especially the excellent use of the linear forehand over the circular forehand.

Legs turn hips/pelvis to align but twisting between hips and shoulder is significant. (probably not on the one hand backhand slice.)
Notice how Djokovic sets his feet then hips, shoulders turn back with a line between the shoulders going back farther than a line between the hips = "separation". There is significant trunk twisting and muscle stretching from it. (Careful with your back.)

Maybe you should start this thread over due to the title being wrong? You can't edit titles.

What FH do you use? Linear (traditional/closed stance) or angular (modern/open stance) FH?

Personally, I prefer the first, for power generation and less strenuous on the legs overall, how about you?

 

[Curiosity]

What FH do you use? Linear (traditional/closed stance) or angular (modern/open stance) FH?

Personally, I prefer the first, for power generation and less strenuous on the legs overall, how about you?

Appropos the OP's post in general: If seeing (matches) is believing, essentially no one steps into their hit, or shifts weight forwards.

Pasted below from "The ITF Coaches Education Programme Coaching High-Performance Players Course: The Forehand

Forehand Preparation
80% Open stance
20% Semi Open
88% of players DO NOT step into the ball
» 6% Step In
» 6% Step Back
No difference between male and female
220 Male and 130 Female Top Players: 4 Clay Court Tournaments

 

[randzman]

Appropos the OP's post in general: If seeing (matches) is believing, essentially no one steps into their hit, or shifts weight forwards.

Ok, how does this land ... it doesn't matter how you swing, what matters is that there is balance when swinging.

You can be closed, open, jump, run whatever you like ... all kinds of way to contort.

https://www.addvantageuspta.com/def...up/ADD-depts/NewsLetterID/332/startrow/50.htm


Balance critical to better tennis
by Jack Groppel, Ph.D.

Without balance, there is very little
“game” that a player can create.
February 2003 -- Question: I have read so much about movement and how important it is to playing tennis effectively, but every time someone mentions balance, it is not discussed in depth. Would you please discuss the issue of balance as it relates to playing better tennis?
Answer: In one word, balance is critical. Without balance, there is very little “game” that a player can create. Yes, you can hit shots “off-balance,” but you don’t want your game to depend on off-balance mechanics.

 

[Curiosity]

Ok, how does this land ... it doesn't matter how you swing, what matters is that there is balance when swinging.

You can be closed, open, jump, run whatever you like ... all kinds of way to contort.

https://www.addvantageuspta.com/def...up/ADD-depts/NewsLetterID/332/startrow/50.htm


Balance critical to better tennis
by Jack Groppel, Ph.D.

Without balance, there is very little
“game” that a player can create.
February 2003 -- Question: I have read so much about movement and how important it is to playing tennis effectively, but every time someone mentions balance, it is not discussed in depth. Would you please discuss the issue of balance as it relates to playing better tennis?
Answer: In one word, balance is critical. Without balance, there is very little “game” that a player can create. Yes, you can hit shots “off-balance,” but you don’t want your game to depend on off-balance mechanics.

I was commenting on your post #3, "From there, he, anyone, of course, turns the body so that one can step into the ball which is the weight transfer."
Everyone knows that staying in balance is key. In fact, it is something Fed is famous for, and that is remarked upon.

 

[ubercat]

I'm always a bit sceptical of the step in. Most of the shots I get in rallies have or angle or both. Or they r nasty slices Not much time to step in.

 

[Fintft]

Appropos the OP's post in general: If seeing (matches) is believing, essentially no one steps into their hit, or shifts weight forwards.

Pasted below from "The ITF Coaches Education Programme Coaching High-Performance Players Course: The Forehand

Forehand Preparation
80% Open stance
20% Semi Open
88% of players DO NOT step into the ball
» 6% Step In
» 6% Step Back
No difference between male and female
220 Male and 130 Female Top Players: 4 Clay Court Tournaments

Yeah and it produces the Nadal and Djokovic type of tennis; call me simple but I prefer the old school, aesthetically.

 

[Steve Williams]

I looked at that ‘I’m on your side’ vid in which the coach says the new forehand technique takes pressure off the player’s left knee. However, the player’s landing after his leap in the air seems to put a twist of the left knee right back in there again.

 

[pencilcheck]

I don't understand the point of this thread. What are we supposed to say here? You are right or wrong? I don't really care.

 

[randzman]

I don't understand the point of this thread. What are we supposed to say here? You are right or wrong? I don't really care.

I don't understand the point of your reply. What are you trying to say here? You are right or wrong? I don't really care.

I looked at that ‘I’m on your side’ vid in which the coach says the new forehand technique takes pressure off the player’s left knee. However, the player’s landing after his leap in the air seems to put a twist of the left knee right back in there again.

Yea ... the gravity part of 'center of gravity' is a bit hard to avoid.
Whatever your path energy's gonna be conserved.
You can land quickly with more force or be stationary longer with less strain.
(I'll take whichever has the lower change over time. I'd rather carry 50 lbs for 50 yards than jump off a step with 50 on my back.)

 

[Rubens]

First there was the open serve guy. Then came the pomo. And then there was the two-handed twit. And now we have flamingo tennis.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I looked at that ‘I’m on your side’ vid in which the coach says the new forehand technique takes pressure off the player’s left knee. However, the player’s landing after his leap in the air seems to put a twist of the left knee right back in there again.

Plus looks like he will end up with bad right knee, such a deep drop, hurts looking at it with all that weight on it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

What FH do you use? Linear (traditional/closed stance) or angular (modern/open stance) FH?

Personally, I prefer the first, for power generation and less strenuous on the legs overall, how about you?

I had the old idea to step forward with 'weight transfer' but did not have enough uppermost body turn - acceleration of the mass of the uppermost body to accelerate the shoulder mass. Shoulder joint motion later is a different thing. Notice that the player in the Dan Brown video has very similar uppermost body turn for both the linear and circular techniques as Dan Brown says. I believe that he is using his trunk muscles for both upper most body rotations.

About three years ago, I learned more shoulder turn back and then forward - with separation. Separation involves stretching trunk muscles between the pelvis and uppermost body as seen by a line between the two shoulders. That body twisting gave my forehand a big boost. I had observed Dkokovic on TV for quite some time and his separation back and forth when he wants to hit with pace seemed very clear. I believe trunk twist & separation part of the new forehand technique was different enough from my earlier forehand technique that I picked it up very quickly. Speculating, there was little muscle memory to reprogram.

Careful with your back on separation and don't twist as much as Djokovic.

I was still unclear on the foot work and linear vs circular motions until after I began studying the Dan Brown video for its details.

The posted Djokovic forehand video is my current model. I want the circular motion and it feels good. I use my version of it for set ups in my doubles and with the ball machine. I recently noticed that the feet are placed at about 45 d. to the trajectory for some pro players. See Djokovic forehand. Speculating, that angle might be good so that the pelvis turn and trunk twist angles work well. ?

"...less strenuous on the legs overall,..." ? Dan Brown mentioned that they were working on changing the 4.5 player's forehand technique because the player had a knee injury. If you look at his front knee, when his uppermost body rotates with the linear technique, you will see how that stresses his knee for the linear technique, the body is turning and the foot is planted. You can also see how the circular technique is less stressful to the knee because his foot is less planted. His foot even leaves the ground, I believe, as the feet of ATP players often do. See Nishikori.

I believe that the linear and circular techniques can both produce strong uppermost body turn. When the legs turn the pelvis it stretcch trunk muscles and can accelerate the shoulder mass. The 4.5 player shows how rapidly the shoulder mass can be accelerated with either technique.

Pick a 2019 model forehand.............

 

[Fintft]

"...less strenuous on the legs overall,..." ? Dan Brown mentioned that they were working on changing the 4.5 player's forehand technique because the player had a knee injury. If you look at his front knee, when his uppermost body rotates with the linear technique, you will see how that stresses his knee for the linear technique, the body is turning and the foot is planted. You can also see how the circular technique is less stressful to the knee because his foot is less planted. His foot even leaves the ground, I believe, as the feet of ATP players often do. See Nishikori.
.

Quickly about your knee stress: won't you say that while the linear technique stresses the left knee, the circular one stresses the right knee?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Quickly about your knee stress: won't you say that while the linear technique stresses the left knee, the circular one stresses the right knee?

I can't say that the right knee is stressed and have seen no evidence. Use of the right knee and speed alone does not equal unusual stress. Strokes all have joint use and high speed. Proof? - we are not dealing with proof here.

On the other hand, the patella and underlying cartilage is a weak point and especially older players may have some knee pathology already going on. That is a location of early knee arthritis..??????

For the linear forehand Dan Brown said that the player's left knee was stressed and I see in my opinion that it looks stressed because the foot is on the ground and the body is turning - the knee joint has very little rotation. That type of stress is gone in the circular forehand. I have two pieces of evidence, what Brown says and what I see in videos. Brown also says that the circular technique gives more top spin - a goal that he stated in the beginning. Jumping off the ground would be a result of having more acceleration in the upward direction of racket velocity for top spin and also accelerating pelvic rotation.

Also, the biomechanics of 'step forward with weight control' is never described. What is 'step forward with weight transfer' doing? Does a few miles per hour speed in the forward step make a difference? What is weight transfer and its effect on the tennis ball? Tennis is full of these blind alley terms. They indicate that the biomechanics is not understood. Forward acceleration or accelerations in any direction can be used to stretch muscles and that is seen in many tennis strokes. If step forward means accelerate in the forward direction and stretch muscles for later use in the stroke, why hide that in tennis code - "step forward and transfer your weight".

Brown's video was clearly expressed, why he was doing it was said and he used video to show exactly what he meant. Never forget that motion blur also was not hiding the tennis stroke.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Appropos the OP's post in general: If seeing (matches) is believing, essentially no one steps into their hit, or shifts weight forwards.

Pasted below from "The ITF Coaches Education Programme Coaching High-Performance Players Course: The Forehand

Forehand Preparation
80% Open stance
20% Semi Open
88% of players DO NOT step into the ball
» 6% Step In
» 6% Step Back
No difference between male and female
220 Male and 130 Female Top Players: 4 Clay Court Tournaments

Great stats, thanks!

 

[ubercat]

I don't get what the thing is. if you hit with a semi open stance and end with all the weight in your left leg just the toes of the right leg would be touching the ground.