Roland Garros 2024 F: [4] Alexander Zverev vs. [3] Carlos Alcaraz
- Thread starter dapchai
- Start date
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Hall of Fame
Like last time they met on hard? And why didn't Sinner win Wimbledon then? Take a deep breath, man. You're obsessed.
top10
Semi-Pro
Alcatraz has more winners partially because he is such a good mover/defender that it is harder to score winners against him
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
That is what Zverev is. Revisionist history will not change that.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
And even if some people on TT bemoan less surface disparity and overall slowing of court conditions compared to previous eras, grass definitely immediately looks faster and slicker. Just very different.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Terenigma
G.O.A.T.
@Terenigma, and you were saying Zverev would not let this go 5
I went out to watch the remainder of the match so couldn't reply to this earlia but I was right that Zverev couldn't let this go to 5 or he would lose! Alcaraz is too good over 5 sets lol
welcome2petrkordaland
Professional
Gotta love DolphZverev coming out to the match today
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Loved everything about the match except the fourth set. I think the fourth set could rank as one of the worst sets I have ever seen in a major final. Complete mental capitulation from Zverev right from the first game despite having all the momentum from winning the comeback third set.
The guy has some of the darkest mental demons possible and that father of his with the low energy and negative body language multiplies things even worse.
The guy has some of the darkest mental demons possible and that father of his with the low energy and negative body language multiplies things even worse.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
I like how you analyzed the match today. I fully agree. He will never win a major title. If he really wanted to, he should’ve shown more in the fourth set and took advantage of the timeout Alcaraz did in that fourth set. Lengthen the rallies
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I see - now, it is his father’s fault he got outplayed by Carlos?? He lost in five sets to the clear tournament and match favorite. Cut both father and son a break.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think you’re off to the races a bit there. Not sure I agree at all. The capitulation is definitely Zverev’s fault. With that said, his father is not helping someone as mentally weak as Zverev. My thought is it probably compounds the negativity.
And yes, there are key moments where the momentum shift was created by Alcaraz just being a far better tennis player. The curling Nadal-style banana forehand to seal a key break was classic.
Sinner and Alcaraz are so much better than anyone else in the world at the moment it is laughable. Just amazing the level they are raising the game to at the moment, even if some people still needed convincing
jss
Semi-Pro
I rooted for Alcaraz, but I feel sorry for Zverev. He has everything needed to have won the match.
Specially 4th set was weird, after well earned 3rd set, it looked as if he gave up.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
All those people in the match thread moaning that Carlos is "so bad he's just moonballing" desperately need to listen to Roddick's podcast. He explains the strategy to perfection above and why Carlos did it. Thanks for posting that.
T
TheSlicer
Guest
Hawk eye has a Margin of error of 9 mm, the referee Saw that ball in, It could have been perfectly in, so no
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Zverev is a washout hack up to this point in his long, underwhelming career, as evidenced by his utter lack of ability to win yesterday.
"Good man". BS. He is a violent offender who would best serve society behind bars, where any who share his most known trait belong.
flyingboris
Legend
I’m reading more like 3mm these days, but still, neither hawkeye or the referee have this down to zero error, so there’s no right answer. It does seem like it was too close to the line for an outright overrule from the chair though, and definitely bad luck for this to happen on break back point in the final set.
flyingboris
Legend
I would love to be able to watch tennis like Roddick. He’s seeing so many interesting things that he gets excited about. Awesome.
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
Couldn't watch live... and glad I didn't. The 10 second fast-forward button comes in handy with certain players/matches.
Sort of like the first semifinal, this was a 5 setter, but not that exciting or dramatic to watch. We've already seen Zvereve choke away a 5 set slam final, and who wants to see a replay of that? More detail below...
The match was absolutely there for the taking for Zverev, but as you said he has too many mental issues to take advantage in a big match. If this was any other round in the tournament, even the semis, and Alcaraz played like that, Zverev would probably have won (look at the Rune match for example). But it was a final and his brain exploded.
Also agree that his father looks like a terrible presence in his box. All sorts of terrible body language, and I can only imagine what he is saying. Right up there with some of the big disaster dads we have seen recently, like Guff's dad and Giorgi's dad in the WTA.
I know you are coming at this from the POV of a Sinner fan, and I would probably say the same thing about myself. Watching this match, it seems like a lost opportunity for Sinner. If Jannik could just change his mental approach slightly when playing Alcaraz, he could really dominate their matchup. Sinner is better when both guys are playing freely, but as we have seen, that is rarely the case.
Sinner's head/pressure issues don't seem to result in the same peaks as valleys that we saw with Alcaraz and Zverev, but they can certainly make him play very tight. Just look at that AO final, where he was basically frozen for the first two sets. I think that was partially caused by being the heavy favorite, and everyone saying Medvedev would be a zombie after having played for so long, so Jannik only needed to show up and collect the trophy, but the point is he still felt the pressure of the moment.
All that said, I think both Sinner and Alcaraz will fell less and less pressure as they mature and advance in their careers, making more room for spectacular tennis from both players. And the good news, in my eyes, is that I think Sinner has the edge when they are both playing normally (as mentioned above).
Anyway, I thought the margin of error was less than 9mm (but maybe that is for other surfaces), and I don't understand why we didn't see a close up of the actual mark. That was definitely the turning point of the match, and it was a double benefit for Carlos: the ball was called in, and it blew up Zverev's brain for the remaining 2 break point chances.
Sort of like the first semifinal, this was a 5 setter, but not that exciting or dramatic to watch. We've already seen Zvereve choke away a 5 set slam final, and who wants to see a replay of that? More detail below...
Who would have thought that Alcaraz would morph into 5th set US Open final Dominic Thiem in the 4th set of this match?
The match was absolutely there for the taking for Zverev, but as you said he has too many mental issues to take advantage in a big match. If this was any other round in the tournament, even the semis, and Alcaraz played like that, Zverev would probably have won (look at the Rune match for example). But it was a final and his brain exploded.
Also agree that his father looks like a terrible presence in his box. All sorts of terrible body language, and I can only imagine what he is saying. Right up there with some of the big disaster dads we have seen recently, like Guff's dad and Giorgi's dad in the WTA.
Yep, he had a huge chance to take control in that 4th set. Even if he lost it, he could have played in a way that left Alcaraz completely empty for the 5th.
I know you are coming at this from the POV of a Sinner fan, and I would probably say the same thing about myself. Watching this match, it seems like a lost opportunity for Sinner. If Jannik could just change his mental approach slightly when playing Alcaraz, he could really dominate their matchup. Sinner is better when both guys are playing freely, but as we have seen, that is rarely the case.
Sinner's head/pressure issues don't seem to result in the same peaks as valleys that we saw with Alcaraz and Zverev, but they can certainly make him play very tight. Just look at that AO final, where he was basically frozen for the first two sets. I think that was partially caused by being the heavy favorite, and everyone saying Medvedev would be a zombie after having played for so long, so Jannik only needed to show up and collect the trophy, but the point is he still felt the pressure of the moment.
All that said, I think both Sinner and Alcaraz will fell less and less pressure as they mature and advance in their careers, making more room for spectacular tennis from both players. And the good news, in my eyes, is that I think Sinner has the edge when they are both playing normally (as mentioned above).
Was there a broadcast replay that showed the Hawkeye call on that ball? Because my replay didn't show it, and that usually means the umpire got it wrong (but not always).
Anyway, I thought the margin of error was less than 9mm (but maybe that is for other surfaces), and I don't understand why we didn't see a close up of the actual mark. That was definitely the turning point of the match, and it was a double benefit for Carlos: the ball was called in, and it blew up Zverev's brain for the remaining 2 break point chances.
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
This is the type of analysis you really want from a former player, but which isn't always guaranteed. Some former players make lousy announcers. (Also, having played a different sport myself, sometimes I watch it with people who are big fans of the sport but never played, and often their comments make you realize just how much of the game they can't see or understand).
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
I think he is a strong contender for Wimbledon or US Open. I feel he has gone up couple levels mentally and will be a GS contender going forwards.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Agreed he was basically without a first serve in both the semi and finals and still managed to pull it out. Carlos is the true prince.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
I am with you, I doubt whether Carlos can defend his Wimbledon without fixing his first serve. He was basically without it and you cannot win Wimbledon without it.
flyingboris
Legend
Andy Roddick on the hat cam for the umpire: “It’s like if Blair Witch project messed up fu**ing up reading marks”. “As if we needed another angle to watch you suck at your job”. LOL
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Especially after he didn't play Rome before RG.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Nobody cares about the Olympic gold in tennis. Like Murray would have won the Olympic gold if the Olympics was on clay.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
All of those 5 setters came back to bite him in the ass, he is no Nadal. He is close to winning a GS though.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Well, if he thinks one wrong call will get him a GS, get in line buddy there is a long list of people who blew their career because of it. Hopefully he will win one.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Especially when each game had atleast couple dueces.
flyingboris
Legend
Am I misremembering? I thought he walked over to the umpire (and presumably shook his hand) while Carlos was taking a mud bath.
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tennis4me
Legend
The Hawkeye with it's inaccuracies was created by human.
Human (more specifically FO organizers): "... Can't use you, Hawkeye, you're not accurate enough, marks must be called/verified by a real person like me.
Hawkeye: "but you're inaccurate too!
If you're so accurate, why can't you make me more accurate?"
Human: Shut it, you're just jealous of my accuracies, my job. Besides, it's a"tradition" to get down and check the mark! It gives me a sense of importance, power and it's good exercise for me
FO is the only last remaining GS that doesn't use some sort of Hawkeye-like technology. Next year, supposedly they will use electronic line call. May not be specifically Hawkeye - especially after the above insubordination.
Human (more specifically FO organizers): "... Can't use you, Hawkeye, you're not accurate enough, marks must be called/verified by a real person like me.
Hawkeye: "but you're inaccurate too!
If you're so accurate, why can't you make me more accurate?"Human: Shut it, you're just jealous of my accuracies, my job. Besides, it's a"tradition" to get down and check the mark! It gives me a sense of importance, power and it's good exercise for me
FO is the only last remaining GS that doesn't use some sort of Hawkeye-like technology. Next year, supposedly they will use electronic line call. May not be specifically Hawkeye - especially after the above insubordination.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Zverev did shake the umpire's hand while Carlos was getting up from his celebration. It was clearly shown and looked like a decent handshake.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Zverev has played Wimbledon 8 times in his career and never made it past the fourth round.
His movement on grass is poor for an elite player. As Fed said after destroying him in Halle in 2017 (6-3, 6-1), "I think maybe Alex needs to maximize short steps on grass. That's the key to moving well on the surface."
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
As of this date, Zverev has an abysmal record at Wimbledon, and as he ages, there's nothing--other than all of his likely opponents all suffering from injuries, and/or having mass mental lapses and/or simply not entering the event--which would make Zverev a "strong contender" at Wimbledon.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Zverev hasn’t figured out how to move on grass. Some players figure it out and some don’t. The ones who don’t are never going to be strong contenders to win Wimbledon even if they have a big serve.
Genie Of the Bank
Hall of Fame
Murray was a great inspiration for his country, Olympic gold is still very prestigious award. Not on slam level but still it echos throughout the history.
He didn't have many aces when he won Wimbledon.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
There is nothing in Zverev's history that indicates he is a contender for Wimbledon. The Zverev delusions on this site continue. He did well on clay, but his entire history since he was a teenager indicates he is a contender on clay, nothing has ever indicated this on grass. To his credit he did do better in the RG final than I expected, but he still lost, despite playing his very best, and Alcarez being very far beneath his, plus having a lead. Anyway like I said that is clay, which he always been strong on, nothing he has ever shown to be on grass.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Yes, but this is a menist site, and it is clear many do not care about the protection and safety of women, which is just sad.
That aside, just evaluating Zverev as a tennis player, at absolute best he is as Tennis Magazine described Sabatini soon after her retirement. He is very good, but never great, and never will be. Except that is probably being generous, as he has not yet proven himself even a player of Sabatini's calibre per gender yet, and quite possibly never will. Sabatini was ridiculously overhyped in her day as Tennis Magazine rightly called out, but she still reached 18 slam semis, and her winning only 1 slam while evidence of how overrated she was, was also in part to having the super bad luck to be in an era of Navratilova, Graf, Seles, and even Sanchez. Zverev has the most favorable situation in history, and still can barely do anything with it, including winning a slam title with a couple that were virtually handed to him that he still couldn't take as he isn't good enough.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
That's the case: over the years, many a Talk Tennis Warehouse member has shared the same antisocial behavior regarding women, that is, when they were not openly lusting after then-younger players such as Bouchard, Harkleroad, or whining about Halp's personal choice to alter her own body, etc.
He does not even rank on Sabatini's level, after all, she did win a major, yet Zverev constantly runs into walls with his questionable tennis skills.
He will need that perfect storm of player injuries, mental lapses, illness or some not showing up in order to steal a major.
Mike Sams
G.O.A.T.
Z should talk to Del Potro for some tips on how to play on grass.
mightyjeditribble
Legend
Couldn't watch as I was otherwise occupied. But it turns out my prediction was spot on - for once.
I'm happy for Alcaraz, but what a tough result for Zed to lose a second slam final from a significant lead. Hopefully he can see that he is close, and keep posing the question.
Can Alcaraz become the youngest player to get the career GS? Things change quickly in tennis, but right now it seems inconceivable that he won't win the AO at some point.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
I like the umpires. I don't like the bare courts. I am sure there are people working on some bot to replace the ball boys/girls. Replace the chair umpire too and it will be swellThe Hawkeye with it's inaccuracies was created by human.
Human (more specifically FO organizers): "... Can't use you, Hawkeye, you're not accurate enough, marks must be called/verified by a real person like me.
Hawkeye: "but you're inaccurate too!
Human: Shut it, you're just jealous of my accuracies, my job. Besides, it's a"tradition" to get down and check the mark! It gives me a sense of importance, power and it's good exercise for me
FO is the only last remaining GS that doesn't use some sort of Hawkeye-like technology. Next year, supposedly they will use electronic line call. May not be specifically Hawkeye - especially after the above insubordination.
mightyjeditribble
Legend
Replace the tennis players too while you're at it.
To be honest, I don't mind the automatic line calling. But sometimes I wonder how sensitive it is to the calibration that has to happen in order for the system to work, and whether and how much it is checked throughout the event.
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
At the risk of starting a huge argument, I've seen this stated many times about Alcaraz's performance, and I'm not sure I can agree.
This is who Carlos Alcaraz is. He can be a spectacular player, but we (and possibly he himself) are seeing that maintaining the level of mental and physical effort necessary to play that kind of tennis is difficult.
I was thinking before that Alcaraz is like Corentin Moutet on steroids (figuratively and perhaps literally). Being that creative, intense and physical takes a lot out of you. Lapses during matches, and even stretches of the season, are to be expected.
And now to really start an argument, you could say that all 3 of Carlos' slams were courtesy of players choking away matches to him. Sinner had a lead on him in the USO (and that was the match where Carlos maintained his level for the longest period, thanks to being so young and new), Djokovic choked on some key points in Wimbledon, and Zverev did what we all just saw him do. That doesn't take anything away from Alcaraz's wins, but I do think it shows that he isn't this unstoppable highlight machine in every set of every match. And the older he gets, the harder it will be to maintain that level on a consistent basis.
I’m an Alcaraz fan and this is also my view. His style is taxing on the body and we can see him having cramps quite often. In the long run, injuries and slumps in form will inevitably start to appear.
flyingboris
Legend
That’s what you’d think, but that’s also what I thought about Nadal. Granted, Nadal developed some issues, but he lasted way longer than I would have expected. Here’s hoping Carlos is made of the same or better stuff.
