Role of College Coach in Admissions?

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
With the Ivy’s and D3s,tennis just helps an already academically qualified student gain acceptance. How does tennis and admissions work with selective D1s? I am not talking about Virginia, NC, Stanford, Duke, etc but other fairly selective D1 colleges-ones with admissions in the 30%-50% range.

Are coaches allowed a certain number of special admits that may have either SAT scores or GPA lower than the average regular admit? If a recruited player (4 or 5 star) has an acceptable GPA but just average test scores, is he/she likely to be admitted to the selective college with the coach’s support? There is such a range of selectivity; a player could qualify for merit and athletic aid at a couple schools, but be below the median SAT score at others. Of course players can take SATs or ACTs multiple times or take a lengthy expensive course to try to improve scores. However, with the new SAT coming out in March and with those scores not even coming out until May or June, this year’s juniors and seniors are somewhat screwed if they decided to study on their own for fall tests and did not get the scores they hoped.

Here is another question. Even if players gain admission to schools with lower scores than the average student, is it a good idea? On the one hand, the players would have access to academic support and tutoring if needed. On the other hand, the players would have a large portion of their time dedicated to practice and competition, so if they got behind, it might be hard to catch up. This is all relative as lower academics credentials may mean a 3.5 in college prep and some honors vs As in mostly APs of the regular applicants. Also the SAT may not be a good predictor of college success for all students. I am not talking football players with 800 SATs and 2.3 in basic courses. We know of some players at very selective D1s that were either homeschooled or did not go to the best high schools who are doing OK in college but they chose the easiest majors at those schools.

I was reading an article about the NLI yesterday. The author was describing how a coach could void the NLI. If a player with lower academic credentials signed an NLI with a college due to the coach promising admission support, but later the coach decided he wanted another player more, all the coach would have to do is withdraw the admission support, the player would not be accepted and the NLI would be void. Players and parents better trust the coaches if they decide to sign with schools they would not get in without tennis.

Should recruits just seek out colleges where they fit or exceed the median GPA/SAT/ACT profile? Or should they be open to universities which might be an academic stretch if the teams have high graduation rates and the coaches seem supportive?
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
With the Ivy’s and D3s,tennis just helps an already academically qualified student gain acceptance. How does tennis and admissions work with selective D1s? I am not talking about Virginia, NC, Stanford, Duke, etc but other fairly selective D1 colleges-ones with admissions in the 30%-50% range.

Are coaches allowed a certain number of special admits that may have either SAT scores or GPA lower than the average regular admit? If a recruited player (4 or 5 star) has an acceptable GPA but just average test scores, is he/she likely to be admitted to the selective college with the coach’s support? There is such a range of selectivity; a player could qualify for merit and athletic aid at a couple schools, but be below the median SAT score at others. Of course players can take SATs or ACTs multiple times or take a lengthy expensive course to try to improve scores. However, with the new SAT coming out in March and with those scores not even coming out until May or June, this year’s juniors and seniors are somewhat screwed if they decided to study on their own for fall tests and did not get the scores they hoped.

Here is another question. Even if players gain admission to schools with lower scores than the average student, is it a good idea? On the one hand, the players would have access to academic support and tutoring if needed. On the other hand, the players would have a large portion of their time dedicated to practice and competition, so if they got behind, it might be hard to catch up. This is all relative as lower academics credentials may mean a 3.5 in college prep and some honors vs As in mostly APs of the regular applicants. Also the SAT may not be a good predictor of college success for all students. I am not talking football players with 800 SATs and 2.3 in basic courses. We know of some players at very selective D1s that were either homeschooled or did not go to the best high schools who are doing OK in college but they chose the easiest majors at those schools.

I was reading an article about the NLI yesterday. The author was describing how a coach could void the NLI. If a player with lower academic credentials signed an NLI with a college due to the coach promising admission support, but later the coach decided he wanted another player more, all the coach would have to do is withdraw the admission support, the player would not be accepted and the NLI would be void. Players and parents better trust the coaches if they decide to sign with schools they would not get in without tennis.

Should recruits just seek out colleges where they fit or exceed the median GPA/SAT/ACT profile? Or should they be open to universities which might be an academic stretch if the teams have high graduation rates and the coaches seem supportive?
Not going to answer all your questions since my knowledge on this is still limited to an extent; but, Ivys and D3s still lower their standards a good amount for student athletes. I have friends who did not deserve their spot at schools like Uchicago or Harvard but got in because of sports. Yes, sport is still a huge extracurricular especially if you are at a level to get recruited, but even then, athletes will always be tremendously underqualified compared to students who get in by merit at prestigious D3 and top 15 academic D1 universities. D3 schools like Uchicago and MIT lower their standard less than say Harvard though. It is simply impossible to reach the standard required to get into these schools while playing tennis as much as 4 star to blue chip recruits do.

I don't think a recruit should take a less academic prestigious school just because they can't handle the one they got recruited to. If they aren't planning on going pro, they just need to be more motivated and work harder, but they should also know, job recruitment is a completely different world from college applications. There is no affirmative action and there are no sports. This is probably reflective across all fields, but in the banking industry, you can easily tell when someone doesn't deserve their place at a prestigious institution but got in because of race or other aspects. They won't award you a job then since they aren't trying to create a diverse community like colleges are. This is why you see so many smart asian and white people at the top of this field. They were more qualified to begin with and they truly deserved their spot at the prestigious institution. Ultimately, it is up to them to decide whether or not they choose to accept admission to a school with lower scores. If they are going pro, then by all means since the education won't mean anything to them anyways, if not, then they should be prepared for the rough road ahead.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
It is simply impossible to reach the standard required to get into these schools while playing tennis as much as 4 star to blue chip recruits do.
I don't think a recruit should take a less academic prestigious school just because they can't handle the one they got recruited to. If they aren't planning on going pro, they just need to be more motivated and work harder, Ultimately, it is up to them to decide whether or not they choose to accept admission to a school with lower scores. If they are going pro, then by all means since the education won't mean anything to them anyways, if not, then they should be prepared for the rough road ahead.
Thanks for your input. It sounds like you recommend that athletes choose the most prestigious school they can get in and then work hard at both school and tennis. You are correct that there is a tradeoff between academic level and tennis level. Players who were 4-5 stars in middle school take 5 APs a year and drop to 2-3 stars in HS because they skip drills. A few players who are very fast processors and readers can make As in multiple APs while still practicing 4 hours a day and tournaments every other weekend. Son had a friend who took a 2 semester 36 week HS college prep class virtually in 6 weeks one summer with multiple written projects due weekly while playing 5 day long tourneys; that friend probably will play for an Ivy team. However, you do not usually see guys studying between matches at tourneys. Most serious tennis players dial back the rigor some in high school to ensure they dont make a C in an AP; players can miss up to 20% of classes a month just going to tournaments that run Friday through Monday. Easier to keep up with a few flexible virtual courses. Most high guys do some hybrid-4 classes on campus and 2 virtual or are completely virtually schooled. Guys who play ITFs have to homeschool. Yet homeschool players get in Ivys so there is some leeway. Some rich kids have private tutors to walk them through virtual school courses. AP courses are offered at virtual schools.

In college, I am sure there is a lot of positive peer pressure for players to make the grades so they are eligible to play. That is different than high school when players either motivate themselves or by parents.If most freshmen stay on the team all 4 years(we check past year rosters), that's a good sign players get the academic support and tennis development they need at that college. If the team's graduation rate is high too, then recruits will probably be OK going for the academic stretch school.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Thanks for your input. It sounds like you recommend that athletes choose the most prestigious school they can get in and then work hard at both school and tennis. You are correct that there is a tradeoff between academic level and tennis level. Players who were 4-5 stars in middle school take 5 APs a year and drop to 2-3 stars in HS because they skip drills. A few players who are very fast processors and readers can make As in multiple APs while still practicing 4 hours a day and tournaments every other weekend. Son had a friend who took a 2 semester 36 week HS college prep class virtually in 6 weeks one summer with multiple written projects due weekly while playing 5 day long tourneys; that friend probably will play for an Ivy team. However, you do not usually see guys studying between matches at tourneys. Most serious tennis players dial back the rigor some in high school to ensure they dont make a C in an AP; players can miss up to 20% of classes a month just going to tournaments that run Friday through Monday. Easier to keep up with a few flexible virtual courses. Most high guys do some hybrid-4 classes on campus and 2 virtual or are completely virtually schooled. Guys who play ITFs have to homeschool. Yet homeschool players get in Ivys so there is some leeway. Some rich kids have private tutors to walk them through virtual school courses. AP courses are offered at virtual schools.

In college, I am sure there is a lot of positive peer pressure for players to make the grades so they are eligible to play. That is different than high school when players either motivate themselves or by parents.If most freshmen stay on the team all 4 years(we check past year rosters), that's a good sign players get the academic support and tennis development they need at that college. If the team's graduation rate is high too, then recruits will probably be OK going for the academic stretch school.
Thing is, you don't need to be taking 3-5 APs per year if you are a student athlete. That is just how lenient the top tier academic colleges are for student athletes. 2 APs per year starting junior year would more than suffice for a school like Harvard if you are top 40 in the nation. I'm nowhere near good enough to get recruited by top tier colleges, but whenever tennis season comes around for me school always become hell. Traveling to schools 1-2 hours away is the worst especially when I have tests in 2-3 AP classes(not bs AP classes like AP art history either) the next day. I can't imagine how a 5 star or even 4 star could maintain that level of play year round while taking more than 3 meaningful APs. One of my 5 star friends is taking 2 APs in core subjects right now. He'll more than definitely be able to get recruited by any of the Ivys although he won't be even half as qualified as any of the kids that I know that got in by merit. Tennis itself is just a sport that lends itself to excessive training to stay at the top.
 

illzoni

Semi-Pro
Two thoughts....

1) We attended a local 'NCCA Night' at a local HS. They focused primarily on students barely qualifying and a local D1 mens coach (not tennis) spoke quite a bit, along with their compliance director. They do still have "special admits" for students who don't fully qualify.

2) My understanding of the top academic schools is that tennis is a good way to get their attention when you qualify but might otherwise get lost in the shuffle. Let's face it, the qualifications it takes to get into the 'top' schools are nebulous. Applicants may be fully-qualified academically yet not get any attention from admissions. Our hope is that tennis garners the attention needed to gain admission.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Two thoughts....

1) We attended a local 'NCCA Night' at a local HS. They focused primarily on students barely qualifying and a local D1 mens coach (not tennis) spoke quite a bit, along with their compliance director. They do still have "special admits" for students who don't fully qualify.

2) My understanding of the top academic schools is that tennis is a good way to get their attention when you qualify but might otherwise get lost in the shuffle. Let's face it, the qualifications it takes to get into the 'top' schools are nebulous. Applicants may be fully-qualified academically yet not get any attention from admissions. Our hope is that tennis garners the attention needed to gain admission.
Well.....pretty much all student athletes that I know would not be even close to qualifying. I have friends who have 2350+ SATs, near perfect GPAs, amazing extracurriculars, and very rigorous schedules, yet a good chunk of them recently got denied or deferred by schools like Columbia, Princeton, and MIT. My transcript isn't perfect, but it is better than any student athletes' and in the top echelon(not Harvard or MIT level though), yet I recently got rejected by a top 15 school. Now you look at some of the student athletes that I know, I'm not going to list any of their stats, but they are by no means qualified compared to any of the kids who get in by merit. They aren't dumb by any means, but playing most sports(tennis especially) at that high of a level means a sacrifice in academics. As long as good student athletes have 2050+ SAT and I'd say 88%+ GPA with at least 4 APs total, I think they have a good chance at getting in all schools except for MIT and Uchicago assuming they are playing at a level that attracts the coaches' attention. As long as you are talking to coaches early, being a student athlete is like knowing the admissions officer who is looking at your application, most of the time you pretty much know you are in beforehand. If you impress the coaches enough, some schools like UPenn for example, would even coax you to going by offering you a spot at Wharton.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
At the Air Force Academy, a coach could get a student admitted if their test scores and GPA were above the 25th percentile of incoming freshmen. Below that, the student would likely be looking at the prep school. The same is true of West Point and the Naval Academy also. Some coaches with more influence could get really weak athletes admitted who probably needed a year at the prep school, but even with lots of academic support and tutoring, most were destined to flunk out.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Well.....pretty much all student athletes that I know would not be even close to qualifying. I have friends who have 2350+ SATs, near perfect GPAs, amazing extracurriculars, and very rigorous schedules, yet a good chunk of them recently got denied or deferred by schools like Columbia, Princeton, and MIT. My transcript isn't perfect, but it is better than any student athletes' and in the top echelon(not Harvard or MIT level though), yet I recently got rejected by a top 15 school. Now you look at some of the student athletes that I know, I'm not going to list any of their stats, but they are by no means qualified compared to any of the kids who get in by merit. They aren't dumb by any means, but playing most sports(tennis especially) at that high of a level means a sacrifice in academics. As long as good student athletes have 2050+ SAT and I'd say 88%+ GPA with at least 4 APs total, I think they have a good chance at getting in all schools except for MIT and Uchicago assuming they are playing at a level that attracts the coaches' attention. As long as you are talking to coaches early, being a student athlete is like knowing the admissions officer who is looking at your application, most of the time you pretty much know you are in beforehand. If you impress the coaches enough, some schools like UPenn for example, would even coax you to going by offering you a spot at Wharton.
blue chip tennis recruit with a 3.9 gpa and 2100 sat has a harvard offer. he doesnt know if he is going, but has that on the table. Im sure you have better grades.

But extracariculars only matter if they make you special and exclusive. being a blue chip-4 star makes you a better applicant than being a part of 30 different clubs, having an above average gpa as well as good test scores? you can get into just about any school you want. Sports and commitment are undervalued by parents but admissions cares a lot about them.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
blue chip tennis recruit with a 3.9 gpa and 2100 sat has a harvard offer. he doesnt know if he is going, but has that on the table. Im sure you have better grades.

But extracariculars only matter if they make you special and exclusive. being a blue chip-4 star makes you a better applicant than being a part of 30 different clubs, having an above average gpa as well as good test scores? you can get into just about any school you want. Sports and commitment are undervalued by parents but admissions cares a lot about them.
No commitment is not undervalued by parents and students. I know how much commitment matters and that is why ED acceptance rates are so much higher and if you go to that university's camp for consecutive it increases your chances too. Trust me, in my area at least commitment is not undervalued and it is one thing we all show for our reach schools.

Yes.....I've been applying to colleges.... Obviously being president of a club is better than just being a member. What I'm saying though is that my friends who go deferred or rejected by the top Ivys not only had perfect stats, but also amazing extracurricular in the sense that they were presidents of clubs, winners of national awards, etc. These friends that I'm talking about were also asian so there goes the reason they were deferred/rejected.

Being a blue chip automatically makes you better than someone who is part of 30 clubs(who does this though? honestly, I'm 100% sure we as high school seniors know that being a leader of a club or having many hours at an internship related to your major is better than random clubs). Being a blue chip also automatically makes you better than pretty much all the applicant pool though even at Harvard. These schools are part business and they want good sports teams, you obviously know that. Is this fair? Who knows, the argument can go both ways, but you can not argue that your friend who has a Harvard offer is better than most of the applicant pool academically. 2100 SAT is wayyyyyy below average for Harvard in terms of getting in by merit.

I have a higher SAT than that kid by a good amount. Depends if GPA is weighted or not.

Of course sports aren't undervalued. I literally mentioned in my post why sports aren't undervalued. If I had the choice of parenting myself, I would have made myself start tennis much earlier and play much more so I can get recruited and not have to go through this bs that is college applications through merit.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
No commitment is not undervalued by parents and students. I know how much commitment matters and that is why ED acceptance rates are so much higher and if you go to that university's camp for consecutive it increases your chances too. Trust me, in my area at least commitment is not undervalued and it is one thing we all show for our reach schools.

Yes.....I've been applying to colleges.... Obviously being president of a club is better than just being a member. What I'm saying though is that my friends who go deferred or rejected by the top Ivys not only had perfect stats, but also amazing extracurricular in the sense that they were presidents of clubs, winners of national awards, etc. These friends that I'm talking about were also asian so there goes the reason they were deferred/rejected.

Being a blue chip automatically makes you better than someone who is part of 30 clubs(who does this though? honestly, I'm 100% sure we as high school seniors know that being a leader of a club or having many hours at an internship related to your major is better than random clubs). Being a blue chip also automatically makes you better than pretty much all the applicant pool though even at Harvard. These schools are part business and they want good sports teams, you obviously know that. Is this fair? Who knows, the argument can go both ways, but you can not argue that your friend who has a Harvard offer is better than most of the applicant pool academically. 2100 SAT is wayyyyyy below average for Harvard in terms of getting in by merit.

I have a higher SAT than that kid by a good amount. Depends if GPA is weighted or not.

Of course sports aren't undervalued. I literally mentioned in my post why sports aren't undervalued. If I had the choice of parenting myself, I would have made myself start tennis much earlier and play much more so I can get recruited and not have to go through this bs that is college applications through merit.
By commitment I meant commitment to a sport or extracurricular like debate. Not Ed

Tho I'm pretty sure 90% of people know Ed is important, I went Ed to my school.
 

mmk

Hall of Fame
... D3 schools like Uchicago and MIT lower their standard less than say Harvard though. It is simply impossible to reach the standard required to get into these schools while playing tennis as much as 4 star to blue chip recruits do....

My youngest daughter went to MIT, played and captained field hockey and lacrosse. When she was in high school MIT's field hockey coach (who was also the lax coach at the time) told her at a national tournament that she'd only talk to her after she got accepted, so I don't know that the standards were lowered at all. She didn't need them to be - she had around 2300 on the SAT, equivalent scores on the SAT IIs, and one 4 and the rest 5s on the AP tests, plus an internship you wouldn't believe and I can't talk about.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
My youngest daughter went to MIT, played and captained field hockey and lacrosse. When she was in high school MIT's field hockey coach (who was also the lax coach at the time) told her at a national tournament that she'd only talk to her after she got accepted, so I don't know that the standards were lowered at all. She didn't need them to be - she had around 2300 on the SAT, equivalent scores on the SAT IIs, and one 4 and the rest 5s on the AP tests, plus an internship you wouldn't believe and I can't talk about.
Nah, I'd believe it unless it was like an actual important internship for Goldman or something.

MIT is different. I don't how different, but they don't do legacy unlike pretty much every school in the country. Standards might or might not have been lowered for your daughter and that is the way MIT is. They still use affirmative action but truly do have their focus 99% in academics. Its probably different with field hockey and lacrosse though. The lacrosse kids I know who got recruited by Ivys don't practice nearly as much as some of the 4 and 5 stars I've met.

Thing is, I don't see how you get to 5 stars and maintain it without risking academics. Take the #13 in the nation for last year's class. Got recruited by MIT, but I just don't see how he competes with just about all of the kids who get into MIT by merit. The kids I know who got accepted and deferred by MIT recently all started taking courses like Multivariable Calc and AP Physics C in sophomore year and continued to take college classes at the Ivy I live close to by junior/senior year. They have pretty much all won national awards in various STEM competitions too. This is what MIT likes to see and it really doesn't seem possible to train as much as a 5 star does every day while getting those perfect grades and don't even think about winning national awards or college classes.

I know Uchicago does lower standards though for sure.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
[...]
Being a blue chip automatically makes you better than someone who is part of 30 clubs(who does this though? honestly, I'm 100% sure we as high school seniors know that being a leader of a club or having many hours at an internship related to your major is better than random clubs). Being a blue chip also automatically makes you better than pretty much all the applicant pool though even at Harvard. These schools are part business and they want good sports teams, you obviously know that. Is this fair? Who knows, the argument can go both ways, but you can not argue that your friend who has a Harvard offer is better than most of the applicant pool academically. 2100 SAT is wayyyyyy below average for Harvard in terms of getting in by merit.
[...] As long as good student athletes have 2050+ SAT and I'd say 88%+ GPA with at least 4 APs total, I think they have a good chance at getting in all schools except for MIT and Uchicago assuming they are playing at a level that attracts the coaches' attention. As long as you are talking to coaches early, being a student athlete is like knowing the admissions officer who is looking at your application, most of the time you pretty much know you are in beforehand. If you impress the coaches enough, some schools like UPenn for example, would even coax you to going by offering you a spot at Wharton.
You probably meant well but there's a significant difference between a 'blue chip' and a 'good student athlete'. After all there's maybe 30-40 Blue Chip players per year, while there are many, many more 'good student athletes'. So yes, being a Blue Chip may make up for academics being a bit sub-par compared to others. Being just a 'good student athlete' - not so much.

And as far as being accepted/rejected to Ivy/MIT/UChicago. The truth is that almost all applicants are very, very good and only 6-10% are accepted. It's going to be 'unfair' to some students, no matter what criteria you apply. But indeed, many resources seem to show that being dedicated to something (whether it is art, community service, sports) is way better from the acceptance standpoint than being part of many possibly unrelated activities. It just shows passion and commitment rather than "I'm part of ABC because it will look good on college application"
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
MIT is different. I don't how different, but they don't do legacy unlike pretty much every school in the country. Standards might or might not have been lowered for your daughter and that is the way MIT is. They still use affirmative action but truly do have their focus 99% in academics. Its probably different with field hockey and lacrosse though. The lacrosse kids I know who got recruited by Ivys don't practice nearly as much as some of the 4 and 5 stars I've met.

Uh, no. MIT's affirmative action admits a large number of very weak students. When I was in graduate school there, I was a tutor in the MIT Office of Minority Education, and I worked with a lot of these weak students. In many cases, their math, reading, and science skills were far, far below those of their peers who did not have affirmative action in play when they were admitted.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Uh, no. MIT's affirmative action admits a large number of very weak students. When I was in graduate school there, I was a tutor in the MIT Office of Minority Education, and I worked with a lot of these weak students. In many cases, their math, reading, and science skills were far, far below those of their peers who did not have affirmative action in play when they were admitted.
yes....that is what I said. If they didn't use affirmative action, or if any top school didn't, their student population would be 95% asian.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
yes....that is what I said. If they didn't use affirmative action, or if any top school didn't, their student population would be 95% asian.

You're missing the point, so I will articulate it more thoroughly.

It's not just that the minorities aren't quite as good as the normal admits, it's that large numbers of them are not even properly prepared for college Calculus, college Chemistry, college Physics, college Composition, college History, etc.

To have a good chance to pass the underprepared students in these courses, most schools will end up significantly lowering academic rigor for all their students.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
You're missing the point, so I will articulate it more thoroughly.

It's not just that the minorities aren't quite as good as the normal admits, it's that large numbers of them are not even properly prepared for college Calculus, college Chemistry, college Physics, college Composition, college History, etc.

To have a good chance to pass the underprepared students in these courses, most schools will end up significantly lowering academic rigor for all their students.
Well yes, you can't expect URM and the general caucasian population to be at the same level as asians. Obviously Asians don't even make up too much of a school's population other than for UC schools so it wouldn't be reasonable to hold all students up the standard of the top 10% of the class. The underprepared students still obviously end up with lower grades.

Basically I'm just saying yes, your point is correct.
 
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Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Well yes, you can't expect URM and the general caucasian population to be at the same level as asians. Obviously Asians don't even make up too much of a school's population other than for UC schools so it wouldn't be reasonable to hold all students up the standard of the top 10% of the class. The underprepared students still obviously end up with lower grades.

Basically I'm just saying yes, your point is correct.

I think that beyond being benefitial to the schools athletic program, being higher than a 3 star is good on a resume, even if you don't try to play on the team. I knew some kids who played tennis to become top 20 in texas and still had a 4.0 with high sat scores. They used tennis as a qualifier to get into bigtime schools like princeton and yale, even if they werent good enough to play.

I think that what makes athletic accomplishments so special is that there is a very small pool in the country that can reach those heights, and not without at least academy training and 6 years of play. I know its rare to have that level after only 6 but my friend reached 150 on utr after moving to an academy after 3 years of simple drilling. He was natural though

there are maybe 200 kids in the nation who could be a solid top 20 in texas , and many of those kids are top in their state or top 30-20 in their sections like florida and california.

Compare that to a science fair honor from the state or region, not every kid in a school science fair is competing for state or national honors, but every kid playing usta is.

Tennis is a good thing to have on a resume, shows leadership, self motivation and, individuality.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
I think that beyond being benefitial to the schools athletic program, being higher than a 3 star is good on a resume, even if you don't try to play on the team. I knew some kids who played tennis to become top 20 in texas and still had a 4.0 with high sat scores. They used tennis as a qualifier to get into bigtime schools like princeton and yale, even if they werent good enough to play.

I think that what makes athletic accomplishments so special is that there is a very small pool in the country that can reach those heights, and not without at least academy training and 6 years of play. I know its rare to have that level after only 6 but my friend reached 150 on utr after moving to an academy after 3 years of simple drilling. He was natural though

there are maybe 200 kids in the nation who could be a solid top 20 in texas , and many of those kids are top in their state or top 30-20 in their sections like florida and california.

Compare that to a science fair honor from the state or region, not every kid in a school science fair is competing for state or national honors, but every kid playing usta is.

Tennis is a good thing to have on a resume, shows leadership, self motivation and, individuality.
Yes it looks good on a college app, but going back to what I said earlier, it risks time you could spend on academics and it leaves you less qualified as an applicant academically(most of the time).

We aren't talking about some science fair honor here. We're talking about competitions like science Olympiad which you are competing for state honors and if you do well at states, then that goes to national. Trust me, no one is putting some stupid science fair competition they won on their college app, we're talking about nationally recognized awards here. This is far more impressive than tennis since it shows commitment to academics at a level of what could be equivalent to a 4 star-past blue chip. Sure it is a good thing, but I have 3 star friends who get rejected by schools when they apply solely by merit even though they have good stats. It doesn't necessarily show leadership unless you were captain of the team for 4 years....which isn't necessarily leadership since most of the time all that is is just playing #1 for your school. So if you are a 4 star or above you automatically qualify as someone who has a lot of leadership? Self motivation? This isn't something you need to show. If you have great stats and such it shows you have self motivation already. Individuality? How is being above 3 star supposed to have any correlation towards your future business ventures? or your future in pre-med, law, etc? You won't be able to apply your ability to change directions on court or come to net as much as someone who has interned for a company already for an extended period of time.
 
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Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Yes it looks good on a college app, but going back to what I said earlier, it risks time you could spend on academics and it leaves you less qualified as an applicant academically(most of the time).

We aren't talking about some science fair honor here. We're talking about competitions like science Olympiad which you are competing for state honors and if you do well at states, then that goes to national. Trust me, no one is putting some stupid science fair competition they won on their college app, we're talking about nationally recognized awards here. This is far more impressive than tennis since it shows commitment to academics at a level of what could be equivalent to a 4 star-past blue chip. Sure it is a good thing, but I have 3 star friends who get rejected by schools when they apply solely by merit even though they have good stats. It doesn't necessarily show leadership unless you were captain of the team for 4 years....which isn't necessarily leadership since most of the time all that is is just playing #1 for your school. So if you are a 4 star or above you automatically qualify as someone who has a lot of leadership? Self motivation? This isn't something you need to show. If you have great stats and such it shows you have self motivation already. Individuality? How is being above 3 star supposed to have any correlation towards your future business ventures? or your future in pre-med, law, etc? You won't be able to apply your ability to change directions on court or come to net as much as someone who has interned for a company already for an extended period of time.
Pre med seems to go hand in hand with tennis player personalities

While tennis itself won't help in school. The lessons will. On court you get your assss kicked over and over again if you don't put in work, you can't sub out.

Getting first team all district 4 years in a row is a rare feat. When I was a freshman I made first team all district and second team all region. Basically one of the top 8 highschool teams/players in uil tennis. I could have done this another 3 times but I went homeschooled. There were no other freshman to receive first team all district honors in both doubles and singles. I had basically achieved everything I needed out of highschool in my first year. Next was a sectional rank and now I'm working on national rank. But I know for a fact that if I had focused more in my first 2 years of school I could be at just about any school in the country. Plus affirmative action is slightly in my side, Mexico born, but American raised. I don't really add diversity, but on paper I do :p
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
We aren't talking about some science fair honor here. We're talking about competitions like science Olympiad which you are competing for state honors and if you do well at states, then that goes to national. Trust me, no one is putting some stupid science fair competition they won on their college app, we're talking about nationally recognized awards here.

Colleges recruit heavily and even award scholarships at state level science fairs. Participation and awards at state level Junior Science and Humanities Symposia also count for a lot. As in all cases, making it to national/international competitions and doing well there counts for more, but I don't think anyone winning 1st or 2nd place in a regional or state ISEF-affiliated fair or JSHS is gonna leave it off of their college admissions and scholarship applications. Having the best science project in Physics, Math, or Chemistry in a state is huge.

At any given level (regional, state, national), I would reckon most admission and scholarship committees will view accomplishments in ISEF-affiliated fairs and JSHS events as comparable with stuff like science Olympiad. Some will even view the individual accomplishments in the science fairs more highly than team accomplishments at the Olympiad.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Colleges recruit heavily and even award scholarships at state level science fairs. Participation and awards at state level Junior Science and Humanities Symposia also count for a lot. As in all cases, making it to national/international competitions and doing well there counts for more, but I don't think anyone winning 1st or 2nd place in a regional or state ISEF-affiliated fair or JSHS is gonna leave it off of their college admissions and scholarship applications. Having the best science project in Physics, Math, or Chemistry in a state is huge.

At any given level (regional, state, national), I would reckon most admission and scholarship committees will view accomplishments in ISEF-affiliated fairs and JSHS events as comparable with stuff like science Olympiad. Some will even view the individual accomplishments in the science fairs more highly than team accomplishments at the Olympiad.
Yes I know, its just that OP was making it sound like those elementary school science fairs.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Pre med seems to go hand in hand with tennis player personalities

While tennis itself won't help in school. The lessons will. On court you get your assss kicked over and over again if you don't put in work, you can't sub out.

Getting first team all district 4 years in a row is a rare feat. When I was a freshman I made first team all district and second team all region. Basically one of the top 8 highschool teams/players in uil tennis. I could have done this another 3 times but I went homeschooled. There were no other freshman to receive first team all district honors in both doubles and singles. I had basically achieved everything I needed out of highschool in my first year. Next was a sectional rank and now I'm working on national rank. But I know for a fact that if I had focused more in my first 2 years of school I could be at just about any school in the country. Plus affirmative action is slightly in my side, Mexico born, but American raised. I don't really add diversity, but on paper I do :p
If you don't mind me asking, which school did you get recruited by?

Well since you are an athlete, affirmative action doesn't really do much since building racial diversity in athletic teams would be too much nitpicking. Gotta love having all the possible anti-hooks though. Makes applications so much easier when you are asian, male, non-first gen, and non-legacy.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
If you don't mind me asking, which school did you get recruited by?

Well since you are an athlete, affirmative action doesn't really do much since building racial diversity in athletic teams would be too much nitpicking. Gotta love having all the possible anti-hooks though. Makes applications so much easier when you are asian, male, non-first gen, and non-legacy.
Affiirmative action did though since I am going to a d3, athletes get lower standards but my school was still out of my range.

Choose any school thats ranked 25-125 on national and liberal arts and I have been spammed mail by them and the admissions counselors have personally called me just to apply as a student. As a tennis player, a lot of d3 programs. Schools similar to Rhodes and Sewanee, though not those two.

But single parent immigrant and hispanic but american raised plays a good tune to admissions.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Affiirmative action did though since I am going to a d3, athletes get lower standards but my school was still out of my range.

Choose any school thats ranked 25-125 on national and liberal arts and I have been spammed mail by them and the admissions counselors have personally called me just to apply as a student. As a tennis player, a lot of d3 programs. Schools similar to Rhodes and Sewanee, though not those two.

But single parent immigrant and hispanic but american raised plays a good tune to admissions.
Well not to call you out on this....but I highly doubt you were getting offers from top tennis schools outside the top 25 us news national rankings. Schools like UVA and Baylor. Don't think schools like Umich, NYU, UNC, and other top 25-30 or even top 45s were giving you calls to apply as a student either. Yes they send you spam mail, who doesn't get these starting freshman year, but to personally get a call from an admissions officer to apply as a student from a top 45 school(national)? Never heard of it even from people who had a high school resume that excels at MIT.

Nonetheless, its still pretty impressive, I'm assuming you are somewhere from a high 3 star to 4 star then or whatever the equivalent of that is in Texas?
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Well not to call you out on this....but I highly doubt you were getting offers from top tennis schools outside the top 25 us news national rankings. Schools like UVA and Baylor. Don't think schools like Umich, NYU, UNC, and other top 25-30 or even top 45s were giving you calls to apply as a student either. Yes they send you spam mail, who doesn't get these starting freshman year, but to personally get a call from an admissions officer to apply as a student from a top 45 school(national)? Never heard of it even from people who had a high school resume that excels at MIT.

Nonetheless, its still pretty impressive, I'm assuming you are somewhere from a high 3 star to 4 star then or whatever the equivalent of that is in Texas?
basically around that range after 6 months of training. once my rolling results get removed i will be in 3 star range for graduation and my utr is currently a 9, but a high 9, have only lost to utr 11-12 recently so i should move to a 10-11.

it kinda sucks that last years results weigh you down.

and no, no tennis offers from schools outside the top 25. few d1 offers, but almost every d3 school outside the top 25 did try and i got some top 15 offers in d3.

And I signed up for another thing that matched me and sent resumes out to the schools, after schools saw it they did try for me to apply. mostly schools with less than 3% hispanic population. I was part of national latin club and won some awards doing that as well as holding office in 3 clubs at my school that were more exclusive than others or held in high esteem. I also went undefeated in my district in debate (public forum). Beyond that I had a 99% on the duke math test in middle school as well as perfect state standardized test scores in math 4 years and commended scores in every single state test.

Good resume and sscores on a lot of lists that go out to schools.

my gpa wasnt good though because I didn't like homework lol it was a 3.5 first two years, and now i hold a 4.2 for senior year.
 
...it kinda sucks that last years results weigh you down.

Just to clarify, we use your last 30 match results, going back 12 months, to calculate your Universal Tennis Rating (UTR). If you played 30 matches during the past few months, your "last years results" will have no impact on your current UTR.

Wishing you a great year of tennis!

Universal Tennis
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Just to clarify, we use your last 30 match results, going back 12 months, to calculate your Universal Tennis Rating (UTR). If you played 30 matches during the past few months, your "last years results" will have no impact on your current UTR.

Wishing you a great year of tennis!

Universal Tennis
Thanks, and unfortunately may and prior are weighing me down right now

Schools and college applications had taken a toll so i only played tournaments i could properly prepare for, like 1-2 a month
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
With the Ivy’s and D3s,tennis just helps an already academically qualified student gain acceptance. How does tennis and admissions work with selective D1s? I am not talking about Virginia, NC, Stanford, Duke, etc but other fairly selective D1 colleges-ones with admissions in the 30%-50% range.

Are coaches allowed a certain number of special admits that may have either SAT scores or GPA lower than the average regular admit? If a recruited player (4 or 5 star) has an acceptable GPA but just average test scores, is he/she likely to be admitted to the selective college with the coach’s support? There is such a range of selectivity; a player could qualify for merit and athletic aid at a couple schools, but be below the median SAT score at others. Of course players can take SATs or ACTs multiple times or take a lengthy expensive course to try to improve scores. However, with the new SAT coming out in March and with those scores not even coming out until May or June, this year’s juniors and seniors are somewhat screwed if they decided to study on their own for fall tests and did not get the scores they hoped.

Here is another question. Even if players gain admission to schools with lower scores than the average student, is it a good idea? On the one hand, the players would have access to academic support and tutoring if needed. On the other hand, the players would have a large portion of their time dedicated to practice and competition, so if they got behind, it might be hard to catch up. This is all relative as lower academics credentials may mean a 3.5 in college prep and some honors vs As in mostly APs of the regular applicants. Also the SAT may not be a good predictor of college success for all students. I am not talking football players with 800 SATs and 2.3 in basic courses. We know of some players at very selective D1s that were either homeschooled or did not go to the best high schools who are doing OK in college but they chose the easiest majors at those schools.

I was reading an article about the NLI yesterday. The author was describing how a coach could void the NLI. If a player with lower academic credentials signed an NLI with a college due to the coach promising admission support, but later the coach decided he wanted another player more, all the coach would have to do is withdraw the admission support, the player would not be accepted and the NLI would be void. Players and parents better trust the coaches if they decide to sign with schools they would not get in without tennis.

Should recruits just seek out colleges where they fit or exceed the median GPA/SAT/ACT profile? Or should they be open to universities which might be an academic stretch if the teams have high graduation rates and the coaches seem supportive?
http://bowdoinorient.com/article/9151

read this. lots of schools do it, at many schools they lower standards and are allowed a certain number of lower rated athletes
 

tennis_ocd

Hall of Fame
I know how much commitment matters and that is why ED acceptance rates are so much higher and if you go to that university's camp for consecutive it increases your chances too.
fwiw, I didn't realize until after going through the ED process how deceptive these numbers can be to non-athletes (or how coaches use the ED process to lock up top players.)
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
fwiw, I didn't realize until after going through the ED process how deceptive these numbers can be to non-athletes (or how coaches use the ED process to lock up top players.)
I am one of these lol, top 25 lac and top tennis school. I have a 3.5 and 1800(good enough...1230 math and reading) and i fall into the 8th percentile at my ed school.

This is why they use the term "holistic applcation" for athletes. I am also holding a 3.8 for the first semester in senior year lol
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
fwiw, I didn't realize until after going through the ED process how deceptive these numbers can be to non-athletes (or how coaches use the ED process to lock up top players.)
True. A school with a 12% overall acceptance rate and 30% ED acceptance rate is probably just around 20% actual acceptance rate for ED if you discount race, legacies, people who know adcom, multi-million donation families, and athletes. Looking around me now, most of the kids I know who got into top 15 US News national universities ED or EA were people who used legacy or race to their advantage or people who got recruited.
 
Nah, I'd believe it unless it was like an actual important internship for Goldman or something.

MIT is different. I don't how different, but they don't do legacy unlike pretty much every school in the country. Standards might or might not have been lowered for your daughter and that is the way MIT is. They still use affirmative action but truly do have their focus 99% in academics. Its probably different with field hockey and lacrosse though. The lacrosse kids I know who got recruited by Ivys don't practice nearly as much as some of the 4 and 5 stars I've met.

Thing is, I don't see how you get to 5 stars and maintain it without risking academics. Take the #13 in the nation for last year's class. Got recruited by MIT, but I just don't see how he competes with just about all of the kids who get into MIT by merit. The kids I know who got accepted and deferred by MIT recently all started taking courses like Multivariable Calc and AP Physics C in sophomore year and continued to take college classes at the Ivy I live close to by junior/senior year. They have pretty much all won national awards in various STEM competitions too. This is what MIT likes to see and it really doesn't seem possible to train as much as a 5 star does every day while getting those perfect grades and don't even think about winning national awards or college classes.

I know Uchicago does lower standards though for sure.
I am been a lurker for awhile. I have gone through the recruiting process twice now. MIT does not lower its academic standards for its tennis recruits, nor does the coach have any guaranteed slots. Check out the bios on the MIT tennis page. The 5-star freshman was also a National AP Scholar. Looking at the other freshman recruits, there are two National Merit Finalists,a Biology Olympiad Semi-finalist, a National Chemistry Olympiad qualifier, and an AIME qualifier (Math Olympiad).

College Confidential has more than one thread started by a parent whose child turned down an Ivy LL because MIT was his top choice, only to be denied admission to MIT.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
I am been a lurker for awhile. I have gone through the recruiting process twice now. MIT does not lower its academic standards for its tennis recruits, nor does the coach have any guaranteed slots. Check out the bios on the MIT tennis page. The 5-star freshman was also a National AP Scholar. Looking at the other freshman recruits, there are two National Merit Finalists,a Biology Olympiad Semi-finalist, a National Chemistry Olympiad qualifier, and an AIME qualifier (Math Olympiad).

College Confidential has more than one thread started by a parent whose child turned down an Ivy LL because MIT was his top choice, only to be denied admission to MIT.
Yeah, the kid was a national ap scholar.

There are a lot of really amazing kids out there.

But at the same time, there are plenty of kids that got rejected.

Varsity athlete is the ultimate EC, you won't get into mit if you rely only on tennis, but if you have grades and everything up to par with mit standards, it'll give you the extra nudge.
 
^ Oh, I agree. However, there are some posts in this thread that have asserted that it is not possible to be a 5 star while maintaining MIT academic level standards. The purpose of my post was to say those assertions are simply not accurate.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
^ Oh, I agree. However, there are some posts in this thread that have asserted that it is not possible to be a 5 star while maintaining MIT academic level standards. The purpose of my post was to say those assertions are simply not accurate.
oh i feel you, i agree with that.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
I am been a lurker for awhile. I have gone through the recruiting process twice now. MIT does not lower its academic standards for its tennis recruits, nor does the coach have any guaranteed slots. Check out the bios on the MIT tennis page. The 5-star freshman was also a National AP Scholar. Looking at the other freshman recruits, there are two National Merit Finalists,a Biology Olympiad Semi-finalist, a National Chemistry Olympiad qualifier, and an AIME qualifier (Math Olympiad).

College Confidential has more than one thread started by a parent whose child turned down an Ivy LL because MIT was his top choice, only to be denied admission to MIT.
I won't deny it, but I find it very hard to believe that a 5 star was able to find the time to also put in the time to become a National AP Scholar. Which AP exams did he take? Music Theory? Psychology? Or did he take all of the hardest ones like the Bio, Chem, and Physics? If he was a National AP Scholar I'll admit he probably had a couple of the harder ones mixed in, but I don't know how you find the time to work through all those AP classes while consistently playing tournaments and training.
 
I won't deny it, but I find it very hard to believe that a 5 star was able to find the time to also put in the time to become a National AP Scholar. Which AP exams did he take? Music Theory? Psychology? Or did he take all of the hardest ones like the Bio, Chem, and Physics? If he was a National AP Scholar I'll admit he probably had a couple of the harder ones mixed in, but I don't know how you find the time to work through all those AP classes while consistently playing tournaments and training.

He took the hardest ones. The workload at MIT is extremely demanding. A high school student who had difficulty finding time to balance the time commitment necessary to be a 5-star and his AP courses would struggle at MIT. All the students at MIT are required to fulfill the General Education Requirements which include Mulitvariable Calc, two semesters of calculus based physics (which is at a much higher level than the AP Physics C), Chemistry, and Biology. Admissions needs to ensure that the athletes can juggle both the academics and the athletics once they arrive on campus.
 

ZYX

New User
My son plays for MIT. By the end of his junior year: he had earned National AP Scholar, mostly from "hard science" subjects (BC Calc., Physics, etc.); he had taken ACT (earned 35, once and done); was first in class, 470 in his class year. Yet the coach did not guarantee him a spot (was very encouraging, thought).

A few of his 4-5 star tennis friends had similar academic backgrounds; it is possible to do both.
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
He took the hardest ones. The workload at MIT is extremely demanding. A high school student who had difficulty finding time to balance the time commitment necessary to be a 5-star and his AP courses would struggle at MIT. All the students at MIT are required to fulfill the General Education Requirements which include Mulitvariable Calc, two semesters of calculus based physics (which is at a much higher level than the AP Physics C), Chemistry, and Biology. Admissions needs to ensure that the athletes can juggle both the academics and the athletics once they arrive on campus.
I guess, must have been very hard to balance all of that work though. We all know that MIT doesn't just accept students with great stats though. All the kids I know who got into MIT won awards like multiple national science olympiad awards or even intel awards. If they were anything less, then they got rejected. Then again, all the kids I know who got accepted by MIT were Asian, but did he really have ECs that impressive? I'm not denying that he couldn't have kept up at MIT since MIT does have all those requirements that make MIT the school that it is and it is the school that I have the most respect for since every single applicant that I've seen get accepted by MIT does fully deserve it, but I wouldn't think that he is an embodiment of the typical MIT nerd.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
My son plays for MIT. By the end of his junior year: he had earned National AP Scholar, mostly from "hard science" subjects (BC Calc., Physics, etc.); he had taken ACT (earned 35, once and done); was first in class, 470 in his class year. Yet the coach did not guarantee him a spot (was very encouraging, thought).

A few of his 4-5 star tennis friends had similar academic backgrounds; it is possible to do both.
Can a B average student get into MIT if he was a blue chip and/or top 10 player in boys's 18 division ? with coach's help ?
 

Faker

Semi-Pro
Can a B average student get into MIT if he was a blue chip and/or top 10 player in boys's 18 division ? with coach's help ?
B average seems too lenient for MIT even if he was the #1 recruit. MIT isn't like the Ivys where you wonder how some kids are there but then you realize it was because of affirmative action, sports, or some multi million dollar donation. MIT is considered a nerdy(not meaning a negative connotation) school for a reason. If you weren't qualified but had ways to get into a HYPSM school, MIT would be the last one you choose since you'd know you'd die from work when 99% of your classmates worked their butts off not just in terms of grades but also ECs during high school.
 
Can a B average student get into MIT if he was a blue chip and/or top 10 player in boys's 18 division ? with coach's help ?
No. It is a well-known fact among the college coaches that the MIT coaches have little say in who gets accepted. A coach can only help if the student is academically qualified.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
No. It is a well-known fact among the college coaches that the MIT coaches have little say in who gets accepted. A coach can only help if the student is academically qualified.
Basically MIT is the only school like this. I know for a fact that other schools simply need the athlete to be over the minimum set for the school and the coach can ask for the student to be accepted.
 
Basically MIT is the only school like this. I know for a fact that other schools simply need the athlete to be over the minimum set for the school and the coach can ask for the student to be accepted.
I agree. Having gone through this process twice now, MIT was the only school that we encountered where the coach was not granted slots for student-athletes that met the academic standards necessary to be admitted. The coach was very above-board during the entire process and made it clear that while he does give a list of recruits to admissions, he has no control over who is admitted.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
I agree. Having gone through this process twice now, MIT was the only school that we encountered where the coach was not granted slots for student-athletes that met the academic standards necessary to be admitted. The coach was very above-board during the entire process and made it clear that while he does give a list of recruits to admissions, he has no control over who is admitted.
Even harvard settles for a 2050 and 3.5 gpa on athletes

MIT is also one of the hardest schools to be at though, while you can easily lower your workload at an ivy.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Funny how I know a kid who got recruited(not for tennis) by Dartmouth with even lower stats than those. I bet Harvard would settle for less than that too.
What academic stats do you think the Ivy League requires of their international players? I saw that an international player from Brazil just committed to Harvard-ITF of 63 so he was quite a catch. I saw he beat one of the UGA signees twice in straight sets this year. Some of the South American players my son knew had a lot of trouble just meeting the NCAA minimum SAT. Maybe this guy went to an English speaking private school or had an English speaking tutor. I know the Ivy League meets all the financial needs of accepted students-do they cover all the financial needs of international students too? Just curious. Since FASFA is a US government form, I wonder if international students can use it. I just assumed international players got mainly athletic aid or merit aid if they were really smart but if they go to an Ivy, the only aid is need-based. Last year 7 international players committed to the Ivy League, but they were either from English speaking countries or Europe-one was from Hong Kong but I assume that student was fluent in Chinese and English. Of course some of these players could be from the rich families in their country, and their tennis is their way to get in a top academic American school. This year there are two Ivy commits from South American-one from Brazil and one from Bolivia.
 
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