D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Geez, turning a harmless, tennis related comment into something diabolical. You guys are bad..
I force myself to turn away if they look younger than 20. Only the paranoid survive.
Roman Prokes on string
- Thread starter Rabbit
- Start date
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Vinci and Schiavone use modern, heavy topspin strokes allowed by tweener, rocket launcher rackets and poly strings. Never saw Navratilova, Graf, McEnroe hit strokes like that. However I still see some high rec level guys who hit flat and rush the net with success. They are a dying breed though.But why? I don't see any reason to.
I still go to the bathroom the same way I did in the '70's so why should I change the way I play tennis? :wink:
BTW, Roberta Vinci is into the quarterfinals of the US Open playing old school all-court tennis with lots of slicing and volleying. Schiavone won the French Open two years ago by serving and volleying on red clay and beating all the baseline bashers along the way.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Did you see Vinci's match against Radwanska today? She sliced a lot more than hit topspin. She also used the entire court instead of stay at the baseline. It was beautiful to watch.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Watched most of it. Vinci hits with a lot of topspin on her FH and slices her BH. Yes, it was refreshing to see as was Schiavone's FO win. I just don't see it being successful long term vs. top players such as Serena, Maria and Vika. And you can forget about Feliciano or Llodra doing that against the top men. Unfortunately or fortunately, it's just the way it is with sloooooooow courts, poly strings and tweener rackets. If they go back to the court speed of 80's and 90's, then I think we would see more of a balance between S&V and baseline bashing.Did you see Vinci's match against Radwanska today? She sliced a lot more than hit topspin. She also used the entire court instead of stay at the baseline. It was beautiful to watch.
crosscourt
Professional
He certainly doesn't advise rec players to copy extreme versions of pro shots. But he is equally clear that rec players should understand how pros play and do what they do - so open stance doesn't mean that the upper body is open, just the lower body, and he says Federer's serve is a model. This is because the pros have good technique and there is no reason why rec players too shouldn't have good technique. Rec players shouldnt imitate what they think pros do but what pros actually do.
That's my understanding too. Although the article says do not copy the pros, the content actually implies that most people try to copy pro but end up doing something else totally different and incorrect.
tlm
G.O.A.T.
Ya I arm the ball to much, probably just like over 80% of rec players do. I don't get why poly at lower tensions would make me use my body more.
I see below where you admit that the lower tension poly becomes more powerful, I thought everyone here claims that there is more control with the lower tension.
I don't understand if the power level is more with the low tension poly but yet I need to use my body more into the shots. So there is more power now and I need to get more weight into the shot. Seems like i would have more control problems than ever.
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
Lower tension = more power. That is common knowledge as we all know.
When you use your body correctly in a shot your balance is proper and you have more control. You are able to swing in a more relaxed and controlled manner. It is not all black and white on paper, but when you arm the ball like you do in your vids, there is no forward weight transfer, your body is not doing anything and you find you need high tension because you are swinging far harder with your arm than you actually need to.
When you use your body correctly in a shot your balance is proper and you have more control. You are able to swing in a more relaxed and controlled manner. It is not all black and white on paper, but when you arm the ball like you do in your vids, there is no forward weight transfer, your body is not doing anything and you find you need high tension because you are swinging far harder with your arm than you actually need to.
I thought the article had a few good points but overall had a lot of inaccuracies.
1. Open stances are good: you can still hit with your body weight going forward to the front foot with an open stance and it lends itself to quick recover and hitting more topspin.
2. A WW follow-thru is certainly not bad if you learn the wrist is passive thru contact and the WW is just the natural finish if you rotate your body and finish with the racket near your opposite stroke. Yes, if you think pros are using wrist manipulations at contact to execute WW finish, you will have an inconsistent stroke and likely hurt your wrist.
3. Roddick, Federer and many others still use arms up together technique on the serve which is good. Modern pros may get the front shoulder higher with the back shoulder down a bit which makes it look like the front shoulder went up first. But, the arms work together in most serves with the front shoulder tilting up and back shoulder down.
4. Even rec players want to eventually learn to use some upward motion on their serves to generate a bit of topspin. Yes, you can hit effective serves with mostly shoulder rotation but you will hit more spin with a bit of push upward into contact. Get the front shoulder up and a bit of leg push up should be the goal of 4.0 and above levels.
I was disappointed in the article. I think the pros hit the way they hit because it is "optimal" technique and is better for the body and provides more effective results. I for one will still use open stances, WW finishes with a passive wrist, and continue to work on hitting up on my serve. I think this saves my body a lot of pain and provides a better way of hitting.
I think even beginners can learn some of these principles if they have a good coach. A good forehand stroke pattern can be learned quite early.
1. Open stances are good: you can still hit with your body weight going forward to the front foot with an open stance and it lends itself to quick recover and hitting more topspin.
2. A WW follow-thru is certainly not bad if you learn the wrist is passive thru contact and the WW is just the natural finish if you rotate your body and finish with the racket near your opposite stroke. Yes, if you think pros are using wrist manipulations at contact to execute WW finish, you will have an inconsistent stroke and likely hurt your wrist.
3. Roddick, Federer and many others still use arms up together technique on the serve which is good. Modern pros may get the front shoulder higher with the back shoulder down a bit which makes it look like the front shoulder went up first. But, the arms work together in most serves with the front shoulder tilting up and back shoulder down.
4. Even rec players want to eventually learn to use some upward motion on their serves to generate a bit of topspin. Yes, you can hit effective serves with mostly shoulder rotation but you will hit more spin with a bit of push upward into contact. Get the front shoulder up and a bit of leg push up should be the goal of 4.0 and above levels.
I was disappointed in the article. I think the pros hit the way they hit because it is "optimal" technique and is better for the body and provides more effective results. I for one will still use open stances, WW finishes with a passive wrist, and continue to work on hitting up on my serve. I think this saves my body a lot of pain and provides a better way of hitting.
I think even beginners can learn some of these principles if they have a good coach. A good forehand stroke pattern can be learned quite early.
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
Copying Sharapova's backhand could be the single best thing. She does an amazing job of playing defense, block it back at angles until she can turn on the offense. She plays a very strong defense game.
And Stosur's got an amazing kicker out wide. Better than Federer's. I'd more than gladly copy Sam.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Stosur's got an amazing kicker FOR WTA. Better than Fed's? Let's not go crazy.
arche3
Banned
I have to agree here. Let's not get all drunk on stosurs kick serve. Great as it is it is not near federer.Stosur's got an amazing kicker FOR WTA. Better than Fed's? Let's not go crazy.
Are you saying this because of the stiffness of the racquet possibly leading to shoulder/elbow issues? I'd appreciate your thoughts/recommendations for a 4.0 player looking for a little "free power."
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
String at a lower tension. It is the best way and easiest on your arm.
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
Yes, you all are right. Let's be realistic. Fed's probably better, and you all would play better tennis copying the girls' 14 game than pro mens.
Study away...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBovP7Cg4Ec
Last edited:
arche3
Banned
Maybe you would be better copying 14 year old girls lol. Me not so much.
I think my years of junior and college tennis has allowed me to be better than. 14 year old girl even at 45 . At least I hope so. Maybe not. Who cares.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
I would stop play tennis altogether if I had to switch to a two-handed backhand. Nothing gives me more joy in life than ripping my one-handed backhand and seeing my opponent's jaw drop.
Yes, Stosur has a nice kick serve but Federer's is better. I would be willing to emulate Stosur's kick serve but not anything else in the rest of her game.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
I'll take my 1st and 2nd serves over the girls'. However once in a rally, they would kick my butt. Their footwork for sure is 100x better than mine.
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
And placement I bet. I hit with an ex WTA pro a few times and they can put the ball into each corner over and over again. You will never be in position to hit your shot unless your footwork is awesome and you are good at hitting from a defensive position.
tlm
G.O.A.T.
I agree that lower tension = more power, but believe me that is not common knowledge on this site. Many have argued that there is better control at lower tensions.
stormholloway
Legend
I disagree with both of these guys. I see where Prokes is coming from, but I notice a clear benefit when playing with poly. I think it depends on your game really. I don't think I can go back.
As for Bollettieri and Wilander, they're just plain wrong. The pros have the most exemplary technique. They're the best. You should absolutely model your strokes after them. Good technique is good technique. It should be copied. What makes Federer's game difficult to mimic is his great movement and his shot selection. Why would I not copy his backhand, for example?
Wilander exposes himself when he says that both of Roger's arms come up at the same time--no they don't.
As for Bollettieri and Wilander, they're just plain wrong. The pros have the most exemplary technique. They're the best. You should absolutely model your strokes after them. Good technique is good technique. It should be copied. What makes Federer's game difficult to mimic is his great movement and his shot selection. Why would I not copy his backhand, for example?
Wilander exposes himself when he says that both of Roger's arms come up at the same time--no they don't.
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
The thing they are saying is people think they are mimicing the strokes and many times are not. You have to take the time to get lessons and video yourself to make sure you are really doing it right.
Lots of people on here always want to learn to hit a WW finish, and instead they should be focused on setting up their feet and body so when they hit properly, the finish happens as a result.
Lots of people on here always want to learn to hit a WW finish, and instead they should be focused on setting up their feet and body so when they hit properly, the finish happens as a result.
Im interested in trying this, currently i have RIP control 16 in a pro tour and actually quite like it. It seems to be more predictable with more comfort and power than the poly/synthetic gut hybrid i normally use. I also like its tension maintenance. The one think i miss is the spin which although is still good its not the same as when i use poly.
do you have any experience using RIP control and if so what would the difference in power, spin, comfort and tension maintenance be when using poly at low tension?
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
They're saying that as the rec player try to copy pro strokes, they don't do it right and end up injuring themselves. Shoot, watch Nadal copy....Nadal. How many times has he injured himself?
As for poly strings, ...how many rec players use poly til it snaps? Or how many use it longer than the 4 poly is actually NOT dead? And how many has sustained injuries from using poly?
Their claims are with merit. It's just the stubborn rec player that thinks they know it all. Thinking, "what does Bollettieri know about tennis?"
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
Seb rip control is a lot lower powered. It is not great at lower tensions like poly. Takes a little time to get used to low tension and it's not for everybody.
stormholloway
Legend
Has Nadal injured himself as a result of his ground strokes? No.
I don't know. How many?
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Actually Nadal has had bicep and shoulder issues which are probably a result of his bolo forehand. If you watched his match against Petzschner at Wimbledon in 2010, he called MTO's several times for both shoulder and bicep injuries or so he claims.
stormholloway
Legend
His racquet and/or strings could be a factor. Tough to say. If his technique does lend itself to injury then simply copy a pro's strokes whose technique is more harmless.
The point is everyone should use the best players as models for the game. That's why they're the best.
The point is everyone should use the best players as models for the game. That's why they're the best.
fortun8son
Hall of Fame
Try crossing the RIP with a syngut or another multi for a livelier stringbed.
Last edited:
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
I think you've nailed it. The pros learned proper technique which is what the pundits in the article are saying. They go on to say that what the pros do on court is out of necessity. The pro game is predicated on robbing your opponent of time, making them hit a ball in less than ideal situations. Billie Jean King once said that the biggest difference between the pros and the Joes was feet. Pros are seldom out of position. Last night, in the del Potro/Roddick match, there was a perfect example. Roddick hit a sliced backhand that ticked the net and as a result the ball's path was altered. del Potro took a giant step rather than small steps, was overextended, and put the ball almost to the wall. Listen to the former pros commentary. They often remark on poor footwork as the cause of a missed shot. And it's not that the game has changed. It's that they recognize the totality of a shot, footwork being the most important.
Had they the time, they'd be back to hitting off the front foot with neutral to closed stances. I think this makes perfect sense. No pro is going to consistently hit off his back foot. Doing so robs you of spin and power.
You're spot on in your comment on poly as well. I've seen too many guys keep playing poly because it doesn't break. And if it doesn't break it must still be good, right? I mean it works for Prince Synthetic. And almost to a man, they complain about their arm.
I know its supposed to be low powered for a multi but it seems to have more power than the poly synthetic gut hybrids i normally use which is why for me it seems to have decent power. Hows the tension maintenance of poly when strung that low?
Last time i tried full poly was BHB7 and i started to like it more as it loosened up although i ended up cutting it out because i think it'd been in there too long, also the 17 gauge was too thin for my liking
ive tried multis before in the cross and from what I remember the durability was pretty poor although this was with a poly main
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Yeah, the stiff poly mains will slice right through the soft multi crosses like a hot knife through butter. You should always try to avoid hybriding a multi with a poly.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Lower tension giving more power is sort of a myth. Studies have been shown to conclude they don't necessarily provide the power one thinks they are getting in terms of "pace equating power".
For example, if you strung your frame at 60lbs and hit a 100 mph serve, then if we followed the myth, surely stringing it at 50 or 40 lbs one would be able to hit 110, or 120 mph serve for example.
Fact is, you would hit about a 101 mph serve. So yes, the drop in tension gave you one more mph, but human beings aren't sensitive enough to detect a 1 mph increase.
What actually happens when dropping tension, and where this myth began is that when you drop tension, using the same swing path, the ball defelcting off the string bed leaves at a higher trajectory, resulting in the ball landing deeper. The ball landing deeper is perceived as hitting with more "power".
monkey-ranch
Banned
All hail drakulie!
mikeler
Moderator
I never had problems with multi crosses paired with poly mains. The other way around, I'm sure it would not last long at all for me.
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
Drak, I agree. The trajectory is the key for me. It makes the racquet appear to play more powerful though and allows for an easy swing. So its easy to generalize and say it has more power since it will feel like that even though what you are saying is true.
bad_call
Legend
think that thought needs some dissecting.
anyway giving you back your "spinny" board since it reads like the old guy shouldn't try to hit like the pros.
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
Excellent........
BTW, you visiting the GSS Symposium this year?
Cheers, TennezSport
Dead on Drak, great explanation. Would also like to add that the feel is improved because of the lower SBS, so people get the impression of more power.
BTW, you visiting the GSS Symposium this year?
Cheers, TennezSport
bad_call
Legend
could it be that at lower SBS a player feels freer to swing out? (reduced/absent arm discomfort)Dead on Drak, great explanation. Would also like to add that the feel is improved because of the lower SBS, so people get the impression of more power.
BTW, you visiting the GSS Symposium this year?
Cheers, TennezSport
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Dead on Drak, great explanation. Would also like to add that the feel is improved because of the lower SBS, so people get the impression of more power.
BTW, you visiting the GSS Symposium this year?
Cheers, TennezSport
Tennez,
unfortunately, I will not be attending this year. I've had too many tournaments back-to back, which included stringing at Cincy this year with P1, along with my work back home. I'm simply too tired to join the symposium this year, but look forward to being there next year.
Hope you have a great time! Say hello to everyone for me.
realplayer
Semi-Pro
Drak,
I used to have a dunlop max200G. Because i was looking for the right tension I strung it with 22 kg and 26 kg.
When i strung it with 22 kg I actually had a decent serve with speed and spin(My perception but also the perception of my opponent) I even had a few aces.
With 26 kg strung I needed to hit so hard to get the ball over the net and then they punished my weak serve.
Maybe it has to do with the flexibility of the racket but that is what I experienced.
BTW, Off topic, as one of the top stringers can you tell me what kind of string would suit me.
I like to serve and volley and need a good string. There are so many choices now and I was thinking about full synthetic gut or a hybrid with poly in the crosses.
I'm not a heavy topspin hitter but more like medium spin and flatten out to end the point.
Last edited:
Good points. I agree with you about REC players being stubborn. Many think they are a lot better than what they truly are. How they think they are hitting vs how they are really hitting are sometimes not quite the same. As we see sometimes when they link their youtube video here for us to see.
Even Nick B has stated teaching NOT to use the open stance when hitting. He admitted he has been wrong for years teaching that stance to players.
arche3
Banned
Really open stance is bad now? All pros hit open?
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
Open stance is not bad, but look at how many people lean back on their shots and never learn how to transfer their weight into them. You have to have really good footwork to hit with an open stance or you will hit all your balls falling backwards. I have dealt with the issue myself.
When you work on stepping into the shot, you automatically start to transfer your weight more efficiently. A lot of people string tight because they are leaning backwards and therefore end up arming the ball and can not use their weight shift to properly drive it. So you have people with full poly, stringing too high, using bad footwork and arming the ball. that is what these guys are seeing on the rec courts when they travel and most likely why they bring up the topic.
When you work on stepping into the shot, you automatically start to transfer your weight more efficiently. A lot of people string tight because they are leaning backwards and therefore end up arming the ball and can not use their weight shift to properly drive it. So you have people with full poly, stringing too high, using bad footwork and arming the ball. that is what these guys are seeing on the rec courts when they travel and most likely why they bring up the topic.
arche3
Banned
I get that but why does nick b say open is bad? He doesn't teach rec people.
Power Player
Talk Tennis Guru
I think for the reasons I just outlined. Most people don't move their feet well enough to properly use it.