Rome 2017 final: Novak Djokovic vs Alexander Zverev

Djokovic or Zverev?

  • Total voters
    77
Does Zverev have any chance at RG or is he still among "the rest"? I would like to hear from TTW experts who said yesterday that Zverev will learn a lesson from Novak in the Final.
 
Awww, I feel so emotional and a bit weird as I'm so used to cheering for Novak...
Baby is becoming man, prince is becoming king and chrysalis butterfly right in front of my eyes!!
Next #1 handling former #1 with ease, what a symbolic way of winning his 1st master!
Next gen has finally arrived (although in this case, next gen is an army of one haha)
I always knew Z was the real deal and he's now done what older "stars of the future" have failed to do. Congrats Sascha, leaving Kyrgios, Thiem and other hopeful like Coric in the dust, bye bye, thank you for trying. Z has the game, the determination, the discipline and the mental (3 of which KG is still struggling to acquire, even though the talent is not lacking).
Forget about playing the next gen WTF. Z is not a prospect anymore, he is a top contender of today and he's ready for the real thing. Forget about age: unlike Thiem, he's earned his top 10 spot through brilliance, not just consistency. 2 titles this clay season including a master, what a breakthrough 2017 is turning out to be for him.
I see a lot of positives for Novak too. He is recovering form and desire, he's getting there. I had assumed he would regain top form for the fall season but he may do it earlier than that after all. His main problem is he doesn't seem to be able to cope with next gen: both Kyrgios on hard and Zverev on clay handled him easily. Novak needs a coach to help him find answers and adjust his game/tactics vs new kids on the block. But at least, execution-wise, he's regaining sharpness. It will be erratic at first but I think it will hit a groove after a while. I do not think that he's done at all. Nice to see him reach finals again after months of drought.
Now, the crucial question, what does this all mean for upcoming RG?
Imo, this result today consolidates Rafa's status as overwhelming favorite. It is really hard to imagine him failing to get that well deserved decima on his beloved surface/court, especially if the draw treats him well. I do not see a clear 2nd favorite. There are other contenders but they all come with a caveat attached to their name.
- Zverev won Rome , sure, and is improving by leaps and bounds but one cannot forget that he got utterly destroyed in his lone encounter vs Rafa this season. Having a matchup issue vs Nadal is not a minor caveat at an event like RG. It's a huge one. Can he really figure out "the" Nadal from 2nd encounter, coming from such a huge deficit? Not impossible but not a given, especially on a surface like RG.
- Thiem has been the most consistent player on clay besides Rafa but he hasn't shown that he can successfully cross the finish line. Sure, RG could be his first time but would you bet on it? It happens but it's rare enough that it remains a bold gamble.
- One could argue Djoko doesn't even belong to the list but one cannot completely ignore that he is the title holder, that he is one of the rare guys that could be a challenge to Rafa on a given day even at RG and that he is getting out of his slump slowly but surely.

I don't see any other main contenders to be honest: guys like Pouille and Goffin could cause an upset but I cannot see them go all the way. Wawa may or may not decide to troll, it's anyone's guess.

So for me, it's the big 4 again at RG, although those 4 do not include Fed or Murray. Old guard Nadalovic vs new guard Thiemerev. How exciting! Welcome to the new clay elite :) Times are changing, very tentatively but still... ;)
 
veroniquem said:
Awww, I feel so emotional and a bit weird as I'm so used to cheering for Novak...
Baby is becoming man, prince is becoming king and chrysalis butterfly right in front of my eyes!!
Next #1 handling former #1 with ease, what a symbolic way of winning his 1st master!
Next gen has finally arrived (although in this case, next gen is an army of one haha)
I always knew Z was the real deal and he's now done what older "stars of the future" have failed to do. Congrats Sascha, leaving Kyrgios, Thiem and other hopeful like Coric in the dust, bye bye, thank you for trying. Z has the game, the determination, the discipline and the mental (3 of which KG is still struggling to acquire, even though the talent is not lacking).
Forget about playing the next gen WTF. Z is not a prospect anymore, he is a top contender of today and he's ready for the real thing. Forget about age: unlike Thiem, he's earned his top 10 spot through brilliance, not just consistency. 2 titles this clay season including a master, what a breakthrough 2017 is turning out to be for him.
I see a lot of positives for Novak too. He is recovering form and desire, he's getting there. I had assumed he would regain top form for the fall season but he may do it earlier than that after all. His main problem is he doesn't seem to be able to cope with next gen: both Kyrgios on hard and Zverev on clay handled him easily. Novak needs a coach to help him find answers and adjust his game/tactics vs new kids on the block. But at least, execution-wise, he's regaining sharpness. It will be erratic at first but I think it will hit a groove after a while. I do not think that he's done at all. Nice to see him reach finals again after months of drought.
Now, the crucial question, what does this all mean for upcoming RG?
Imo, this result today consolidates Rafa's status as overwhelming favorite. It is really hard to imagine him failing to get that well deserved decima on his beloved surface/court, especially if the draw treats him well. I do not see a clear 2nd favorite. There are other contenders but they all come with a caveat attached to their name.
- Zverev won Rome , sure, and is improving by leaps and bounds but one cannot forget that he got utterly destroyed in his lone encounter vs Rafa this season. Having a matchup issue vs Nadal is not a minor caveat at an event like RG. It's a huge one. Can he really figure out "the" Nadal from 2nd encounter, coming from such a huge deficit? Not impossible but not a given, especially on a surface like RG.
- Thiem has been the most consistent player on clay besides Rafa but he hasn't shown that he can successfully cross the finish line. Sure, RG could be his first time but would you bet on it? It happens but it's rare enough that it remains a bold gamble.
- One could argue Djoko doesn't even belong to the list but one cannot completely ignore that he is the title holder, that he is one of the rare guys that could be a challenge to Rafa on a given day even at RG and that he is getting out of his slump slowly but surely.

I don't see any other main contenders to be honest: guys like Pouille and Goffin could cause an upset but I cannot see them go all the way. Wawa may or may not decide to troll, it's anyone's guess.

So for me, it's the big 4 again at RG, although those 4 do not include Fed or Murray. Old guard Nadalovic vs new guard Thiemerev. How exciting! Welcome to the new clay elite :) Times are changing, very tentatively but still... ;)
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But you still remain a cougar. :)
 
Meles said:
This could happen as with Nadal, but Zverev's form has been even better than his promising start in Monte Carlo. The main difference is Zverev is unloading from both sides since Monte Carlo. He's hitting amazingly hard and with great depth. He won't be as easy to expose.
....

Reasons Zverev might win his first match with Djokovic:
1. Its not his first match with Djokovic. They played exhibition match before.
2. an easy ride to the final so he's not some tapped out youngster; he already owned or was a matchup problem for every player in the top half (save Murray.):eek:
3. did not just beat Nadal in the match of his life; Zverev just botted Isner off the court - easy breezy:D
4. almost has a servebot class serve and Djokovic has not handled big tall servers well in the past
5. has extreme reach and is very hard to ace with his reach which is very different from Thiem. Zverev will get hot on return and break some in this match.
6. vaguely similar ground game to Djokovic that takes time from opponents. Combine this with Zverev having a huge serve and hot first return from time to time and its going to be trouble with Zverev starting in the driver's seat for the majority of points.
7. Nole's intimidation stare down tactics won't bother Zverev in the least. Foggy went crazy in their match and Zverev ripped out to a 4-0 lead in the 2nd.:eek:
8. Zverev trolled Fognini with some impossibly hard ground strokes from both sides at the beginning of their match (Fognini style). Zverev highly likely to out Nole Nole by dominating the rallies from the outset with great depth. Something to get into the tactical mind of Djokovic and undermine his game. Impressive, probably not sustainable, but Nole frustration may happen.:p
9. Zverev will play his best match of the tournament in the final (its what he does) so even if you've watched Roman Zed, you've not seen his best.
10. loves dogs and children and will be a mission against Djoko from whom the elderly, children, and small animals are best advised to keep clear.

Zverev in two sets mainly because he'll dominate on serve and return keeping his own movement from being exposed, plus stellar big match performance.
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Did this last night and this is what happened in this match. Zverev will continue to be a huge matchup problem for Djokovic.o_O
 
mightyrick said:
You know, I really want Djokovic to find his form again. I don't like to see any player in poor form... it can make tennis cringe worthy... But...

The Djokovic fans on this board are so bad that it almost makes Djokovic's poor form worth it. Just to see their bipolar mood shifts go from.. "He is horrible.." to... "He's back! Djokovic 2.0 rebooted! Watch out for the next winner of Roland Garros! He's peaking perfectly!"... to..."Ugh... he is horrible"...

Seeing Djokovic fanboys go into bipolar fits is truly one of the most enjoyable things on TTW.
Click to expand...
Hey now. How is that bad? It's better than making excuses for our favorite player, isn't it? I for one call it like I see it, and he played like a donkey today - doesn't mean he's no longer my favorite player. I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that way. Being a Novak fan has been rough the last year. Part of his excellence has been his consistency... which has gone out the window. Most of us have been critical with his team decisions- and that doesn't mean we're abandoning him as fans. It means that we care. Murray fans will understand.
 
gnana prakash said:
Does Zverev have any chance at RG or is he still among "the rest"? I would like to hear from TTW experts who said yesterday that Zverev will learn a lesson from Novak in the Final.
Click to expand...

I think a QF is well within reach. A SF at best, but it's too early for a title, LOL. Thiem has a much better chance to take the title this year, and I mean that honestly - I place him as second favourite.
 
veroniquem said:
Awww, I feel so emotional and a bit weird as I'm so used to cheering for Novak...
Baby is becoming man, prince is becoming king and chrysalis butterfly right in front of my eyes!!
Next #1 handling former #1 with ease, what a symbolic way of winning his 1st master!
Next gen has finally arrived (although in this case, next gen is an army of one haha)
I always knew Z was the real deal and he's now done what older "stars of the future" have failed to do. Congrats Sascha, leaving Kyrgios, Thiem and other hopeful like Coric in the dust, bye bye, thank you for trying. Z has the game, the determination, the discipline and the mental (3 of which KG is still struggling to acquire, even though the talent is not lacking).
Forget about playing the next gen WTF. Z is not a prospect anymore, he is a top contender of today and he's ready for the real thing. Forget about age: unlike Thiem, he's earned his top 10 spot through brilliance, not just consistency. 2 titles this clay season including a master, what a breakthrough 2017 is turning out to be for him.
I see a lot of positives for Novak too. He is recovering form and desire, he's getting there. I had assumed he would regain top form for the fall season but he may do it earlier than that after all. His main problem is he doesn't seem to be able to cope with next gen: both Kyrgios on hard and Zverev on clay handled him easily. Novak needs a coach to help him find answers and adjust his game/tactics vs new kids on the block. But at least, execution-wise, he's regaining sharpness. It will be erratic at first but I think it will hit a groove after a while. I do not think that he's done at all. Nice to see him reach finals again after months of drought.
Now, the crucial question, what does this all mean for upcoming RG?
Imo, this result today consolidates Rafa's status as overwhelming favorite. It is really hard to imagine him failing to get that well deserved decima on his beloved surface/court, especially if the draw treats him well. I do not see a clear 2nd favorite. There are other contenders but they all come with a caveat attached to their name.
- Zverev won Rome , sure, and is improving by leaps and bounds but one cannot forget that he got utterly destroyed in his lone encounter vs Rafa this season. Having a matchup issue vs Nadal is not a minor caveat at an event like RG. It's a huge one. Can he really figure out "the" Nadal from 2nd encounter, coming from such a huge deficit? Not impossible but not a given, especially on a surface like RG.
- Thiem has been the most consistent player on clay besides Rafa but he hasn't shown that he can successfully cross the finish line. Sure, RG could be his first time but would you bet on it? It happens but it's rare enough that it remains a bold gamble.
- One could argue Djoko doesn't even belong to the list but one cannot completely ignore that he is the title holder, that he is one of the rare guys that could be a challenge to Rafa on a given day even at RG and that he is getting out of his slump slowly but surely.

I don't see any other main contenders to be honest: guys like Pouille and Goffin could cause an upset but I cannot see them go all the way. Wawa may or may not decide to troll, it's anyone's guess.

So for me, it's the big 4 again at RG, although those 4 do not include Fed or Murray. Old guard Nadalovic vs new guard Thiemerev. How exciting! Welcome to the new clay elite :) Times are changing, very tentatively but still... ;)
Click to expand...
You should be confident about Zverev despite him losing to Thiem three times on clay last year. Zed is clearly a better player on hard courts (again despite losing to Thiem this year.;)) Why do I agree with you? Zverev's serve game is up tremendously this year by the hard court stats. Its shocking progress and little surprise that a player who does not handle servebots well (Djokovic) was unable to get a break point today on clay.:eek: Zverev's better serve game will be a terror for Thiem ongoing as he does not handle huge servers well (Raonic and Tsonga stand out, plus Querrey was a huge challenge.) Zverev probably has issues with a speedy player like Rafa still, but he now rules these servebots with his superior return game and play. Needless to say draw for both at RG will be huge and it would be a real shame if they met early (R16 possible:confused:)

I wouldn't throw Kyrgios under the bus because he's been injured lately. Keep Zed away from him.:eek: Despite Z's large improvement on serve he's still a junior class servebot with his serve game. Kyrgios over 71% points won in 2017 while Z up an awesome amount from 64.2% last year to 67.7% this year, but that's still a 3% gap for now.:p

Pouille has been sick and injured this clay season and is an exceptionally dangerous player at RG with full health. Excellent stats early in the clay season and nearly made Monte Carlo final except for being hampered by injury. Pouille could easily get on a run at RG.o_O

Goffin got injured in his last match so he's unlikely to be sharp enough to cause huge trouble at RG. Still don't want him drawing any of my favorites at RG.:D

We pretty much agree on the main contenders at RG, but watch the Stanimal who is trying to jump start his clay season with a wildcard in Geneva. If Diesel gets in a lot of matches he could be rough at RG. I'd strongly favor Zverev over Stan because Stan has no return game and probably would slip up enough on his own serve game. (Zverev owns Stan and Tsonga at this point.:D) Your baby Z with the right draw may enjoy another Rome like run.:cool:
 
I also have a feeling that other youngsters are going to derive motivation and desire from Z's win today. You know, the logical rule of competitiveness. They're gonna feel inspired to try harder.
In form Nadal on the RG type of clay is a different animal though. Good luck to the challengers.
 
@GabeT - "... Sasha ... it is undeniable he has been playing better ... that was not simply due to Novak playing worse.

Agree with you there. Djokovic played to his peak level. Baby Zverev was just too good and embarassed him:p
 
I've been on catch up for every match this week. Just watched this.

What a win for Zverev! :)

Not a break point faced the whole match! Didn't even need to serve it out.
Where Djok was able to bully Delpo, and to some extent Thiem, on the backhand, Zverev hit back with interest!

Congrats Zverev. Not even his favourite surface!

Great week of play too.
 
Meles said:
You should be confident about Zverev despite him losing to Thiem three times on clay last year. Zed is clearly a better player on hard courts (again despite losing to Thiem this year.;)) Why do I agree with you? Zverev's serve game is up tremendously this year by the hard court stats. Its shocking progress and little surprise that a player who does not handle servebots well (Djokovic) was unable to get a break point today on clay.:eek: Zverev's better serve game will be a terror for Thiem ongoing as he does not handle huge servers well (Raonic and Tsonga stand out, plus Querrey was a huge challenge.) Zverev probably has issues with a speedy player like Rafa still, but he now rules these servebots with his superior return game and play. Needless to say draw for both at RG will be huge and it would be a real shame if they met early (R16 possible:confused:)

I wouldn't throw Kyrgios under the bus because he's been injured lately. Keep Zed away from him.:eek: Despite Z's large improvement on serve he's still a junior class servebot with his serve game. Kyrgios over 71% points won in 2017 while Z up an awesome amount from 64.2% last year to 67.7% this year, but that's still a 3% gap for now.:p

Pouille has been sick and injured this clay season and is an exceptionally dangerous player at RG with full health. Excellent stats early in the clay season and nearly made Monte Carlo final except for being hampered by injury. Pouille could easily get on a run at RG.o_O

Goffin got injured in his last match so he's unlikely to be sharp enough to cause huge trouble at RG. Still don't want him drawing any of my favorites at RG.:D

We pretty much agree on the main contenders at RG, but watch the Stanimal who is trying to jump start his clay season with a wildcard in Geneva. If Diesel gets in a lot of matches he could be rough at RG. I'd strongly favor Zverev over Stan because Stan has no return game and probably would slip up enough on his own serve game. (Zverev owns Stan and Tsonga at this point.:D) Your baby Z with the right draw may enjoy another Rome like run.:cool:
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The thing that bothers me for Z at RG is that the RG surface is less favorable to big serving than Rome , so it won't be such a big weapon for him there, imo.
Watch out on grass though. He could be lethal this year. I agree that draw will be crucial, this year more than ever.
 
Meles said:
This just in. Amazing meles stat analysis of Zverev. We have all been asleep at the switch because of Rafa's early shellacing of Zverev at Monte Carlo and his apparent inferiority to Kyrgios at Miami. Zverev has ATG writtin all over him, so this is a big, big match today with Djokovic:

"Interesting comparisons especially Zverev vs Cilic (There is no compariosn between Thiem and Nishikori on clay. Nishikori might still have the game to beat Thiem on clay, but he is much weaker against the field as this year has shown with Nishikori plummeting in the rankings while Thiem has prospered on clay.) They have a similar return level and even this year and last Cilic is still better than Zverev on return, but Zverev is now zooming up on his serve numbers at an alarming rate.:eek: In 2016 on hard courts Zverev won 64.2%; so far in 2017 on more return oriented courts Zverev has hit 67.7% serve points won.
loveshower.gif
Marin Cilic at the same age was just 64.8% for the year. Cilic the last 4 years has been in the 67-68% range. Zverev could do very, very well on hard courts later this year if he continues to improve (a slam dunk at his age:p.) On clay at Rome and Madrid, Zverev has proven himself king of the servebots. He's brought in the serve game from hard courts and on clay he's a class above the rest of the big players on return with his ability to break (like Cilic.) Zverev at age 20, not even in his prime is already set to surpass Cilic's best years and that is where the comparison ends as Zverev's career is now on a trajectory to eclipse Cilic. Kyrgios at age 20 (two years ago) achieved 67.7% serve points won on hard courts. We know of Zverev's deficiencies and how much room for improvement he has in his serve game (attacking and forehand) plus how much better he is than Kyrgios in so many departments. The super servebot is upon us and its not Kyrgios.:eek: On reviewing Zed's stats this morning this is alarmingly good. We have a monster emerging before our eyes this year. Nadal's schooling of a lesser Zverev in Monte Carlo may have thrown us all off the scent. Last year Zverev's stats made a big move up on clay (way ahead of his hard courts) and its happening again.
loveshower.gif
This kid may put himself on the map as a huge RG contender today.:p"
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@veroniquem check it out.:rolleyes: I'd been ignoring Z's stats until this morning because of Nadal debacle, but that was a big mistake.:D
 
Wow, this is a surprising result! I didn't watch the match. Anyone summary, please?

Finally a young player to win a big title, when was the last time this happened? Phenomenal victory for him, it is not all lost when it comes to the future generations.
 
veroniquem said:
The thing that bothers me for Z at RG is that the RG surface is less favorable to big serving than Rome , so it won't be such a big weapon for him there, imo.
Watch out on grass though. He could be lethal this year. I agree that draw will be crucial, this year more than ever.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure why exactly that is the case. Temperature and altitude should be the same. If its cold and rain I agree. I think the Rome conditions were very important for Thiem in beating Nadal too where it played much like the final today. Thiem could hit through the court better and has a big serve oriented game himself (probably winning more serve points than Z on clay.)

I wonder if the differences between Paris and Rome all boil down to weather? Don't they all use the same clay (crushed brick)?
 
Meles said:
@veroniquem check it out.:rolleyes: I'd been ignoring Z's stats because of Nadal debacle, but that was a big mistake.:D
Click to expand...
I sure hope he does well at RG!
I feel like we're playing a game of musical chairs!
Z has matchup issues vs Nadal (and Thiem)
Thiem has matchup issues vs Djoko
Djoko has matchup issues vs Kyrgios and Zverev

Nadal is clearly above the melee but he's also in his 30s, so you never know.

Draw is gonna matter A LOT this year
 
“He served very well. I just wasn't able to get any rhythm on my returns. If we would get into a rally, he would smash the ball from the first or second shot,” said Djokovic. “There is no doubt he took time away from me. It happens. If he serves this well and this efficiently, it's tough to play him on any surface.”
 
Meles said:
I'm not sure why exactly that is the case. Temperature and altitude should be the same. If its cold and rain I agree. I think the Rome conditions were very important for Thiem in beating Nadal too where it played much like the final today. Thiem could hit through the court better and has a big serve oriented game himself (probably winning more serve points than Z on clay.)

I wonder if the differences between Paris and Rome all boil down to weather? Don't they all use the same clay (crushed brick)?
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Yeah, I don't quite understand it either. You're probably right and it mostly comes down to the conditions. Rome is a lot more south than Paris: warmer and drier. Paris in the spring tends to be cooler and more humid.
 
DRII said:
well, we will see which is more likely; my prediction or yours...
Click to expand...

I predicated that Zverev would straight Nadal at wimby if he faced him. You predicated rat Nadal would be get out of the first week and become one of the favourites (implying that he'd possibly win.)

We'll see. Who cares either way?
 
Mr Feeny said:
@GabeT - "... Sasha ... it is undeniable he has been playing better ... that was not simply due to Novak playing worse.

Agree with you there. Djokovic played to his peak level. Baby Zverev was just too good and embarassed him:p
Click to expand...
Not clear if this is meant as a joke of sorts. Hard to tell sometimes. Zverev played very well, his serve numbers seem like something from HC! But Nole is very far from his peak.
 
Mr Feeny said:
I predicated that Zverev would straight Nadal at wimby if he faced him. You predicated rat Nadal would be get out of the first week and become one of the favourites (implying that he'd possibly win.)

We'll see. Who cares either way?
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you should at least in regards to your own prediction. you made it!
 
falstaff78 said:
fantastic experience.

unlike Kyrgios, this guy has ATG written all over him, and I am so happy I was there for his first title....
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I'm not going to pronounce him an ATG just yet. ATG's don't grow in trees.

For now I'm predicting a career like Delpo could have had without the injuries.
 
DRII said:
because everyone (with good sense, which means you weren't included) knew Federer was losing...
Click to expand...

oh really, everyone with good sense was 100% sure federer was losing after taking out djokovic on his 40+ winning streak ?

another one of your delusions ..
 
Zebrev said:
@Meles do you really think Zverev is a contender at RG? Even I don't think that, and I'm crazy, LOL. You might be right, though.
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He's a huge contender if the conditions and draw are right. Statistically Zverev is a clay court player and its probably his best surface so far.o_O

No Nadal in Zed's half and dry/warm conditions would make him one of the favorites. Clay is a younger players surface as we just saw again today. I would say players like Murray or Nadal are a huge threats. Anyone who can return his big serve. Monfils may be in the draw and is another on paper, but he's got achilles trouble and not playing much (probably withdraws if I had a guess.) The most dangerous players for Zverev:
1. Nadal - speed kills
2. Thiem - Thiem has returned Zed well enough so far, but that won't last for much longer
3. Cilic - Sascha is very much a similar player in the stats, but mentally far superior. The one servebot with enough return game to cause trouble and Cilic is in excellent form, but has been falling apart a junctures in tougher/longer matches.:confused:
4. Murray - dangerous first returner, but luckily not getting enough in play to find top form
5. Dimitrov - Grigs has got the reach to maybe break up Zverev's first serve onslaught, but Zed should have him
6. Pouille - dangerous hot returner. A bit sick against Querrey so might be a threat to Z
7. Cuevas - has a big enough serve game to stop Z from breaking and we had Madrid loss recently

Anyone else at the top I think Zed has the jump on and pretty much owns. Of the above 7 Nadal would be the only one you should be shaking in your boots about.:D
 
veroniquem said:
I understand but Z was nowhere close to being a champion last year. Let's see if Fed can beat him from now on ;)
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Maybe he will or won't but comparing this to Djokovic's loss is silly. The age gap between Federer and Zverev is almost 16 years (in tennis terms that is atleast 2 generations later) but still I'll give Federer this year an edge especially on grass.
 
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