Roscoe Tanner's 153 mph serve

[Limpinhitter]

He played from '72-'85, long time ago and he was only 6ft. tall. He retired 31 years ago. I am sure he had a big serve in his day, but I doubt he was hitting 120-130 mph. He had a 13 yr. career, only won 16 tournaments.

Measured immediately after contact (as has been the convention since the early 2000's), I'm confident that Tanner, and a few others (ie: Sangster, Dibley, Alexander), were regularly serving in excess of 130. I am equally confident that big servers from the 20's and 30's like Tilden and Vines were exceeded 130 as well.

 

[dr7]

Measured immediately after contact (as has been the convention since the early 2000's), I'm confident that Tanner, and a few others (ie: Sangster, Dibley, Alexander), were regularly serving in excess of 130. I am equally confident that big servers from the 20's and 30's like Tilden and Vines were exceeded 130 as well.

I guess we are going to just disagree on this. It is highly irregular that someone competing in a sport, any sport, 31-90 years ago is at the high end of what athletes are doing today. In this case you are telling me that tennis players 85-95 years ago were hitting serves 130 mph+ which is equal to what a big serve is today. This logic just doesn't hold up. I am sure if you compared any speed, strength, swimming, throwing or jumping record of today it would shatter the records of the 1920's and 1930's. A tennis speed serve is no different. What you are saying is that athletes, tennis players and equipment haven't evolved and progressed since 1920-30. Everyday, people get bigger, faster, stronger, etc.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I guess we are going to just disagree on this. It is highly irregular that someone competing in a sport, any sport, 31-90 years ago is at the high end of what athletes are doing today. In this case you are telling me that tennis players 85-95 years ago were hitting serves 130 mph+ which is equal to what a big serve is today. This logic just doesn't hold up. I am sure if you compared any speed, strength, swimming, throwing or jumping record of today it would shatter the records of the 1920's and 1930's. A tennis speed serve is no different. What you are saying is that athletes, tennis players and equipment haven't evolved and progressed since 1920-30. Everyday, people get bigger, faster, stronger, etc.

You have misrepresenting my comments. They speak for themselves. In any event, there is enough video evidence supporting my position, some of which I'm pretty sure you are aware of, but which can be found if you look for it.

 

[dr7]

You have misrepresenting my comments. They speak for themselves. In any event, there is enough video evidence supporting my position, some of which I'm pretty sure you are aware of, but which can be found if you look for it.

How am I misrepresenting your words? These are your words," .... In the 20's and 30's....confident that Tilden and Vines exceeded 130". It simply defies logic.

 

[NonP]

Philippoussis served 120+ with a wood racquet despite not having grown up playing with one.

Tanner during senior events had clocked faster serves than any pro on the ATP tour did in the early to mid 90's. Roscoe didnt suddenly add 15 MPH to his serve once he turned 40.

Pros today go for more on their serves routinely now. However in terms of sheer top end speed there isnt much separating wood from modern racquets. Roddick to I believe had gone 135+ using wood while practicing. His thoughts on it seemed to be you could hit flat serves just as hard but you coyldnt get as much spin, and rhqt either way it tired your arm out much faster.

Yes, that additional spin is really why players can serve heaters with more regularity these days. In terms of max potential mph no pro worth his salt is going to do much worse with a woodie than with a graphite or any other type of racquet.

"I think Tanner....165.....170". That's exactly what it is, you "thinking". There is zero evidence that suggests 170mph. The alleged 153 mph is an outlier and it's debatable that is an accurate reading. Really, some guy 40+ years ago with a wood racquet is serving faster than everyone else on the planet in the modern era? Disagree.

165-170 is obviously hyperbole and even that 153 mph is questionable , but there's no question yesterday's biggest servers were up there with today's in top-end speeds. In Tanner's case we don't even need to guess because as @pc1 has pointed out he was out-serving the biggest active bomb-throwers in the early '90s despite being several years into his retirement. And I've heard numerous firsthand accounts from longtime fans/coaches who said Denton (despite his unusual and now illegal motion like that of a volleyball server) served hardly less big than Roddick or Karlovic.

Also there's good reason to question some of the modern serve records themselves. Compare this serve by Dent ("only" 148 mph) with Groth's (164), Karlovic's (156) or Roddick's (155) "record"-breaking one and you'll see why. And FYI we should be especially careful when comparing those DC readings with generally less eye-popping readings at pretty much any other event. I explain why here:

If anything [measurements taken in DC ties are] more accurate than traditional readings which track the ball in one dimension only or at most come from two radar guns. OTOH the DC sensors are backed by phase-array radar called RacquetRadar which allows them to measure ball speeds in three dimensions. That's how the DC radar guns tend to produce readings about 8-10 mph above the IBM guns used at the majors.

So a better way of saying it would be radar guns have never been standardized and we should be careful comparing ball/serve speeds from different events, let alone different eras, especially since the guns used to be placed near the net as opposed to behind the baseline as is the case now.

And @slice serve ace provides a few additional reasons for skepticism here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...dal-in-their-prime.379222/page-3#post-5657924
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...ght-against-ana-ivanovic.508031/#post-8599343

So it's quite possible those 148ish-mph serves by Roddick were faster than his "record" 155-mph bomb or the other top-place serves on the list. Don't be fooled by the numbers. The likes of Dibley, Tanner, Denton, Bobo, Goran and Krajicek would easily be topping 140 and approaching if not breaking 150 mph today.

Probably the greatest 1st serve. I still think Sampras had the greatest second serve.

Yes, it was largely that biggest weapon of Goran's that prompted Pete to admit that his main rival on grass was the one guy against whom he still didn't feel the match was on his racquet even when he was playing well. And even on his 2nd serve there were times he'd be so confident a la you-know-who:

(love Mac's and Lendl's post-ace expressions)

But other times Goran could be wobbly as in the '98 Wimby final, unlike again you-know-who. It's really that combo of unflappability and reliability that made the Sampras serve arguably the best in history. Guys like Goran, Ivo and Arthurs might have surpassed him in practice or smaller matches, but come the money moments Sampras was gold to everyone else's silver.

(BTW I love Goran's form in that match. Unbreakable serves, McEnroesque touch volleys, gazelle-like movement, he had 'em that day.)

I disagree with all of your premises. And, I see nothing jerky about Tanner's delivery. It is a beautiful, smooth, delivery with the classic gradual acceleration typical of great serves. He hits the ball on the rise similar to Tilden and Newcombe.

Heh, that was just another classic Alicia Silverstone impersonation from our dear Doctor Oliver. As you may recall Datacipher used to call Tanner's serve "biomechanical perfection" and the single most awe-inspiring shot he'd ever seen in person. To even think this arguably most effective of all service motions "jerky" is... well, let's ask Alicia:

 

[pc1]

Yes, that additional spin is really why players can serve heaters with more regularity these days. In terms of max potential mph no pro worth his salt is going to do much worse with a woodie than with a graphite or any other type of racquet.



165-170 is obviously hyperbole and even that 153 mph is questionable , but there's no question yesterday's biggest servers were up there with today's in top-end speeds. In Tanner's case we don't even need to guess because as @pc1 has pointed out he was out-serving the biggest active bomb-throwers in the early '90s despite being several years into his retirement. And I've heard numerous firsthand accounts from longtime fans/coaches who said Denton (despite his unusual and now illegal motion like that of a volleyball server) served hardly less big than Roddick or Karlovic.

Also there's good reason to question some of the modern serve records themselves. Compare this serve by Dent ("only" 148 mph) with Groth's (164), Karlovic's (156) or Roddick's (155) "record"-breaking one and you'll see why. And FYI we should be especially careful when comparing those DC readings with generally less eye-popping readings at pretty much any other event. I explain why here:



And @slice serve ace provides a few additional reasons for skepticism here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...dal-in-their-prime.379222/page-3#post-5657924
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...ght-against-ana-ivanovic.508031/#post-8599343

So it's quite possible those 148ish-mph serves by Roddick were faster than his "record" 155-mph bomb or the other top-place serves on the list. Don't be fooled by the numbers. The likes of Dibley, Tanner, Denton, Bobo, Goran and Krajicek would easily be topping 140 and approaching if not breaking 150 mph today.



Yes, it was largely that biggest weapon of Goran's that prompted Pete to admit that his main rival on grass was the one guy against whom he still didn't feel the match was on his racquet even when he was playing well. And even on his 2nd serve there were times he'd be so confident a la you-know-who:

(love Mac's and Lendl's post-ace expressions)

But other times Goran could be wobbly as in the '98 Wimby final, unlike again you-know-who. It's really that combo of unflappability and reliability that made the Sampras serve arguably the best in history. Guys like Goran, Ivo and Arthurs might have surpassed him in practice or smaller matches, but come the money moments Sampras was gold to everyone else's silver.

(BTW I love Goran's form in that match. Unbreakable serves, McEnroesque touch volleys, gazelle-like movement, he had 'em that day.)



Heh, that was just another classic Alicia Silverstone impersonation from our dear Doctor Oliver. As you may recall Datacipher used to call Tanner's serve "biomechanical perfection" and the single most awe-inspiring shot he'd ever seen in person. To even think this arguably most effective of all service motions "jerky" is... well, let's ask Alicia:

In general I am a fan of Goran. I think his talent was immense. Thank goodness he won Wimbledon at last and fittingly it was his last tournament win.

As far as Tanner is concerned, because of his quick toss I'm not sure if the ball didn't reach the receiver after he released the ball on the toss faster than any server in history. Overall however for pure action on the serve I don't think he can match Goran's first serve. As Pat Cash said in that memorable 2001 Wimbledon, you just have to somehow scrape the ball back. Meaning I guess that it was virtually impossible to get a clean hit off that type of serve.

Tanner's serve was kind of awe inspiring. I've seen it in person and it was scary. We were walking around the grounds at Forest Hills one year and my buddy saw Roscoe Tanner walking nearby. He screamed "Roscoe Tanner!" It was hilarious and even Tanner grinned.

I was more in awe of Goran's serve. I have always said if a person was not a good player, but he had Goran's serve, well he may actually have a good shot to get into a tiebreaker in a set!

 

[droliver]

I disagree with all of your premises. And, I see nothing jerky about Tanner's delivery. It is a beautiful, smooth, delivery with the classic gradual acceleration typical of great serves. He hits the ball on the rise similar to Tilden and Newcombe.

And you'd be wrong. There's nothing "classic" about the Tanner serve motion. It's so different then what you normally see, it jumps off the screen. It's a very abrupt and brutal delivery.

 

[dr7]

With that motion, he could serve in a phone booth.

 

[Limpinhitter]

And you'd be wrong. There's nothing "classic" about the Tanner serve motion. It's so different then what you normally see, it jumps off the screen. It's a very abrupt and brutal delivery.

It may be different from the serves that you normally see. Apparently, you are not familiar with the classic serves that were hit on the rise. Tanner's serve is not only classic, but, one of the most efficient and effective shots in tennis history along with such great shots as the serves of Tilden, Mako, Gonzales, Newcombe and Curren, and the backhands of Rosewall and Agassi. Further, that 3 second video you posted looks like it was recorded at about 3 frames per second. Anyone can see a much better view of Tanner's serve in the video provided early in this thread by pc1, above at about 2:44.

 

[droliver]

It may be different from the serves that you normally see. Apparently, you are not familiar with the classic serves that were hit on the rise. Tanner's serve is not only classic, but, one of the most efficient and effeicient

A serve technique not commonly ever seen or used much in the history of the game is not really "classic" in the vernacular. Your examples are the outliers rather then the standard as I see it.

We certainly are 100% in agreement that Tanner and all your examples have very effective or extraordinary serves. I've always wondered why more players didn't experiment with that delivery as it seems to disproportionately throw the returners timing off as it's hard to read relative to more conventional deliveries.

 

[the green god]

Check this out.

S c r e w the serve. How about the perm?

 

[PDJ]

Great serve...... And then he served time...


http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2015/05/former-wimbledon-finalist-roscoe-tanner-arrested-again/54806/

 

[pc1]

S c r e w the serve. How about the perm?

The perm is scary!

 

[TnsGuru]

The perm is scary!

 

[dgold44]

According to Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_recorded_tennis_serves ) Roscoe Tanner has hit the eight fastest serve of all time. Which is pretty amazing considering the fact that he did this in 1978. It's the only serve that's in the top 10 that didn't take place in the last 16 years.

So, I'm basically wondering if anyone have the footage of this serve or know where it can be found?

I was searching on Youtube but didn't find it.

I dont know that is physically possible with wooden racket ??? I dont think you can generate that kind of force but what do I know.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I dont know that is physically possible with wooden racket ??? I dont think you can generate that kind of force but what do I know.

First, have you ever played with a wood racquet strung with gut? Second, Tanner may have used a wood racquet early in his career, but, for most of his career he used an aluminum PDP racquet.

 

[hoodjem]

I dont know that is physically possible with wooden racket ??? I dont think you can generate that kind of force but what do I know.

If you are talking about Tanner, he used a metal racquet.

 

[AllCourtHeathen]

Check this out.

How did I know he would be some red headed cro magnon...

 

[Rabbit]

How am I misrepresenting your words? These are your words," .... In the 20's and 30's....confident that Tilden and Vines exceeded 130". It simply defies logic.

I think what you're missing is that the players Limpinhitter references, Tanner, Tilden, Vines, etc. were definitely the exception and not the rule. I saw Tanner play live as well and it was a thing to behold and as good as any serve today, probably better since the guy on the other side of the net wasn't holding a snowshoe. I would add Kevin Curren to the list.