Well you're the expert. How do they serve with the sun directly in their eyes? It makes me crazy.
Roscoe Tanner's Big Serve
- Thread starter Chas Tennis
- Start date
Well you're the expert. How do they serve with the sun directly in their eyes? It makes me crazy.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Hey I may know somethings. That I never figured out. Super human retinas??
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I tried to emulate Tanner's serve some 3 decades ago. The low toss resulted in a very quick racket action which produced some pretty big serves. However, I don't recall being very consistent with this action and discarded it for a more conventional action. I'm sure that I'd get much better mileage with a Federer serve than with a Tanner serve action.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Toss height measurements at the Mutua Madid Open, 2014.
http://www.tennisgate.com/en/forums...of-the-toss-and-contact-point-of-atp-players/
http://www.tennisgate.com/en/forums...of-the-toss-and-contact-point-of-atp-players/
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Me lefty also. Much prefer Salzenstein's serve over Tanner's. Then Sampras/Federer. For pinpoint: Serve Doc's spring-loaded serve.
youtube.com/watch?v=HrU6C8eilkI&t=77s
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Connors and McEnroe's serve motions were both a bit off/odd as well. JMac's extreme serve action supposedly was cuz of his bad back. Jimmy, at times, would jackknife his body on his serve. On many of hi serves, he would pull his head and torso down quite early. For early lefty serves, I much preferred Rod Laver's action. Another great old-school (old serving rules) serve belonged to Pancho Gonzales, a righty.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Chas,
Great data find on the serve toss heights.
Great data find on the serve toss heights.
CoachingMastery
Professional
Chas, that was a great post. Certainly supports the norm rather than the exception. Obviously, for recreational players, we can see too high of a toss or simply a poor execution of the serve regardless of toss height. But, in my experience, (and John's too, I'm sure), those who have a very low toss, (ie: Tanner), tend to find inconsistency especially in their second serve under pressure, like SystemicAnomaly mentioned. In addition, there just isn't a lot of options when a player has a low toss. As I mentioned, the toss tends to get even lower under pressure. Any variance will demand a change in timing. A high toss, a player can make some subtle swing adjustments, including reaching higher and using some of the downward action of the ball to add a bit of topspin. (Not a lot, but it is there.)
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Agreed. I may be wrong, but I don't recall a whole lot of variety with Tanner's serve.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
If I understand correctly, if your toss tends to drift lower during match pressure, let's say from the usual 2 feet descent down to 1 foot descent, you can make the swing adjustment to the errant toss by hitting it with more topspin (like a falling kick serve toss)?
It looks like Tanner's low toss does not have much room to drop. Since you're supposed to let the ball drop on kick serves, does that limit his kick serve potential?
CoachingMastery
Professional
Yes, if you have a higher toss to start with. Those with a "Tanner" toss, where the apex of the toss is only at the apex of your contact point at full extension or the extension you chose with a particular serve, if THIS toss is lower, then the contact point MUST lower because the ball can't possibly reach the ideal contact window. If you have a toss that is two feet above contact, and you diminish it by a foot, it is still above the contact window allowing you to still reach and gain full necessary extension. If your toss is only has high as the contact apex, and it becomes lower, Houston, we have a problem!
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I remember in the 70s, some recommended to hit the serve at the peak of the toss. Vic Braden? Others?
There is no doubt that the large majority of highest level servers don't impact 'at' the peak of a very low toss. That could be because the very low toss technique is not effective, very difficult to learn, or that very few high level servers had attempted to learn it. ?
For understanding the effect of toss height for the highest level serving performance -
What percentage of players who impact near toss peak reach the highest ATP performance serving levels?
Is that percentage higher than those that toss higher?
Tanner, Groth, Ivanisevic and some other exceptionally strong servers impact near toss peak and have reached the highest serving level. For these servers impacting near the peak of the toss is very effective.
"near peak" has to be defined, within 6"/15 cm of toss peak?
It would be interesting to also plot serve speed vs toss height above impact location.
For now, I'll just spot check strong servers as I come across them:
1) Gilles Muller does not impact near toss peak.
2) Boris Becker tossed very high.
This is an interesting issue without enough data. It's more for understanding the highest level serving techniques than for recommending techniques for teaching average players. .....
There is no doubt that the large majority of highest level servers don't impact 'at' the peak of a very low toss. That could be because the very low toss technique is not effective, very difficult to learn, or that very few high level servers had attempted to learn it. ?
For understanding the effect of toss height for the highest level serving performance -
What percentage of players who impact near toss peak reach the highest ATP performance serving levels?
Is that percentage higher than those that toss higher?
Tanner, Groth, Ivanisevic and some other exceptionally strong servers impact near toss peak and have reached the highest serving level. For these servers impacting near the peak of the toss is very effective.
"near peak" has to be defined, within 6"/15 cm of toss peak?
It would be interesting to also plot serve speed vs toss height above impact location.
For now, I'll just spot check strong servers as I come across them:
1) Gilles Muller does not impact near toss peak.
2) Boris Becker tossed very high.
This is an interesting issue without enough data. It's more for understanding the highest level serving techniques than for recommending techniques for teaching average players. .....
Last edited:
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Why would Dolgapolov not be considered a low toss? It barely drops from its peak, if it drops at all.
CoachingMastery
Professional
You posted some very interesting data earlier:
http://www.tennisgate.com/en/forums...of-the-toss-and-contact-point-of-atp-players/
Having seen a large sample of players who were taught specifically the "low toss" method intentionally, I found that it was far less advantageous for the vast majority of these students for the reasons I cited earlier. Not only did they have difficulty learning to serve well, (low toss created problems for many in the timing and rhythm issues), they had an ever harder time learning to hit effective 2nd serves.
While one or two PROS figured out how to hit low tosses well, they represent such a small sample of top pros with effective serves, I would not necessarily look at it as a criteria to use that toss.
I would identify near peak at being closer to 2 -4 inches. I like 6 inches to 12 inches as a teaching model.
I don't rule it out as possible, just from a teaching standpoint of understanding how such teaching methods work or don't work for the masses, it is a little like eastern grips on the volley. A SMALL number of players can volley well with these grips...the majority don't. And among the highly skilled almost none use those grips. So, the low toss, while possible for a small number of players to use well, it doesn't work well for the majority.
And, as a side note: I wonder if those low-tossing players might have had an even better serve if they had mastered a higher toss. We will never know. But, it is a legitimate question!
The current trend in Australia is to teach to contact a ball as close as possible to the peak of a toss
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I think most players are capable of executing a fluid service motion with a relatively low toss.
The main objection Coach Smith has with the low toss is that it tends to drift lower under match pressure and it is harder to compensate. So if you are able to teach your player not to drift his toss lower under match pressure, it should be acceptable. Although that is a big if.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
It appears the average toss height is about 2 feet above impact. I think I get a better serve when tossing at 2 feet.
The problem is that my toss placement errors rise dramatically much beyond 8 inches, so that is why my current toss is at 6-8 inches above impact.
Please readost number 69
chrischris
G.O.A.T.
Jeez.. what a blast of a serve. He alters his legs midair and lands with the left leg first.. thats a thing of the past , think Becker , Nastase and some others did that to.. makes sense to get the full weight of the rotation of the body into the serve
Anyone recall Scott Carnahans serve ?? he was featured in Tennis Magazine in the late 70s as the guy with the hardest delivery of all time...
chrischris
G.O.A.T.
His PDP Open was not a very swift bat imo. HUGE yoke plastic area cause air drag...
I meant post number 69
Do u ask how coaches describe a height of a toss to students?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
On the serve, however, most top servers will start & execute much of the upward swing with the racquet "on edge". Most of the racquet head acceleration happens during this upward swing. Some time after the big L position the racquet face is rotated to contact the ball. Tanner's PDP Open may have been somewhat less aerodynamic in this orientation. However, he undoubtedly had already developed quite a bit of RHS prior to the final pre-contact pronation/ISR.
Last edited:
Wikipediia provides the speed of his serve of 153 miles per hour clocked in 1978So I do not know whether heismore or less aerodynamic
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I finally happened to find a high speed video of Roscoe Tanner's great serve. (This Vic Braden instructional video appeared as a Youtube suggestion.)
There are 2 clips of Tanner's serve starting at 3:15 and 4:05. There is another at 54:59.
One thing of interest is to examine Tanner's leg thrust. In the 3:15 clip. the legs do not show. In the 4:15 clip the waist band of the shorts indicate his vertical and horizontal leg thrust and jump. But you can also observe the height of his head and its forward motion to get an idea of when and how high his jump was. The camera is hand held so compare positions with reference to the fence or other background objects. Tanner was a serve and volley player and getting to the net rapidly may have been a factor for the height of his jump.
Tanner looks as if he hardly jumps in the vertical direction, an important observation. Compare to other low toss servers such as Groth or Ivanisevic.
Braden mentions that Tanner hit a big serve in 1993. This video was made in 1995. This is a very interesting historic video that bears on many features of the serve, stroke instructions, and what has been learned since. Some things have changed since the 1995, some have not and there are other interesting things to think about. Braden used overhead cameras and, I learned, he used an under impact camera also.
[Note - Research in 1995 by B. Elliott, Marshall, et al confirmed that, of all the joint motions, internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and not 'pronation' produces the most racket head speed at impact. Both IRS & pronation cause the forearm & wrist to rotate. Most active tennis players are not aware of ISR today, 26 years later.]
There are 2 clips of Tanner's serve starting at 3:15 and 4:05. There is another at 54:59.
One thing of interest is to examine Tanner's leg thrust. In the 3:15 clip. the legs do not show. In the 4:15 clip the waist band of the shorts indicate his vertical and horizontal leg thrust and jump. But you can also observe the height of his head and its forward motion to get an idea of when and how high his jump was. The camera is hand held so compare positions with reference to the fence or other background objects. Tanner was a serve and volley player and getting to the net rapidly may have been a factor for the height of his jump.
Tanner looks as if he hardly jumps in the vertical direction, an important observation. Compare to other low toss servers such as Groth or Ivanisevic.
Braden mentions that Tanner hit a big serve in 1993. This video was made in 1995. This is a very interesting historic video that bears on many features of the serve, stroke instructions, and what has been learned since. Some things have changed since the 1995, some have not and there are other interesting things to think about. Braden used overhead cameras and, I learned, he used an under impact camera also.
[Note - Research in 1995 by B. Elliott, Marshall, et al confirmed that, of all the joint motions, internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and not 'pronation' produces the most racket head speed at impact. Both IRS & pronation cause the forearm & wrist to rotate. Most active tennis players are not aware of ISR today, 26 years later.]
Last edited:
ZanderGoga
Semi-Pro
Roscoe Tanner "jumped" about a quarter inch off the ground on his serve. Just as with everybody else who understands the stroke and hits it well, there is no active "jump," just a slight upward shifting of mass because his entire kinetic chain is directed up and into the tennis ball overhead. Anyone who discusses "jumping" as a factor in the serve does not understand the serve, and "leg drive" isn't far behind in terms of irrelevance.
The purpose of the legs is to push and extend the hips. No more, no less. This is why even guys like Monfils with verified vertical jumps in training over the 40" mark lift all of about three inches off the ground on a serve. Jumping doesn't play into it.
The purpose of the legs is to push and extend the hips. No more, no less. This is why even guys like Monfils with verified vertical jumps in training over the 40" mark lift all of about three inches off the ground on a serve. Jumping doesn't play into it.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The legs supply forces to the hips. The hips are part of the pelvis. The spine rests on the pelvis. The leg forces can be applied is several directions: up, forward, tilt, for rotations, etc. The forces of legs and all other joints together can be used to accelerate the shoulder mass for the serve in various directions. For the throw, the shoulder mass is accelerated forward & by rotation of the uppermost body, not much up.
When that shoulder mass is accelerated, if the arm and racket are in a favorable configuration and orientation, the lat muscle & others of the shoulder joint will be lengthened or stretched. In addition, in the case of Thoracic Extension, leg thrust bends the spine and this shortens the distance from the lat's origins on the spine at several locations to the lat's insertion on the humerus. The TE motion results in making stretching the lat muscle muscle easier. Thoracic Flexion might be used directly for shoulder joint ISR motion or for farther stretching of ISR muscles. This last is speculative but video observations on TE & TF are obvious regarding muscle lengths. Two videos shown below.
Leg thrust and Thoracic Extension & Thoracic Flexion. Look especially at the distance from the upper arm to the mid back, it lengthens for impact.
The most complicated part of the serve is the trunk motion, its orientations and biomechanical functions. Consider the lat muscle and its attachments. It is obvious that the lat muscle has been lengthened by the shoulder-over-shoulder and Thoracic Flexion.
This is a little too complicated for anyone to describe in words, especially mushy undefined tennis terms, but I have shown video evidence in threads and posts. See thread on Thoracic Extension and the Serve. I like videos for getting answers as the words are too ambiguous and almost always conflict with the videos when the serve is carefully examined.
Some servers jump high and some don't. I'd expect that a serve and volley player, like Tanner, might well shift leg and body forces so that his shoulder joint mass might accelerate more forward and less up. Compare this to the average server today that rarely does serve & volley.
But I have not studied videos to compare serve and volley jump height to current servers. For first look, Tanner stays very low to me and probably moves more forward. ? That would also accelerate the shoulder mass for the same lat muscle lengthening & stretching reason. That is the first high speed video that I have seen. The Thoracic Extension is obviously significant for the length of the lat at the critical impact time. I have not found publications on this subject, please post.
It's the early time to view clear high speed videos and discuss them and not the time for confident conclusions described only by a few tennis words, recall 'pronation'..............
When that shoulder mass is accelerated, if the arm and racket are in a favorable configuration and orientation, the lat muscle & others of the shoulder joint will be lengthened or stretched. In addition, in the case of Thoracic Extension, leg thrust bends the spine and this shortens the distance from the lat's origins on the spine at several locations to the lat's insertion on the humerus. The TE motion results in making stretching the lat muscle muscle easier. Thoracic Flexion might be used directly for shoulder joint ISR motion or for farther stretching of ISR muscles. This last is speculative but video observations on TE & TF are obvious regarding muscle lengths. Two videos shown below.
Leg thrust and Thoracic Extension & Thoracic Flexion. Look especially at the distance from the upper arm to the mid back, it lengthens for impact.
The most complicated part of the serve is the trunk motion, its orientations and biomechanical functions. Consider the lat muscle and its attachments. It is obvious that the lat muscle has been lengthened by the shoulder-over-shoulder and Thoracic Flexion.
This is a little too complicated for anyone to describe in words, especially mushy undefined tennis terms, but I have shown video evidence in threads and posts. See thread on Thoracic Extension and the Serve. I like videos for getting answers as the words are too ambiguous and almost always conflict with the videos when the serve is carefully examined.
Some servers jump high and some don't. I'd expect that a serve and volley player, like Tanner, might well shift leg and body forces so that his shoulder joint mass might accelerate more forward and less up. Compare this to the average server today that rarely does serve & volley.
But I have not studied videos to compare serve and volley jump height to current servers. For first look, Tanner stays very low to me and probably moves more forward. ? That would also accelerate the shoulder mass for the same lat muscle lengthening & stretching reason. That is the first high speed video that I have seen. The Thoracic Extension is obviously significant for the length of the lat at the critical impact time. I have not found publications on this subject, please post.
It's the early time to view clear high speed videos and discuss them and not the time for confident conclusions described only by a few tennis words, recall 'pronation'..............
Last edited:
low toss pros
easier to be consistent
ball is in the hitting zone much longer instead of dropping faster
less affected by the wind
harder for opponent to split step time
a low toss forces you have to keep the motion relaxed, fluid and fast.
I think the last one is why people toss high. If you have a hitch you have to toss higher. I see roscoe, dopogov, ivanisevic, feliciano all toss pretty low
easier to be consistent
ball is in the hitting zone much longer instead of dropping faster
less affected by the wind
harder for opponent to split step time
a low toss forces you have to keep the motion relaxed, fluid and fast.
I think the last one is why people toss high. If you have a hitch you have to toss higher. I see roscoe, dopogov, ivanisevic, feliciano all toss pretty low
People toss high because you feel like you don't have enough time to execute the whole motion if you toss low. Can you have a smooth fluid motion with a high toss. Absolutely. The staggered motion many pros use is how this works. The toss arm goes - pause hitting arm moves to trophy slowly and then speeds up until contact. This method has yielded some massive serves.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Compare serves one above the other and single frame in this post. Single frame on Youtube by stopping the video and using the period & comma keys. Always select the video with the alt key + left mouse click, other wise the video starts playing. For best accuracy use the same type serves, camera angles, other serve characteristics. You can go full screen and come back down and the video stays on the same frame. Start at impacts and single frame back and forth, comparing most similar racket positions.
High speed videos of Tanner's serve are hard to find, see post #81. Tanner is a leftie. Video starts on slow motion of Tanner's serve at 54:59. Other Tanner serves at 3:15 and 4:05.
1) 54:59 Tanner's head and belt does not rise very much, indicating a low jump.
2) 54:59 Unfortunately, this camera angle is not good for observing Tanner's Thoracic Extension.
3) " Ball is impacted at the peak of the toss.
4) " At impact the trunk tilt and and arm in same line, as seen with many other servers, are there.
High speed videos of Tanner's serve are hard to find, see post #81. Tanner is a leftie. Video starts on slow motion of Tanner's serve at 54:59. Other Tanner serves at 3:15 and 4:05.
1) 54:59 Tanner's head and belt does not rise very much, indicating a low jump.
2) 54:59 Unfortunately, this camera angle is not good for observing Tanner's Thoracic Extension.
3) " Ball is impacted at the peak of the toss.
4) " At impact the trunk tilt and and arm in same line, as seen with many other servers, are there.
Last edited:
yossarian
Professional
I don’t know why you’re so fixated on this when it seems wrong
Use a piece of string as a proxy for the lat. Hold one end in line with the spine and the other slightly anterior where it would insert on the humerus. Keep the humeral end stable. Bend the spine part slightly forward, and the string is placed on slack. Bend it slightly backward, and it is put on tension
Like I said in another thread, the lat doesn’t contribute much at all to thoracic motion. It’s length tension relationship should not be affected much by thoracic motion
Why are you so fixated on the lat? Pec major to me looks like the more logical culprit in terms of your length tension speculations
Since you ignore my posts, I doubt you’ll see this though. Carry on with your endless analysis
yossarian
Professional
Aha
The muscle is also active in moving the trunk forward and upward when the upper extremities are fixed overhead, as in climbing or performing an activity such as a chin up.
The muscle is also active in moving the trunk forward and upward when the upper extremities are fixed overhead, as in climbing or performing an activity such as a chin up.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Leg drive is not at all irrelevant. Andy Roddick was a huge fan of a decent knee bend and a good leg drive to achieve an easy access to power -- with reduced stress to the shoulder.
Studies have shown that a proper leg drive will increase ESR (external shoulder rotation) which has the effect of stretching the internal rotator muscles (which will be released later on the upward swing). We referenced such a study 2-3 years ago on TT. In addition to increasing ESR, a properly-timed leg drive achieves this with less stress to the shoulder according to the study.
We see a similar effect with baseball pitchers. However, since they are throwing in a horizontal, slightly downward, direction, their leg drive is in a forward direction. This leg drive is achieved with a long stride with the non-dominant leg. As they take this stride, the (upper) torso also uncoils toward the batter. This leg drive, along with the uncoiling action, produces an incredible amount of ESR.
With the tennis serve, our throwing motion (of the racquet head) is in a steep upward direction. Therefore, our leg drive and uncoiling also happens in an upward (and somewhat fwd) direction. The effect of these actions is to produce a greater ESR (deeper racket head drop) and stretch of the internal rotators. All with reduced stress to the shoulder -- since the shoulder is not forcing the drop itself.
How much one comes off the ground as a result of leg drive is dependent on a number of factors. If I employ a generous knee bend but my leg drive is relatively slow, I will not come off the ground at all. However, if I start that leg drive a split second later and drive upward at a faster rate, I will come off the ground.
Another factor that dictates how much one comes off the ground is the amount of Type IIa and Type IIx (fast twitch) muscle fibers an athlete has in their legs (feet & hips).
Players are not necessarily jumping just for the sake of jumping. They come off the ground because of the timing and degree of their leg drive. One good reason for coming off the ground is to achieve a higher contact point. This will allow a player to easily access more of the service box -- with a greater variety of angles.
This sort of thing is a frequently seen with badminton jump smashes. Badminton players are dealing with a relatively high net. They often become airborne with their smashes in order to be able to hit downward, at a steeper angle, into the court.
Last edited:
mental midget
Hall of Fame
pretty much. you can definitely improve technique and develop a good serve but for the most part, to get to that next level, you've either got a live arm and a great timing, or...not. kind of like how i've never seen anyone emerge from an improv comedy class any funnier.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Mental,
But every server can maximize their serve at their level with good technique!
But every server can maximize their serve at their level with good technique!
Connors109
New User
Tanner won a slam Australian beating Guillermo Villas and also beat everyone on tour including the #1s from Borg to Connors on tour . He didn't last long ? He had other personal issues which screwed up his career. Tanner found himself in the Wimbledon FINALS and was one up a set away from winning but lost in 5 sets against Borg whom he ripped at the US Open latter that year knocking the Swede out of the US Open in 4 sets.
