Rule check: three person rule + nationals

anubis

Hall of Fame
I'm trying to wrap my head around these two rules, which never applied to me until now (therefore I never cared about them).

I know there's the three person rule: you can't carry over more than three players from one team to another, with the same captain. Right? It applies for the same level: three 3.5s on the same two teams. Or, three 3.5s playing up to 4.0 on the same team.

Then there's also the Nationals rule: no more than 3 players on one team that have been to Nationals, regardless of whether or not they were on the same team.


OK, so here's my question, which is a bit of a quandary. I play with a captain who fields both 3.5 and 4.0 teams. Our 3.5 team went to Nationals. There are a few scenarios:

1. His existing 3.5 team will be seriously dismantled. No more than three guys who didn't get bumped to 4.0 can be on the same team. And, no more than three guys who went to Nationals (ever in that calendar year) can be on that team. This includes himself (the captain). That means basically his team will have 3 core people from the old team, and everyone else will be new. And, since those three people also went to Nationals together, the new players to the team couldn't have gone to Nationals for other teams. Therefore, they'll need all new 3.5 and/or 3.0 players who never went to Nationals, and weren't on any of his teams in the past.

2. His 4.0 team: A lot of his 3.5 players who are bumped up to 4.0 will want to play on his team. Is there any limitation to the number of those players who wish to be on his team? I.e., does the "3 person rule" stick for this?

3. His 4.0 team: A lot of the 3.5 players who didn't get bumped will want to play on his 4.0 team as well for extra competition. Does the 3 person rule come into play for this as well? Is it "no more than three 3.5 players on the same team who have played together before", or is it "no more than three OF ANY RANK players may play on the same team, if they have played for the same captain before"?

4. His 4.0 team: Will also be bound by the Nationals rule: no more than three players on that team who went to Nationals may be on that team: this is a combination of any number of:
3.5 players playing up
4.0 players who were 4.0 last year and went to nationals on another team
4.0 players newly bumped who went to Nationals as 3.5s
4.5 players who got bumped down who also went to Nationals on another team


To put it into perspective, we have a very Nationals-heavy group of counties. Lots of people went to Nationals for 3.5 and 4.0 18 & over. Plus, we had a group go to Nationals for Mixed Doubles. Plus, we had a group go to Nationals for 55 & Over. That's potentially 80 or so people in the tri-county area that have been to Nationals in one year. It's going to make it VERY difficult for a lot of captains to field teams next year.

Jeesh, my head hurts. How far off am I?

thanks!
 

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
I may be wrong, but I thought that the 3 person rule only applied to teams that made it to the nationals. Teams that do not make it can be composed of the same players the following year unless someone get bumped. The way you stated the rule means that every season only 3 people from the last season's team can be on the new team for the new season. I also thought that a team competing at a higher level does not have to conform to the 3 person rule. Reason I say this is because I knew a 4.5 team that made it to nationals (and won it) then played at 5.0. But I could be wrong.
 
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schmke

Legend
esgee48 is generally right, unless there is a section/district/local rule that covers other scenarios, the 3 person rule applies only to teams that qualified for Nationals.

Now, for 2014 the USTA added to the rule that made it a bit overly restrictive in some cases and they have backed off some for 2015. I wrote about the new rule here so give that a read: http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/08/new-usta-league-nationals-move-upsplit.html

However, the OP is bringing up some scenarios where the interpretation of the rule may vary depending on who is doing the interpreting.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I'm trying to wrap my head around these two rules, which never applied to me until now (therefore I never cared about them).

I know there's the three person rule: you can't carry over more than three players from one team to another, with the same captain. Right? It applies for the same level: three 3.5s on the same two teams. Or, three 3.5s playing up to 4.0 on the same team.

Then there's also the Nationals rule: no more than 3 players on one team that have been to Nationals, regardless of whether or not they were on the same team.


OK, so here's my question, which is a bit of a quandary. I play with a captain who fields both 3.5 and 4.0 teams. Our 3.5 team went to Nationals. There are a few scenarios:

1. His existing 3.5 team will be seriously dismantled. No more than three guys who didn't get bumped to 4.0 can be on the same team. And, no more than three guys who went to Nationals (ever in that calendar year) can be on that team. This includes himself (the captain). That means basically his team will have 3 core people from the old team, and everyone else will be new. And, since those three people also went to Nationals together, the new players to the team couldn't have gone to Nationals for other teams. Therefore, they'll need all new 3.5 and/or 3.0 players who never went to Nationals, and weren't on any of his teams in the past.

2. His 4.0 team: A lot of his 3.5 players who are bumped up to 4.0 will want to play on his team. Is there any limitation to the number of those players who wish to be on his team? I.e., does the "3 person rule" stick for this?

3. His 4.0 team: A lot of the 3.5 players who didn't get bumped will want to play on his 4.0 team as well for extra competition. Does the 3 person rule come into play for this as well? Is it "no more than three 3.5 players on the same team who have played together before", or is it "no more than three OF ANY RANK players may play on the same team, if they have played for the same captain before"?

4. His 4.0 team: Will also be bound by the Nationals rule: no more than three players on that team who went to Nationals may be on that team: this is a combination of any number of:
3.5 players playing up
4.0 players who were 4.0 last year and went to nationals on another team
4.0 players newly bumped who went to Nationals as 3.5s
4.5 players who got bumped down who also went to Nationals on another team


To put it into perspective, we have a very Nationals-heavy group of counties. Lots of people went to Nationals for 3.5 and 4.0 18 & over. Plus, we had a group go to Nationals for Mixed Doubles. Plus, we had a group go to Nationals for 55 & Over. That's potentially 80 or so people in the tri-county area that have been to Nationals in one year. It's going to make it VERY difficult for a lot of captains to field teams next year.

Jeesh, my head hurts. How far off am I?

thanks!

OK, if his nationals team is a 3.5 team, then his 4.0 team will be considered his "moveup" up. The moveup team is bound by different rules:

1. Everyone from from his 3.5 nationals team is allowed on the 4.0 moveup team, regardless of their rating (unless double bumped...).
2. The moveup team is not bound by "at-level" requirements (i.e. if there is a rule that 60% of a team has to be at level, that is waived for a moveup team because many players will still be 3.5).
3. The moveup team may not add anyone else from an outside nationals team at any level, including mixed.

Basically, the captain can keep 3 of his 3.5 players on his 3.5 team the next year and can add as many of his 3.5 nationals team as he wants to his moveup team, but may not use the 4.0 nationals players, mixed nationals players, or bumped down 4.5 nationals players.

Does that make sense?

Also, in regards to the statement "they'll need all new 3.5 and/or 3.0 players who never went to Nationals, and weren't on any of his teams in the past", this rule only has a one year horizon, not "never". So, if a player played on his 2013 team that didn't go to nationals but didn't play on the 2014 team that did, he is allowed back on the 2015 team and will not be counted as a nationals player. If a player played on a different nationals team in 2013 but not in 2014, that player is no longer considered a nationals player.
 
OK, if his nationals team is a 3.5 team, then his 4.0 team will be considered his "moveup" up. The moveup team is bound by different rules:

1. Everyone from from his 3.5 nationals team is allowed on the 4.0 moveup team, regardless of their rating (unless double bumped...).
2. The moveup team is not bound by "at-level" requirements (i.e. if there is a rule that 60% of a team has to be at level, that is waived for a moveup team because many players will still be 3.5).
3. The moveup team may not add anyone else from an outside nationals team at any level, including mixed.

Basically, the captain can keep 3 of his 3.5 players on his 3.5 team the next year and can add as many of his 3.5 nationals team as he wants to his moveup team, but may not use the 4.0 nationals players, mixed nationals players, or bumped down 4.5 nationals players.

Does that make sense?

Also, in regards to the statement "they'll need all new 3.5 and/or 3.0 players who never went to Nationals, and weren't on any of his teams in the past", this rule only has a one year horizon, not "never". So, if a player played on his 2013 team that didn't go to nationals but didn't play on the 2014 team that did, he is allowed back on the 2015 team and will not be counted as a nationals player. If a player played on a different nationals team in 2013 but not in 2014, that player is no longer considered a nationals player.

We have a case in our section in which three players from the 18+ 4.0 team which competed in nationals went to a different 4.0 team. Then, a 3.5 rated player on our combined 8.0 55+ team which went to nationals, joined that same team (he is 4.0 early start.) The district made him eliminate one of the four.

He argued that he was a 3.5 on the team that went to nationals, but last I heard, he was not having any luck in his appeal.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
We have a case in our section in which three players from the 18+ 4.0 team which competed in nationals went to a different 4.0 team. Then, a 3.5 rated player on our combined 8.0 55+ team which went to nationals, joined that same team (he is 4.0 early start.) The district made him eliminate one of the four.

He argued that he was a 3.5 on the team that went to nationals, but last I heard, he was not having any luck in his appeal.

As the rules are written, he will lose that appeal. The rules state that, except for a moveup team, any team can only have 3 players that played in nationals the previous year in any league, age group, or level. So a 4.0 team with 3 existing 4.0 nationals players cannot add a 3.5 nationals player (or a 3.5 rated 8.0 55+ nationals player...).

The USTA is considering loosening the rules and this is one of the rules that they are considering changing, mostly because it is stupid and overly restrictive, but as of now, it has not been changed. In MS NJD last year, we had my 4.0 40+ team play in nationals and move up to 4.5 as a moveup team, a 4.5 18+ team, a 4.5 40+ team, and a 4.5 18+ team from the overlap area of Eastern section NJ district play in nationals, as well as a 9.0 55+ team. There were close to 60 4.5 men considered "nationals players" and SIX 4.5 teams in the whole district between 18+ and 40+ (and one, my team, was barred from taking on any outside nationals players from the 3 4.5 teams or the 9.0 team). Do the math. Most of the better 4.5 players in this area were FORCED to sit out this year due to the USTA's harshly punitive rules. People tried to petition before it happened, but I think when they saw the lost $$$, they thought they might want to reconsider.
 

schmke

Legend
As the rules are written, he will lose that appeal. The rules state that, except for a moveup team, any team can only have 3 players that played in nationals the previous year in any league, age group, or level. So a 4.0 team with 3 existing 4.0 nationals players cannot add a 3.5 nationals player (or a 3.5 rated 8.0 55+ nationals player...).

The USTA is considering loosening the rules and this is one of the rules that they are considering changing, mostly because it is stupid and overly restrictive, but as of now, it has not been changed. In MS NJD last year, we had my 4.0 40+ team play in nationals and move up to 4.5 as a moveup team, a 4.5 18+ team, a 4.5 40+ team, and a 4.5 18+ team from the overlap area of Eastern section NJ district play in nationals, as well as a 9.0 55+ team. There were close to 60 4.5 men considered "nationals players" and SIX 4.5 teams in the whole district between 18+ and 40+ (and one, my team, was barred from taking on any outside nationals players from the 3 4.5 teams or the 9.0 team). Do the math. Most of the better 4.5 players in this area were FORCED to sit out this year due to the USTA's harshly punitive rules. People tried to petition before it happened, but I think when they saw the lost $$$, they thought they might want to reconsider.

There is a rule change for 2015 that does loosen this a bit. See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/08/new-usta-league-nationals-move-upsplit.html but here is a snippet from the 2015 regulations.

2.06A Move Up/Split Up: Relaxed restrictions for Move Up/Split Up:
- Teams are allowed to move up an NTRP team level and play in another age group within the same division
- There is no restriction for crossover between Adult and Mixed Divisions.
- Move Up/Split Up requirements apply only to players who participated in 3 or more matches, excluding defaults, for that team during the championships year.
 

frank52

Semi-Pro
OK, if his nationals team is a 3.5 team, then his 4.0 team will be considered his "moveup" up. The moveup team is bound by different rules:

1. Everyone from from his 3.5 nationals team is allowed on the 4.0 moveup team, regardless of their rating (unless double bumped...).
2. The moveup team is not bound by "at-level" requirements (i.e. if there is a rule that 60% of a team has to be at level, that is waived for a moveup team because many players will still be 3.5).
3. The moveup team may not add anyone else from an outside nationals team at any level, including mixed.

Basically, the captain can keep 3 of his 3.5 players on his 3.5 team the next year and can add as many of his 3.5 nationals team as he wants to his moveup team, but may not use the 4.0 nationals players, mixed nationals players, or bumped down 4.5 nationals players.

Does that make sense?

Also, in regards to the statement "they'll need all new 3.5 and/or 3.0 players who never went to Nationals, and weren't on any of his teams in the past", this rule only has a one year horizon, not "never". So, if a player played on his 2013 team that didn't go to nationals but didn't play on the 2014 team that did, he is allowed back on the 2015 team and will not be counted as a nationals player. If a player played on a different nationals team in 2013 but not in 2014, that player is no longer considered a nationals player.


The rules states 3 players can stay together, not a captain and 3 players.
 
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