Rules question

[Dartagnan64]

I'm pretty sure a situation like this has been discussed but I couldn't find the thread.

So last night I was playing doubles and serving. My first serve was out. It hit the back fence and unbeknownst to my partner and I it rolled back towards the receiver. The returner was blocking our vision and it was getting late so we didn't see it end up there. I hit my second serve and the returner moves to return it. My partner sees the ball at that point and calls a let for ball on court.

My opponent let me play a first serve but at the changeover stated that if this was a tournament it would have only been a second serve because it was my ball that caused the let. My argument was that it should be a first serve since the let was called after I had served when the ball now became a clear distraction to us and that the opponent missed his opportunity once he got in his ready stance and I struck my second serve. At that point any let called is replay of point from the beginning which means first serve.

I wonder what the intelligentsa of TT think about this scenario. It's a grey area in that I did cause the let, but at the same point they let me serve the second serve. If they had held me up or called let as i was in my motion it would have been clearly a replay of second serve.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm not sure you're entitled to call a let for a ball that rolls onto a court unless it is from an adjacent court. The Code:

18. Let called when ball rolls on court. When a ball from another court enters the playing area, any player on the court affected may call a let as soon as the player becomes aware of the ball.

But i think if they accepted your let call, then you get two serves because when you replay the point, you always replay the whole point.

 

[schmke]

One might argue that the ball is on their side of the court and so a potential distraction/issue for them, so by getting ready and letting you serve your second serve, they were ok with it and your stopping play after the point started forfeited the point to them. How is a ball on their side of the court that they are ok with a distraction to you? If your calling a let in this situation was allowed, what is stopping you from making this let call during a second serve started point any time the ball isn't picked up and you notice it mid-point?

Now, if you and your partner genuinely didn't see the ball and thought it was a ball from another court that rolled on and your opponent had not seen it and was dangerous for your opponent, calling a let rather than letting them step on it and roll an ankle is probably the prudent thing to do, but hopefully you see my point above.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

I'm pretty sure a situation like this has been discussed but I couldn't find the thread.

So last night I was playing doubles and serving. My first serve was out. It hit the back fence and unbeknownst to my partner and I it rolled back towards the receiver. The returner was blocking our vision and it was getting late so we didn't see it end up there. I hit my second serve and the returner moves to return it. My partner sees the ball at that point and calls a let for ball on court.

My opponent let me play a first serve but at the changeover stated that if this was a tournament it would have only been a second serve because it was my ball that caused the let. My argument was that it should be a first serve since the let was called after I had served when the ball now became a clear distraction to us and that the opponent missed his opportunity once he got in his ready stance and I struck my second serve. At that point any let called is replay of point from the beginning which means first serve.

I wonder what the intelligentsa of TT think about this scenario. It's a grey area in that I did cause the let, but at the same point they let me serve the second serve. If they had held me up or called let as i was in my motion it would have been clearly a replay of second serve.

You aren't allowed to call a let/hindrance if it happens on your opponent's side of the court. They're responsible for that, just as you are for calling a let on your side of the court. Obviously, it's common courtesy to point it out before the point starts, if possible, but if they don't call it, then there isn't much you can do. Typically, in situations like yours where the first serve was a fault, I would watch the ball all the way until it comes to rest and then determine whether or not to point it out to my opponent(s). I'm not sure how both you and your partner didn't see the ball, because you're viewing it from two different angles, so really one of you needs to pay closer attention to the ball. I don't think I've ever had a situation where I lost track of a ball that was lying on the court with an incredibly high likelihood of causing a hindrance. Balls that get stuck in the fence, or go between the pole and the fence links, and some even behind the mesh fence covering, then definitely, but not a ball in the court on my opponent's side that easily could cause a hindrance. There isn't a shot clock in rec level play, so feel free to take a few extra seconds between first and second serves in the future, especially when your first serve is out by a lot and the ball is bouncing and rolling along behind your opponent(s).

Or, as Novak would say: Focus!!

 

[Big_Dangerous]

One might argue that the ball is on their side of the court and so a potential distraction/issue for them, so by getting ready and letting you serve your second serve, they were ok with it and your stopping play after the point started forfeited the point to them. How is a ball on their side of the court that they are ok with a distraction to you? If your calling a let in this situation was allowed, what is stopping you from making this let call during a second serve started point any time the ball isn't picked up and you notice it mid-point?

Now, if you and your partner genuinely didn't see the ball and thought it was a ball from another court that rolled on and your opponent had not seen it and was dangerous for your opponent, calling a let rather than letting them step on it and roll an ankle is probably the prudent thing to do, but hopefully you see my point above.

Seems like a lack of focus on their part in not watching the errant first serve ball closely enough, and then noticing it posing a possible hindrance only after they started the point, which by then is way too late. Watch the ball guys! It doesn't cost a dime to pay attention.

 

[ShaunS]

You aren't allowed to call a let/hindrance if it happens on your opponent's side of the court.

That is false. Any player may call a let on your own court. What you can't do is call lets for other courts.

https://www.usta.com/content/dam/us...iating_Scenarios_and_Interpretations-2018.pdf

Now as for the situation, if it's a friendly match, and I thought someone was in danger of tripping I would say something. If it's a more competitive match and they left the ball there then it's just an advantage for my team. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to use it as an obstacle, and I wouldn't allow them to call a let once the point had started when they left it there initially.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

That is false. Any player may call a let on your own court. What you can't do is call lets for other courts.

https://www.usta.com/content/dam/us...iating_Scenarios_and_Interpretations-2018.pdf

Now as for the situation, if it's a friendly match, and I thought someone was in danger of tripping I would say something. If it's a more competitive match and they left the ball there then it's just an advantage for my team. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to use it as an obstacle, and I wouldn't allow them to call a let once the point had started when they left it there initially.

Didn't you read the OP's poast? That's exactly what they did. He's saying that he's playing doubles and hits a first serve way out and both he and his partner don't keep track of where the ball is, so he serves his second serve and starts the point, but in the middle of a live point they call out to the first serve ball being behind their opponent(s) who did not call a let. That, you cannot do. Because what's to stop you from abusing the **** out of that rule? You could then theoretically claim that any ball on your opponent's side is a hindrance, and not only that but then use it as a cheap way to gain a first serve when you had no right to. It's the same thing with calling your own first serve out.

 

[ShaunS]

Didn't you read the OP's poast?

I responded to his situation in the second part of my post, but your original statement appeared to claim that players can 'never' call balls on the other side. You can call it as long as it's done in a timely fashion.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I'm not sure how both you and your partner didn't see the ball, because you're viewing it from two different angles, so really one of you needs to pay closer attention to the ball.

I didn't see it even after it was called. From my position the net cord was blocking the view. My opponent didn't see it because it rolled behind the guys foot. He saw it after my opponent moved and called stoppage to play. It was as timely as he could make it. Admittedly we all could have paid a bit better attention to it, but humans can be distracted at times.

How is a ball on their side of the court that they are ok with a distraction to you?

I don't know about you but seeing a ball on the baseline and your opponent risking an ankle is very distracting to me. I stop play whenever a ball is risking the well being of a player on either side of the court. I guess if you hate your opponent you can feel free to ignore it. But this was a social match with friends.

Admittedly if a first serve hadn't been offered I'd have been fine with it. I was just wondering where the rules stand when I complete the second serve, the opponent takes a swing and then the ball becomes apparent and is clearly in danger of causing injury. We had two options: stop play for ball on court or continue play and risk injury. The smart choice is obvious.

But I think realistically the rules would suggest either:
a) serving team forfeits point for stopping play on a ball that they hit
b) replay the point as a let due to unintentional hindrance and hence a first serve.

 

[darkhorse]

The opponent's argument doesn't make any sense, if a let is called during a point it doesn't matter whose "ball it is" (whatever that means), the point restarts meaning the sever gets two serves again. Why would it matter if it's a tournament? or not?

As for whether or not you should even be able to call a let there, I think you're definitely allowed to, but I'm not sure I would unless it was right at the returner's feet. It's really on them to check where the ball ended up after the missed serve, and if they don't then they waive their right to call a let if it does hinder them later in the point (IMO). I'm willing to bet they knew where the ball was and didn't think it was a concern. I've tried to get an opponent to move the ball closer to the fence in the situation you've described, and they wouldn't do it. But maybe it really was a perfect storm and nobody knew where the ball was until after the point started, in which case it's a bit petty for the opponent to complain.

 

[Rattler]

Don’t over think it...you didn’t see the ball, your partner didn’t see the ball, the receiver or his partner didn’t see the ball..the second serve was in, and in play..the let was called, replay the point...1st serve.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

I responded to his situation in the second part of my post, but your original statement appeared to claim that players can 'never' call balls on the other side. You can call it as long as it's done in a timely fashion.

During the point? I would say no, although the only exception I'd make is if someone ran or walked behind me or my opponent during the point. In that case or a case similar to that, I could see calling it a let for your opponent's side of the court. Before or after the point I'm totally fine with spending a few extra seconds to clear an errant ball or to make sure anything on the court won't cause a hindrance, but per the rules:

K. LETS
1. Who may call a let?
Only an official or player may call a let. A player may call a let only on the player’s court. (Rule 23)

This would seem to mean that players are only allowed to call a let on their side of the court.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

I didn't see it even after it was called. From my position the net cord was blocking the view. My opponent didn't see it because it rolled behind the guys foot. He saw it after my opponent moved and called stoppage to play. It was as timely as he could make it. Admittedly we all could have paid a bit better attention to it, but humans can be distracted at times.



I don't know about you but seeing a ball on the baseline and your opponent risking an ankle is very distracting to me. I stop play whenever a ball is risking the well being of a player on either side of the court. I guess if you hate your opponent you can feel free to ignore it. But this was a social match with friends.

Admittedly if a first serve hadn't been offered I'd have been fine with it. I was just wondering where the rules stand when I complete the second serve, the opponent takes a swing and then the ball becomes apparent and is clearly in danger of causing injury. We had two options: stop play for ball on court or continue play and risk injury. The smart choice is obvious.

But I think realistically the rules would suggest either:
a) serving team forfeits point for stopping play on a ball that they hit
b) replay the point as a let due to unintentional hindrance and hence a first serve.

Fair enough, and I mean in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. I mean if it's just a friendly social game, then yeah no need to be a stickler. However, if it's more of a tournament league play kind of deal, then that could be a bit of an issue. I mean as long as it doesn't determine who enters the next round robin, then you're not entering a world of pain.

 

[PrinceMoron]

During the point? I would say no, although the only exception I'd make is if someone ran or walked behind me or my opponent during the point. In that case or a case similar to that, I could see calling it a let for your opponent's side of the court. Before or after the point I'm totally fine with spending a few extra seconds to clear an errant ball or to make sure anything on the court won't cause a hindrance, but per the rules:

K. LETS
1. Who may call a let?
Only an official or player may call a let. A player may call a let only on the player’s court. (Rule 23)

This would seem to mean that players are only allowed to call a let on their side of the court.

If I hit a ball onto an adjacent court I can’t call a let...... even if I am trying to be helpful. Guess I should try and keep the ball on my court and mind my own business


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[Dartagnan64]

Fair enough, and I mean in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. I mean if it's just a friendly social game, then yeah no need to be a stickler. However, if it's more of a tournament league play kind of deal, then that could be a bit of an issue. I mean as long as it doesn't determine who enters the next round robin, then you're not entering a world of pain.

Yes, as I said it was a friendly so the opponent offered a first serve and I took it and we played on. If he'd have insisted on a second serve I'd also have been fine with that too. If he'd demanded the point I might have been a bit put off in a social game.

I'm just wondering what an official ruling would have looked like if it was a match that counted for anything.

 

[Dartagnan64]

During the point? I would say no, although the only exception I'd make is if someone ran or walked behind me or my opponent during the point. In that case or a case similar to that, I could see calling it a let for your opponent's side of the court. Before or after the point I'm totally fine with spending a few extra seconds to clear an errant ball or to make sure anything on the court won't cause a hindrance, but per the rules:

K. LETS
1. Who may call a let?
Only an official or player may call a let. A player may call a let only on the player’s court. (Rule 23)

This would seem to mean that players are only allowed to call a let on their side of the court.

No this would indicate that they can only call a let on their court and not and adjacent court. There is nothing in the rule that states a "side". The "player's court" includes the entire court. As such I can call a let for my opponent screaming at me in my backswing but the neighboring courts must play on even if that scream affected them.

 

[ShaunS]

K. LETS
1. Who may call a let?
Only an official or player may call a let. A player may call a let only on the player’s court. (Rule 23)

This would seem to mean that players are only allowed to call a let on their side of the court.

No, it doesn't seem to mean that at all. If you reach any harder you're going to pull something. When read in context, it's clearly distinguishing between the court a player is on and a different court.

Maybe it'll help if I link the 2015 verbiage:

Let called when ball rolls on court. When a ball from another court enters the playing area, any player on the court affected may call a let as soon as the player becomes aware of the ball. The player loses the right to call a let if the player unreasonably delays in making the call.

Edit: Ah Dart responded while I was typing... oh well...

 

[tennis tom]

Hire ball boys--there's loads of people on the dole who would jump at the chance to get off the couch and be outdoors.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Wow, this thread really got off the rails.

You can call a let for a ball coming onto your court from an adjacent court.

You can call a let if a ball falls out of your opponent's pocket during a point or their hat falls off, but the opponent cannot call a let for that.

You can call a let for hindrance due to outside interference, like someone walks onto the court or a player on an adjacent court runs onto your court to reach a wide ball.

I think all players started the next point with knowledge that the first serve was somewhere on the court although perhaps not its exact location. No one can call a let for it absent outside interference like huge gust of wind blows it onto the court.

Is that right?

 

[kylebarendrick]

I think if you are being a rule stickler, that:

• The point was started with that ball near the court
• Nobody gets to call a let for that ball, because it was there when they started the point
• The team stopping play for (incorrectly calling the let) loses the point

 

[darkhorse]

I think if you are being a rule stickler, that:

• The point was started with that ball near the court
• Nobody gets to call a let for that ball, because it was there when they started the point
• The team stopping play for (incorrectly calling the let) loses the point

Exactly, which is why I don't understand the opponent's claim that a second serve was the right outcome.

 

[BlueB]

Everyone can call a let on either side. If they accepted your call, it's the 1st serve.

However, you shouldn't have called a let on a static ball, that was just sitting there before the 2nd serve.

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[Rattler]

During the point? I would say no, although the only exception I'd make is if someone ran or walked behind me or my opponent during the point. In that case or a case similar to that, I could see calling it a let for your opponent's side of the court. Before or after the point I'm totally fine with spending a few extra seconds to clear an errant ball or to make sure anything on the court won't cause a hindrance, but per the rules:

K. LETS
1. Who may call a let?
Only an official or player may call a let. A player may call a let only on the player’s court. (Rule 23)

This would seem to mean that players are only allowed to call a let on their side of the court.

“Player’s court” means entire court, not a side. If it was to be a side of the court, and say a ball came from an adjacent court, but not on ‘your’ side of the court, although it distracted you during the point, can you call a let? Of course you can. Same goes if a ball comes on your side of the court.

 

[Rattler]

However, you shouldn't have called a let on a static ball, that was just sitting there before the 2nd serve.

They can if they just noticed it

 

[Dartagnan64]

Everyone can call a let on either side. If they accepted your call, it's the 1st serve.

However, you shouldn't have called a let on a static ball, that was just sitting there before the 2nd serve.

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I don't necessarily agree with this if the ball is a potential danger. If a ball was right behind me and my opponent saw it and didn't stop play and I stepped back and sprained my ankle or worse, I'd be pretty peeved.

i certainly can see where the rules might indicate that it's the receiver's point but there are some mitigating circumstances in this scenario. No one spotted the ball in a dangerous spot until play had started and the stoppage occurred in a timely fashion as soon as it was seen. I think 99 times out of 100 that kind of thing gets seen before play starts and gets moved out of the way. This was just a rare time where the ball wasn't visualized due to the net cord and the receivers foot blocking the view of the serving team.

 

[kevrol]

I don't necessarily agree with this if the ball is a potential danger. If a ball was right behind me and my opponent saw it and didn't stop play and I stepped back and sprained my ankle or worse, I'd be pretty peeved.

i certainly can see where the rules might indicate that it's the receiver's point but there are some mitigating circumstances in this scenario. No one spotted the ball in a dangerous spot until play had started and the stoppage occurred in a timely fashion as soon as it was seen. I think 99 times out of 100 that kind of thing gets seen before play starts and gets moved out of the way. This was just a rare time where the ball wasn't visualized due to the net cord and the receivers foot blocking the view of the serving team.

Personally I think it's on the receivers to make sure to not take the ready position until you're sure the balls on your side of the court aren't moving. If you're in the ready position that is an indication to me that you're fine to play with wherever the balls may be.

 

[kylebarendrick]

Personally I think it's on the receivers to make sure to not take the ready position until you're sure the balls on your side of the court aren't moving. If you're in the ready position that is an indication to me that you're fine to play with wherever the balls may be.

My position as well...

 

[Cindysphinx]

Everyone can call a let on either side. If they accepted your call, it's the 1st serve.

However, you shouldn't have called a let on a static ball, that was just sitting there before the 2nd serve.

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Mmmm, well, anyone can do anything. So yes, anyone can call a let at any time for anything. I can call a let because I drop my racket or because my opponent drops her racket.

And it's loss of point because the rules don't authorize my calling a let for that.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Replaying the point replays the point in its entirety. First serve. No wiggle room for interpretation there.

Calling a let for a ball that rolled onto your opponent's playing space, they should thank you and accept the let, but I'm fairly certain they can just take the point. Both parties implicitly agreed to play the court conditions when they prepared to serve and receive. Calling a let over those agreed upon conditions is invalid, and therefore the receiver's point in this case since you guys stopped the point. (Which is why you should zip your mouths and let them roll their ankles. Or you do the nice thing and aim the volley at the ball. Either it hits the ball and they have to pick the right ball and return it off of a bad bounce, or they see the 2 balls and call a let; either situation leads to you winning the point because they are not allowed to call a let.)

It is the each competitor's job to make sure their side of the court is appropriate (within reason) for play. It is nothing but the courtesy of their opponents to point out any stray balls that have rolled into a potentially dangerous position (they aren't required to do that). All players should track where the ball is after the serve and return to make sure nobody suffers the possibility of injury (which is why you should not return out-of-play serves back over the net if you can control it).

If you're slopping in keeping track of the ball, you suffer the consequences, whether it's something as inconsequential as losing a ball or as bad as injury. Just don't be sloppy.

 

[tennis tom]

Personally I think it's on the receivers to make sure to not take the ready position until you're sure the balls on your side of the court aren't moving. If you're in the ready position that is an indication to me that you're fine to play with wherever the balls may be.

Me three.

 

[gmatheis]

I'm pretty sure a situation like this has been discussed but I couldn't find the thread.

So last night I was playing doubles and serving. My first serve was out. It hit the back fence and unbeknownst to my partner and I it rolled back towards the receiver. The returner was blocking our vision and it was getting late so we didn't see it end up there. I hit my second serve and the returner moves to return it. My partner sees the ball at that point and calls a let for ball on court.

My opponent let me play a first serve but at the changeover stated that if this was a tournament it would have only been a second serve because it was my ball that caused the let. My argument was that it should be a first serve since the let was called after I had served when the ball now became a clear distraction to us and that the opponent missed his opportunity once he got in his ready stance and I struck my second serve. At that point any let called is replay of point from the beginning which means first serve.

I wonder what the intelligentsa of TT think about this scenario. It's a grey area in that I did cause the let, but at the same point they let me serve the second serve. If they had held me up or called let as i was in my motion it would have been clearly a replay of second serve.

I think this hinges on the fact that it is not a ball from another court, but one of your balls. Once you started play with the ball behind the receiver, even though you weren't aware of it, it became part of the court. Unless it was kicked/moved during the point I don't think you can call a let and therefore since you stopped play the point goes to your opponent.

Had the ball been from an adjacent court, and both of you only just noticing it after the second serve was in play you could have called a let … 1st serve

 

[mucat]

You and your partner were blocked from seeing the stray ball and you saw the ball once the opponents moved. I think it is perfectly fine you called a let. It was not the stray first serve ball that caused the let, it was the lack of awareness that caused the let. If your opponents cleaned the ball, there would be no let. The alternative would be someone lost a leg.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Personally I think it's on the receivers to make sure to not take the ready position until you're sure the balls on your side of the court aren't moving. If you're in the ready position that is an indication to me that you're fine to play with wherever the balls may be.

I agree that everyone should have been a bit more aware including the receivers. What I don't like is the concept of losing a point to protect your opponent from a dangerous situation even if the danger is partially or wholly their fault. It may be the rules but it's a pretty crappy rule if you can't stop play for an obvious risk and replay a point. Especially when the rules allow me to call a let on a ball that rolls to the back fence behind my opponent from another court and poses no risk whatsoever.

But then again the taking of a point for catching an air-mailed ball behind the baseline is pretty silly too.

I guess in the end it goes down like this:
In a social match, call a let and take 2.
In a tournament, say nothing and let the opponent risk his ankles lest you lose a point.

 

[kevrol]

There've just been so many times where I'm serving and I ask the receiver if he wants to move a ball from a previous point or first serve and they say, "it's ok." I've just decided that if they are in ready position I'm serving.

 

[Dartagnan64]

There've just been so many times where I'm serving and I ask the receiver if he wants to move a ball from a previous point or first serve and they say, "it's ok." I've just decided that if they are in ready position I'm serving.

Usually I'm fine with a ball that is 2-3 feet out from the back fence. I'm more of an attacking player so I'm only going back there if you hit a lob.
In my scenario however the ball was on the baseline. That's going to be trouble in a lot of cases.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

OP's opponent is correct. According to USTA rules, the server may not take two if he caused the hindrance or delay.
For example if the server shanks the serve on to the adjacent court or over the fence, he may not take two even if it takes a long time to get the ball back.
If however the receiver caused the delay by, for example hitting the ball over the fence, then the server may take two.

In social doubles, the players can decide whichever they prefer.
But in an actual tournament, the server will not and should not expect to be rewarded a first serve.

 

[tennis tom]

Why the need to take two? How long does it take to say, "You OK with that ball at your feet?" They clear it in an instant and keep playing. It's not like there's a ball ricocheting all over the place.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Why the need to take two? How long does it take to say, "You OK with that ball at your feet?" They clear it in an instant and keep playing. It's not like there's a ball ricocheting all over the place.

In this scenario, I'd served my second serve and then the let was called so we had two balls to clear/retrieve and I needed at least one as I only generally keep two at a time.

 

[Cindysphinx]

OP's opponent is correct. According to USTA rules, the server may not take two if he caused the hindrance or delay.
For example if the server shanks the serve on to the adjacent court or over the fence, he may not take two even if it takes a long time to get the ball back.
If however the receiver caused the delay by, for example hitting the ball over the fence, then the server may take two.

I'm not sure about that rule interpretation.

If I shank my first serve over the fence, I should then serve my second with the ball in my pocket.

If the returner hits an out first serve over the fence, again there is no delay and the server should serve with the ball in her pocket.

The reason we know there is no delay is that (1) players should not clear or retrieve balls that needn't be cleared or retrieved, and (2) players on neighboring courts should not return an errant ball during a point.

Now, if the folks on the neighboring court return the ball and it bounces all over before anyone can control it, then the server takes two.

The Code: "When there is a delay between the first and second serves: • The server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay; • The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference."

 

[CdnUmp]

After a first serve fault, any player on the court may move or request their opponent move a ball that could cause a conflict in the point as long as it's done in a reasonable manner, i.e. quickly. If neither side chooses to take action on the ball, regardless if they're content with or ignorant to the location of the ball, a let cannot be called on that ball and it becomes part of the court on which it lies. If I were a roving umpire and were called to this court, based on the facts presented by the OP, the point would go to the receiving team as the server's partner would not be allowed to call a let on that ball. That's the basic interpretation of the rules. Of course, if both teams come to an amicable agreement and the receiving team acceps the let then the point is replayed. A replayed point always starts with a first serve. Suggesting that the point should be replayed from the second serve is inconsistent with the rules.

 

[ttbrowne]

Bad lighting and still playing with White tennis balls will get you everytime.