Sad observation

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papatenis

Semi-Pro
My last child is now a senior in high school, and probably playing her last year of junior tennis. During a tournament this past weekend, I over heard two girls making fun of another player in the tournament. This girl they were making fun of, is a know cheater since she was a little girl. These girls were making fun of how she dressed, how she played, how she had no friends, how she always stuck to her dad at tournaments, etc. They were really mean in my opinion.
My saddest observation in junior tennis, (10 years) is the kids that are know cheaters are really really ostracized by the other kids. It's really sad. They don't have friends, except other know cheaters, they have trouble getting doubles partners, and they are made fun of.
If someone was to blame, I think it would be the parents. The parents could of stopped them when they were young, but choose not to.

Now that my daughter is going to play in college, I've been told that cheating is worse in college...
 
girls are worse in cheating than boys IMO.. when the boys get older they sort of stop cheating cuz it's more like an honor thing.. a girl I know was playing in the 18s and her friend grew up together in Jr tennis ... when that girl needed a crucial point,the girl hooked her without hesitation .. that ended that friendship,but girls are good at acting friendly and nice and cute even though deep down they may hate the other persons so much..

boys tend to play it out and maybe say stuff like "come on you f^#@king cheater,I'm gonna take this racket and shove it up your ass if you do that again".. a few mama's boys and feminine boys(if you know what I mean) still cheat when they get older but,I don't see it much...

but why do you feel it's sad,people get what you deserve,if you cheat and you never change,you deserve to be ostracized.. everyone has the ability to change and fix their wrongs..

in college there are more people watching matches so a cheater can get away with 1 point after that, the whole pep team comes and watches and really gives the cheater a hard time...

a bit of advice to all parents who have Jr. playing tournaments... enjoy these precious years as they go by faster than you think.. if your kid is not a high ranked Jr... take more vacations together.. you'll remember them more than tennis tournaments ..
 
papatenis said:
My last child is now a senior in high school, and probably playing her last year of junior tennis. During a tournament this past weekend, I over heard two girls making fun of another player in the tournament. This girl they were making fun of, is a know cheater since she was a little girl. These girls were making fun of how she dressed, how she played, how she had no friends, how she always stuck to her dad at tournaments, etc. They were really mean in my opinion.
My saddest observation in junior tennis, (10 years) is the kids that are know cheaters are really really ostracized by the other kids. It's really sad. They don't have friends, except other know cheaters, they have trouble getting doubles partners, and they are made fun of.
If someone was to blame, I think it would be the parents. The parents could of stopped them when they were young, but choose not to.

Now that my daughter is going to play in college, I've been told that cheating is worse in college...
Click to expand...
I wonder if the girl who hooks has had her eyes checked regularly. Seriously! I've notice with my kids that the doctor doesn't test the kids' eyes after about age 10.

This summer there was a special, invitational tournament. No parents allowed. A particular kid's parent demanded to get to go. I don't know what the kid's feelings were but I suspect he did care either way. The parent cited that he had to go because his son had too many enemies. Wow!
 
I was at the BJK National Tennis Center this past weekend watching the USTA Invitational for college players compete. This freshman from Princeton was playing an asian kid from Binghamton in one of the flight finals. He had won the first set and at 3-5 in the 2nd set, double break point and after a long exchange, the asian kid hit a clean crosscourt backhand winner that was clearly on the line. The Princeton freshman ran over and couldn't reach it but proceeded to run to his chair without calling the ball out, as if the point was his and the ball was out!!! Now this is indoors because of the rain and everyone on the balcony saw it in. The Binhamgton coached asked the Princeton freshman, where are you going, the ball was in?" A discussion ensued but the octogenarian lineswoman didn't overrule the hook. Now I saw this as a clear hook as did everyone else and he got away with it, only to lose the set but he won the 3rd for the match. It was vulgar and dispicable and I believe it was intentional.

On another court another freshman from Columbia was playing a lower flight final. This kid is a notorious known cheater and his teammates dislike him so much that no one from his team watched or supported him playing his final.

Hooking happens, the cheaters often get away it and win their matches. However they are known cheaters and are eventually ostracized for their continued transgressions. These cheaters deserve all the scorn they receive unless they change and have more respect for the game and their opponents.

I knew one kid in my section who was a notorious cheater because I think he received way too much pressure from his father to win. However in the 18s, when he realized that he wasn't going to be a pro, he started to relax more and stopped hooking. Now all the kids like him as he really was a good kid egged into cheating from pressure from his father. When he reformed his ways, the kids accepted him and chilled with him.
 
the problem is that most parents know that their kid is cheating but don't say anything because deeeep inside, they want their kid to win. My sister and I went through the whole jr process and its much worst for girls around 12-16s. Once they get a little older its a little better. I as a parent would probably go nuts if someone cheats continuously on my kid. Not even sure if its worth the stress level to play these tourneys
 
Cheating is becoming so prevalent in today's game I really am starting wonder if the parents and/or coaches are telling their students to throw in a bad line call once in awhile, just to try to throw their opponent off. One time, I was playing a match against a girl and she hit a forehand long, I called it out, she didn't like that, so she proceeded to call the next three forehands I hit "out", even though they were clearly in to everyone watching the match. I ended up winning anyway so her bad line calls didn't change the outcome of the match but I couldn't believe someone could make bad line calls ON PURPOSE...

I can't believe that parents and coaches allow some of these kids to act the way they do...I know I wouldn't put up with it if it were my kid or student.
 
sureshs said:
Boys stop it so that they can resume it when they become older club players
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sorry but no..good Jr. tournament players don't become club players.. they'll kick ass on those club players all day long... they just retire and work, have kids and then drive their kids crazy with some kind of sports later.. surprisingly a lot will stay out of tennis..
 
SoCal10s said:
sorry but no..good Jr. tournament players don't become club players.. they'll kick ass on those club players all day long... they just retire and work, have kids and then drive their kids crazy with some kind of sports later.. surprisingly a lot will stay out of tennis..
Click to expand...

not true. theres quite a few x top ranked juniors that are now 35 years old that plays where i live. a few from d1 schools that still hits even when married with kids.
 
downthewall said:
not true. theres quite a few x top ranked juniors that are now 35 years old that plays where i live. a few from d1 schools that still hits even when married with kids.
Click to expand...

yeh but they don't play club matches and cheat do they ? they maybe hit with better players or good Jr. get their exercise in and leave..
 
Most people (and tennis parents) think they have much better powers of observation than they really do. Your mind fills in the gaps in your vision more efficiently than you would suspect. Advanced players generally call the balls better because they have seen more balls land, and have been corrected more.

I think there are many more calls incorrectly questioned in jr tennis than there are actual bad calls. There are likely more children bullied/gamed with false accusations than there are deliberate cheaters. Fanboy parents are egging on this behavior by labeling it justice.

It always amazes me how bent adults can get at some little kid. I know that they are currently selfishly blocking your own little cherub's path to greatness, but encouraging children to ostracize another child over a tennis match? You better be sure. But you are always sure, aren't you?

Get a grip on reality. Tell your kids to play anything close to a line, and to aim a few feet inside the lines. Teach them that retaliation by cheating is cheating, and that their own line calls can be imperfect, much less their vision on the other side of the court.

If more parents concentrated on keeping it a game, ranked jr players might hang around the courts more after they grow up.
 
cheating is never ok in my book, but sometimes bad calls are going to happen.

We have a particular game we use for our juniors in which we give each person a card that has a particular style of game on it. Some will say "run around every backhand" or "always hit cross court" or "super aggresive on every shot" for a few examples. One of the cards we pull out on occassion is the "hook" card. This person intentionally calls close ball out, miscounts the score in their favor, etc. It is amazing how quickly someone that gets hooked on a good shot will lose 5 more shots in a row because of the bad call. We have to teach our juniors to let the point be over even if it was a bad call and request an official if necessary. We don't practice teaching the kids how to cheat but we do practice teaching them how to react to a cheater because I have seen many talented juniors lose a match because they got hooked at 2-2 in the first set and couldn't let that point go.
 
ibeeskeef said:
cheating is never ok in my book, but sometimes bad calls are going to happen.

We have a particular game we use for our juniors in which we give each person a card that has a particular style of game on it. Some will say "run around every backhand" or "always hit cross court" or "super aggresive on every shot" for a few examples. One of the cards we pull out on occassion is the "hook" card. This person intentionally calls close ball out, miscounts the score in their favor, etc. It is amazing how quickly someone that gets hooked on a good shot will lose 5 more shots in a row because of the bad call. We have to teach our juniors to let the point be over even if it was a bad call and request an official if necessary. We don't practice teaching the kids how to cheat but we do practice teaching them how to react to a cheater because I have seen many talented juniors lose a match because they got hooked at 2-2 in the first set and couldn't let that point go.
Click to expand...


good point. i can see some people just break and go nuts after a few bad calls and not able to recover
 
SoCal10s said:
a bit of advice to all parents who have Jr. playing tournaments... enjoy these precious years as they go by faster than you think.. if your kid is not a high ranked Jr... take more vacations together.. you'll remember them more than tennis tournaments ..
Click to expand...

this is great advice. based on my experience, few tennis parents listen to and understand this kind of wisdom.
 
papatenis said:
My last child is now a senior in high school, and probably playing her last year of junior tennis. During a tournament this past weekend, I over heard two girls making fun of another player in the tournament. This girl they were making fun of, is a know cheater since she was a little girl. These girls were making fun of how she dressed, how she played, how she had no friends, how she always stuck to her dad at tournaments, etc. They were really mean in my opinion.
My saddest observation in junior tennis, (10 years) is the kids that are know cheaters are really really ostracized by the other kids. It's really sad. They don't have friends, except other know cheaters, they have trouble getting doubles partners, and they are made fun of.
If someone was to blame, I think it would be the parents. The parents could of stopped them when they were young, but choose not to.

Now that my daughter is going to play in college, I've been told that cheating is worse in college...
Click to expand...

Glad this cheater didnt have to hang out with these 2 girls that were making fun of her ,how she dressed ,how she played ,ect who is worse the cheater or the "crappy character girls" either way all seem to be a sad bunch and yes we can blame the parents for the both.
 
Wait a minute, are ^you^ being facetious?

Kidding.
Of course, cheaters need to be dealt with, but if they are ostracized, the cheating becomes their shtick....and it's them against the world, which is a bigger problem.

They need compassion and honesty. They need to be earnestly told they cheat and that cheating is no way to actually win. They are literally cheating themselves out of good tennis. When they get to a good level [DI college tennis or a junior national tournaments] with officials on the court, they will be in huge trouble.

Play clean, play well.
 
slice bh compliment said:
Wait a minute, are ^you^ being facetious?

Kidding.
Of course, cheaters need to be dealt with, but if they are ostracized, the cheating becomes their shtick....and it's them against the world, which is a bigger problem.

They need compassion and honesty. They need to be earnestly told they cheat and that cheating is no way to actually win. They are literally cheating themselves out of good tennis. When they get to a good level [DI college tennis or a junior national tournaments] with officials on the court, they will be in huge trouble.

Play clean, play well.
Click to expand...

Cheating is the most exasperating and anguishing problem in junior tournament tennis. From all I have seen in the last 8 years, cheaters sometimes get better as they grow up and realize that winning at all cost isn't as important as they once had thought when they where younger and pushed by parents who condoned cheating. However in certain stubborn cases, cheaters have remained cheaters and nothing could change them. I have seen some of the most blatant well known cheaters get recruited to fine schools such as Duke and Notre Dame. So their lesson learned is that cheating works and got them into great schools and they won't change their ways. Some college coaches want to win so badly that they will recruit known cheaters. Trust me, these kids where well known to cheat throughout their junior careers so it was no mystery. In the curious case of the Ivy freshman at Columbia, he was dropped as a recruit at a number of other Ivys when coaches checked around about his play and found out about his dubious character. In fact at one Ivy, an existing team player threatened to quit the team if he attended and played on the same team! So cheaters should be aware that their recruiting options can be short circuited if their dubious reputation becomes unveiled to prospective coaches. I don't think empathy, honesty and compassion from outsiders does anything to change cheaters. Moral character should be taught at home and sometimes they are taught the wrong thing.
 
T10s747 said:
... I don't think empathy, honesty and compassion from outsiders does anything to change cheaters. Moral character should be taught at home and sometimes they are taught the wrong thing.
Click to expand...

I do, and it needs to come from the coach, the family and the friends of the cheater. It can even come from opponents and strangers. In fact, honesty, compassion and frank talk about integrity can have a huge impact from a peer who is not afraid to speak the truth.

Great post re: college tennis. In my day, known hooks straightened up in college. They had to - there were officials and spectators. Sad that coaches look the other way. Very sad.
 
slice bh compliment said:
I do, and it needs to come from the coach, the family and the friends of the cheater. It can even come from opponents and strangers. In fact, honesty, compassion and frank talk about integrity can have a huge impact from a peer who is not afraid to speak the truth.

Great post re: college tennis. In my day, known hooks straightened up in college. They had to - there were officials and spectators. Sad that coaches look the other way. Very sad.
Click to expand...

Well, this same kid hooked someone blind at the clay court 18s a year ago. During a rain delay, a FL coach told him and his mom in no uncertain terms that his continued hooking is a good reason why he couldn't accept him as one of his players to teach. He also told him that the 15 or so players and parents saw what he saw which was of him hooking blatantly on break point to get the break. And that he would probably not be able to play for any school that these players would end up. The next day, that same kid was overruled 3 times but he won the match. The linesman gave him an honest fatherly 20 minutes of why he needs to show sportsmanship and fair play. He apologized and said he was sorry. Then he kept cheating throughout the tournament and made the linesman look like a fool. He didn't and wouldn't change and two other Ivys told him that week that they have no interest when he tried to get recruited. So his reputation followed him to his detriment. He deserves all of that.
 
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So that kid ends up being a 'hook' at any college program that'll have him. He will wish someone had gotten a hold of him early and had told it to him straight. That official's 20 minute dissertation did not do any good? That's sad. Where the heck are the parents?

This should and could have been handled properly, with honesty back in the 14s. The kid's probably a skilled player. Just not a good one, because he needs to cheat to win. He sees it as survival. He probably thinks he is the good guy because somewhere along the line, he was not taught integrity.

I would rather my kids live their sporting lives with integrity and have half the wins of a cheater. In the long run, they will run circles around this poor child.

EDIT:
Okay, here's a quick story about the most notable 'hook' from my era of juniors who was once was suspended from USTA tournaments. Very talented player. Ended up playing at an Ivy. Was a known hook still. Did not do well at all in satellites. Got into business. Not sure how he did, but I recently heard he's divorced. His wife cheated on him.

That's sad, too.
 
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slice bh compliment said:
So that kid ends up being a 'hook' at any college program that'll have him. He will wish someone had gotten a hold of him early and had told it to him straight. That official's 20 minute dissertation did not do any good? That's sad. Where the heck are the parents?

This should and could have been handled properly, with honesty back in the 14s. The kid's probably a skilled player. Just not a good one, because he needs to cheat to win. He sees it as survival. He probably thinks he is the good guy because somewhere along the line, he was not taught integrity.

I would rather my kids live their sporting lives with integrity and have half the wins of a cheater. In the long run, they will run circles around this poor child.

EDIT:
Okay, here's a quick story about the most notable 'hook' from my era of juniors who was once was suspended from USTA tournaments. Very talented player. Ended up playing at an Ivy. Was a known hook still. Did not do well at all in satellites. Got into business. Not sure how he did, but I recently heard he's divorced. His wife cheated on him.

That's sad, too.
Click to expand...
The irony...
 
Yeah, this stuff writes itself.
I think kids ought to know how really true it is what developmental coaches say....that everyone wins if they try hard and compete like gentlemen and ladies. That the only losers are the ones who do not play with integrity.

No junior player, no matter how hungry to please a coach or a parent wants to catch his wife cheating on him in about ten or fifteen years.
Granted some have no conscience, but that's just wrong enough to get through to most teenagers.

It's like when you tell a teenager about the genitalia-shrinking powers of the 'roid. They cringe. That kid will not be reaching for the needle.

Honesty. The Golden Rule. Karma/Dharma if they are from the eastern religions. If that doesn't get 'em, fear. But honesty first. Then maybe some shawarma if they like middle eastern food.
 
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I mean compassion, not in a 'let it go' way. I mean compassion like honesty. Telling them the truth, in love, human being to human being. Tough love, yeah. Just not sinking to their level. I think that is important.

If the cheaters are treated badly, then they become the good guy and we know that's not the truth.
 
papatenis said:
My last child is now a senior in high school, and probably playing her last year of junior tennis. During a tournament this past weekend, I over heard two girls making fun of another player in the tournament. This girl they were making fun of, is a know cheater since she was a little girl. These girls were making fun of how she dressed, how she played, how she had no friends, how she always stuck to her dad at tournaments, etc. They were really mean in my opinion.
My saddest observation in junior tennis, (10 years) is the kids that are know cheaters are really really ostracized by the other kids. It's really sad. They don't have friends, except other know cheaters, they have trouble getting doubles partners, and they are made fun of.
If someone was to blame, I think it would be the parents. The parents could of stopped them when they were young, but choose not to.

Now that my daughter is going to play in college, I've been told that cheating is worse in college...
Click to expand...

Yes, cheaters deserve failure. They deserve to learn from their mistakes. They do not deserve "MEAN GIRL" treatment.
 
Yes! The penalty for cheating is:
tar and feathers, the stocks, a public flogging, 40 lashes with a mace, Mean Girl treatment, silent treatment. waterboarding, a tattoo of the words "small penis'' on the forehead of the known male hook. And that's for a footfault.
Bad linecalls: crucifixion.

The message I'm trying to get across is that the jury is often as corrupt, smug and self-righteous as the perpetrator.
 
slice bh compliment said:
So that kid ends up being a 'hook' at any college program that'll have him. That official's 20 minute dissertation did not do any good? That's sad. Where the heck are the parents?
Click to expand...

While the FL coach was dressing him down for blatantly hooking on break point, his mother was denying that the ball was in!!! As in most cases of stubborn cheating, there is denial by the parent that their kid is cheating. In fact, the parent condones the cheating because she too wants him to win maybe more than he does. Now he's enrolled in a great school being ostracized by his own teammates and making the team miserable. Sympathy? NO, he dug his own grave and this is his just dessert. The Ivys are a great league for tennis where everyone knows each other and generally competes with good sportsmanship. I've seen the coaches generally shake the hands of the opposing player after the matches if they are on court. This kid doesn't fit into this concept.
 
In my opinion, USTA needs to address gamesmanship within the junior tennis ranks. I believe they should enforce a firm, zero tolerance policy for any level of gamesmanship -- which includes wining, taunting, cheating, etc...

There is NO PLACE for "Come Ons" or celebrations when your opponent hits an unforced error. In my opinion, this should be a point penalty, followed by a game penalty, followed by a default. No warnings.

Se la vie.
 
chalkflewup said:
In my opinion, USTA needs to address gamesmanship within the junior tennis ranks. I believe they should enforce a firm, zero tolerance policy for any level of gamesmanship -- which includes wining, taunting, cheating, etc...

There is NO PLACE for "Come Ons" or celebrations when your opponent hits an unforced error. In my opinion, this should be a point penalty, followed by a game penalty, followed by a default. No warnings.

Se la vie.
Click to expand...

Thats a fine idea but how do you enforce it? The vast majority of tournaments don't have the staffing to do much as it is now.
 
TennisCoachFLA said:
Thats a fine idea but how do you enforce it? The vast majority of tournaments don't have the staffing to do much as it is now.
Click to expand...

True. Here's something the Southwest is trying to implement. Not sure this is the best way, as there could be bias. Haven't heard yet how many have volunteered for this task:

"Court Monitors
If you would be willing to serve as a monitor, please sign in at the tournament desk at the site. Instructions will be available at the tournament site on the duties of the court monitor. Court monitors will be place on a court at the discretion of a tournament official.

Players will start all matches in good faith and cannot ask for a court monitor prior to match
A court monitor will be assigned for the completion of a set in progress MAX
Court monitors are not certified officials but assume limited duties set by the tournament referee.

Court Monitor Duties:
1. Monitor the match
2. Keep score along with the players
3. Ask players to call out score when not doing so
4.Stop play when they observe a code violation (racquet abuse ball abuse unsportsmanlike conduct, etc.) and seek assistance from the Referee or other official
5. Send for a certified official if there is a question of rule interpretation
6. Overrule mistakes in line calls when authorized to do so by tournament referee

If you would be willing to serve as a monitor, please sign in at the tournament desk at the site you are at. Instructions will be available at the tournament site on the duties of the court monitor.

Our hope that Parents AND the Boys’ & Girls 18s (yes you to) would be willing to help a little."
 
chalkflewup said:
In my opinion, USTA needs to address gamesmanship within the junior tennis ranks. I believe they should enforce a firm, zero tolerance policy for any level of gamesmanship -- which includes wining, taunting, cheating, etc...

There is NO PLACE for "Come Ons" or celebrations when your opponent hits an unforced error. In my opinion, this should be a point penalty, followed by a game penalty, followed by a default. No warnings.

Se la vie.
Click to expand...


stupid idea, tennis is a mental game, define unforced error...this kind of a rule can be used to discriminate against people that is on the wrong side of the official.
cant take someone saying come on on the other side of the net you dont need to be playing competitive sports. u think nobody talks trash in basketball? come on now, americans are supposed to be stronger then that
 
cmb said:
stupid idea, tennis is a mental game, define unforced error...this kind of a rule can be used to discriminate against people that is on the wrong side of the official.
cant take someone saying come on on the other side of the net you dont need to be playing competitive sports. u think nobody talks trash in basketball? come on now, americans are supposed to be stronger then that
Click to expand...

Introducing and enforcing R-E-S-P-E-C-T into the game at an early stage is not a stupid idea. If you condone "talking trash" in our sport my friend, then you are part of the problem.

Screaming "Come On" and giving the Jimbo fist pump when your opponent hits a double fault is just one example. You are penalized if you taunt in the NFL and they dont allow it in college football either. Junior tennis should be no different. Period. Exclamation point.

This isn't the NBA - thank goodness.
 
chalkflewup said:
Introducing and enforcing R-E-S-P-E-C-T into the game at an early stage is not a stupid idea. If you condone "talking trash" in our sport my friend, then you are part of the problem.

Screaming "Come On" and giving the Jimbo fist pump when your opponent hits a double fault is just one example. You are penalized if you taunt in the NFL and they dont allow it in college football either. Junior tennis should be no different. Period. Exclamation point.

This isn't the NBA - thank goodness.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on your thoughts but the a kid that does that has parents that are doing a horrible job of raising their kid , my son when he was younger was without a doubt a hot head on the rise ,he was great off the court but when he headed on the court he felt he could start talking trash here and there after getting yanked out of a few matches he changed that.

there isn't always and official around so as a parent you need to monitor your own child and if need be do what i did during a finals 2x he was in the lead and i told him to pack his rackets. once again i agree 0 tolerance
 
TnsMan2 said:
I agree with you on your thoughts but the a kid that does that has parents that are doing a horrible job of raising their kid , my son when he was younger was without a doubt a hot head on the rise ,he was great off the court but when he headed on the court he felt he could start talking trash here and there after getting yanked out of a few matches he changed that.

there isn't always and official around so as a parent you need to monitor your own child and if need be do what i did during a finals 2x he was in the lead and i told him to pack his rackets. once again i agree 0 tolerance
Click to expand...

Kudos to you for being a parent and helping your son. Unfortunately, many parents could never imagine pulling Johnny from a tournament because his ranking might suffer. Parents are often the problem so unless USTA intervenes, I'm afraid the problem will continue.
 
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