D
Deleted member 22147
Guest
I doubt Safin will be forgotten, he is one of the most iconic players in the sport. Actually to real tennis fans, most have a strong opinion of him whereas casual fans hardly know who he is...:shock:
Safin or Chang?
- Thread starter JBIMH
- Start date
I doubt Safin will be forgotten, he is one of the most iconic players in the sport. Actually to real tennis fans, most have a strong opinion of him whereas casual fans hardly know who he is...:shock:
D
Deleted member 25923
Guest
Safin all the way, no doubt. He's one of my fav players. Plus, he's frickin hilarious as well.
CyBorg
Legend
Small moments define a career. It's these kinds of moments that win majors. I'll take a guy who beat the best and won two majors over a guy who had a more consistent career with an arguably fluky major.
Last edited:
CyBorg
Legend
I was responding to a post which dealt with the amount of money Safin and Chang have made in their careers. Safin has made more. You are right that it has no direct correlation as to who is better and I never implied that it did.
CyBorg
Legend
I agree with you about consistency, but it's not true that Safin did nothing aside from winning the two majors. Again, he won fives masters series shields and was the world's number one player. He's payed his dues.
Chang won one major, but he would have been better off winning it in his 20s when he was a top five player. Instead he won the French at 17 and then not a single one thereafter. This means that in his prime he won zero majors.
quiet and nice are not the same thing. safin has always been accessible to media, fans and other players. chang isolated himself from fans and other players.
D
Deleted member 25923
Guest
Safin is only mean to one person and that person is..........................Safin LOL. He constantly makes fun of himself on court.
But yea, its the small moments that define a career. Look at Andy Roddick, he has one major win, and he has nothing to follow it up with, like Safin did. Now, who's gonna be remembered more, the guy that took down two of the greatest players to ever play tennis to win 2 majors, or the guy that has played consistent and is lost in all the fuss?
But yea, its the small moments that define a career. Look at Andy Roddick, he has one major win, and he has nothing to follow it up with, like Safin did. Now, who's gonna be remembered more, the guy that took down two of the greatest players to ever play tennis to win 2 majors, or the guy that has played consistent and is lost in all the fuss?
Azzurri
Legend
what does this mean? I would think great moements define a career if you are talking about Safin. Beating Sampras and Federer to win 2 majors (Fed in SF) is a SMALL moment? Do you mean small in how many?
Azzurri
Legend
If you are talking about OFF-THE-COURT money, well that has NOTHING to do with anything but their charm, looks, charisma...etc. If the OP asked who had more of this, Safin all the way. But you did imply, hence my retort.
Azzurri
Legend
If you parallel Chang and Safin's career, Chang has won much more than Safin. Besdies 2-1 in majors and some time at #1, Chang had a more sustained, prolonged career as a top player.
As far as when Chang won, that is totally irrelevant.
Safin is the better player player. Take a 100% Safin vs 100% Chang and Safin would probably win 6-7/10 times. But the question was not who was better. Who had the better career. You say career is defined by small moments? Well Chang had many more small moments than Safin. I don't consider beating Sampras and Fed to win 2 slams small moments, so I am not understanding your definition of a small moment.
If your opinion is that 2 slams trumps anyhting less (1 slam and many other titles), then that is an acceptable opinion and I will honor it, but to take things away from what Chang has done and make excuses as to why he won a major is disrespectful and that is what bothers me.
Azzurri
Legend
do us a favor and really do some research before you open your mouth. Why not get some stats on Chang vs those players you mentoned and Safin vs the best of the 90's. Proven fact...because you said so?
Azzurri
Legend
Dude, Safin will be remembered more for his antics and poor showings (for his gifts) than 2 terrific matches. If you poll non-tennis enthusiasts, they will remember Chang as a winner and fighter and Safin as the guy that throws his racquets...
firstservethenvolley
Banned
Slappano, there is no use arguing here. Someone's going to come up with some wrong stat and go on for about 2 pages about it.
aceroberts13
Professional
I'd take Safin's career just for the flashes of brilliance.
CyBorg
Legend
Capitalizing on a break point, for example. Safin had truly clutch points in his two major wins against great players. Chang had his moments as well, of course, but lost three majors in a row in his peak years RG in 95, AO and USO in 96 where he just couldn't muster to win in a big rally. He was overpowered and pretty badly.
Last edited:
CyBorg
Legend
If you are talking about OFF-THE-COURT money, well that has NOTHING to do with anything but their charm, looks, charisma...etc. If the OP asked who had more of this, Safin all the way. But you did imply, hence my retort.
The issue was about who made more money. I said that Safin made more money.
CyBorg
Legend
Chang had a more sustained, prolonged career, yes. But so did Andres Gomez. And so did Goran Ivanisevic. They weren't better than Safin.
It isn't irrelevant at all. We remember a player by how good he was in his prime years. Everything else is icing on the cake. Chang has the icing, but in his peak years he was never the best player.
Small moments in big matches.
No disrespect, but my position has always been that a player's peak performance trumps longevity. It's just the way we differ on these issues.
If Safin had no longevity to speak of then it would be different, but he put together several solid years, won a handful of masters series shields and was the world's top player. Admittedly, Safin is overrated (that's obvious) and Chang is underrated by many. I'll give you that one.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 22147
Guest
Safin has had a better career than Roddick as of now, and you need to look at Safin's injury time off compared to Roddick's and that is what has made Safin evidentially fall down the rankings.
Chang is 1-4 vs Sampras in Slams (1 win in 89 on clay before Sampras was good)
Chang only beat Edberg once, after that Edberg dominated him in GS play
Rafter met Chang only once in GS play and straight setted him
Chang is 3-2 vs Agassi in GS play, his best record. However Agassi holds a massive edge over him in overall H2H.
McEnroe well past his prime put a beat down on Chang.
Oh look, I did some research.
Azzurri
Legend
Well said. This probably a better answer than trying to argue who had a better career, but then this thread would have ended weeks ago.
Azzurri
Legend
I know, I know. He just needs to back up his statements.
Azzurri
Legend
Yessss, you proved yourself wrong in about 5 posts. Uhh, Sampras is the GOAT, so lets excuse those slams. Edberg is a top 10 player since 1975, so lets excuse him also. When did Rafter play him, when Chang was old and weak? Safin had 2 great wins against 2 of the best players ever. According to your research, Chang has beaten 3 of the best players in the past 30 years, so I guess Chang has had more BIG wins against BIG opponents than Safin. Thank you for proving me right..again.
Azzurri
Legend
If by career that included his off court life, then I choose Safin for sure.
LOL...you see! This is the people voting for Safin.
lambielspins
Banned
Yes, amazing how someone trying to prove how Chang is the weaker player would point out that he was 3-2 vs the great Agassi in GS matches during Agassi's prime.
Azzurri
Legend
LOL...I know. I can't even count how many times he claimed Change NEVER beat any top player, and now that he found information to the contrary, he makes excuses like Sampras was young (same age as Chang) and it was Chang's best surface (hardcourt was his best surface) and other bits of mis-information.
Because oif this thread, I have had an opportunity to really back at Safin's career and for all his supposed talent, I am amazed he has lost to so many "inferior" players over the years. I know he has had some injury issues, but maybe the lack of focus contributed. Anyway, Safin has 2 slams and a handful of tourney's...better than 90% of tennis players regardless.
fluffy Beaver
Professional
Yessss, you proved yourself wrong in about 5 posts. Uhh, Sampras is the GOAT, so lets excuse those slams. Edberg is a top 10 player since 1975, so lets excuse him also. When did Rafter play him, when Chang was old and weak? Safin had 2 great wins against 2 of the best players ever. According to your research, Chang has beaten 3 of the best players in the past 30 years, so I guess Chang has had more BIG wins against BIG opponents than Safin. Thank you for proving me right..again.
lol he also had to add to the agassi holds a massive edge over him overall, but didn't mention he was overall 8-12 to sampras which is not bad.
Biased?
12-8, primarily getting dominated by Sampras at big tournaments. He beat him once on clay in GS play, other then that he got two sets in the 4 other matches they played in GS play. I'm excusing Sampras because 89 was before his prime, and the fact that they played on Clay, the worst surface for Sampras.
You're excusing Sampras and Edberg because they are good players? Now you are just being stupid. His best record in GS play was against Agassi, and that wasn't even 50%. Rafter played him in 1997 well within Chang's prime, and straight setted him at the US Open.
Agassi wasn't really in his "prime" in those mid 90s. He was good, but he really entered it in 1999, where he was most dominant from the years of 1999 to 2005. And don't argue either, because his winning percentage from 1999-2005 was much better then in the 90s.
McEnroe was beating Chang left and right, and barely lost to him at the U.S. Open in 5 sets at the 91 open, when he defintely wasn't the McEnroe of past.
Chang hardly holds any "legendary" victories other then his defeat of Lendl at the FO, Safin has plenty to go around.
Last edited:
Azzurri
Legend
The Agassi record was 7-11 until Chang lost his desire/ability and Agassi won 4 in a row to finish off their matches. But yes, Agassi did have a pretty nice record against Chang...but its not a big deal. I informed him of the Sampras record..I don't think he reads to well, so it just went over his head.
Azzurri
Legend
an interesting article regarding safin from the mouth of nastase. http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29022008/58/atp-tour-ilie-desert.html
he thinks safin can be number 1 again. but he also says safin crazier than himself
he thinks safin can be number 1 again. but he also says safin crazier than himself
superman1
Legend
The Agassi record was 7-11 until Chang lost his desire/ability and Agassi won 4 in a row to finish off their matches. But yes, Agassi did have a pretty nice record against Chang...but its not a big deal. I informed him of the Sampras record..I don't think he reads to well, so it just went over his head.
Chang got most of his wins during the lows of Agassi's career, like '96 when he didn't care any more. You just don't beat a prime Agassi in straight sets at the Australian and US Open, it just doesn't happen, especially not 6-3 6-2 6-2. Agassi was just out of it.
As for whose career I would rather have, I'd have to say Chang. I'd rather be the fourth guy mentioned along with Sampras, Agassi, and Courier, than the guy who, whenever his name is brought up, people go, "oh, what a waste."
On the other hand, if the question is who would I rather be, the answer is Safin. Just look at the guy. He's one of the luckiest men in the world, despite his career troubles. Women throw themselves on him.
Last edited:
Azzurri
Legend
Agassi was still pretty good in 1996. He made two SF in slams, won 3 tourney's and was ranked 8th. His ranking in 1994 and 1995 he was 2nd. I believe it was 1997 that he had a rough, rough year. Chang still beat a good Agassi, but I know what y7oiu mean. Agassi did have a time where he was not difficult to beat.
If you take notice, Chang beat Agassi at the 1996 US Open and the AO, not in the early rounds, but the semi-finals, so obviously Agassi was playing well at that point in those slams. So lets not forget this. Not something we should take lightly.
Chang also beat him in 1995 while Agassi was #2.
Hi wins came in 90, 92, 93, 94, 95 and 96. Agassi had his 2 worst years in 93 and 97 when he was ranked out of the top 10. Chang beat him in other years and he was ranked in the top 10 each year, so that way of thinking (probably thanks to namranger who is clueless) is incorrect.
Oh man, I would be Safin in a heartbeat. Women, fast cars and charisma...as long as I still make millions that would be ok. But we all know, years later, lying in his bed he will know he wasted most of his talent.
The fact of the matter is your old school mentality blinds you to the fact that Safin's career will be remembered, Chang's will not. Ask any most tennis fans, and the majority of them will know who Marat Safin is. Charismatic, great player, had lots of legendary victories. Ask them about Michael Chang, and a handful of people will remember him, specifically hardcore tennis fans (those who linger around on these boards).
fluffy Beaver
Professional
Acutally, all my friends that don't play/not hardcore fans only know of Chang, Sampras, Mac, and Agassi. They have never heard of Safin/Fed....etc. Perhaps because they aren't American. It appears your "fact" is not true around me, maybe you should try to do statistics and find out your "fact" is true instead of just saying things you personally believe?
CanadianChic
Hall of Fame
^^ Your friends have never heard of Federer? I suppose because he has only held the number one position for such a short period of time whereas Chang is a household name.
kungfusmkim
Professional
Chang no doubt have yous een the moves he would make runnning after the ball. He could also slide i dont think safin could run behind and hit the ball cross court while sliding. Even if marat is good with women no woman will want you if your a failure. Chang made history. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idyrH9-O78k thats how i prove my point.
saram
Legend
You didn't prove a point--you expressed your opinion. Unfortunately, there is no proof for either player--only personal preference and opinion.
Azzurri
Legend
LOL...Chang's induction to the Hall Of Fame is something that people will forget....so to you the HOF is where people go to get forgotten?
Lots of legendary victories....ok bud, please keep it up. Safin has had more legendary losses than wins, way more.
Blind? its sad how you don't realize the clueless posts you generate.
sorry to nit-pick, your post is mostly sensible. but safin at his best would beat chang at his best 10/10 times, maybe 11
.
Azzurri
Legend
sorry to nit-pick, your post is mostly sensible. but safin at his best would beat chang at his best 10/10 times, maybe 11
Oh I don't disagree that Safin is the better player. If you look at Chang's career vs his peers (the better ones), he won roughly 40% of the time. Now, the issue with Safin is his mental game. A guy like Chang may actually eat Safin up. I thought maybe Safin would win 6/10 times, but after really thinking about it, Chang is that type of player that gives Safin problems...the worker, the guy that never gives up.
Now, lets not forget Safin has been playing poorly the past 3-4 years. But if we take a prime Safin 00-01 and a prime Chang..early to mid 90's, who would have the better head to head record? Tough question to answer since Safin is truly a more gifted player, but mentally, Chang is as much better in that category as Safin is physically...so who knows. But as far as career, Chang just had a better overall career (going from first 10 years of each person).
Azzurri
Legend
To claim people that have heard of "tennis players" like Sampras and Mac yet never heard of Roger Federer and or Marat Safin is a bit out there. Not saying its not true, but its certainly hard to believe. Its not like we are talking about Tsonga that burst on the scene. Federer and Safin are wordly figures that are well known throughout the world for many years...so I hear you.
firstservethenvolley
Banned
Safin got thrashed in 58 minutes by Hewitt. Oh my god, 58 minutes? He could've been better.
Azzurri
Legend
Safin is no longer a threat...I mean he has not won in 4 years(?), rarely makes it past the 2-3 round and its a darn shame. Tennis needs guys like Marat and I'll be honest, I am beginning to detest the guy because of his lack of effort/heart/etc.. I look so forward watching play only to be disgusted each time he plays. I like Federer, but besides him, I don't really give a hoot for the younger players. I want to like Novak D., but not sure about him. I have a hard time investing myself in a player that has very, very annoying habits on court (the ball bouncing). I don't mind quirks, but things like that really bug me.
grafselesfan
Banned
This is an interesting poll.
grafselesfan
Banned
I dont know if dating is the right word but I suspect he gets it on with quite a few. Sometimes he shows up with an entourage of half naked women for matches. As much as he can be frusterating for those who want to see the great tennis Safin is capable of more I have to give the guy credit. He basically is more interested in booze, partying, hot chicks, than practicing or making a real career priority to tennis and still was able to win 2 slams while doing all of that. That is pretty amazing.
