NatF
Bionic Poster
Three 5's make a 15 though...
Safin Wawrinka whos greater
- Thread starter l0s3
- Start date
Three 5's make a 15 though...
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Hall of Fame
Nope in a match obviously. He’d demolish him harder than Zverev does to his girlfriend or umpireAt what? Sucking in Grand Slams?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Whatever makes you happy .... doesn't change the truth!
Inconvenient facts are still facts. Zverev's career blasts Ljubicic's and he is still a 24 year old who is just getting going.
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Hall of Fame
Oh, I’m sure he’ll do just fine considering the Big 3 are on the tail-winds of their careersWhatever makes you happy .... doesn't change the truth!
Inconvenient facts are still facts. Zverev's career blasts Ljubicic's and he is still a 24 year old who is just getting going.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Needs a Palpatine gif.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
There was no Big 3 in 2006 and Ljubicic still achieved nothing. He was the worst player ever to enter the top 10, top 5 and top 3. If he were playing today, he would be a Delbonis.
That's how much the standard of tennis has improved since 2006. A player with a record like Ljubicic's cannot even crack the Top 30 during this strong era, never mind Top 3.
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Hall of Fame
There was no Big 3 in 2006 and Ljubicic still achieved nothing. He was the worst player ever to enter the top 10, top 5 and top 3. If he were playing today, he would be a Delbonis.
That's how much the standard of tennis has improved since 2006. A player with a record like Ljubicic's cannot even crack the Top 30 during this strong era, never mind Top 3.
Wow, so you're saying Zverev or DELBONIS could beat prime Djokovic, prime Nadal, and Roddick in a single tournament?
You "weak era" users need mental help
BlueB
Legend
Maybe, but did you sleep with 3 of them, the night before your match?
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Wow, so you're saying Zverev or DELBONIS could beat prime Djokovic, prime Nadal, and Roddick in a single tournament?
You "weak era" users need mental help
You are aware that Zverev has won the ATP Tour finals twice?
Once beating Federer and Djokovic.
The other time beating Medvedev and Djokovic.
Typical. The ATP Finals is a crucial piece missing from Nadal's resume but when Zverev wins it TWICE beating an all star cast, it means that he is worse than Ljubicic.
Honestly, sit down!
initialize
Hall of Fame
Yeah, hence why I said he couldn't beat them BOTH in their PRIME and in a SINGLE tournament.You are aware that Zverev has won the ATP Tour finals twice?
Once beating Federer and Djokovic.
The other time beating Medvedev and Djokovic.
Typical. The ATP Finals is a crucial piece missing from Nadal's resume but when Zverev wins it TWICE beating an all star cast, it means that he is worse than Ljubicic.
Honestly, sit down!
How old are you just out of curiosity?
abmk
Bionic Poster
As far as career is concerned, Safin reached #1 unlike Wawa who never got close and has 5 masters to wawa's 1.
Let me bring up like 10 more matches. Behold:
1. AO 2005 F vs Hewitt
2. AO 2004 QF vs Roddick
3. AO 2004 SF vs Agassi
4. Wim 2008 2R vs Djoko
5. AO 2002 4R vs Sampras
6. Paris 2002 final vs Hewitt
7. Paris 2000 final vs Scud
8. Madrid 04 final vs Nalby
9. Hamburg 00 final vs Kuerten
10. Madrid 04 semi vs Agassi
An entire thread:
Demolishing the rubbish myth of Safin playing well in only 2 tournaments
Many around here seem to be harbouring the myth that Safin played well in only 2 tournaments. - USO 2000 and AO 2005. That's utter and complete bollocks Short version : Apart from the 2 slams, guy made 2 more slam finals, played well at YEC 2004, won 5 masters titles, made semis of all slams...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Considering the fact that he's been no.1 and won 5 masters 1000, I'd say Safin peaked more than twice.
skaj
Legend
skaj
Legend
The 3rd Best Player in the World in 2006:
Sit down!
And he was at that position for how long?
Thriller
Hall of Fame
LOL! When do you think 'prime' Nadal was? You're disappointed that a 12 year old Zverev couldn't beat Nadal?
Honestly, stop making a fool of yourself, sit down!
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Too long. LOL at some of you lot behaving as if it would have been just fine if Ljubicic was No.5 instead of No. 3. A player that bereft of talent belongs at No. 30 something. The FACT that over a 62 week period he was the 3rd best player in the world is an epic disgrace.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Let's call BO5 peak level a wash for the sake of the argument.
Safin clearly leads BO3.
2 + 5 + #1 > 3 + 1 + #3
Safin clearly leads BO3.
2 + 5 + #1 > 3 + 1 + #3
skaj
Legend
And for how many of those weeks was this player, who beat all the top players, has a deadly serve, great power off both wings, effective volleys, and smart shot selection, at number 3?
Apun94
Hall of Fame
OH WOW THIS IS SUCH A HORRIBLE TAKE. YOU REALLY STARTED WATCHING TENNIS YESTERDAYWawrinka by absolute far. Plus he has a one hander and gorgeous fat. Safin is what you get when you drop peak Kyrgios in the 2000s.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Hall of Fame
Slams: Wawrinka wins 3 to 2. and higher GS Win% (151-58 72.2% vs. 95-38 71.4%)
Olympics: Wawrinka won an Olympic Gold in Doubles this gives him the win essentially by default (Safin didn't play in Olympics)
Davis Cup: This one is close. I give it to Safin barely. Wawrinka has better singles record (22-13 vs 21-15, but Safin won 2 Davis Cups and won crucial matches in both Russian wins 2002 and 2006 while Stan got his 1 Davis Cup 2014 (3-1 in Singles matches). Once again, close but will give it to Safin.
M1000: Safin by far in this category. Safin won 4 or 5 (no need to fact-check while Stan only won Monte Carlo).
Doubles: Both players won only 2 titles each, but Stan has Olympic Gold here which breaks the tie.
ATP Finals: None won or made it to the Final. Stan made 3 SF's while Safin 2, so the slight edge to Stan.
H2H vs Top Players: Stan was 4-4 vs ND in GS matches and actually lead ND 3-2 in finals. However, Safin has the edge against the top players. Safin 4-3 Sampras, 7-7 Hewitt, 6-6 JC Ferrero, 3-3 Agassi, 3-1 Rios, and was 2-0 in Slams against a young Novak. Only major thorn was his 2-10 record against Fed.
Overall: Wawrinka wins 4 out of the 7 categories and he was 3-1 against ND and Nadal in GS finals, so will say Stan was BARELY greater.
Olympics: Wawrinka won an Olympic Gold in Doubles this gives him the win essentially by default (Safin didn't play in Olympics)
Davis Cup: This one is close. I give it to Safin barely. Wawrinka has better singles record (22-13 vs 21-15, but Safin won 2 Davis Cups and won crucial matches in both Russian wins 2002 and 2006 while Stan got his 1 Davis Cup 2014 (3-1 in Singles matches). Once again, close but will give it to Safin.
M1000: Safin by far in this category. Safin won 4 or 5 (no need to fact-check while Stan only won Monte Carlo).
Doubles: Both players won only 2 titles each, but Stan has Olympic Gold here which breaks the tie.
ATP Finals: None won or made it to the Final. Stan made 3 SF's while Safin 2, so the slight edge to Stan.
H2H vs Top Players: Stan was 4-4 vs ND in GS matches and actually lead ND 3-2 in finals. However, Safin has the edge against the top players. Safin 4-3 Sampras, 7-7 Hewitt, 6-6 JC Ferrero, 3-3 Agassi, 3-1 Rios, and was 2-0 in Slams against a young Novak. Only major thorn was his 2-10 record against Fed.
Overall: Wawrinka wins 4 out of the 7 categories and he was 3-1 against ND and Nadal in GS finals, so will say Stan was BARELY greater.
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
This is not cut and dry and it definitely is not 2 to 1 for Wawrinka like that poll shows. The truth is Wawrinka was never #1, and one of the very few multi Slam champions who wasn't #1. In fact, I can't think of any other player who won 3 Slams that wasn't ranked #1 and then he only has 1 Masters to Safin's 5. That hurts Wawrinka imo. He was able to maximum his opportunities and his good matchup with Djokovic in BO5 which is why he won 3 Slams but outside of that, Safin has more feathers in his cap imo.
ghostofMecir
Legend
Why are you taking about aggregate title counts? 2005 Federer was a level above anything Djokovic has shown. It was a run in which Federer was 97-3 before losing to Nalbandian in the TMC Final after coming back from injury. In these three losses, he held match points and won more points than both Gasquet and Safin. He was only outplayed by Nadal at the 2005 RG. Along with 1984 JMac, it’s the closest amy player has come to being undefeated. Djokovic NEVER reached this level.
Wawrinka doesn’t have a better backhand. Safin’s return is better off the BH, his defense is better off the backhand. Peak Safin was a better mover than Wawrinka. And while Wawrinka’s serve was good and he wound up in the top 10 in first serve points won% twice and top 16 like 4-5 times, peak Safin’s serve was just a little better.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Safin's BH is better.
Wawa's was not way faster than Safin. their movement is in the same ballpark.
Stan has more patience/topspin though. (which is why he is clearly better on clay)
safin's return is significantly better than Wawa's.
safin's serve is a little better courtesy of his height.
even if you want to say novak's peak/top level at AO is better, 14 is not in Novak's top 3 AOs. 05 is for fed (04,05,07)
Safin beat a clearly better opponent in AO 05 fed than Wawa in AO 14 Djoko.
djoko beating nowhere near prime level fed at AO in 08/11/16/20 doesn't change that. (Fed had 6 prime level years at AO - 04-07 and 09-10)
Djoko was hardly peaking in 15 RG final. It was still prime level, but not peak. his defense was very good, but play was passive in general. form dipped significantly compared to 15 RG QF vs Nadal.
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JaxTeller
Professional
Now this is wrong, Novak was 60-2 after the UsO,(even in Cincinnati,he retired coz of the injury) means all his defeats after that were coz of injury issues..
Takashitennislover
New User
Safin has 15 titles which include 5 masters in a short career while Wawrinka has a similar number of titles with 1 just masters title among them in an era where careers last much longer. Marat has wins over better quality players while Wawrinka has wins over just Novak and no one else of that calibre.
Easily Marat Safin!
Easily Marat Safin!
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Wawrinka easy. He has 3 slams and safin 2.
He is more consistent than safin I think.
He is more consistent than safin I think.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
There's not a huge difference between 3 and 2 Slams. Plus, Safin reached number 1 and has more M1000s titles. However, Stan did win his Slams on two different surfaces.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Safin ranking pts can be counted. He became number 1 in transition era. Stan didn't have luxary
Neptune
Hall of Fame
T5 Weight 6.8% is crazy, feels like playing in a vacuum.
as Top10 | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Wawrinka | 34 (12-22) 35.29% | 11.53% | 55 (28-27) 50.91% | 18.64% | 240 (180-60) 75.00% | 81.36% | 295 (208-87) 70.51% |
Safin | 19 (9-10) 47.37% | 6.76% | 37 (22-15) 59.46% | 13.17% | 244 (174-70) 71.31% | 86.83% | 281 (196-85) 69.75% |
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
True, but Stan also had the opportunity to play against an injured ATG in a final.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
2 more slam against players who have won combined 46 slams together.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
So are Fed and Rafa's majors worth more because they beat a player with more Slams?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Besides, Safin beat both Fed and Djokovic on his way to his 2005 win
Vincent-C
Legend
Stan was "way faster" than Safin? Mmm.
Love Stan's BH too, but Marat's was the better shot, on average- along with his volleys and transition game.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Yes, I would say young Safin (before the knee injuries) had much better movement than Stan.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Safin has been world number 1, won Davis Cup twice, won 5 masters, and was considered a big underachiever
Wawrinka peaked at world number 3, won Davis Cup once, won 1 masters, and if anything is considered an overachiever
Safin was usually very entertaining to watch, even if he was melting down.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Underachiever is hype machine max.
He i am not failure, i am just underachiever, this is what kids say.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Safin had a similar temperament to Ivanisevic, i.e. very volatile, which could affect his standard of play. He also had several injuries from 2005 onwards, and 2003.
For a guy that underachieved by a huge amount, winning 2 majors, 5 masters, 2 Davis Cups, 15 singles titles overall, and being world number 1, is pretty impressive. Give me that anyday to Nalbandian, who had a habit of shooting himself in the foot far too often.
Vincent-C
Legend
Hear, hear. Lots of good tennis from Marat.. and "colorful", too!
Vincent-C
Legend
Vincent-C
Legend
He was all of 29 and had just won Wimbledon, IIRC. Safin's dismantling of him in the USO Final was masterly.
