Sam Groth: "I make no money on tour"

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jdubbs

Hall of Fame
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...-you-play-in-the-red-zone-20120827-24wmm.html
by Sam Groth

I'm a professional tennis player. I live in Melbourne and my world ranking is 256. I returned home yesterday from the US Open, where I was the first alternate for the qualifying draw. Had I made it, my prizemoney would have covered my flights, and maybe a couple of nights in the hotel. Instead, I have just added another hefty amount to my bloated credit card bill.

I turned pro after the 2005 Wimbledon junior tournament, where I made the boys' doubles final and embarked on a career of travelling the world, staying in nice hotels and making great money. Or that's how I thought it was going to be! I have been running at a loss every year since. If it wasn't for the fact that I joined the Australian Institute of Sport at 18, and have received massive support from my family, tennis would not have been an option.

In 2009, I played main draw singles at the Australian Open and collected my biggest pay cheque, $19,400. Not bad, right? After racquet stringing, the payback for coaching required by my AIS contract and hotel expenses, I took home $1 - and that's only because the system won't allow a payout of $0!

Last year, after shoulder surgery and an extended break from the sport, I decided to come back and give tennis another crack. Financially, it's still just as tough. I have the support of Tennis Works (a coaching centre), a racquet contract with Babolat and sponsorship from Healthwise Active to help with some of my travel, but for the most part I'm doing it alone.
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From 13 tournaments this year, I've made a total of $20,343. Flights, hotels, food, racquet stringing, clothing, and any other expenses you can think of mean that I've spent close to that much again. You share rooms (or if you're lucky, stay with a host family), take a round-about flight because it's cheaper, and eat where you can - not ideal when it comes to maximising performance, but what you need to do to survive.

The life of a tennis player outside of the world's top 100 is tough. The guys you see on TV each week are doing well, but it's the guys you don't see who are really battling. Believe me, I love what I do - if I didn't, I wouldn't still be out there. It's a full-time job, even where I'm ranked. You train every day, just as much as the top guys, so that when you do get the chance you'll be ready to take it.

There's talk about a player boycott of next year's Australian Open. The grand slams are important events that generate significant revenues, and the players who perform there should share in an acceptable percentage of those revenues. That view is supported by the playing group - from the very top to the bottom.

The issue is not confined to the majors, though. There hasn't been a prizemoney increase at Futures tournaments - which sit below the grand slams, ATP Tour events and Challengers - since they started in 1998. I don't have anything against the top guys earning big dollars, because they are the guys who put this sport on the map and bring the crowds through the gates, but they all started at the lowest level, and so will the players who succeed them.

This is not a hard-luck story. I love playing tennis, I've been to more than 40 countries, I've made wonderful friends, had great times. Everyone who steps on a court wants to one day win Wimbledon, and I'm no different. It's the dream that sustains you, even when the danger sometimes is that the credit card might not.
 

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
This is not a hard-luck story. I love playing tennis, I've been to more than 40 countries, I've made wonderful friends, had great times. Everyone who steps on a court wants to one day win Wimbledon, and I'm no different. It's the dream that sustains you, even when the danger sometimes is that the credit card might not.

So it's a pity party until the end when he says "don't pity me". Yeah right. My question is why are sub-200 talents entitled to an easy ride on tour?
 

6-1 6-3 6-0

Banned
$20,343 in a year that isn't complete isn't "no money". The greater your talent, the more you earn. If you can't do your job well then you don't get paid well.
 
Sam is right.

Look at Golf...90+ players make a million each year on tour. Compare that to tennis, I think the number is 15.

It did read like a pity party, but he's correct in that something needs to be done to get more money for the initial rounds of Majors.
 
G

guitarplayer

Guest
I'm in sales. Same deal. If you are good, you are making a ton of money, if you are average, you will make an average income, if you are a poor sales rep, your income will also be poor.

Welcome to the real world without a free ride.
 
I'm in sales. Same deal. If you are good, you are making a ton of money, if you are average, you will make an average income, if you are a poor sales rep, your income will also be poor.

Welcome to the real world without a free ride.

That's not really accurate. I'm in sales too, and I work in a building of about 60 people, 25 or so make 100K+ a year. That's one office where 25 people are making a great living...Extrapolate that across the US, let alone the world and you've got hundreds of thousands of people making great money.

Think about where Sam is coming from. He's one of the best 250 tennis players in the entire world, yet he struggles to make a living.

If you were one of the best 250 salespeople in the world, you'd be making a million dollars a year or more.
 
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TTMR

Hall of Fame
I'm in sales. Same deal. If you are good, you are making a ton of money, if you are average, you will make an average income, if you are a poor sales rep, your income will also be poor.

Welcome to the real world without a free ride.

How can you possibly think tennis competition and sales are comparable? Tennis is a zero sum game; there is a limited amount of prize money to disburse. When you defeat an opponent, you are, by definition, taking some of the money that would otherwise go to him.

Sales is not a zero sum game. You and your fellow sales reps can each make as much money as possible, and your sales do not impact the other's ability to make sales.
 
G

guitarplayer

Guest
That's not really accurate. I'm in sales too, and I work in a building of about 60 people, 25 or so make 100K+ a year. That's one office where 25 people are making a great living...Extrapolate that across the US, let alone the world and you've got hundreds of thousands of people making great money.

Think about where Sam is coming from. He's one of the best 250 tennis players in the entire world, yet he struggles to make a living.

If you were one of the best 250 salespeople in the world, you'd be making a million dollars a year or more.

No, you are looking at it wrong. Out of 250 professional players, he's the worst. I am a pharmaceutical sales rep. My company has 194 reps. Sam is like our 194 th rep. Who is probably on a Performance Plan from HR, given 60 days to turn thing around or he will be terminated.

Sam, works for a professional tennis organization employing 250 reps. Federer is the number one rep in the company and making a lot of money. Sam is the worst, no one is interested in watching him.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...-you-play-in-the-red-zone-20120827-24wmm.html
by Sam Groth

I'm a professional tennis player. I live in Melbourne and my world ranking is 256. I returned home yesterday from the US Open, where I was the first alternate for the qualifying draw. Had I made it, my prizemoney would have covered my flights, and maybe a couple of nights in the hotel. Instead, I have just added another hefty amount to my bloated credit card bill.

I turned pro after the 2005 Wimbledon junior tournament, where I made the boys' doubles final and embarked on a career of travelling the world, staying in nice hotels and making great money. Or that's how I thought it was going to be! I have been running at a loss every year since. If it wasn't for the fact that I joined the Australian Institute of Sport at 18, and have received massive support from my family, tennis would not have been an option.

In 2009, I played main draw singles at the Australian Open and collected my biggest pay cheque, $19,400. Not bad, right? After racquet stringing, the payback for coaching required by my AIS contract and hotel expenses, I took home $1 - and that's only because the system won't allow a payout of $0!

Last year, after shoulder surgery and an extended break from the sport, I decided to come back and give tennis another crack. Financially, it's still just as tough. I have the support of Tennis Works (a coaching centre), a racquet contract with Babolat and sponsorship from Healthwise Active to help with some of my travel, but for the most part I'm doing it alone.
Advertisement

From 13 tournaments this year, I've made a total of $20,343. Flights, hotels, food, racquet stringing, clothing, and any other expenses you can think of mean that I've spent close to that much again. You share rooms (or if you're lucky, stay with a host family), take a round-about flight because it's cheaper, and eat where you can - not ideal when it comes to maximising performance, but what you need to do to survive.

The life of a tennis player outside of the world's top 100 is tough. The guys you see on TV each week are doing well, but it's the guys you don't see who are really battling. Believe me, I love what I do - if I didn't, I wouldn't still be out there. It's a full-time job, even where I'm ranked. You train every day, just as much as the top guys, so that when you do get the chance you'll be ready to take it.

There's talk about a player boycott of next year's Australian Open. The grand slams are important events that generate significant revenues, and the players who perform there should share in an acceptable percentage of those revenues. That view is supported by the playing group - from the very top to the bottom.

The issue is not confined to the majors, though. There hasn't been a prizemoney increase at Futures tournaments - which sit below the grand slams, ATP Tour events and Challengers - since they started in 1998. I don't have anything against the top guys earning big dollars, because they are the guys who put this sport on the map and bring the crowds through the gates, but they all started at the lowest level, and so will the players who succeed them.

This is not a hard-luck story. I love playing tennis, I've been to more than 40 countries, I've made wonderful friends, had great times. Everyone who steps on a court wants to one day win Wimbledon, and I'm no different. It's the dream that sustains you, even when the danger sometimes is that the credit card might not.


and people think there is no doping in tennis lol. Not saying Groth dopes, Im saying were I a struggling journeywoman..I surely may have incentive based on this reality.

It also echoes what darren cahill was saying about players wanting greater revenue. He said he would rather see purses increased at futures and challenger events than at slams because thats where most of the lower ranked players toil and they get no money.
 
No, you are looking at it wrong. Out of 250 professional players, he's the worst. I am a pharmaceutical sales rep. My company has 194 reps. Sam is like our 194 th rep. Who is probably on a Performance Plan from HR, given 60 days to turn thing around or he will be terminated.

Sam, works for a professional tennis organization employing 250 reps. Federer is the number one rep in the company and making a lot of money. Sam is the worst, no one is interested in watching him.

Yeah but the disconnect is the fact that you're talking about one pharma company in a sea of hundreds of pharma companies...There are thousands of pharma reps in this country, and millions of salespeople in general.

In tennis, it is what it is. He's the 250th best player in the world, yet he makes McDonald's money. There's something wrong there.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
How can you possibly think tennis competition and sales are comparable? Tennis is a zero sum game; there is a limited amount of prize money to disburse. When you defeat an opponent, you are, by definition, taking some of the money that would otherwise go to him.

Sales is not a zero sum game. You and your fellow sales reps can each make as much money as possible, and your sales do not impact the other's ability to make sales.

succinct and to the point.
 
There are actually a number of professions that can't support over 200 people so that they can all make a living. I met a guy who is a suboceanic oil geologist, and he told me there's really only a few dozen guys in the world making a living doing that. Even in entertainment, which tennis is a part of, I wonder what the 256th "ranked" (most successful) standup comedian earns a year. Probably not very much. "Touring pro" is something the world doesn't need very many of, and the income reflects that.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
The guy is 256th best in the world in what he's doing, yet he makes no money. How about you?

dont forget, NSK is a business owner :)

but no doubt he is hostile because of waffa's complaining that he cant make it on a paltry 15mil a year salary and he needs more prize money.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
There are actually a number of professions that can't support over 200 people so that they can all make a living. I met a guy who is a suboceanic oil geologist, and he told me there's really only a few dozen guys in the world making a living doing that. Even in entertainment, which tennis is a part of, I wonder what the 256th "ranked" (most successful) standup comedian earns a year. Probably not very much. "Touring pro" is something the world doesn't need very many of, and the income reflects that.

its the lower rated events that let future champions mature and develop their game. rather than get beatdown early in slams and masters for years not getting much match play, they spend a year or so in the minors getting match play and honing their game.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
There are actually a number of professions that can't support over 200 people so that they can all make a living. I met a guy who is a suboceanic oil geologist, and he told me there's really only a few dozen guys in the world making a living doing that. Even in entertainment, which tennis is a part of, I wonder what the 256th "ranked" (most successful) standup comedian earns a year. Probably not very much. "Touring pro" is something the world doesn't need very many of, and the income reflects that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg
 
G

guitarplayer

Guest
There's just no market for being below average in any industry. Sure he's 250 in the world. But he's number 250 in a very limited market where his customer base is only interested in watching the best.

He's the worst in his industry. Not the 250 best in the world.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
There's just no market for being below average in any industry. Sure he's 250 in the world. But he's number 250 in a very limited market where his customer base is only interested in watching the best.

He's the worst in his industry. Not the 250 best in the world.

even minor league players make enough money to live on.

then again, those leagues play for players to travel, eat etc.

tennis players are on their own for the most part.
 

ChanceEncounter

Professional
The guy is 256th best in the world in what he's doing, yet he makes no money. How about you?

The 256th best accountant in the world is still doing a valued service. The 256th best tennis player is hardly making money for anyone. I don't know of anyone who has ever said, "I'm going to go watch Sam Groth play."
 
@ Guitar player

So if people are only interested in watching the best in the world, why are there 128 draws?

If there was only enough interest for the top 50, why bother paying all those other players to lose in the first round?
 
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ChanceEncounter

Professional
^^So if people are only interested in watching the best in the world, why are there 128 draws?

If there was only enough interest for the top 50, why bother paying all those other players to lose in the first round?
To give people the opportunity to become one of the best.

Tennis is a game with a lot of upward mobility and incentive for upward mobility. Players towards the bottom are paid minimally because people pay minimal attention to them.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
To give people the opportunity to become one of the best.

Tennis is a game with a lot of upward mobility and incentive for upward mobility. Players towards the bottom are paid minimally because people pay minimal attention to them.

do you agree with a living wage?

or only subsistence for the tennis peasants?
 

ChanceEncounter

Professional
do you agree with a living wage?

or only subsistence for the tennis peasants?
I agree with people getting paid their economic value.

It's not a function of working hard. I can work very hard every day building lego buildings, but if I'm not providing a service that people are willing to pay for, I don't deserve pay for it.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I agree with people getting paid their economic value.

It's not a function of working hard. I can work very hard every day building lego buildings, but if I'm not providing a service that people are willing to pay for, I don't deserve pay for it.

I'll take one of your lego buildings.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
I agree with people getting paid their economic value.

It's not a function of working hard. I can work very hard every day building lego buildings, but if I'm not providing a service that people are willing to pay for, I don't deserve pay for it.

you realize that if not for the futures/challenger events , future superstars would take longer to develop if they would develop at all?

they spend a few years in the minors getting their games together.

they dont just appear fully formed in the slams out of nowhere.

imagine if every junior who turned pro had to try and make a way in the masters and slams with no way to face lesser quality to get their games together.

but who cares, futures and challenger events dont matter.
 
@ChanceEncounter

^^Then how can anyone honestly expect people to pursue this sport professionally when its nearly impossible to make money on the lowest levels, which is where every pro will be at for a some period of time?

It just seems unreasonable to ask people to do something like that. If we want to continue to be entertained by tennis, we need to acknowledge that these players need more money to be able to continue there journey towards tennis stardom.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
you realize that if not for the futures/challenger events , future superstars would take longer to develop if they would develop at all?

they spend a few years in the minors getting their games together.

they dont just appear fully formed in the slams out of nowhere.

You want the minor league players to make more money. Fair enough.

Any proposals on where the money comes from?
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
@ChanceEncounter

^^Then how can anyone honestly expect people to pursue this sport professionally when its nearly impossible to make money on the lowest levels, which is where every pro will be at for a some period of time?

It just seems unreasonable to ask people to do something like that. If we want to continue to be entertained by tennis, we need to acknowledge that these players need more money to be able to continue there journey towards tennis stardom.

And yet, plenty of people do.......
 
I agree with people getting paid their economic value.

It's not a function of working hard. I can work very hard every day building lego buildings, but if I'm not providing a service that people are willing to pay for, I don't deserve pay for it.

Hear Hear!
I'm tired of people having this attitude that the world owes them something for just showing up. Sam has two options: if he wants more money while playing tennis, he needs to get better. If he likes tennis and doesn't improve, he's not going to make money.
 
You want the minor league players to make more money. Fair enough.

Any proposals on where the money comes from?

Slam winners could do without that extra million:)

Seriously, if these players quit early on the sport suffers. I don't mind millionaires making slightly less to support the overall structure of tennis.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hey, nobody held a gun to Sam's head, and forced him to play tennis.
They call it "chasing the tennis dream".
It's a DREAM.
You want to make tons of money? Easy.
Inherit it.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
You want the minor league players to make more money. Fair enough.

Any proposals on where the money comes from?

from the slams who barely pay out their receipts in prize money.

a modest 7% per slam spread out to futures/challenger events

and hows about the apparel and gear companies who make so much money from the sport kick in an extra smidge to.

not saying there should be 500k purses. but we can do a little better, surely?

how about reduced fair for players, since the airlines know they will be racking up the mileage even with FF miles.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Slam winners could do without that extra million:)

Seriously, if these players quit early on the sport suffers. I don't mind millionaires making slightly less to support the overall structure of tennis.

Nice of you to be so generous with Fed's money........
 

connico

Rookie
Most of your have not considered the fact that without people like Sam, the ones that don't make it or struggle to make ends meets are the ones that provide the competition in tennis.

Without those people like Sam, we wont see any variation or excitement in tennis. Without adequate financial support these players fail to develop and further improve the game of tennis.

But hey who cares, its a dog eat dog world.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
from the slams who barely pay out their receipts in prize money.

a modest 7% per slam spread out to futures/challenger events

and hows about the apparel and gear companies who make so much money from the sport kick in an extra smidge to.

not saying there should be 500k purses. but we can do a little better, surely?

how about reduced fair for players, since the airlines know they will be racking up the mileage even with FF miles.

Sounds reasonable.

I think the players council is fighting for something like this (in theory).

Not that there is a damn thing they can do in reality.
 
Hear Hear!
I'm tired of people having this attitude that the world owes them something for just showing up. Sam has two options: if he wants more money while playing tennis, he needs to get better. If he likes tennis and doesn't improve, he's not going to make money.

There is a difference between entitlement and being reasonable.

People who feel entitled do absolutely nothing and expect to be compensated the same as those who do 200x the work they're supposed to.

Being reasonable is doing the same amount of work and expecting to make a LIVABLE salary. Not millions of dollars, just something that they can use to support themselves until the next tournament.

That is not so much to ask for.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
Most of your have not considered the fact that without people like Sam, the ones that don't make it or struggle to make ends meets are the ones that provide the competition in tennis.

Without those people like Sam, we wont see any variation or excitement in tennis. Without adequate financial support these players fail to develop and further improve the game of tennis.

But hey who cares, its a dog eat dog world.


precisely.

where would fed/djoker nadal be if they had to turn pro and arrive at the masters/slam circuit with no time in the minors?


please, fed has plenty of money from endorsements, slightly less prize money wont prohibit him from getting cheese on his whopper. and judging by his comments, I think Fed himself is in favor of increasing prize money for lesser tournaments.
 

ChanceEncounter

Professional
you realize that if not for the futures/challenger events , future superstars would take longer to develop if they would develop at all?

they spend a few years in the minors getting their games together.

they dont just appear fully formed in the slams out of nowhere.

imagine if every junior who turned pro had to try and make a way in the masters and slams with no way to face lesser quality to get their games together.

but who cares, futures and challenger events dont matter.
Ok, but there's no shortage of players willing to get paid almost nothing in order to get a chance at becoming a future superstar. That's the point.

On the flip side, because top tennis players get paid so much more money, there's more economic incentive for people to improve.

There's thousands of people willing to move to LA to try to become an actor. The vast majority of them never amount to anything, but even the slight chance of success is enough economic incentive for them to take that chance.

It's no different in tennis. It's a game with a lot of upward mobility and a high degree of differentiation. Because of the large paychecks players like Federer get, more people are going to try to be like him.
 

flymeng

Semi-Pro
You want the minor league players to make more money. Fair enough.

Any proposals on where the money comes from?

Money comes from fans. Fans buy tickets, food and souvenirs at the tournaments. When companies see fans, they want to advertise in the tournaments. Then, comes the sponsorship money. If we can get more fans from China and India, that would help the sport.

That's why you see Asian players at the NBA and English soccer leagues. Not to say Asian players aren't good but it is a marketing strategy to increase viewership. It all comes down to the mighty $.
 
Nice of you to be so generous with Fed's money........

More like the money of the fans who paid to see the tournament that would be given to Federer should he win.

It doesn't seem like so much to ask. Go from (example) 27 million to 25 million.
Only a difference of 2 miliion, but that could be an extra 1000 dollars in some players pockets.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Money comes from fans. Fans buy tickets, food and souvenirs at the tournaments. When companies see fans, they want to advertise in the tournaments. Then, comes the sponsorship money. If we can get more fans from China and India, that would help the sport.

That's why you see Asian players at the NBA and English soccer leagues. Not to say Asian players aren't good but it is a marketing strategy to increase viewership. It all comes down to the mighty $.

Do you know what would (have) seriously helped? If Federer (and Nadal) would have been American.

Don't believe me? Look at what happened to golf and golfers incomes when Tiger came on the scene. Now, what if Tiger had been Swiss instead of American?

Tennis NEEDS an American superstar to generate the big bucks.
 

ChanceEncounter

Professional
Nice of you to be so generous with Fed's money........

Exactly. It's easy for people to say people who make a lot of money should give up some. Why don't they give up some of their money for these people? I'm sure, compared to some people in the world, you make a lot of money too.
 

ChanceEncounter

Professional
More like the money of the fans who paid to see the tournament that would be given to Federer should he win.

It doesn't seem like so much to ask. Go from (example) 27 million to 25 million.
Only a difference of 2 miliion, but that could be an extra 1000 dollars in some players pockets.

Right so Federer, who generates waaaaaaaayyy more money for these tournaments than Sam Grothe, should be obligated to give his money to Sam Grothe instead.

Players like Nadal and Federer are already being underpaid for how much money they're making for tournaments. You're just suggesting they be underpaid further so the overpaid people who are worth nothing to tournaments get paid better.

If Sam Grothe wants to make more money playing tennis, there's an easy solution. Win.
 
Exactly. It's easy for people to say people who make a lot of money should give up some. Why don't they give up some of their money for these people? I'm sure, compared to some people in the world, you make a lot of money too.

I don't have a job:)

Still, since you brought Fed up..
He has a lifetime contract with Wilson, endorsements with Nike, and other secondary sources of income.

Since Fed is the one that wants to increase the prize money of lower level tournaments, I'm sure he contemplated that it may come out of his paycheck.

Its like welfare. You're essential paying for someone else's living expenses, but (at least hopefully) when that person is well, they contribute to the economy.

Take a little money from everyone (and I mean a little bit relative to what they make) and distribute it to players who are down so that they can get back up and contribute to the sport.
 

Crisp

Professional
I think if we walked in a player like SAMs shoes we would have a much better appreciation of all the hard work that goes into achieving a ranking like his. As he stated in his article.. He has many of the same expenses as the top guys and barely breaks even. I am presently coaching a player that I hope gives tour life a crack and I hope the $$issue is not one that prevents them from trying. The very pointy end is making great money but I feel it could be much more reasonably spread.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
I don't care much for comparisons with golf or other sports when it comes to how much money people make, or don't make, in tennis.

They all knew that long before they turned pro. They took a gamble playing tennis instead of learning another trade, took a gamble that their body would hold up and took a gamble that they actually had the talent and commitment to succeed.

Sam Groth simply hasn't shown that he's good enough. If he miraculously won the US Open he wouldn't be here talking about the toil of the 250-ers. He rolled the dice by travelling there and lost, simple as that.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
Ok, but there's no shortage of players willing to get paid almost nothing in order to get a chance at becoming a future superstar. That's the point.

On the flip side, because top tennis players get paid so much more money, there's more economic incentive for people to improve.

There's thousands of people willing to move to LA to try to become an actor. The vast majority of them never amount to anything, but even the slight chance of success is enough economic incentive for them to take that chance.

It's no different in tennis. It's a game with a lot of upward mobility and a high degree of differentiation. Because of the large paychecks players like Federer get, more people are going to try to be like him.


too bad most wont be born with the sheer talent it takes to be fed.

you act like its just a matter of hard work. if that were the case, you'd be a minor league pro too, but you arent are you?



as I said before, people act like the futurs and challenger events have no value when they do. they allow future superstars to mature their games.

if a player's talent level maxes out at that level, sure no one is saying they should make millions a year, but they can make a living wage no?

and what about the real elephant in the room. players in the top 100 still not making money.
 
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