Sam Groth: "I make no money on tour"

[guitarplayer]

What is so bad about socialism?

It works for some people.

It works for you, as you admitted that you don't have a job, but I need to work so you can have some of my money! How about I quit working my ass off and you get a job for a while? Ouch!!

 

[BreakPoint]

its easy to be profitable when you pay people .90 a day.

Getting rid of communism allowed people to own companies and become entrepreneurial. That's why China is where it is today versus 35 years ago.

 

[r2473]

Don't agree with this. Tennis players aren't doing enough to engage the fans - more autograph events and public appearances and media interviews.

If you want Sam Groth's autograph, I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.

Golfers aren't doing more autographs and public appearances than tennis players. So I don't think that's really it.

What tennis needed was for Federer to have been American instead of Swiss.

But then, I couldn't find a court (just like I couldn't get on a golf course during the Tiger boom).

Personally, I like tennis as a niche sport. Suits me much better.

 

[SLD76]

True. Not sure where it sits now but #100 in golf made $800k the year before Tiger got his Thanksgiving night beat down. The tennis guy was barely $100k.

Golf did away with qualifiers - so the guys who don't make the tour play the minor tour - much lower expenses.

Don't agree with this. Tennis players aren't doing enough to engage the fans - more autograph events and public appearances and media interviews.[/QUOTE]

what else should they do? Reality tv and live in the neighborhood cul de sac?

 

[DoctorBackhand]

It works for you, as you admitted that you don't have a job, but I need to work so you can have some of my money! How about I quit working my ass off and you get a job for a while? Ouch!!

Teenager without working papers.
You could attempt to ask someones age before insulting someone. Also, glad to see you noticed the smiley face sarc mark.

Jeez.

Also, where did I say it works for me. I said some people.
Why you felt the need to get personal over how to pay lower ranked tennis players is beyond me. If you mistook the attempt at humor to lighten the mood as some sort of personal attack against your political philosophy or something I apologize for the misunderstanding. Otherwise, please re-evaluate what you just said. Even we kiddies don't appreciate slander.

 

[West Coast Ace]

what else should they do? Reality tv and live in the neighborhood cul de sac?

Sports talk radio for starters. I've heard PMac and James Blake on major shows (like Rome) - that's it. Rome has all kinds of PGA guys on - not just the top names. He likes them because they show up on time and tell great stories. Makes them look like regular guys - not sons of rich guys - pretty sure the average person still thinks tennis is a rich person's sport. Why can't the ATP media honks get the guys on more gigs?

Although your idea is interesting: Gulbis on The Bachelor?

 

[SLD76]

Getting rid of communism allowed people to own companies and become entrepreneurial. That's why China is where it is today versus 35 years ago.

care to comment on the sweatshops that allow companies like walmart to import goods( further hindering us manufacturing) at rock bottom prices? care to comment on the apple factory in china where workers were threatening mass suicides because of working conditions?

Again, its easy to be profitable when you are willing to treat your citizenry as little more than slave labor, a direction I fear america is headed towards because of our lack of manufacturing and consumer economy.

speaking of walmart, you realize that nationwide, they have the highest number of employees on state benefits because of low wages for a major corporation, yes?

so walmart makes the taxpayer pay multiple times..they move into a market assured of tax breaks and concessions, then burden the state by not paying people a living wage and/or not enough hours and having employees rely on state/federal benefits to get by.

 

[BreakPoint]

That's a little harsh and over the top. Does everyone who somehow wrangles a wildcard or lucky loser into an ATP event deserve some level of support and our sympathy? If not one tournament, how many? 5? 10? 12? There is always a supply of young guys willing to take a shot at the tour - if some fail, I don't see the problem. There was a good article about Robert Kendrick, he's been grinding since '03 - 35-77 lifetime on the ATP tour - and tons of Challengers. Author pointed out all the contacts he's made meeting people - he'll land in a job when it's over.

If you're true fan of tennis, you'll go watch a pro play regardless of who it is, especially if it's free, because they still play a very high level of tennis and are better than any of us here will ever be. Just look at the packed crowds on the outside courts at the US Open for matches between two "nobodies". No, they're not all family and friends. Those are real tennis fans. Someone who only bothers watching matches if a top 4 player is playing is not a real tennis fan. They are only a fan of a particular player but not the sport itself.

 

[citybert]

Does anyone know the revenue share with players and atp and tournament owners? If player get under 40% that is pretty much robbery. But toplay the other side everyone is always complaining that some pro athletes make too much and tank games and the end of the season. If tennis players made crazy $$ I wonder if that would happen

 

[SLD76]

Sports talk radio for starters. I've heard PMac and James Blake on major shows (like Rome) - that's it. Rome has all kinds of PGA guys on - not just the top names. He likes them because they show up on time and tell great stories. Makes them look like regular guys - not sons of rich guys - pretty sure the average person still thinks tennis is a rich person's sport. Why can't the ATP media honks get the guys on more gigs?

Although your idea is interesting: Gulbis on The Bachelor?

he has PGA guys on his show because golf is more popular. Golf is more popular because Tiger dominated for so many years.

mayhaps...just mayhaps, if more money was available for developing tennis players, we'd have another great american champion to increase tennis' profile in the US?

 

[Bartelby]

More accurately known as the low wages state - one where corporations reduce wages and conditions to the point where there is no incentive to work.

They are both about sharing the wealth and the government taking the money and re-distributing it as they choose and having the government take care of you, i.e., "nanny state". No incentive to work since everyone knows the government will still take care of you.

 

[PeteD]

Sam's story is the reason why the former great tennis nations of the West can't compete any more.

The economic cost to the cohort of young with great tennis potential is seen by them as too high and they venture into careers or choose sports where they can earn more money.

Without these first world stars the advertising dollar flows elsewhere and the game loses traction, so the economic reality is that if the game wants to prosper it needs to pay viable levels of pay to at least the top 200 players.

I agree. Sam would have had a decent position back when Australia was a longstanding tennis powerhouse. How much could it have cost when virtually every kid in the country got tennis instruction? Now the Aussies are more "conservative" and their tennis is on life support. OK, I agree Sam Stosur is having more good days lately. After Sam, there's Lleyton, who looks more and more he's on actual life support. Then there's Bernie. Good luck there. Maybe time to splurge on a bit more government funding? People love tennis, and they can play their whole lives, at all levels. No other sport offers that.

 

[SLD76]

If you're true fan of tennis, you'll go watch a pro play regardless of who it is, especially if it's free, because they still play a very high level of tennis and are better than any of us here will ever be. Just look at the packed crowds on the outside courts at the US Open for matches between two "nobodies". No, they're not all family and friends. Those are real tennis fans. Someone who only bothers watching matches if a top 4 player is playing is not a real tennis fan. They are only a fan of a particular player but not the sport itself.

quoted for truth..one of best memories of tennis is the time I walked the US grounds and was right up at the fence watching courier practice.

 

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

it is all about percentage of the prize pool. At this point, the split is hopelessly top heavy.

 

[The Wreck]

Double the prize money of all Challenger and Future events. Who would that hurt? It would do so much for the game, it's not even funny.

 

[West Coast Ace]

If you're true fan of tennis, ...

Then I pass your litmus test. I'll be at Shanghai from the 1st ball to the last. And have been the last 7 years. Same with all the other tournaments I go to (averaged 4 per year for the last 6-7 years).

But I don't want to hear a sob story from some dude who got what I will conservatively estimate to be $1 million USD in one on one tennis instruction. He had his shot. Didn't work out. Time for Plan B. Trying to huckster more money out of tournament directors is ridiculous.

 

[BreakPoint]

care to comment on the sweatshops that allow companies like walmart to import goods( further hindering us manufacturing) at rock bottom prices? care to comment on the apple factory in china where workers were committing suicides at alarming rates.

Again, its easy to be profitable when you are willing to treat your citizenry as little more than slave labor, a direction I fear america is headed towards because of our lack of manufacturing and consumer economy.

speaking of walmart, you realize that nationwide, they have the highest number of employees on state benefits because of low wages for a major corporation, yes?

so walmart makes the taxpayer pay multiple times..they move into a market assured of tax breaks and concessions, then burden the state by not paying people a living wage and/or not enough hours and having employees rely on state/federal benefits to get by.

Yeah, and I'd bet you wish you were as rich as the top shareholders of Wal-Mart or Apple.

You know what would make the taxpayers pay even more? If Wal-Mart fired all of its employees! But then there wouldn't be any taxpayers left at all, would there? People should feel fortunate that they have a job at all. Isn't it still better than the millions of people that are unemployed?

How do you think this country got its start? Oh yeah, we had real slaves who didn't even make $1 an hour and were chained and whipped regularly.

And if it's so easy to be profitable, why don't you do it? There's a thing called competition. BTW, nobody forces anyone to work at an Apple factory. Those workers feel very lucky to have jobs at all.

 

[SLD76]

Then I pass your litmus test. I'll be at Shanghai from the 1st ball to the last. And have been the last 7 years. Same with all the other tournaments I go to (averaged 4 per year for the last 6-7 years).

But I don't want to hear a sob story from some dude who got what I will conservatively estimate to be $1 million USD in one on one tennis instruction. He had his shot. Didn't work out. Time for Plan B. Trying to huckster more money out of tournament directors is ridiculous.

and out of curiousity..how many years did you spend on the pro tour?

sounds like sour grapes a bit, for someone with ace in their handle.

 

[SLD76]

Yeah, and I'd bet you wish you were as rich as the top shareholders of Wal-Mart or Apple.

You know what would make the taxpayers pay even more? If Wal-Mart fired all of its employees! But then there wouldn't be any taxpayers left at all, would there? People should feel fortunate that they have a job at all. Isn't it still better than the millions of people that are unemployed?

How do you think this country got its start? Oh yeah, we had real slaves who didn't even make $1 an hour and were chained and whipped regularly.

And if it's so easy to be profitable, why don't you do it? There's a thing called competition. BTW, nobody forces anyone to work at an Apple factory. Those workers feel very lucky to have jobs at all.

ROFL..so you cant respond with any facts so you respond with bluster. Its ok, I know you didnt know what you were talking about with your blithe comment about china's profitability.

But hey, money is being made, damn the human cost, right?

as per your bolded I dont know if you are being sarcastic or stupid or both.

one more fact that you cant handle: Walmart makes many of its suppliers that it does business with become "business partners"

once they become partners, walmart reserves the right to rake over their books and demand they lower prices.
less money for the company but more money for walmart. Suppliers cant refuse because walmart is a huge supplier.
race to the bottom commences.

what say you?

ETA: I have a friend in Germany who told me that Walmart tried to expand there, but was run out run a rail because they tried to run the store the same way they would in america. Darn those whacky socialists.

 

[Bartelby]

The idea of a 'nanny state' is also another term invented by the left and misappropriated by the right.

It originally refers to the right's propensity to want to regulate people's morality by censoring books and the like.

A nanny tells you to do this and not do that in order to be a good boy.

A nanny state doesn't even fit the meaning the right gives it.

 

[BreakPoint]

More accurately known as the low wages state - one where corporations reduce wages and conditions to the point where there is no incentive to work.

You mean high tax state. You can make huge wages, but it the government taxes most of it away, there's no incentive to work nor to start a business. That's why communism was doomed from the start. People are motivated by money. It's human nature.

 

[Bartelby]

They are forced through economic necessity and they do feel lucky but they also commit suicide due to the harsh regimen.

Yeah, and I'd bet you wish you were as rich as the top shareholders of Wal-Mart or Apple.

You know what would make the taxpayers pay even more? If Wal-Mart fired all of its employees! But then there wouldn't be any taxpayers left at all, would there? People should feel fortunate that they have a job at all. Isn't it still better than the millions of people that are unemployed?

How do you think this country got its start? Oh yeah, we had real slaves who didn't even make $1 an hour and were chained and whipped regularly.

And if it's so easy to be profitable, why don't you do it? There's a thing called competition. BTW, nobody forces anyone to work at an Apple factory. Those workers feel very lucky to have jobs at all.

 

[Bartelby]

America has higher than necessary taxes to pay for its empire and the vast military costs associated with it.

Almost none of this higher tax burden is borne by those who have money, but by the middle class.

It also hands out trillions to the failed banking class because they control the government behind the scenes.

You mean high tax state. You can make huge wages, but it the government taxes most of it away, there's no incentive to work nor to start a business. That's why communism was doomed from the start. People are motivated by money. It's human nature.

 

[flymeng]

If you're true fan of tennis, you'll go watch a pro play regardless of who it is, especially if it's free, because they still play a very high level of tennis and are better than any of us here will ever be. Just look at the packed crowds on the outside courts at the US Open for matches between two "nobodies". No, they're not all family and friends. Those are real tennis fans. Someone who only bothers watching matches if a top 4 player is playing is not a real tennis fan. They are only a fan of a particular player but not the sport itself.

I agree. I am a tennis fan, not just Roger or Rafa. The players at the futures are solid. I will never be able to play tennis at their level. I am sure most of the posters here won't too. They are fun to watch. I have been to majors, masters, 500, 250, challengers and futures, I enjoyed the smaller tournaments more. It has an intimate feeling. Also, you may have a chance to see an unknown player who could be the next Federer. BTW, I saw Yanina Wickmayer at a Florida challenger in 2009, she was in the semis at USO that same year.

 

[BreakPoint]

ROFL..so you cant respond with any facts so you respond with bluster. Its ok, I know you didnt know what you were talking about with your blithe comment about china's profitability.

But hey, money is being made, damn the human cost, right?

as per your bolded I dont know if you are being sarcastic or stupid or both.

one more fact that you cant handle: Walmart makes many of its suppliers that it does business with become "business partners"

once they become partners, walmart reserves the right to rake over their books and demand they lower prices.
less money for the company but more money for walmart. Suppliers cant refuse because walmart is a huge supplier.
race to the bottom commences.

what say you?

You said China had slave labor. Ask a real slave toiling away on a plantation if he'd be willing to trade places with a factory worker in China.

Oh, and if you don't like the low wages in China, why is it that I doubt you'd be willing to pay $300 for a pair of Nike tennis shoes? Somebody has to make the shoes, and the American public is unwilling to pay big bucks for them.

 

[r2473]

it is all about percentage of the prize pool. At this point, the split is hopelessly top heavy.

It's a great idea in theory. And from a "we're all one big family" point of view, it would work.

But in reality, you have to convince the revenue generators to support the bottom tier. And they have no real incentive to do it beyond some high minded "good of the game" idea.

Its easy to talk about ideals and doing what right, but much harder when it means less money in your pocket, when you are the one that is really generating it. Its tough.

And if we look at golf, the top golfers didn't take a pay cut. The size of the pool simply increased, so they took less of a pay raise. When the money is rolling in ("thank Tiger"), this is an easier thing to get passed.

 

[r2473]

America has higher than necessary taxes to pay for its empire and the vast military costs associated with it.

Almost none of this higher tax burden is borne by those who have money, but by the middle class..

You should check your figures and see who is REALLY paying the largest share of the tax burden.

 

[SLD76]

America has higher than necessary taxes to pay for its empire and the vast military costs associated with it.

Almost none of this higher tax burden is borne by those who have money, but by the middle class.

It also hands out trillions to the failed banking class because they control the government behind the scenes.

what middle class?

it is surely shrinking...

 

[guitarplayer]

Regardless of all these posts......I and most people would never pay to watch Sam play tennis. And that my friends...is the problem.

 

[BreakPoint]

America has higher than necessary taxes to pay for its empire and the vast military costs associated with it.

Almost none of this higher tax burden is borne by those who have money, but by the middle class.

It also hands out trillions to the failed banking class because they control the government behind the scenes.

If the banks had failed, the middle class and everyone else would have been much worse off.

 

[SLD76]

You should check your figures and see who is REALLY paying the largest share of the tax burden.

Ok Ill bite.

I have 100mil dollars..I earn half that each year thru investments /income what have you.

I pay 15 mil a year in taxes.

a high number, yes?

but relative to the income/money i have available, its a low tax rate.

If you have 100,000 a year but pay 10,000 a year in taxes, i daresay you wont starve

if you have 30,000 a year and pay 5k in taxes, that is a sizeable chunk no?

 

[SLD76]

If the banks had failed, the middle class and everyone else would have been much worse off.

and the middle class paid for the bank bailout which ruined the global economy because of their own folly.

and since the bailout banks are still foreclosing and not lending money..except to other banks.

rofl...its like rescuing a drunk driver then handing him the keys to a ferrari.


meanwhile the right wants to eliminate entitlements that people's taxes pay for so the banking class can have more money to gamble with.

 

[Bartelby]

Rather unintentionaly funny as Nike has just introduced a $300 basketball shoe.

You said China had slave labor. Ask a real slave toiling away on a plantation if he'd be willing to trade places with a factory worker in China.

Oh, and if you don't like the low wages in China, why is it that I doubt you'd be willing to pay $300 for a pair of Nike tennis shoes? Somebody has to make the shoes, and the American public is unwilling to pay big bucks for them.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

What is so bad about socialism?

It works for some people.

Margaret Thatcher once said "the problem with socialism is that eventually you'll run out of other people's money."

 

[SLD76]

You said China had slave labor. Ask a real slave toiling away on a plantation if he'd be willing to trade places with a factory worker in China.

Oh, and if you don't like the low wages in China, why is it that I doubt you'd be willing to pay $300 for a pair of Nike tennis shoes? Somebody has to make the shoes, and the American public is unwilling to pay big bucks for them.

ROFLMAO!~

so now we are comparing near slave labor to actual slave labor, that is your argument?

ROFLMAO!

And Ive never paid 300 bucks for sneakers.

Ive never paid 300 bucks for shoes period, try again.

Yes people are willing to pay because hey, money is being made..damn the human cost right.

wow your actual argument was sure china is crappy, but at least the workers arent actual slaves.

rofl.

 

[DoctorBackhand]

Regardless of all these posts......I and most people would never pay to watch Sam play tennis. And that my friends...is the problem.

Then let me ask you something?

Who will people pay to see once the big 3 retire? There doesn't seem to be an up and coming player that has captured anyone's attention yet.

Once the field opens up, I'd pay to watch anyone.

 

[SLD76]

Margaret Thatcher once said "the problem with socialism is that eventually you'll run out of other people's money."

and yet germany is one of the healthiest economies in the world

iceland actually jailed their fraudelent bankers that sunk their economy.

 

[Bartelby]

The revenue generators don't pay the lower tier and moreover they are advocating that higher increases go the early rounds.

The fact is that the revenue generators have little power in tennis; the national associations, tournament owners, player management and media companies are in control.

It's a great idea in theory. And from a "we're all one big family" point of view, it would work.

But in reality, you have to convince the revenue generators to support the bottom tier. And they have no real incentive to do it beyond some high minded "good of the game" idea.

Its easy to talk about ideals and doing what right, but much harder when it means less money in your pocket, when you are the one that is really generating it. Its tough.

And if we look at golf, the top golfers didn't take a pay cut. The size of the pool simply increased, so they took less of a pay raise. When the money is rolling in ("thank Tiger"), this is an easier thing to get passed.

 

[BreakPoint]

ETA: I have a friend in Germany who told me that Walmart tried to expand there, but was run out run a rail because they tried to run the store the same way they would in america. Darn those whacky socialists.

Do you know most stores in Germany are forced to close at around 5pm or 6pm, just when most people are off work and can go shopping? I wouldn't agree to that if I were Wal-Mart, either.

If you don't like capitalism so much, maybe you should move to another country? Because capitalism is dog-eat-dog. That competition is what makes it work.

 

[Bartelby]

If she were alive today she'd say that about merchant banks.

Margaret Thatcher once said "the problem with socialism is that eventually you'll run out of other people's money."

 

[BreakPoint]

Rather unintentionaly funny as Nike has just introduced a $300 basketball shoe.

I know, but what if EVERY shoe sold by Nike was at least $300? Would you keep buying?

 

[r2473]

Ok Ill bite.

I have 100mil dollars..I earn half that each year thru investments /income what have you.

I pay 15 mil a year in taxes.

a high number, yes?

but relative to the income/money i have available, its a low tax rate.

If you have 100,000 a year but pay 10,000 a year in taxes, i daresay you wont starve

if you have 30,000 a year and pay 5k in taxes, that is a sizeable chunk no?

I'll tell you what, do a google search on this and get back to me. See what you find. Make no mistake, the rich pay "at least" their fair share in taxes.

Now, if you want to talk about the growing income disparity and the shrinking middle class, I'll probably be more sympathetic. But oddly enough, it is much the same story as Sam Groth. Guess who generates the wealth in the country? It ain't me, just like Sam doesn't generate the wealth for the tour.

What do we do about it? Well, that's the 20 trillion dollar question.

 

[mike84]

its simple.

take some of that revenue and increase futures prizes.

how pathetic is it that futures event winner gets $1,250-$9,000

 

[Bartelby]

If the banks had not paid government to allow them to turn into theft-driven gambling houses they would not have had to be bailed out.

More importantly, why are wealthy banks your only exception to your opposition to government charity?

What happened to the moral hazard nonsense when it came to banks?

Why nanny banks?

If the banks had failed, the middle class and everyone else would have been much worse off.

 

[SLD76]

I'll tell you what, do a google search on this and get back to me. See what you find. Make no mistake, the rich pay "at least" their fair share in taxes.

Now, if you want to talk about the growing income disparity and the shrinking middle class, I'll probably be more sympathetic. But oddly enough, it is much the same story as Sam Groth. Guess who generates the wealth in the country? It ain't me, just like Sam doesn't generate the wealth for the tour.

What do we do about it? Well, that's the 20 trillion dollar question.

hmm, how about you do a google search on concentration of wealth in the US since the 1950's..u remember the 50's? the most prosperous era in US history?

taxes for those making a million or more was 90%, :shock:

so...as years passed and taxes got lower, banking was deregulated, manufacturing went overseas and all of a sudden the US is in the crapper.

coincidence?

and again If you are worth billions and you pay 20mil in taxes? thats a write off


what would you rather...be worth 200mil and pay 20 mil in taxes a year or earn 45k and pay 8k in taxes per year?

 

[BreakPoint]

and the middle class paid for the bank bailout which ruined the global economy because of their own folly.

and since the bailout banks are still foreclosing and not lending money..except to other banks.

rofl...its like rescuing a drunk driver then handing him the keys to a ferrari.


meanwhile the right wants to eliminate entitlements that people's taxes pay for so the banking class can have more money to gamble with.

How did the middle class pay for the bailouts?

The banks paid the money back with interest. The taxpayers MADE MONEY from the TARP bailout.

Oh, and dumb greedy people overpaying too much for houses they couldn't afford with no money down and no ability to ever repay the loans because they thought they could make a killing buying and selling houses had nothing to do with the financial turmoil they caused?

 

[SLD76]

I know, but what if EVERY shoe sold by Nike was at least $300? Would you keep buying?

not if I couldnt afford it no.

also, not everyone is a slave to consumerism


but you are exhibit A in what I have said before..the US is a consumer economy.

why do u think smart phones and new tvs come out every few years?

 

[SLD76]

How did the middle class pay for the bailouts?

The banks paid the money back with interest. The taxpayers MADE MONEY from the TARP bailout.

Oh, and dumb greedy people overpaying too much for houses they couldn't afford with no money down and no ability to ever repay the loans because they thought they could make a killing buying and selling houses had nothing to do with the financial turmoil they caused?

and who pushed the loans on the dumb greedy people?

could it be the banks and fanny and freddy?

you can afford this loan..the market is sure to go up..its an investment for your family...

also, who told hte bankers to bundle the worthless debt into a commodity?

 

[Talker]

If the money is restructured the maybe #250 will make enough to pay expenses and then a little bit extra.

But then #300 won't have enough and will have his story of how hard it is.

There will always be a ranking where it's not enough.

Bringing up the problem is good though, maybe some ideas will come out with something to help them to some degree.

 

[Bartelby]

This is the nonsense they tell you, but its simply an accountancy fiddle to suggest this.

Taxpayers made nothing out of the bailout.

You wage a war against moral hazard when it comes to people, but when it comes to corporations you advocate a nanny state.

How did the middle class pay for the bailouts?

The banks paid the money back with interest. The taxpayers MADE MONEY from the TARP bailout.

Oh, and dumb greedy people overpaying too much for houses they couldn't afford with no money down and no ability to ever repay the loans because they thought they could make a killing buying and selling houses had nothing to do with the financial turmoil they caused?