Sampras and the French Open: a misunderstanding of mythical proportions

Yeah, exactly.

Also, don't even get me started on who Federer lost all his FO finals to. Without the absolute hands down greatest clay courter of all time Fed is easily a 3-5 FO champion and up there with Lendl/Wilander/Kuerten in the top 5 clay courters of all time, wouldn't even rule out Fed challenging Borg's numbers on clay, that's how good he was on clay in his prime. Easily the 2nd best CC in 2005-2010/11ish depending on what you value (that 2011 FO SF win was pretty epic).

Even if you only consider 1992-1996 as prime Sampras on clay he struggled against tons of different players, he lost to
Agassi (won 9 games), Bruguera (pretty easy win including a breadstick), Courier, Schaller (who?), Kafelnikov. He'd beat one another was waiting in the next round, there are easily 10-15 guys in the draw capable of beating him. And if you take guys who won the FO in 1992-2000 they still have less FO's combined than Nadal alone.

Wasn't the case with prime Fed - he was reaching one final after another easily capable of beating every clay courter worth something at the time including Djokovic, Coria, Moya, Nalbandian, Davydenko, Del Potro, Soderling, Wawrinka, Monfils, Murray etc.
I agree here as well. I would say Federer and Djokovic could very well be about equal to Borg without Nadal and without each other at the same time. The last point is also important, even though they only met twice at RG.

Really, if their serious clay competition would have been only Vilas, Pannatta and a very early Lendl I would almost guarantee they would get 6 titles as well.

Back to Sampras: I think his best chance to win RG was actually 1994. This was the only year when he was dominant everywhere and had just won Rome before (on a faster than usual court though, remember Becker was in the final). And then I think he felt the pressure of potentially winning all 4 Slams in a row.

1996 is a bit overrated IMO. Yes, he reached the SF, but after an endless struggle. People say he was unlucky to lose to Kafelnikov due to to fatigue (after easily beating him at the 1995 Davis Cup final). However, it was his own fault to play three 5-setters before. Especially Todd Martin shouldn’t be such a big problem if someone wants to win RG. But as you said: That's just how it is when 10-15 guys in the draw can beat you.
 
Yeah, exactly.

Also, don't even get me started on who Federer lost all his FO finals to. Without the absolute hands down greatest clay courter of all time Fed is easily a 3-5 FO champion and up there with Lendl/Wilander/Kuerten in the top 5 clay courters of all time, wouldn't even rule out Fed challenging Borg's numbers on clay, that's how good he was on clay in his prime. Easily the 2nd best CC in 2005-2010/11ish depending on what you value (that 2011 FO SF win was pretty epic).

Even if you only consider 1992-1996 as prime Sampras on clay he struggled against tons of different players, he lost to
Agassi (won 9 games), Bruguera (pretty easy win including a breadstick), Courier, Schaller (who?), Kafelnikov. He'd beat one another was waiting in the next round, there are easily 10-15 guys in the draw capable of beating him. And if you take guys who won the FO in 1992-2000 they still have less FO's combined than Nadal alone.

Wasn't the case with prime Fed - he was reaching one final after another easily capable of beating every clay courter worth something at the time including Djokovic, Coria, Moya, Nalbandian, Davydenko, Del Potro, Soderling, Wawrinka, Monfils, Murray etc.
Fed devotee making up fake stories. Fed never played Murray on clay
 
Sampras would have won the 1999 US Open if he had not been injured.
Agassi was lucky that time.
I tend to agree here. At least I’m sure he would have beaten Agassi in a direct matchup there. But on the other hand, he was the favourite in many of those hardcourt Slams, and still he was 0/10 between 1997 US Open and 2002 Australian Open (or 0/8 if we consider his withdrawals). His problem was that he could always lose to a rather random player on a bad day despite being always great against Agassi on faster surfaces.

By the way, if you are interested, a few days ago I heard an interesting interview with Pete during an Agassi match at the 1999 US Open.

 
Clay court era depth took a nose dive around 2006'ish IMO. With the likes Ferrero, Moya, Coria all pretty much done. The likes of Davydenko and Nalbandian were good on clay but not world beaters. Nadal by himself made it probably the toughest era to win clay titles in but the rest of the field was pretty weak. Djokovic was strong in 08-09 and then 11 onwards but Federer fell off pretty soon afterwards.
 
Sampras would have won the 1999 US Open if he had not been injured.
Agassi was lucky that time.

Sampras had bad luck with injuries at the USO, injured in the SF with Rafter in 1998 too - no sure thing he wins that one anyway but with his 94 and 99 injuries as well he was quite unfortunate. Probably has at least 6 titles and maybe 7 with no injuries. Maybe Agassi would have 0 too :X3:
 
Honestly I think only having 2 AOs should be more annoying for Sampras fans than trying to defend not having a RG where he was basically a sitting duck.
 
Clay court era depth took a nose dive around 2006'ish IMO. With the likes Ferrero, Moya, Coria all pretty much done. The likes of Davydenko and Nalbandian were good on clay but not world beaters. Nadal by himself made it probably the toughest era to win clay titles in but the rest of the field was pretty weak. Djokovic was strong in 08-09 and then 11 onwards but Federer fell off pretty soon afterwards.
The BO5 format really helped great CC matches we had stacks of them in 2005-2006.
2009 and 2011 in particular of the later years had a scary good clay field. RG also very good in 2013,2015 and 2019 even though the M1000s were not as good.
 
The BO5 format really helped great CC matches we had stacks of them in 2005-2006.
2009 and 2011 in particular of the later years had a scary good clay field.

Yeah I think 2009 and 2011 were good with the Big 3 plus some other guys stepping up. Not sure I'd say it was scary good lol.

I think the clay field could have been insane in the early 00's if not for Ferrero, Kuerten and Coria suffering injuries. Could have had a genuine "Big 5" on clay with fire QF's and SF's to go along with the big finals. Sadly not meant to be.
 
Well yeah but if Agassi wasn't spent after the Becker match he could've easily won the 1995 US Open final, his form was insane and actually beat Sampras in a HC Slam final earlier that year.

PETE's semi against Courier required more effort actually, in terms of shots/time played. Of course, Agassi played the second semi and that has some effect, but it should've been negligible for a man at his physical peak.
 
What’s even more strange: After being 25 he didn’t win a hardcourt Slam as well, except of course the last tournament in his career, the 2002 US Open when he was 31.

Between Australian Open 1997 and that US Open he "only" won Wimbledon.

I mainly blame Annacone for his late failures. He made him a total net-rusher who couldn’t rallye anymore. If you watch Sampras matches from 1990-1997 you see that he originally was an all-court player.

And still he never skipped RG in his career, so surely he did care about it. In fact, during his career he was known as someone who only carers about tennis and nothing besides it (in contrast to guys like Agassi etc.).

"Sampras didn’t care about tournament XY" was a strange metamorphosis he gone through years after his career when some of his fans were in need of lame excuses why Federer could overtake him in everything.


PETE's AO failures are pretty disappointing indeed, total non-factor outside of 1993-97 except 2000. USO failures mostly had to do with physicality though. Not fully fit in 1994/98/99, ran out of gas in 2001. Fedr been experiencing the same though at an older age, hasn't arrived at the USO in good physical form since 2015.
 
PETE's semi against Courier required more effort actually, in terms of shots/time played. Of course, Agassi played the second semi and that has some effect, but it should've been negligible for a man at his physical peak.
Of course Agassi played himself silly by winning 4 tournaments before the USO while PETE took it easy
 
In fact, had Sampars adjusted his game to suit clay as well then I don't think he would have won more than 8 slams (the year at No. 1 would have been compromised too) just like Agassi, so something had to give and given that most courts were fast, it made sense to have a game that suited fast courts than slow. He made the call he saw fit the most given his goals. If anything, that was a very clever and well thought decision.
this.

the fans of the big 3 on here conveniently ignore that surface/ball conditions were much more differentiated during the 90s, so Sampras' situation was very different to Fedalovic's.

as you said, he tried to win RG until 1996. afterwards he essentially gave up on it / focused on Wimbly. this topic is however so hot only for these fans who ignore the differences to today.

I think it’s too early to come up to a conclusion about this difficult matter.
We need like a dozen threads more to get a clear picture.
:-D
 
Sampras just addressed the FO in an interview which was posted today:

“How much does it hurt not having won in Paris? In the end of my career it bothered me.
Conditions were tough for me. But most of all, it was a mental thing. I always had an enormous pressure there. Wimbledon or US Open were like my home. I headed into the court and I felt light. In Paris, I was blocked and results could be seen. It can be very hot and dry in Paris. So balls bounce high.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.**...loss-to-roger-federer-was-the-end-of-an-era-/
 
It’s not complicated. He was a fast court guy. Plain and simple. Oh - and his serve wasn’t a blast, it was a thing of beautify with varied spin and pace. But the agenda you set is clear..that’s fine.
 
After all these years of not posting your actual picture in the "your picture" thread now you do it as your avatar? The escalation is real.

You had a chance to see my picture for like a month too but I had it taken down.

I did post my picture but not on the 'your picture' thread. We had a deal that I'd post a picture of my full body image and you'd post yours. While I kept my end of the bargain, you bluffed me with that stupid picture of some random guy in a car.

And I did post some artistic pictures of my face too, mind you.

Anyway, post yours again. Why did you take it down? Surely you are anything but shy?
 
I did post my picture but not on the 'your picture' thread. We had a deal that I'd post a picture of my full body image and you'd post yours. While I kept my end of the bargain, you bluffed me with that stupid picture of some random guy in a car.
That was me in a car.
And I did post some artistic pictures of my face too, mind you.
See I don't really care about anything else but the face. I had my actual face out there.
Anyway, post yours again. Why did you take it down? Surely you are anything but shy?
And re my previous sentence I still think it's weird posting your own pictures here.
 
That was me in a car.

See I don't really care about anything else but the face. I had my actual face out there.

And re my previous sentence I still think it's weird posting your own pictures here.

Why do you have teeth? Because you tend to lie through your teeth.

Anyway, so all the more reasons why I shouldn't post may face picture here, right? Right.

And I had to laugh out loud at this, "See I don't really care about anything else but the face."

Don't make me laugh, man. (I deliberately want to sound like a man because you hate it so much)
 
Why do you have teeth? Because you tend to lie through your teeth.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Anyway, so all the more reasons why I shouldn't post may face picture here, right? Right.
I don't think I'm gonna reupload my picture so there's that. You can do whatever you want.
And I had to laugh out loud at this, "See I don't really care about anything else but the face."
Don't make me laugh, man. (I deliberately want to sound like a man because you hate it so much)
I meant here, not in general, dawg.
 
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I don't think I'm gonna reupload my picture so there's that. You can do whatever you want.

I meant here, not in general, dawg.

Btw, I noticed you tend to post your real picture every time I take a break. Why? WHY?

Are you afraid I might judge you? Are you that big a ...bird?

I will judge you though, rest assured.
 
Sampras just addressed the FO in an interview which was posted today:

“How much does it hurt not having won in Paris? In the end of my career it bothered me.
Conditions were tough for me. But most of all, it was a mental thing. I always had an enormous pressure there. Wimbledon or US Open were like my home. I headed into the court and I felt light. In Paris, I was blocked and results could be seen. It can be very hot and dry in Paris. So balls bounce high.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.**...loss-to-roger-federer-was-the-end-of-an-era-/
Yep, Pete had thalassemia minor and those conditions were like his Achilles heel...not that he would have had a Kuerten like career on the red stuff, but he could have definitely squeaked one out with the better dieting/treatments that are likely available now.
 
Sampras had bad luck with injuries at the USO, injured in the SF with Rafter in 1998 too - no sure thing he wins that one anyway but with his 94 and 99 injuries as well he was quite unfortunate. Probably has at least 6 titles and maybe 7 with no injuries. Maybe Agassi would have 0 too :X3:

Sampras against Federer in:
Wimbledon
US Open
WTF

10 matches in each of these tournaments, who wins?
:unsure:
 
Sampras against Federer in:
Wimbledon
US Open
WTF

10 matches in each of these tournaments, who wins?
:unsure:
Wimbledon - Modern or traditional? Pete takes traditional 7/10, modern is likely a split, or Fed takes 6/10
US Open - Same question. Traditional hard up to 2006ish would favor Pete 7/10, Current hard would be more in Fed's court, 7/10
WTF - PETE 7/10
 
Wimbledon - Modern or traditional? Pete takes traditional 7/10, modern is likely a split, or Fed takes 6/10
US Open - Same question. Traditional hard up to 2006ish would favor Pete 7/10, Current hard would be more in Fed's court, 7/10
WTF - PETE 7/10


how about against Djokovic in those tournaments?
 
Anyone who proclaims Sampras had no interest in winning the FO is delusional of the highest order

Any ATG would love to achieved the career grand slam rather than leaving a gaping hole in his/her resume.

It's like saying Lendl isn't interested in winning Wimbledon when he said "grass is for cows".:-D
 
Great article about Sampras and his griefs in the Parisian clay of Roland Garros (in Spanish, translated by me).
For those who want to read it in its original version and know Spanish, I leave the link:


Guillermo Ortiz: The Roland Garros of Pete Sampras
Published by Guillermo Ortiz

At 24, Pete Sampras had already achieved almost everything in the world of tennis: unlikely teen winner of the US Open in 1990, three-time Wimbledon champion in 1993, 94 and 95, winner of Australia and the Masters ... and world number one since the beginning of 93, exchanging the position sporadically with Andre Agassi and Thomas Muster, the only thing missing was Roland Garros. What separated him from the greats of all time, capable of winning on any type of surface.

Before the tournament became an obsession, as Wimbledon became for Ivan Lendl in the 80s, the American decided that 1996 was going to be his year: he went unprepared to Australia, where he fell in third round and kept number one ATP with triumphs in US minor tournaments, its private preserve. When spring came, instead of girdling in Monte Carlo, Rome or Hamburg, he decided to rest and train. No three-four-hour marathons against the Rivers, Bruguera, Albert Costa and company. Mentalization and rest.

The fact that he won only two tournaments on that surface throughout his career speaks of Sampras' difficult relationship with clay: Rome, in 1994; Atlanta, in 1998. Two out of a total of sixty-four, that's it.

Even so, his dominance in the circuit was such that no one could doubt that the methodical Pete would end up dropping a Roland Garros if only for consistency. His game of service, right and net was slowed in clay, but what was missing above all was the ability to suffer, patience not to try to finish the point at first and faith in his own ability to endure and trace a match to five sets in the middle of June with 35 degrees in the Philippe Chatrier.

If he wanted suffering, 1996 was going to give him double ration from the beginning. Despite starting as number one seed, his draw was a butcher shop. In the first round, a veteran like Magnus Gustafsson, of those who adapt to all surfaces and who already forced the first tie-break. In second, the two-time champion, Sergi Bruguera, the man who had defeated him in the quarterfinals of 1993 on the way to his first Roland Garros.

Bruguera was going through one of his injury streaks but he was still Bruguera. In addition to being a champion in 1993 and 1994, he had been a semifinalist in 1995, falling to Michael Chang. In Paris it was an eminence. Facing him in the second round seemed like a curse and more when, despite starting winning the first two sets comfortably, the American saw Sergi go back to put two equal and take the game to fifth. If Sampras had decided to rest to keep strength, it had to be seen at that time ... and it was seen: 6-3 for the world number one before an exhausted Bruguera.

It was one of those triumphs that give morals: tight, fought and against a ground specialist. The third round brought him neither more nor less than Todd Martin, another SUV far from his best form but on the ground he defended himself with more solvency than Pete. The duel went again beyond three hours, almost four. Martin won the first set, Sampras the next two, Todd the fourth ... and the fifth, this time 6-2, went to the one in Washington DC, who slipped like that in the round of 16 for the fourth time in his career, after the quarters that will reach in 1992, 93 and 94.

His rival in that round would be Scott Draper, finally a break: after three sets, Sampras reached the quarterfinals, only three games of glory.

The second week of Roland Garros is exhausting. Hours accumulated under the sun and dust, a mental fatigue that competes with the physical ... and the certainty that only the best, the most resistant have got there, that is, after all, you have the worst. Sampras had neither more nor less than Jim Courier, champion in 1991 and 1992, finalist against Bruguera in 1993, also former world number one and a huge fighter, without Pete's class, but with an amazing tenacity. Courier, number seven in the world at the time, appeared as the great rival. The rest of the picture had been shivering: Pioline, Karbacher, Stich, Rosset, Krajicek ... only young Kafelnikov was in the top 10 and his mental endurance was not exactly enviable.

Sampras faced the duel against Courier as if it were a final, too tense: the first set was taken by the redhead in the tie-break, the second even easier: 4-6. Courier attacked with his right on the reverse of Sampras, the unpredictable reverse of Sampras, and knew how to read his service fluently, always keeping the ball in play. Pete was in a mess of the good ones: tracing two sets on clay is hell. Doing it before Courier, a heroic, so it was little by little: the third set took him 6-4. The fourth set, quiet, loose, focused, willing to suffer, 6-4 again. For the third time in what we had in the championship, Sampras reached the fifth set ... and for the third time he won. Can you guess the score? 6-4.

The calm man had won in a calm but impressive way. Pylon hammer, Sampras achieved the most important victory of his career on clay and came for the first time to the semifinals. Two games to get the Grand Slam in his career, something only within reach by then of Laver, Emerson, Perry and Budge! The tactic of resting in April and May had had an effect, that was clear, but how much gasoline was left in the tank to a man accustomed to the points lasting five seconds? Yevgeni Kafelnikov, 22, a semifinalist in the previous edition, was waiting for him in the semifinals. On the other hand, Michael Stich and Marc Rosset played a finalist place.

The easiest thing was already done: Bruguera, Martin, Courier ... the real champions. Next to him, an eccentric Russian, a fast track specialist and the unpredictable Rosset, champion of the Barcelona Olympic Games on clay, but unable to achieve good results in large tournaments. If Sampras beat Kafelnikov, the title was his, and it was undoubtedly the favorite.

It could not be.

Sampras fought like a soap during the first set, which was decided in the tie-break. That was his swan song. Visibly injured, with tears in the face of pain, exhausted by the tension of the two weeks, the American took a rosco in the second set and could barely add two games in the third. At least he had the courage not to withdraw and not dirty the victory of the Russian, which, as expected, won the final Michael Stich, not without having to fight, of course (7-6, 7-5, 7-6).

Sampras' career was joined by many victories, totaling almost 300 weeks as world number one, 14 Grand Slams, 5 Masters and several Davis Cups. He retired big time, with 31 years old, defeating his nemesis, Andre Agassi, in the final of the US Open 2002. However, he never approached Roland Garros again. In fact, he did not even beat the third round of any of the big clay tournaments: neither in Monte Carlo, nor in Rome, nor in Hamburg, nor, of course, in Paris.

Pete, every year, as a grumbling schoolboy stood there because he knew it was his obligation, but without any hope: in 2000, he lost in the first round. In 2001, in second. In 2002, again in first. His legend may have an asterisk forever, but it was a bearable asterisk. Another two weeks with red shoes and sweat stuck to the body for nothing was something that just didn't fit into his plans.
 
Are today's players on PEDs? Or are they able to genuinely last this long? What makes them last longer given that the demand of the tour remains the same?
 
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I'm sure that winning the French Open would have meant the world to Pete Sampras.

But he didn't have a game that could make the transition to clay.
 
The common argument from Sampras fans is that if he didn't win something it's only because he didn't want to.

Surprising how similar these fans are to Nadal fans "Nadal only loses when he is injured". Maybe that's why they latched onto the Nadal bandwagon after Sampras was done.
 
Sampras just addressed the FO in an interview which was posted today:

“How much does it hurt not having won in Paris? In the end of my career it bothered me.
Conditions were tough for me. But most of all, it was a mental thing. I always had an enormous pressure there. Wimbledon or US Open were like my home. I headed into the court and I felt light. In Paris, I was blocked and results could be seen. It can be very hot and dry in Paris. So balls bounce high.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.**...loss-to-roger-federer-was-the-end-of-an-era-/

So much for his mentality. I mean, I love Sampras, have nothing against HIM. But his fanboys can be so irritating. I do understand, as well, their disappointment that the recency effect of Big Four is casting a shroud over the achievements of yesteryear greats but Fed himself would be the last person to diss Sampras so their ire is misplaced. In fact, I don't get why they so readily jump on the Nadal bandwagon seeing as he once called Sampras boring. Both Fed and Nole like Sampras on the other hand.
 
But it wasn't just motivation. He had a blood condition too that prevented him to play longer matches especially on much slower surfaces. We saw him struggle against Corretja at the USO. Even against Agassi at the AO semi, he simply gave up in the final set. Back in those days, the commentators even talked about how Sampras was never going to be good enough to battle a 5 setter. In other words, he would have not performed as well in GSs. This is even after he won a couple of slams already. But he proved them wrong.

The priorities were different for Sampras but that doesn't mean I am implying he would have been as great as he was on hard and grass, but saying, he might have performed better if those two elements weren't there together with the extreme surface condition to very slow to very fast. These things mattered.

So I take it then Federer is also not good enough on clay given that he has only ONE RG in his entire long career. Now don't throw nonsense excuses like 'oh but Nadal is clay goat'. If Federer is goat, then he should have been able to beat Nadal at RG at least one time. If the so called clay goat Nadal is able to beat grass goat Federer at Wimbledon final then I don't see why Federer shouldn't be able to do the same. The fact remains, my friend.

Yeah, no. Serve volleyers per se didn't do well at RG throughout that decade. Michael Stich playing like a dream in 96 still got straight setted by Kafelnikov. Let me repeat that, Kafelnikov. Not even one of the best in the decade on clay. Conditions were totally polarised back then and RG was a write off for the all courters. I watched back then, rooted for Sampras and I KNOW; I would have been absolutely delirious had he won RG. If you decided to adopt a personalised revisionist version of 90s tennis history, your prerogative.
 
I came across a thread in which several users claimed that Sampras "didn't have much interest" in winning FO. They even took this bizarre belief to draw the highly flawed conclusion that Sampras didn't win FO because he didn't give it enough of a priority.
One can believe whatever she or he wants. Worse is they spread fake news as if it is fact.
 
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The reasons why Fed is able to sustain this long on the tour is - he has no underlying health issues so he remains healthy; two, his servebot ability helped him last this long, Without his serve, which is still working, he retires back in 2012.

Yeah, sure, absolutely nothing to do with improving an entire groundstroke, huh. We can discuss the PED angle all day but the Big Three ARE more motivated than past champions. They don't have the stubbornness of Borg, Graf or Sampras. They are much more like Agassi, Connors or Navratilova. They will fight it out till the end and there's nothing ageists can do about it.
 
Sampras against Federer in:
Wimbledon
US Open
WTF

10 matches in each of these tournaments, who wins?
:unsure:

10 matches across a career or 10 peak for peak?

I think for best performances on grass Federer is up there with Sampras. But the drop in Federer's return stats in 2007 means he struggles with Sampras after that. To be rather complicated about this.

Peak for peak: 50/50
Prime for Prime: Sampras 60/40
Post prime: Federer stomps probably

On any HC I give Federer the edge, maybe 6/4 at the USO.

Indoors and specifically on carpet I think Pete wins peak for peak 6/4 times, possibly more.
 
So much for his mentality. I mean, I love Sampras, have nothing against HIM. But his fanboys can be so irritating. I do understand, as well, their disappointment that the recency effect of Big Four is casting a shroud over the achievements of yesteryear greats but Fed himself would be the last person to diss Sampras so their ire is misplaced. In fact, I don't get why they so readily jump on the Nadal bandwagon seeing as he once called Sampras boring. Both Fed and Nole like Sampras on the other hand.
Recency effect, homogenization, Vacuum Tours, cringeworthy media deification etc. have all made the big 4 seem as though they're way, way, better than past greats.
 
Recency effect, homogenization, Vacuum Tours, cringeworthy media deification etc. have all made the big 4 seem as though they're way, way, better than past greats.
Pete would probably win about as much as Murray has if he played in this era.
 
Nah. He was worth 1 French Open.
He really wasn't LMAO. It's hard to say he's even worth the 7 Wimbledon crowns he's garnered given he beat mugs like Washington and Pioline for half his titles there.
 
Didn't he hold a winning record over Fed too for a while there?
Sure did, but we all know Pete never would. Max 3 slams for him in this era. Heck that's probably being generous. Could end up as a Rajeev Ram for all we know. *shrugs*
 
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