Sampras or Becker FIRST serve?

[PETEhammer]

Obviously both are ATG serves, and for me, Pete's serve as a whole is clearly a better package because of the 2nd. But as a first serve, I'm curious as to whether Becker hit it bigger, and whether his percentages were higher than Pete's? I feel like his more stable shoulder might have lead to both more power and consistency. On the other hand, Pete's had better disguise and placement.

Which FIRST serve would you pick, and why?

 

[encylopedia]

Obviously both are ATG serves, and for me, Pete's serve as a whole is clearly a better package because of the 2nd. But as a first serve, I'm curious as to whether Becker hit it bigger, and whether his percentages were higher than Pete's? I feel like his more stable shoulder might have lead to both more power and consistency. On the other hand, Pete's had better disguise and placement.

Which FIRST serve would you pick, and why?

It is really not that close -relatively speaking. Sampras had better disguise, and on average hit more aces, had a higher average mph, and had a higher percentage in general. Some of that was due to strategic differences, but a lot was due to the accuracy and consistency of the Sampras serve allowing him to go for aces nearly all the time. All of this at a shorter height than Becker. Some might claim Sampras had more spin helping contribute to that consistency- but we have no actual data to back that up. Becker's biggest issue is that he had a tendency to pull down a bit on his flat serves putting them into the net - that in part was probably due to him trying to get farther into the court to serve and volley.

 

[PETEhammer]

It is really not that close -relatively speaking. Sampras had better disguise, and on average hit more aces, had a higher average mph, and had a higher percentage in general. Some of that was due to strategic differences, but a lot was due to the accuracy and consistency of the Sampras serve allowing him to go for aces nearly all the time. All of this at a shorter height than Becker. Some might claim Sampras had more spin helping contribute to that consistency- but we have no actual data to back that up. Becker's biggest issue is that he had a tendency to pull down a bit on his flat serves putting them into the net - that in part was probably due to him trying to get farther into the court to serve and volley.

Was Becker's flat one out wide on the ad side bigger than Pete's?

 

[tonylg]

Was Becker's flat one out wide on the ad side bigger than Pete's?

It was .. and so was his kicker.

But Sampras always seemed to come up with the serve he needed, when he needed it. Always.

Not a bad word for the Becker serve, Sampras is just the goat.

 

[encylopedia]

Was Becker's flat one out wide on the ad side bigger than Pete's?

No. When Becker was actually really going after the flat serve, their speeds were actually very comparable to all parts of the court. You would even see on surfaces like Wimbledon looking at the breakdown of speed and placement. You could even see both their speeds increase -roughly in tandem as the radar readings got better....but Sampras was bringing that speed in almost every match (save clay), whereas with Becker it was very up and down....

 

[PETEhammer]

No. When Becker was actually really going after the flat serve, their speeds were actually very comparable to all parts of the court. You would even see on surfaces like Wimbledon looking at the breakdown of speed and placement. You could even see both their speeds increase -roughly in tandem as the radar readings got better....but Sampras was bringing that speed in almost every match (save clay), whereas with Becker it was very up and down....

Interesting. It seems to me that Pete's serve was more "wrist" powered, in that the uniqueness of it came from his wrist snap, sort of like how Fed's backhand works. I feel like though that would lead to less consistency than a serve driven by massive shoulder movement, similar to how say Wawrinka's backhand is so much more stable than Fed's.

But you're saying that Pete's was not only equally big, but more consistent and reliable than Boris?

 

[PETEhammer]

It was .. and so was his kicker.

But Sampras always seemed to come up with the serve he needed, when he needed it. Always.

Not a bad word for the Becker serve, Sampras is just the goat.

Agassi described Becker's serve as a weapon that the sport had never seen before, so it must clearly have been monstrous when on. I assumed it was actually bigger on average than Pete's, but maybe not. Of course Agassi was also the guy who said the strategy for returning Pete's serve was to close your eyes and hope there's a God.

Perspective.

 

[encylopedia]

Interesting. It seems to me that Pete's serve was more "wrist" powered, in that the uniqueness of it came from his wrist snap, sort of like how Fed's backhand works. I feel like though that would lead to less consistency than a serve driven by massive shoulder movement, similar to how say Wawrinka's backhand is so much more stable than Fed's.

But you're saying that Pete's was not only equally big, but more consistent and reliable than Boris?

That's probably an impression you get based on the fact that Sampras breaks off his serve at the elbow in such a pronounced manner. There really is not much of a quantifiable difference in the biomechanics of the wrist for the top players. In terms of shoulder movement, it's actually Sampras that has far more shoulder movement, both due to his very very closed stance, and the extremely pronounced vertical angles of his shoulder line. Again, the statistics clearly showed their highest serve speeds being very comparable. I have looked at a lot of match serve statistics, and serve breakdowns of both.

 

[encylopedia]

Agassi described Becker's serve as a weapon that the sport had never seen before, so it must clearly have been monstrous when on. I assumed it was actually bigger on average than Pete's, but maybe not. Of course Agassi was also the guy who said the strategy for returning Pete's serve was to close your eyes and hope there's a God.

Perspective.

When did Agassi say that? Mcenroe said something very similar. Conversely, in 1990 when Agassi was asked if Becker's serve was the biggest in the sport he replied quickly "absolutely not" - then prevaricated and suggest it might be Ivanisevic. Agassi did write in his (grain of salt) autobiography that the early Sampras (whom he thought would never make it on the tour) had a decent serve with some power, but not a "becker serve" - though Sampras in his early years, had only a good serve - not the great one it started to become in 1989. Sampras himself talks about how his serve was only OK when he started to make the pro transition, but kept getting better and better and then one day had just become the big weapon we think of.

 

[encylopedia]

On the subject of consistency, and accuracy, what's always impressed me about Sampras it the accuracy he gets from that closed stance - most people can't even do it well, let alone come around and hit the corners and lines. One would think the much less extreme becker motion would help there, but obviously, Sampras (and Mac before him) didn't seem to have any issue with placement....

 

[PETEhammer]

That's probably an impression you get based on the fact that Sampras breaks off his serve at the elbow in such a pronounced manner. There really is not much of a quantifiable difference in the biomechanics of the wrist for the top players. In terms of shoulder movement, it's actually Sampras that has far more shoulder movement, both due to his very very closed stance, and the extremely pronounced vertical angles of his shoulder line. Again, the statistics clearly showed their highest serve speeds being very comparable. I have looked at a lot of match serve statistics, and serve breakdowns of both.

I didn't articulate what I meant quite fully. I know Pete's shoulder moved much more, but I guess Boris's maybe looked more stable throughout? Again, my best comparison is like Fed's backhand versus someone like Edberg with the massive shoulder turn and straighter arm...I guess more stable motion with less moving pieces? I assumed that lead to more consistency and power. I guess not.

 

[PETEhammer]

On the subject of consistency, and accuracy, what's always impressed me about Sampras it the accuracy he gets from that closed stance - most people can't even do it well, let alone come around and hit the corners and lines. One would think the much less extreme becker motion would help there, but obviously, Sampras (and Mac before him) didn't seem to have any issue with placement....

Your comment made me think of this:

 

[fundrazer]

Neither. Goran , Krajicek, or Pim Pim.

 

[PETEhammer]

Neither. Goran , Krajicek, or Pim Pim.

For power/pure destruction when on, yes. But I feel like Pete's serve was more consistent, more disguised, more precise, and had much more versatile making it a consistently dangerous weapon.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I would say Becker's was a classically perfect kinda pinpoint serve motion with immense leg drive and a substantial leap as well while Sampras' was the first great modern platform serve (and to date one of the greatest as well). Maybe the difference in consistency was simply due to the fact that Becker had to really throw himself into the serve while Sampras generated more effortless power. It's like RHS. The oldies think RHS makes shots complicated and prefer simple groundies but with sufficient repetition the modern forehand produces enough topspin to give plenty of margin to the player. Sampras was likewise probably relying on really whipping through the serve to produce spin and to that effect also strung up his racquet really tight.

 

[Olli Jokinen]

I would say Becker's was a classically perfect kinda pinpoint serve motion with immense leg drive and a substantial leap as well while Sampras' was the first great modern platform serve (and to date one of the greatest as well). Maybe the difference in consistency was simply due to the fact that Becker had to really throw himself into the serve while Sampras generated more effortless power. It's like RHS. The oldies think RHS makes shots complicated and prefer simple groundies but with sufficient repetition the modern forehand produces enough topspin to give plenty of margin to the player. Sampras was likewise probably relying on really whipping through the serve to produce spin and to that effect also strung up his racquet really tight.

What's RHS?

 

[d-quik]

What's RHS?

RacquetHeadSpeed

 

[recreationalplayer]

It is really not that close -relatively speaking. Sampras had better disguise, and on average hit more aces, had a higher average mph, and had a higher percentage in general. Some of that was due to strategic differences, but a lot was due to the accuracy and consistency of the Sampras serve allowing him to go for aces nearly all the time. All of this at a shorter height than Becker. Some might claim Sampras had more spin helping contribute to that consistency- but we have no actual data to back that up. Becker's biggest issue is that he had a tendency to pull down a bit on his flat serves putting them into the net - that in part was probably due to him trying to get farther into the court to serve and volley.

well said - compared to Sampras (and everyone else) Becker's serve was blunt force trauma, and darn good but I'd take Pete's any day.

 

[NedStark]

For power/pure destruction when on, yes. But I feel like Pete's serve was more consistent, more disguised, more precise, and had much more versatile making it a consistently dangerous weapon.

Pete serve was not exactly better than Goran/Krajicek serves in terms of placement and disguise, due to the latter's laser quick serving style. More consistent than Goran, though.

 

[PETEhammer]

Pete serve was not exactly better than Goran/Krajicek serves in terms of placement and disguise, due to the latter's laser quick serving style. More consistent than Goran, though.

You think Richard's serve compared to Pete's on the level of placement too?

And thanks Ned. The North Remembers.

 

[Deleted member 22147]

Sampras showed a better serve than Becker, overall. Becker had an excellent serve, but Sampras is in that category with Ivanisevic and Krajicek - and maybe Philippoussis. Isner and Karlovic are the top tier. The first reason that comes to me as to why Sampras had a better serve than Becker is because of the disguise and unpredictability of the serve. Did anybody have a better disguised, unpredictable serve than Sampras? That can make the difference when the best face the best and Sampras was better than just about anyone at besting his rivals in big matches.

Sampras has the best serve of a guy of that height. People these days say Federer, but Sampras definitely had a better serve than him.

 

[encylopedia]

Pete serve was not exactly better than Goran/Krajicek serves in terms of placement and disguise, due to the latter's laser quick serving style. More consistent than Goran, though.

Goran's first serve was undoubtedly better. More speed, also good disguise. The quick motion didn't hurt, and the other thing was that he was a Lefty on top of all of that. Pete himself said that Goran's first serve was the biggest weapon in the game.

The only thing you could argue though is that Goran's first serve (like the rest of his game) could fold under pressure - although his serve USUALLY held up. Pete? Most unflappable player ever. The only guy I saw that could double fault twice in a game (though very rare) be down breakpoint, miss his first serve, and not for a second did you think: will he double fault? You were shocked if he did.

 

[encylopedia]

Your comment made me think of this:

....and this picture is to the deuce court...

 

[NedStark]

You think Richard's serve compared to Pete's on the level of placement too?

And thanks Ned. The North Remembers.

Yeah, Krajicek also hit serves at corners with great precision, especially when serving down the T.

Sampras was better because he was better in other aspects, but not the serve.

 

[Graf1stClass]

Sampras showed a better serve than Becker, overall. Becker had an excellent serve, but Sampras is in that category with Ivanisevic and Krajicek - and maybe Philippoussis. Isner and Karlovic are the top tier. The first reason that comes to me as to why Sampras had a better serve than Becker is because of the disguise and unpredictability of the serve. Did anybody have a better disguised, unpredictable serve than Sampras? That can make the difference when the best face the best and Sampras was better than just about anyone at besting his rivals in big matches.

Sampras has the best serve of a guy of that height. People these days say Federer, but Sampras definitely had a better serve than him.

I agree with this and along with what encyclopedia said, that his second serve was most certainly the most reliable second serve we've ever seen in tennis. I don't know how he did it.

 

[Nostradamus]

Obviously both are ATG serves, and for me, Pete's serve as a whole is clearly a better package because of the 2nd. But as a first serve, I'm curious as to whether Becker hit it bigger, and whether his percentages were higher than Pete's? I feel like his more stable shoulder might have lead to both more power and consistency. On the other hand, Pete's had better disguise and placement.

Which FIRST serve would you pick, and why?

Sampras had the best serve ever so this is easy question

 

[mental midget]

Goran's first serve was undoubtedly better. More speed, also good disguise. The quick motion didn't hurt, and the other thing was that he was a Lefty on top of all of that. Pete himself said that Goran's first serve was the biggest weapon in the game.

The only thing you could argue though is that Goran's first serve (like the rest of his game) could fold under pressure - although his serve USUALLY held up. Pete? Most unflappable player ever. The only guy I saw that could double fault twice in a game (though very rare) be down breakpoint, miss his first serve, and not for a second did you think: will he double fault? You were shocked if he did.

no doubt. goran's first serve was the closest thing to the karlovic/isner level. it was the combination of speed, sure, but more about the angles--the way he carved the ball, man he could hit aces where the returner was just like, 10 feet away from even making contact with the ball.

funny story, i was in south africa for work and took a lesson with the pro at the hotel i was staying in--a former tour player and knew goran. we were messing with my serve and he said how goran always talked about 'carving' the ball, even on a flat bomb down the middle. it was one of the tips that's really stayed with me and definitely improved my delivery...and when you watch goran serve you can totally see what he's talking about.